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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Wingflier on June 13, 2016, 10:25:10 AM

Title: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 13, 2016, 10:25:10 AM
I thought this was an interesting topic.

Total Biscuit recently made a ~30 minute video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUToCNq-iA) in which he responded to 2 indie developers who used "statistics" to show that their game sales had been significantly impacted (negatively) by the new Steam refund system. TB analyzes the data and give his opinion on whether these claims are legitimate.

He also receives emails from about half a dozen other notable indie game developers who chime in with their opinion of the new change as well.

Whether or not you watch the video, I'd love to hear your opinions.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 13, 2016, 11:02:18 AM
that video isn't new its several months old (: but regardless I think it probably resulted in less sales for developers in general By The Way, Good Sir I'm more than happy it exists for my purposes it means I can performance test a game regardless of weather it has a demo or not but though really I think that on a whole things like this make developers put more effort into their game(apart from triple aaas I doubt it affects them enough for them to care) so yea I think its a perfectly good change that they made
also not to forget it wasn't an actual new feature they were just fixing something that didn't work not that that really changes anything but something to keep in mind
although when it came to very big games (mechanically and so on) I doubt it really changed their sales really at all since 2 hours isn't nearly enough time to decide weather you'll like a game like stelaris(sorry I'm probably spelling it completely wrong) for instance if I were to go buy install and play it right now id be enjoying because of the novelty alone really.

edit not that I don't mind talking about it though but since then I haven't heard any indie developers saying that they were massively hurt or god forbid weren't able to make a profit because of the refund system so again I think its fine.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 13, 2016, 11:17:47 AM
I'm gonna agree with crm, thats not a new video. I'd thought he'd made a second one after seeing this is a new post.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 13, 2016, 11:21:01 AM
I watched it a while back, but haven't refreshed myself.  To my eye there hasn't been any significant impact from refunds.  We already had chargebacks anyhow, and the number of refunds+chargebacks has not increased substantially since the new system came into place.  Market saturation and discoverability issues have hurt us, but we aren't seeing some massive number of refund requests or something (in fact, very very few).
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 13, 2016, 11:32:47 AM
I'm gonna agree with crm, thats not a new video. I'd thought he'd made a second one after seeing this is a new post.
same here in fact I distinctively remember watching that video and feeling the same I do about it now really.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: TheVampire100 on June 13, 2016, 11:42:06 AM
People want refunds for trivial reasons. You can see tis kinf of threads always in games, mostly early access. "This wasn't the game you have promised, giff me refund. Giff me now!"
Like crazyroosterman said, I think everyone is affected by the refund system. however, I don't hink that the losses will have a big impact. If you rely on your game on "impulsive buys", then you probably made something wrong with your game anyway. What I mean with this is, if developers except that people buy their game just because they currently have money and th eame is cheap, then they rely not on people who buy their game for the game itself. They failed with the product.
People who like the game, the target audience you should have and should keep, will keep the game. And I think the refund system is a nice idea if you just want to see if you like the game or not. If developers don't liek that, then they should put up a free demo, so people can test it in other ways and don't have to rely on the refund system.
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 13, 2016, 11:50:49 AM
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.

It's not that we don't care.  In fact, I came into this bussiness expressly believing in demos and always providing them even when other developers did not.  And making a demo is not hard for me to do.  But I don't do it anymore.  Why?  It actually stalls people from buying the game.

A traditional buy cycle goes like this:

Scenario 1: Person A hear about the game and wants it.  It is not on sale.
- They read some reviews, maybe watch a video or two, depending on their level of interest.
- They either wishlist the game or buy it, depending on how bad they want it.
- Derailment from demo: they either download the demo and don't play it right away, then forget to buy or wishlist it; or it remains a "this seems good but I need to try the demo first but I don't have time" sort of infinite loop and they never get around to buying.

Scenario 2: Person B hears about the game when it is on sale.
- They quickly scan some reviews, and see if this is something they want to plop down X money for.
- If it's something they are really on the fence about, they are most likely to either just let is pass, or want a really quick video impression.
- They either buy it, skip it, or if it just still seems to expensive then they wishlist it.
- Derailment from demo: they feel like it would be irresponsible of them to buy the game without trying the demo first, but that takes time and there are a variety of games they are interested in, so the likelihood of a skip is much higher.

At this point in PC gaming, demos have been widely shown to have a detrimental effect on game sales, particularly when put right next to the buy and wishlist buttons on steam.  If someone is really looking for a demo and wants to come to our site to find one, then that's usually a case where they're motivated enough that I have no trouble giving them a demo.  So a number of our games have demos that are not on steam, but instead are buried on our site a bit.  It's not that we have something to hide, but the simple psychology of such a glutted marketplace creates an unfortunate situation in the majority of cases.

In the end, if someone is going to buy a game of ours for whatever price, and then they find out they can't run it for some reason, I'm super glad they can get a refund.  Nothing could be more valid in my eyes.  I'm super glad that system is there.  Obviously there are problems with short games and so on, though.

