I'm gonna agree with crm, thats not a new video. I'd thought he'd made a second one after seeing this is a new post.same here in fact I distinctively remember watching that video and feeling the same I do about it now really.
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.
People want refunds for trivial reasons. You can see tis kinf of threads always in games, mostly early access. "This wasn't the game you have promised, giff me refund. Giff me now!"pretty much spot on although demos do cost money to make which is enougher reason that the refund system is good because it allows people to test the game out without the developer having to go to the effort of making a demo to it and really I think being able to test the game it self out is really better than seeing reviews or talking to people on forums since you may love the idea of something but hate the reality of it
Like crazyroosterman said, I think everyone is affected by the refund system. however, I don't hink that the losses will have a big impact. If you rely on your game on "impulsive buys", then you probably made something wrong with your game anyway. What I mean with this is, if developers except that people buy their game just because they currently have money and th eame is cheap, then they rely not on people who buy their game for the game itself. They failed with the product.
People who like the game, the target audience you should have and should keep, will keep the game. And I think the refund system is a nice idea if you just want to see if you like the game or not. If developers don't liek that, then they should put up a free demo, so people can test it in other ways and don't have to rely on the refund system.
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.
that's pretty interesting and now that you mention I have been subject that type of psychology sometimes (not very often though I usually just use demos for the same thing I use the refund system for performance testing) does that count for something like a free standalone dlc that may as well be a demo? granted that's pretty non existent and the only thing I can think of that fits there is the expenderbro download able for bro force(requiring of course that you don't need the base game for it) because I was rather on the fence about it in till I played that downloable and I thought it was so sick I went and bought broforce the next day and put about 81 hours into over a long period of time.10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.
It's not that we don't care. In fact, I came into this bussiness expressly believing in demos and always providing them even when other developers did not. And making a demo is not hard for me to do. But I don't do it anymore. Why? It actually stalls people from buying the game.
A traditional buy cycle goes like this:
Scenario 1: Person A hear about the game and wants it. It is not on sale.
- They read some reviews, maybe watch a video or two, depending on their level of interest.
- They either wishlist the game or buy it, depending on how bad they want it.
- Derailment from demo: they either download the demo and don't play it right away, then forget to buy or wishlist it; or it remains a "this seems good but I need to try the demo first but I don't have time" sort of infinite loop and they never get around to buying.
Scenario 2: Person B hears about the game when it is on sale.
- They quickly scan some reviews, and see if this is something they want to plop down X money for.
- If it's something they are really on the fence about, they are most likely to either just let is pass, or want a really quick video impression.
- They either buy it, skip it, or if it just still seems to expensive then they wishlist it.
- Derailment from demo: they feel like it would be irresponsible of them to buy the game without trying the demo first, but that takes time and there are a variety of games they are interested in, so the likelihood of a skip is much higher.
At this point in PC gaming, demos have been widely shown to have a detrimental effect on game sales, particularly when put right next to the buy and wishlist buttons on steam. If someone is really looking for a demo and wants to come to our site to find one, then that's usually a case where they're motivated enough that I have no trouble giving them a demo. So a number of our games have demos that are not on steam, but instead are buried on our site a bit. It's not that we have something to hide, but the simple psychology of such a glutted marketplace creates an unfortunate situation in the majority of cases.
In the end, if someone is going to buy a game of ours for whatever price, and then they find out they can't run it for some reason, I'm super glad they can get a refund. Nothing could be more valid in my eyes. I'm super glad that system is there. Obviously there are problems with short games and so on, though.
My 2 cents. ;)
That is realllly interesting about the psychology bit of buying demos.yes I do like his channel he's knowledgeable and he always does his best to be honest which I appreciate even in the few accusations that he's full of crap he's also what introduced me to arcen and this forum so I have to thank for that as well
It's definitely true that modern gamers are just inundated with games anymore. I know that's certainly the case for me. At this point I probably divide my time between about 8-9 games, all which I love, but none which I devote any overwhelming amount of time to (as I used to).
Though I personally would definitely play the demo of a game I was really interested in, I think I have a bit longer attention span than the average gamer, in a world where patience seems to be considered less and less virtuous. I can certainly see how people who were torn between several different games and/or had a lot less free time than I did wouldn't really have the opportunity to try the demo, leading to an infinite feedback loop, as you said, of just never buying the damn game.
Sorry about saying the TB video was made "recently". It just showed up in my news feed for the first time today. Though granted, I did not expect so many of you to have already seen it. I knew this forum had some Cynical Brit fans, which is why I made the discussion to begin with, but I didn't know there were that many fans. So yeah, apologies if we've had this discussion before and I missed it.