My 2 cents. ;)
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 13, 2016, 11:52:42 AM
People want refunds for trivial reasons. You can see tis kinf of threads always in games, mostly early access. "This wasn't the game you have promised, giff me refund. Giff me now!"
Like crazyroosterman said, I think everyone is affected by the refund system. however, I don't hink that the losses will have a big impact. If you rely on your game on "impulsive buys", then you probably made something wrong with your game anyway. What I mean with this is, if developers except that people buy their game just because they currently have money and th eame is cheap, then they rely not on people who buy their game for the game itself. They failed with the product.
People who like the game, the target audience you should have and should keep, will keep the game. And I think the refund system is a nice idea if you just want to see if you like the game or not. If developers don't liek that, then they should put up a free demo, so people can test it in other ways and don't have to rely on the refund system.
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.
pretty much spot on although demos do cost money to make which is enougher reason that the refund system is good because it allows people to test the game out without the developer having to go to the effort of making a demo to it and really I think being able to test the game it self out is really better than seeing reviews or talking to people on forums since you may love the idea of something but hate the reality of it
for instance the swindle a game I want to love (stealth based building looting game) but the controls felt like the absolute worst so I refunded it not that I need the money back but I want developers to feel they need to put effort into their games to get my money so its a matter principle for me.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 13, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
10-20 years ago it was normal, that video games hat a playable demow hen they were released. To promote them. Nowadays developers don't care anymore.

It's not that we don't care.  In fact, I came into this bussiness expressly believing in demos and always providing them even when other developers did not.  And making a demo is not hard for me to do.  But I don't do it anymore.  Why?  It actually stalls people from buying the game.

A traditional buy cycle goes like this:

Scenario 1: Person A hear about the game and wants it.  It is not on sale.
- They read some reviews, maybe watch a video or two, depending on their level of interest.
- They either wishlist the game or buy it, depending on how bad they want it.
- Derailment from demo: they either download the demo and don't play it right away, then forget to buy or wishlist it; or it remains a "this seems good but I need to try the demo first but I don't have time" sort of infinite loop and they never get around to buying.

Scenario 2: Person B hears about the game when it is on sale.
- They quickly scan some reviews, and see if this is something they want to plop down X money for.
- If it's something they are really on the fence about, they are most likely to either just let is pass, or want a really quick video impression.
- They either buy it, skip it, or if it just still seems to expensive then they wishlist it.
- Derailment from demo: they feel like it would be irresponsible of them to buy the game without trying the demo first, but that takes time and there are a variety of games they are interested in, so the likelihood of a skip is much higher.

At this point in PC gaming, demos have been widely shown to have a detrimental effect on game sales, particularly when put right next to the buy and wishlist buttons on steam.  If someone is really looking for a demo and wants to come to our site to find one, then that's usually a case where they're motivated enough that I have no trouble giving them a demo.  So a number of our games have demos that are not on steam, but instead are buried on our site a bit.  It's not that we have something to hide, but the simple psychology of such a glutted marketplace creates an unfortunate situation in the majority of cases.

In the end, if someone is going to buy a game of ours for whatever price, and then they find out they can't run it for some reason, I'm super glad they can get a refund.  Nothing could be more valid in my eyes.  I'm super glad that system is there.  Obviously there are problems with short games and so on, though.

My 2 cents. ;)
that's pretty interesting and now that you mention I have been subject that type of psychology sometimes (not very often though I usually just use demos for the same thing I use the refund system for performance testing) does that count for something like a free standalone dlc that may as well be a demo? granted that's pretty non existent and the only thing I can think of that fits there is the expenderbro  download able for bro force(requiring of course that you don't need the base game for it) because I was rather on the fence about it in till I played that downloable and I thought it was so sick I went and bought broforce the next day and put about 81 hours into over a long period of time.

edit I should mention though that that only exists because the developers had a licensee deal with the people making the next expendable movie that was coming out at the time
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 13, 2016, 01:24:49 PM
That is realllly interesting about the psychology bit of buying demos.

It's definitely true that modern gamers are just inundated with games anymore. I know that's certainly the case for me. At this point I probably divide my time between about 8-9 games, all which I love, but none which I devote any overwhelming amount of time to (as I used to).

Though I personally would definitely play the demo of a game I was really interested in, I think I have a bit longer attention span than the average gamer, in a world where patience seems to be considered less and less virtuous. I can certainly see how people who were torn between several different games and/or had a lot less free time than I did wouldn't really have the opportunity to try the demo, leading to an infinite feedback loop, as you said, of just never buying the damn game.

Sorry about saying the TB video was made "recently". It just showed up in my news feed for the first time today. Though granted, I did not expect so many of you to have already seen it. I knew this forum had some Cynical Brit fans, which is why I made the discussion to begin with, but I didn't know there were that many fans. So yeah, apologies if we've had this discussion before and I missed it.

It's a really sad state of affairs that in our current society, game designers have to compete against each other at all. Unfortunately it leads to a lot of really good developers and titles getting completely overlooked or never even seeing the light of day due to lack of interest and/or funding. That's just one of the pitfalls of Capitalism though, there's nothing much you can do about it. I'd like to think that in an ideal utopian society everyone could pursue their dreams and it wouldn't be motivated by such frivolous things as attempting to grab the attention span of masses of nincompoops, but there it is heh.

Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 13, 2016, 01:39:01 PM
...theres a news feed on youtube?
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 13, 2016, 03:50:53 PM
That is realllly interesting about the psychology bit of buying demos.

It's definitely true that modern gamers are just inundated with games anymore. I know that's certainly the case for me. At this point I probably divide my time between about 8-9 games, all which I love, but none which I devote any overwhelming amount of time to (as I used to).

Though I personally would definitely play the demo of a game I was really interested in, I think I have a bit longer attention span than the average gamer, in a world where patience seems to be considered less and less virtuous. I can certainly see how people who were torn between several different games and/or had a lot less free time than I did wouldn't really have the opportunity to try the demo, leading to an infinite feedback loop, as you said, of just never buying the damn game.

Sorry about saying the TB video was made "recently". It just showed up in my news feed for the first time today. Though granted, I did not expect so many of you to have already seen it. I knew this forum had some Cynical Brit fans, which is why I made the discussion to begin with, but I didn't know there were that many fans. So yeah, apologies if we've had this discussion before and I missed it.

It's a really sad state of affairs that in our current society, game designers have to compete against each other at all. Unfortunately it leads to a lot of really good developers and titles getting completely overlooked or never even seeing the light of day due to lack of interest and/or funding. That's just one of the pitfalls of Capitalism though, there's nothing much you can do about it. I'd like to think that in an ideal utopian society everyone could pursue their dreams and it wouldn't be motivated by such frivolous things as attempting to grab the attention span of masses of nincompoops, but there it is heh.
yes I do like his channel he's knowledgeable and he always does his best to be honest which I appreciate even in the few accusations that he's full of crap he's also what introduced me to arcen and this forum so I have to thank for that as well
how ever considering his disdain at having ,fans, and the unhealthy attitude that entails id you not call me a fan
btw on what you say about competitive ness...yes that definitely causes problems but at the same time we really kind of need that in a way for developers to innovate and not grow lazy(we do still have that problem of course but it would be far worse if they didn't have to compete with each other) although it would be nice if all developers simply did their own thing really.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 14, 2016, 01:59:57 AM
That's excessively depressing about demos, as it REALLY hurts me as a customer. I think demos have been a big boon for me to try a game and see if it has potential. That said, it's a double edged sword. If the game doesn't gel with me, I won't buy it...eh, I dunno. It just feels like demos is a courtecy so one doesn't have to buy things sight unseen. HOWEVER, we now also have a vastly different access to news and reviews compared to say 20-30 years ago. Back then, you basically had cover art and some marketing blurbs on a box to judge a game on.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 14, 2016, 02:28:12 AM
Actually, I think competitiveness does just the opposite. It makes developers lazier because they have to make games they think people are going to play, and in many ways that's the death of innovation. After the 50th DotA clone, it's been done to death. After Diablo 2 version 9001, there's no reason to keep playing RPGs. Sure, these games are lucrative, but they aren't original.

There are still companies doing unique things, but they struggle and often don't survive as they are in competition with everyone else. If people could just make the kinds of games they wanted to play, it would be a whole different world.

I do think demos are nice, but like Mana said, with a whole host of reviewer sites, videos and avenues, plus the Steam refund system, I suppose it's not as necessary as it once was.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 14, 2016, 09:39:59 AM
Agreed with you guys on pretty well all the points except one: I'm not sure that innovation is dying.  There are just more people doing the non-innovative stuff.  There were plenty of companies doing that already before, but now there are 100 derivative games for every 1 there used to be.  I think the cool thing is that there are now 2 or 3 innovative companies for every 1 there used to be.  There are also 3 or 4 customers for every 1 there used to be, and innovation is more accepted.

The trouble is that those 1000 derivative games are burying the 30 innovative ones, and making it really hard to find them.  It's also spreading out the market when it comes to those extra customers.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 14, 2016, 11:11:20 AM
I agree with you. Companies like Arcen still exist, and they continue to produce innovation even while doing so is a struggle.

In some ways, the gaming world was the best when it was still a niche hobby like model aircraft building or stamp collecting that few people even cared about. Back then it hadn't been corporatized yet, so literally the only games being made were the ones people loved to make.

I remember playing the original Doom at LAN parties. Those were the days.

But yeah, in spite of that there are still people resisting what has become a heavily monetized mainstream culture of its own, along with all the negative elements that usually brings.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 14, 2016, 11:40:14 AM
I'm personally happier now with the state of the industry than I've ever been.  There's a lot of things I don't like, sure -- but coming along with that, the parts that I do like are in a golden age in my opinion.  There are SO many games that are good and that are getting produced only because of the way the industry is.  You have all this middleware that exists that enables the creation of games in a way that otherwise couldn't happen.  Etc.