It's a really sad state of affairs that in our current society, game designers have to compete against each other at all. Unfortunately it leads to a lot of really good developers and titles getting completely overlooked or never even seeing the light of day due to lack of interest and/or funding. That's just one of the pitfalls of Capitalism though, there's nothing much you can do about it. I'd like to think that in an ideal utopian society everyone could pursue their dreams and it wouldn't be motivated by such frivolous things as attempting to grab the attention span of masses of nincompoops, but there it is heh.
It just feels like demos is a courtecy so one doesn't have to buy things sight unseen.
That one has been posted in this forum before, but that's a great video - applying to so many situations. I love DarkMatter, his sense of humor is one of a kind.It just feels like demos is a courtecy so one doesn't have to buy things sight unseen.
This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-D8Mf9DdQI) was a poke at religion, but it applies to games as well.
Yeah, I've been super conservative with buying games lately. I also haven't been playing many, which contributes to the problem, of course. But yeah, if I had time to sink into something, I'd probably hit up Dwarf Fortress again.1 personally I prefer to be conservative my self as well mainly because I prefer to buy a game when I want to play it there and then that and well my interests tend to be a bit tad random but I have played just about all of the games in my library even if not for much time
For multiplayer, I really want a cooperative (maaaybe team based) shooter of some sort, one without any "level" or "loot" mechanics. The whole idea of play duration making you Just Better than other people is dumb.
(By the way "pop" is not a genre, or shouldn't be. It's literally short for "popular" which means that "pop music" would be whatever genre is currently popular).
Yeah, I've been super conservative with buying games lately. I also haven't been playing many, which contributes to the problem, of course. But yeah, if I had time to sink into something, I'd probably hit up Dwarf Fortress again.I suppose this is true, though I don't think anybody was calling mainstream rock "pop" in the 80s. That's much more of a recent term as far as I can tell, and has really only been used to describe a specific kind of music as long as it's been around. Hence why I've lumped it in with hip hop and rap.
For multiplayer, I really want a cooperative (maaaybe team based) shooter of some sort, one without any "level" or "loot" mechanics. The whole idea of play duration making you Just Better than other people is dumb.
(By the way "pop" is not a genre, or shouldn't be. It's literally short for "popular" which means that "pop music" would be whatever genre is currently popular).
I suppose this is true, though I don't think anybody was calling mainstream rock "pop" in the 80s. That's much more of a recent term as far as I can tell, and has really only been used to describe a specific kind of music as long as it's been around. Hence why I've lumped it in with hip hop and rap.
Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern form in the Western world during the 1950s and 1960s, deriving from rock and roll.
Modern pop music:
::)
The topics mainly appear to be about sex, the "ho's and g's", and humble bragging about being rich and famous.
I'll pass.
What did you think about the new Star Wars movie?
I was actually surprised at just how similar the plot line paralleled A New Hope.
I was even more surprised that I found myself enjoying it even though this was the case. Maybe that's just proof of how desperate people had become to have that genuine Star Wars experience the prequels had deprived us of.I was also very surprised they killed off Harrison Ford. But after reading about it, it made sense. I think he may have potentially stolen the limelight as a character and prevented the trilogy from becoming the legacy of its own making.
By the way, what did you also think of Kylo Ren? That seemed to be one area which everyone was conflicted about. Personally I really liked him.
I did how ever dig that character and just how pathetic he was much more interesting than anybody else in that film really I found the other new characters really quite forgettable really.What did you think about the new Star Wars movie?
I was actually surprised at just how similar the plot line paralleled A New Hope.
I was even more surprised that I found myself enjoying it even though this was the case. Maybe that's just proof of how desperate people had become to have that genuine Star Wars experience the prequels had deprived us of.I was also very surprised they killed off Harrison Ford. But after reading about it, it made sense. I think he may have potentially stolen the limelight as a character and prevented the trilogy from becoming the legacy of its own making.
By the way, what did you also think of Kylo Ren? That seemed to be one area which everyone was conflicted about. Personally I really liked him.
Similar? It's almost line for line the same exact plot. As for Kylo, I think he's a credible character but pretty lame as a villian. I mean, an insecure emo kid trying to fill his idols' boots? Eeeeeh no. Contrary to most people though I did like his saber. It makes perfect sense from an in-universe standpoint and fits the character perfectly. Anyone insecure and compensating for his lack of self confidence WOULD make a saber that is so ludicrously overpowered that it's struggling to keep a coherent blade (hence the loud noise, serrated/irregular blade and plasma vents/quillons).