I'm nostalgic for the old days as well, but it's easy to forget just how many crap shareware disks there were floating around that were absolute drivel.  It's not like that's new.  But now there's a lot more to choose from, and that has a lot of pros along with all the cons.  Plus just look what small teams can do now that was unimaginable before.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: TheVampire100 on June 14, 2016, 01:23:43 PM
I think because it's easier now to publish games on your own (there are so many crowdfunding sites to help you and so many online shops to present your product), the varity of games rises again.
In the times where publishers dominated the market and you had to fit your game their specific conditions, it was a sure thing that innovation dried out. It didn't stop, but it became less and less.
Now the indie game market booms because it was never easier tto publish your game on your own.
This is a double edged sword of course, because of the quantity you could make a really cool concept but no one notices it (Starward Rogue) because there are too many other games out there.
Most games on my steam library are actually indie games, I own only a small quantity of games from big publishers. And it's really cool to see what people try to do and what comes out, I'm amazed when suddenly a new game concept shows up behind a corner and I think "Holy shit, this is so brilliant, why has no one thought of this before?".
It's just amazing.
However, some indie games just cannot compete with some of the biggest games from big publishers. Final Fantasy X for example came out recently on Steam. Final Fantasy X, finally on PC. This was planned like 15 years ago when the game came out and now it is finally here. It's really cool to see an old classic back on the game, but it's one of these "main stream"/"infinite sequels" examples.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Draco18s on June 14, 2016, 01:26:01 PM
It just feels like demos is a courtecy so one doesn't have to buy things sight unseen.

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-D8Mf9DdQI) was a poke at religion, but it applies to games as well.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 14, 2016, 01:36:39 PM
I'm surprised you feel that way, but nostalgia being what it is, it is most likely the case that I'm just being overly sentimental.

Still, I'm sticking to my guns that once a culture becomes mainstream enough, it kind of corrupts everything around it. Even unintentionally, everyone gets sucked into it simply by the nature of being human, and being an inevitable part of a greater whole.

I think one of the most telling examples of this is music and the music industry. The 70s/80s and even the 90s were a golden age for many forms of rock/alternative rock, and whenever people born within the past 40 years talk about good rock, that's what they're usually referring to. But look at music today, it's become the pop and hip-hop culture. The mainstream music is just terrible. Absolutely terrible. Not like, "Oh I'm just getting to be an old fogey (at 29) and lamenting the good ol' days" terrible. Like objectively bad music that makes the top 100 charts anymore.

Unfortunately this has made all the other forms of music suffer as a result. Because music is generally just a representation of the culture of the time. Metallica is my favorite example. Back in the 80s they were making KILLER stuff. Even in the 90s their music was pretty good. At the turn of the century, with the rising popularity of rap and hip hop, and their attempt to emulate it, they have become terrible. Like getting booed off the stage by their fans terrible.

Anyway, the point is, I don't believe that games are made in a vacuum. For every good and innovative game there are 9 money grabs or rehashes of what's already been done. Even the developers attempting to be innovate (like Metallica) get dragged down with the mediocrity. It's one of the reasons I feel that AI War was so amazing and why its success will never be replicated. It was made in a time that games were still emerging as a mainstream hobby. It was a passion project from a different time, appealing to a much different group of people. I remember you saying that you were attempting to create a game you could play with your dad.

But the times have changed, and we've all been affected by the changes. We can't go back to the way things were before, for better or worse.

It just feels like demos is a courtecy so one doesn't have to buy things sight unseen.

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-D8Mf9DdQI) was a poke at religion, but it applies to games as well.
That one has been posted in this forum before, but that's a great video - applying to so many situations. I love DarkMatter, his sense of humor is one of a kind.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 14, 2016, 02:00:18 PM
I see a lot of what Chris mentions. There are innovative and genuinely fun games. They're just drowned in the absolute FLOOD of clones and other crap that litter the markets. I've found that I actually play my old DOS classics more than modern games these days. I'm just having more fun with them.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Draco18s on June 14, 2016, 02:42:40 PM
Yeah, I've been super conservative with buying games lately.  I also haven't been playing many, which contributes to the problem, of course.  But yeah, if I had time to sink into something, I'd probably hit up Dwarf Fortress again.

For multiplayer, I really want a cooperative (maaaybe team based) shooter of some sort, one without any "level" or "loot" mechanics.  The whole idea of play duration making you Just Better than other people is dumb.

(By the way "pop" is not a genre, or shouldn't be. It's literally short for "popular" which means that "pop music" would be whatever genre is currently popular).
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 14, 2016, 03:15:25 PM
Yeah, I've been super conservative with buying games lately.  I also haven't been playing many, which contributes to the problem, of course.  But yeah, if I had time to sink into something, I'd probably hit up Dwarf Fortress again.

For multiplayer, I really want a cooperative (maaaybe team based) shooter of some sort, one without any "level" or "loot" mechanics.  The whole idea of play duration making you Just Better than other people is dumb.

(By the way "pop" is not a genre, or shouldn't be. It's literally short for "popular" which means that "pop music" would be whatever genre is currently popular).
1 personally I prefer to be conservative my self as well mainly because I prefer to buy a game when I want to play it there and then that and well my interests tend to be a bit tad random but I have played just about all of the games in my library even  if not for much time

2 that's not terribly persifick cant help you there I'm afraid but yes it is dumb although I'm fine with it being purely cosmetics of course

3 really? that is quite odd considering how many people treat it like a genera.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 14, 2016, 03:24:51 PM
Yeah, I've been super conservative with buying games lately.  I also haven't been playing many, which contributes to the problem, of course.  But yeah, if I had time to sink into something, I'd probably hit up Dwarf Fortress again.

For multiplayer, I really want a cooperative (maaaybe team based) shooter of some sort, one without any "level" or "loot" mechanics.  The whole idea of play duration making you Just Better than other people is dumb.

(By the way "pop" is not a genre, or shouldn't be. It's literally short for "popular" which means that "pop music" would be whatever genre is currently popular).
I suppose this is true, though I don't think anybody was calling mainstream rock "pop" in the 80s. That's much more of a recent term as far as I can tell, and has really only been used to describe a specific kind of music as long as it's been around. Hence why I've lumped it in with hip hop and rap.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Draco18s on June 14, 2016, 03:37:58 PM
I suppose this is true, though I don't think anybody was calling mainstream rock "pop" in the 80s. That's much more of a recent term as far as I can tell, and has really only been used to describe a specific kind of music as long as it's been around. Hence why I've lumped it in with hip hop and rap.

Ironically...

Quote from: wikipedia
Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern form in the Western world during the 1950s and 1960s, deriving from rock and roll.

:P
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 14, 2016, 04:20:53 PM
Oh, so pop is actually a genre, not just a term to describe whatever is popular at the time.

Well anyway, that's what I was trying to say. When it went from 80s and 90s rock to "pop", that was the death of it.

"Pop" may have been around since the '50s but I don't think anybody considered the mainstream rock as pop until the last decade or two.

In the 80s pop artists were considered like Michael Jackson and Madonna according to that article, and even they were a lot easier to listen to than modern pop music.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Cyborg on June 14, 2016, 08:30:46 PM
Modern pop music:
 ::)

The topics mainly appear to be about sex, the "ho's and g's", and humble bragging about being rich and famous.

I'll pass.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 01:39:43 AM
Modern pop music:
 ::)

The topics mainly appear to be about sex, the "ho's and g's", and humble bragging about being rich and famous.

I'll pass.

Isn't this...basically all mainstream music today?
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 09:01:57 AM
I guess that music is a super good example of what I'm talking about.  I feel like it's something of a golden age for a variety of types of music, too.  I'll get to that in a second. 

Did Metallica go downhill?  Sure, absolutely.  But that arguably was because they were running out of ideas and trying something new -- why NOT try what was popular at the time?  Arguably their downfall was simply running out of ideas.

In terms of a golden age of music, I know that Audioslave got a lot of flack from various sources, but Chris Cornell is really someone I love the music of.  He's had some more recent stuff that is more hip-hoppy, and I've even liked that.  His various versions of "Wide Awake" are a direct address to GW Bush about 9/11 and Katrina; he doesn't sing about money and ho's.

Anyway, but that's just radio stuff.  The really good stuff you find online.  I've really gotten into The Queen Killing Kings (The Warden in particular, also Reinventing Language), The Hush Sound (man it's a deep roster of awesome stuff there, when it comes to their music; Medicine Man is really good, as are many others).  The versions on youtube really smoosh the sound and it doesn't sound nearly so good.

Then you get folks like Lindsay Sterling doing cool stuff.  And then a bunch of indie folks doing covers of game music, like Epic Game Music on youtube, or Chromelodeon (hit or miss, but they've done a few superb tracks), and a bunch of others I  can't think to mention offhand.

Okay, but what about the mainstream?  How about orchestral.  Movie music has never been more varied and interesting.  Hans Zimmer just keeps killing it, in my opinion.  Alexandre Desplat is a bit too much undertone for me, really, but he's done some amazing pieces such as The King's Speech (whole thing) and the song I'm blanking on from Deathly Hallows Pt 1 where Hermione makes her parents forget she existed.  Powerful stuff.

John Ottman has done some fun stuff off and on, and John Powell has shown a shocking range of talents in my opinion.  It's a far cry from James Horner, who -- while excellent -- kept doing the same thing over and over again in the 90s.  Danny Elfman has done some pretty decent stuff recently, and my absolute favorite standout of the last decade is Ilan Eshkeri.  He clearly poured everything he had into the Stardust soundtrack, and it's phenomenal; I'm not sure why he hasn't gotten more work of note since that.

In other words, I think it depends on what you like, and what you're willing to look for.  I've forgotten dozens artists that I think are absolutely tops in at least one album or song that are recent.  But you won't hear a single one of them on the radio.  If you just go by what's on the radio, then sure I can see why you'd think we're in a huge slump. ;)
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2016, 09:49:53 AM
Oh I actually agree with you about that. The Electronica age (Lindsey Sterling is an example) is now. House, trance, dubstep, drum and bass, etc. I know not everybody is in to that sort of music, but the sheer success and quality of it has spilled over into all the other genres. For example, even the modern orchestral scores for movies, which I agree are absolutely amazing, have a great deal of that electronic vibe to them anymore. The best example I can think of is the Hans Zimmer score for Batman: The Dark Knight. That was an absolutely beautiful mix of electronic rhythm with orchestral symphony. Actually, the soundtrack for the original Hunger Games movie by James Newton Howard was incredible if you've never heard it before. Video game music falls into this category as well, as often being electronic, symphonic, or a mix of them both (Pablo Vega).

However, I would also hesitate to call this genre mainstream, because you rarely hear them on the radio. You may have like dedicated electronica or orchestral music stations on SiriusXM, and you can certainly create those channels on Pandora if you so wish. However, it's an alternative form of music. It hasn't hit the mainstream yet in terms of popularity. I've mentioned this before, but much of what makes the modern electronica community so grand is all the bootlegging and remixes. Since the vast majority of it is either made underground or by independent musicians, there is almost no restrictions on the way these songs can be revamped, remixed, or combined into a totally new song whatsoever. That is an opportunity that would be unthinkable in the mainstream music industry, unless you specifically ask the artist permission, potentially purchase the rights to do such a thing, and probably even pay some royalties if it's successful. Nobody wants to do that. Often times the people creating these remixes and bootlegs are just kids using a fairly cheap music editing program. They can't pay for that. This is another example of how, when an industry becomes monetized, it ruins the quality of the stuff.