There were a lot of expectations on that film from a lot of people with a lot of different histories with the franchise. There was no way it was going to please everybody. I'm not nominating it for movie of the year, but I think it did a really good job and was enjoyable. VIII has to be much more original, though.I definitely think they did a stellar job. It looked the part and it FELT the part. It was Star Wars, alright. No matter the nitpicks, it was still a really good attempt. Like you, I hope VIII is a more original story.
also an interesting thing came to me a while ago has anybody else here realised that c 3p0 and r2 d2 are the longest surviving characters in the series? in canonical time line order they've been there since the very beginning.C3PO has been through at least two mindwipes I think though, so even though his personality seems similar, he's actually "died" twice. R2D2 though is one old as heck droid, and it doesn't quite make sense that he's still being used. Considering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.
Considering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.Ah, but you're comparing the SW Universe to our universe. It's a little different.
There were a lot of expectations on that film from a lot of people with a lot of different histories with the franchise. There was no way it was going to please everybody. I'm not nominating it for movie of the year, but I think it did a really good job and was enjoyable. VIII has to be much more original, though.true true I've never really taken the series seriously personally although I find the out side lore very interesting and is more of the grey I like I'm glad I wasn't hyped for the film all things considered if I had been I probably would have hated it
yea pretty much unless out side lore talks about the way technology works as a whole then id just take it as ,if it isn't broke don't fix it, kind of approach it may be that they simply were never able to find a way to improve on the design in the republic eraQuoteConsidering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.Ah, but you're comparing the SW Universe to our universe. It's a little different.
For example, in the Knights of the Old Republic game that literally takes place 4,000 years before the events of the first movie, pretty much everything is still the same. Lightsabers are around, all the technology and starships seem about the same. So if we're to take that at face value, that's 4k years with little to no technological advances at all. That game was hailed as a masterpiece.
Also, remember that the people in the Star Wars universe are not human. At least, they didn't come from our species, and thus may have significantly different characteristics.
Its not like SW lore works anyway, they hid many, many dozens of books worth of background behind the curtain of 'Legends canon' instead of sorting out a feasible location for Ep. 7 and selectively un-cannoning things as needed.yea there is a good deal that's unexplained in that film due to it being 1 a arbitrary trilogy and 2 a film if it was a book they could have gone away from what was happening to explain what is were and why or better yet before the story properly starts with a map of the universe and various notes on things one of the reasons I prefer books for world building personally
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.fine by me if books are released to explain the things that don't make sense in that film even better id be more than happy to read those.
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.
I understand (I've understand that for a good long while) but I at least like to over analyse universes like that.I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.
As for what you said about the lore, Wingflier, I agree in part. But you don't really watch Star Wars for science that holds together. It's a space opera, plain and simple. It's not meant to make sense. It's made to be epic and entertaining. (See parsec)
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.
I agree with this. The idea that they would go through EVERY SINGLE LINE of hundreds of books, cartoons, and other 3rd person Star Wars lore just to make it all fit is... Quite frankly ridiculous. And anybody who expected that a bit moronic. Hell, George Lucas couldn't even make his prequels fit in with the canon of the originals. There were so many things that blatantly did not fit into the story. Like how Leia says she remembered her mother from when she was young but in the prequels Padme died in childbirth *facepalm*. Plenty of things like that, and George Lucas WROTE the original scripts. So just imagine trying to do that with all the 3rd party canon...I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.
As for what you said about the lore, Wingflier, I agree in part. But you don't really watch Star Wars for science that holds together. It's a space opera, plain and simple. It's not meant to make sense. It's made to be epic and entertaining. (See parsec)
also, just happend in our StarWars RPG.
I'm playing a Nosaurian, funny little lizard people as character. Intense situation. Spaceship about to crash. Gotta do some emergency repairs.
Chukka (my character) gets instructions: QUICK, JUST FUSE THE RED WIRES WITH THE BLUE ONES*
me: .... well.. that's gonna be a problem....I can't see a red or blue wire...
everyone else: WHY? Its clearly there!
me: ... you guys know that I'm colourblind, right?
(entire species is colourblind.)
leads to some funny things
"why is everyone scared when I light my lightsaber? I mean I'm not THAT scary looking..."
"... because it's RED."
"... what is red?"
TheyI think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly. I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff. Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.
Didn't they though? I don't remember the YV being mentioned in the movie. Were they?