The orchestral genre is extremely resistant to becoming mainstream simply because of the cost and knowledge required to even produce that kind of music. Most people aren't going to have the money to hire an entire symphony of musicians to create their music, nor have the knowledge required to direct them, even if they did have the cash.

So I wouldn't call orchestral music "mainstream". It's used in movies, but it's been used in movies all the way back to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Hell, it was probably even used before then. That's just a specific example in my mind where the movie was intentionally made by the music. The style of using classical music to complement a form of art goes all the way back to the ballets and operas of times past.

You've actually inspired me to watch Stardust again just to hear the soundtrack.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 09:53:43 AM
Cheers. :)

And yeah, agreed on all that.  The point with them being mainstream is that people get exposed to them even if they aren't listening to them on the radio, which I think is great.  I'm definitely a fan of James Newton Howard; The Hunger Games had some excellent stuff in it.  The one vocal track for Are You Coming To The Hanging Tree (which I think was from movie two) was also really powerful.

There are a lot of bad movies that I get excited about just because they spawn good music.  I don't watch the movie, but I enjoy the music that results. ;)  Tron: Legacy was one of those in my opinion.  I was also very happy to have the music from the Star Wars prequels, even if everything else about them was a train wreck.  Indy 4 was surprisingly meh, though, in the music department.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2016, 10:15:06 AM
What did you think about the new Star Wars movie?

I was actually surprised at just how similar the plot line paralleled A New Hope.

I was even more surprised that I found myself enjoying it even though this was the case. Maybe that's just proof of how desperate people had become to have that genuine Star Wars experience the prequels had deprived us of.

I was also very surprised they killed off Harrison Ford. But after reading about it, it made sense. I think he may have potentially stolen the limelight as a character and prevented the trilogy from becoming the legacy of its own making.


By the way, what did you also think of Kylo Ren? That seemed to be one area which everyone was conflicted about. Personally I really liked him.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
Oh, I loved the new movie.  I felt like it did what it needed to do in order to re-establish the franchise on good footing.  If episode VIII is also harking back TOO much to the old stuff, then I'm going to be frustrated.  But I felt like this one did a really good job at what it was supposed to do.

As to the other things:

I just KNEW they were going to kill off Han.  When they first announced he was in the movie, my first thought was that was what they'd do.  I knew he'd asked for that during Empire Strikes Back, and narratively it makes sense.  He's getting quite old, and they needed to introduce new blood, etc.  When they spent so much time with him in this movie, I was like "yep, they're getting in as much time as possible because they gonna kill this dude."  I thought it was well done how they did it, too.

What I also thought was going to happen, though, was that the Starkiller base was going to actually destroy the planet they were trying to save, and the X-Wing squadron was going to fail.  THAT would have been dark, and really cool.  It also would have been too rapid of an end for Leia given she didn't have much screen time here, but she could have been a force ghost or something coming up.  I felt like something along those lines would have been a clear signal of "okay, we're going a different way with this than you thought, even though this is familiar."  I feel like next movie they're going to do that.

I really liked Kylo Ren.  He's a school shooter.  He's un-cool, he has all the hallmarks, etc.  During the woods I really wished he'd put his mask back on, because he's super threatening when he's hiding behind the mask.  But so long as he mostly keeps it on in the new movies, that will be great.  The cognitive dissonance that this un-cool school shooter kid creates with being this crazy Darth Vader wannabe is great.  You could even tell how immature he was when he still had on the mask, because he sat there destroying property of his own in a rage.  He didn't strangle people like grandpa, but somehow that made him seem less mature.  My wife remarked on that bit in particular, too.

Anyhow, we both really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 15, 2016, 11:00:09 AM
Also, the stormtroopers on patrol at one point quietly dodge going near kylo's property destruction rage. They're more scared of angry kylo than looking like they're properly on patrol.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 11:02:10 AM
That was both hilarious and a super nice touch.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 11:43:05 AM
What did you think about the new Star Wars movie?

I was actually surprised at just how similar the plot line paralleled A New Hope.

I was even more surprised that I found myself enjoying it even though this was the case. Maybe that's just proof of how desperate people had become to have that genuine Star Wars experience the prequels had deprived us of.

I was also very surprised they killed off Harrison Ford. But after reading about it, it made sense. I think he may have potentially stolen the limelight as a character and prevented the trilogy from becoming the legacy of its own making.


By the way, what did you also think of Kylo Ren? That seemed to be one area which everyone was conflicted about. Personally I really liked him.