There's also the added fact that 95% or more of all Star Wars fans haven't even read any of the other canon. So fitting that into the new movie would probably turn out as disastrous as expecting the audience of the new Warcraft film to know the backstory of the past 1,000 years of Azeroth, and the film critics scratching their heads thinking, "What the heck is going on here?" Disaster.Though if you've seen the Warcraft film you know that knowing the history of Azeroth is completely superflous as the movie does nothing to adhere to it whatsoever, except for a few concepts and names. Pretty much everything has been changed. Off the top of my head:
That's good to know. I haven't heard a lot of positive things but I'm certain I'll get around to seeing it at some point, so I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. In general movie critics and I sometimes don't jibe very well.do the Warcraft games have good writing to them? if so I might just go do some research because frankly from all I've seen the universe it self seems a bit uninspired really I get that building a universe as complicated and deep as you can find in books would be really hard considering that blizzard have to figure out excuses as to why the players do all the things they do but a bit of thinking out side the box would be nice particularly the races those are so generic (asides from some exceptions like the frost nights they seem vaguely interesting although I don't think they count as a race) that I don't even really care enough to look them up
For example I thought the recent Mad Max remake was freaking atrocious, even though it's reviews were glowing by just about everybody. The newest Mission Impossible movies are terrible and they just need to stop (though I liked the originals. I think 3 was my favorite.) I have no idea how anybody could get Hellboy (or the sequel) a good review, but they both scored pretty high.
The biggest critic blunder ever though in my opinion is probably Super 8. Holy moly Batman, that movie was bad. I guess it was supposed to be like ET for a new generation, but all it succeeded was being a disorganized trainwreck (no literally, there's a trainwreck scene in the movie that's so over the top it'll make you dizzy) with so many plot holes it could sink the Titanic...again.
Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.yea that's the impression I get when ever see gameplay of wow but on a slightly un related note I was in water stones today and noticed one of the hour heresy book was on sale but I think it was the 5th in the series however it reminded me I need to start that series particularly since the book in mark Lawrence's latest trilogy finally got here and i bought it today.
Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.
Night Elves are like the stupid character in a horror movie. Every decision they make creates an urge for the viewer to groan, but yet if they didn't make such stupid decisions, there would be no movie.there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound funEven if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.
How else can you do it?
Before World of Warcraft, they could make the story go however they wanted. Hell, you could be the one playing Arthas or Illidan (you were), so if they want to create a story in which the bad guys ultimately win, there's nothing stopping them from doing that.
But in MMO? Nope. *Insert random character here* is hero number 3,283,751 to defeat the undefeatable Gorgok the Mighty or whatever.
You can't make a good story out of that.
there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound funHoly crap yes.
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.
1 I think I may just passthere were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound funHoly crap yes.
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.
Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was the first one. One of the games that really helped kick off and develop the RTS genre. You could play as either orcs or humans, story playing out similarly but with a different ending (Blackrock Mountain conquered/Stormwind razed to the ground).
Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness was the followup. Big focus on story and characters here. It's expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" goes even more into the lore. There's a TON of lore in this one, most of which was sourced (and butchered) to make the movie.
Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos really kicked WoW off. This introduced a new continent, new races and fleshed out the story of the orcs A LOT. It also brought the Legion much more into focus and got the undeads (Scourge) off the ground. It also kind of touches on why the elves are such d*cks.
and then came WoW...and ruined almost everything. Vanilla WoW wasn't ALL bad, but it still did dumb stuff like shoehorn the night elves into the alliance and the undead (WHAT?) with the horde. They were originally meant to be separate factions entirely (hence why their capitals are so far removed from their allies), but were put in haphazardly with the horde/alliance because it was too complicated and gave too much player segregation to have more than 2 factions. Other than that, it stuck pretty close to the established lore.
1 I think I may just passAll three games are bog standard strategy games in the vague vein of Starcraft. It's the same company, after all. Generally well made and balanced and easy to get a good overlook on battles. I'm not a fan of individual unit skills (such as caster units with triggerable abilities). I prefer if my units have a brain and use whatever they want at the right time, but YMMV.
2 so what's the actual gameplay? same goes for 3 as well I'm sure id enjoy the world building and lore(despite the races seeming to be a bit generic) but not nearly as much as the broken empire series I really really like everything I Most Certainly Have read from mark Lawrence
as I mentioned before I got the latest book in the series and I'm utterly loving its easily the best of this current trilogy so far
3 wait so does that mean the undead are sentient? that's actually a little bit interesting
Lol the Undead as part of the Horde. That is comical now that I think about it. I could ALMOST see the Night Elves becoming part of the Alliance, at least temporarily simply because the Undead had become so powerful, and at that point they were threatening the entire world. But hell, at that rate the Horde could have even become part of the Alliance. I'm pretty sure they did ally with them at least temporarily in Warcraft 3 because the demon/undead combo plus the Lich King was so massively overpowering.that is pretty stupid and just seems like lazy ness from blizzard from what i know the horde are seem quite tribe like and the idea that they would even accept the horde into their faction just seems like nonsence to me i think i might do a bit of research into the lich king hes had my curiosity for a while
To think that the Undead would just OH, WE'RE HORDE NOW. Yeah, pretty dumb.