Similar? It's almost line for line the same exact plot. As for Kylo, I think he's a credible character but pretty lame as a villian. I mean, an insecure emo kid trying to fill his idols' boots? Eeeeeh no. Contrary to most people though I did like his saber. It makes perfect sense from an in-universe standpoint and fits the character perfectly. Anyone insecure and compensating for his lack of self confidence WOULD make a saber that is so ludicrously overpowered that it's struggling to keep a coherent blade (hence the loud noise, serrated/irregular blade and plasma vents/quillons).
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 15, 2016, 11:50:15 AM
I don't mind his saber design (I'm surprised they didn't add a plasma hilt to any of them earlier), it just seems like its going to blow up whenever he activates it. And yet it didn't explode in this movie. It would've been amusing if it had blown up like it constantly sounds like it will, dagnabit!
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Draco18s on June 15, 2016, 11:55:56 AM
I agree with Mánagarmr about Kylo.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 12:07:07 PM
personally I enjoyed the new star wars film nothing to say on
mr han dying
since well me being as young as I am (I'm just turned 20) I never got attached to the character like so many other people did and I never thought he was that interesting a character in truth I would have found him completely forgettable if the actor didn't do as cracking a job as he did(also I kind of super spoiled my self on that film)
but really that goes for my self and the series it self on a whole half because as I mentioned before I'm stupidly young and didn't have the same surprised of watching the films in their correct order and with all the hype around them nothing really surprised me it makes me wish I could watch all these films completely blind to them to see them from your perspectives and also as a person who likes to read a lot science fiction I find the black and white sort of thing going on in the films generally rather dull
there's a ton more I could say really but id rather not get to rambly so ill stop here unless you want me to go on.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 12:29:06 PM
What did you think about the new Star Wars movie?

I was actually surprised at just how similar the plot line paralleled A New Hope.

I was even more surprised that I found myself enjoying it even though this was the case. Maybe that's just proof of how desperate people had become to have that genuine Star Wars experience the prequels had deprived us of.

I was also very surprised they killed off Harrison Ford. But after reading about it, it made sense. I think he may have potentially stolen the limelight as a character and prevented the trilogy from becoming the legacy of its own making.


By the way, what did you also think of Kylo Ren? That seemed to be one area which everyone was conflicted about. Personally I really liked him.

Similar? It's almost line for line the same exact plot. As for Kylo, I think he's a credible character but pretty lame as a villian. I mean, an insecure emo kid trying to fill his idols' boots? Eeeeeh no. Contrary to most people though I did like his saber. It makes perfect sense from an in-universe standpoint and fits the character perfectly. Anyone insecure and compensating for his lack of self confidence WOULD make a saber that is so ludicrously overpowered that it's struggling to keep a coherent blade (hence the loud noise, serrated/irregular blade and plasma vents/quillons).
I did how ever dig that character and just how pathetic he was much more interesting than anybody else in that film really I found the other new characters really quite forgettable really.


also an interesting thing came to me a while ago has anybody else here realised that c 3p0 and r2 d2 are the longest surviving characters in the series? in canonical time line order they've been there since the very beginning.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 01:01:32 PM
There were a lot of expectations on that film from a lot of people with a lot of different histories with the franchise.  There was no way it was going to please everybody.  I'm not nominating it for movie of the year, but I think it did a really good job and was enjoyable.  VIII has to be much more original, though.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 01:14:08 PM
There were a lot of expectations on that film from a lot of people with a lot of different histories with the franchise.  There was no way it was going to please everybody.  I'm not nominating it for movie of the year, but I think it did a really good job and was enjoyable.  VIII has to be much more original, though.
I definitely think they did a stellar job. It looked the part and it FELT the part. It was Star Wars, alright. No matter the nitpicks, it was still a really good attempt. Like you, I hope VIII is a more original story.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 01:15:34 PM
also an interesting thing came to me a while ago has anybody else here realised that c 3p0 and r2 d2 are the longest surviving characters in the series? in canonical time line order they've been there since the very beginning.
C3PO has been through at least two mindwipes I think though, so even though his personality seems similar, he's actually "died" twice. R2D2 though is one old as heck droid, and it doesn't quite make sense that he's still being used. Considering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2016, 01:45:35 PM
Quote
Considering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.
Ah, but you're comparing the SW Universe to our universe. It's a little different.

For example, in the Knights of the Old Republic game that literally takes place 4,000 years before the events of the first movie, pretty much everything is still the same. Lightsabers are around, all the technology and starships seem about the same. So if we're to take that at face value, that's 4k years with little to no technological advances at all. That game was hailed as a masterpiece.

Also, remember that the people in the Star Wars universe are not human. At least, they didn't come from our species, and thus may have significantly different characteristics.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 02:03:20 PM
There were a lot of expectations on that film from a lot of people with a lot of different histories with the franchise.  There was no way it was going to please everybody.  I'm not nominating it for movie of the year, but I think it did a really good job and was enjoyable.  VIII has to be much more original, though.
true true I've never really taken the series seriously personally although I find the out side lore very interesting and is more of the grey I like I'm glad I wasn't hyped for the film all things considered if I had been I probably would have hated it
like bio shock infinite I was absurdly hyped for that game but hateeeed it when I got my hands on it but that's a different discussion altogether 
agreed though if the next film panders  to the prequel haters and makes the next film a copy of tesb then I won't watch it I've got no shortage of science fiction to read.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 15, 2016, 02:06:40 PM
Its not like SW lore works anyway, they hid many, many dozens of books worth of background behind the curtain of 'Legends canon' instead of sorting out a feasible location for Ep. 7 and selectively un-cannoning things as needed.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 02:11:53 PM
Quote
Considering how fast technology should be advancing, he would be obsolete five times over.
Ah, but you're comparing the SW Universe to our universe. It's a little different.

For example, in the Knights of the Old Republic game that literally takes place 4,000 years before the events of the first movie, pretty much everything is still the same. Lightsabers are around, all the technology and starships seem about the same. So if we're to take that at face value, that's 4k years with little to no technological advances at all. That game was hailed as a masterpiece.

Also, remember that the people in the Star Wars universe are not human. At least, they didn't come from our species, and thus may have significantly different characteristics.
yea pretty much unless out side lore talks about the way technology works as a whole then id just take it as ,if it isn't broke don't fix it, kind of approach it may be that they simply were never able to find a way to improve on the design in the republic era
how ever in the imperial era(which counts the era that seventh film is in since the emperors death seems to have done nothing to the state of it)its probably that the rebel forces never had the time to upgrade r2s model so I think its fair to say that since he clearly fulfilled his purpose admirably 
that they just decided to let it be.

ps the out of universe reason though is that in the original trilogy he became so iconic that they put him in the prequels and the new film for fan fare.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: x4000 on June 15, 2016, 02:13:06 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 02:16:31 PM
Its not like SW lore works anyway, they hid many, many dozens of books worth of background behind the curtain of 'Legends canon' instead of sorting out a feasible location for Ep. 7 and selectively un-cannoning things as needed.
yea there is a good deal that's unexplained in that film due to it being 1 a arbitrary trilogy and 2 a film if it was a book they could have gone away from what was happening to explain what is were and why or better yet before the story properly starts with a map of the universe and various notes on things one of the reasons I prefer books for world building personally
but there is a good deal that's unexplained not that I'm really in the mood to go into that.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 02:18:09 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.

As for what you said about the lore, Wingflier, I agree in part. But you don't really watch Star Wars for science that holds together. It's a space opera, plain and simple. It's not meant to make sense. It's made to be epic and entertaining. (See parsec)
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 02:19:14 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
fine by me if books are released to explain the things that don't make sense in that film even better id be more than happy to read those.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 15, 2016, 02:21:11 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 15, 2016, 02:23:38 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.

As for what you said about the lore, Wingflier, I agree in part. But you don't really watch Star Wars for science that holds together. It's a space opera, plain and simple. It's not meant to make sense. It's made to be epic and entertaining. (See parsec)
I understand (I've understand that for a good long while) but I at least like to over analyse universes like that.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 15, 2016, 02:46:42 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.

Didn't they though? I don't remember the YV being mentioned in the movie. Were they?
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 15, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
I absolutely love that they, excuse the expression, "shat" all over the novels and comics. Because those were a bleeding mess of retcons and power fantasies written for teenagers and sometimes BY teenagers. It was a disgrace to the brand and I'm very glad that they decided to ignore all that going forward. It may piss off a bunch of fans but I firmly believe it was for the better.

As for what you said about the lore, Wingflier, I agree in part. But you don't really watch Star Wars for science that holds together. It's a space opera, plain and simple. It's not meant to make sense. It's made to be epic and entertaining. (See parsec)
I agree with this. The idea that they would go through EVERY SINGLE LINE of hundreds of books, cartoons, and other 3rd person Star Wars lore just to make it all fit is... Quite frankly ridiculous. And anybody who expected that a bit moronic. Hell, George Lucas couldn't even make his prequels fit in with the canon of the originals. There were so many things that blatantly did not fit into the story. Like how Leia says she remembered her mother from when she was young but in the prequels Padme died in childbirth *facepalm*. Plenty of things like that, and George Lucas WROTE the original scripts. So just imagine trying to do that with all the 3rd party canon...

There's also the added fact that 95% or more of all Star Wars fans haven't even read any of the other canon. So fitting that into the new movie would probably turn out as disastrous as expecting the audience of the new Warcraft film to know the backstory of the past 1,000 years of Azeroth, and the film critics scratching their heads thinking, "What the heck is going on here?" Disaster.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Cyborg on June 15, 2016, 07:52:13 PM
The only character from the old canon who I wouldn't mind seeing in the movies would be Thrawn.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Draco18s on June 15, 2016, 10:25:39 PM
All I am thinking now is this quote from a friend
(I lost track of the conversation a page back)

Quote from: DictatorOwl
also, just happend in our StarWars RPG.
I'm playing a Nosaurian, funny little lizard people as character. Intense situation. Spaceship about to crash. Gotta do some emergency repairs.
Chukka (my character) gets instructions: QUICK, JUST FUSE THE RED WIRES WITH THE BLUE ONES*
me: .... well.. that's gonna be a problem....I can't see a red or blue wire...
everyone else: WHY? Its clearly there!
me: ... you guys know that I'm colourblind, right?
(entire species is colourblind.)
leads to some funny things
"why is everyone scared when I light my lightsaber? I mean I'm not THAT scary looking..."
"... because it's RED."
"... what is red?"
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 15, 2016, 11:51:09 PM
I think it was smart to reboot the canon, honestly.  I like a lot of what was in the old EU, but it's time for some fresh stuff.  Knowing in advance what the future might hold just really would work against these movies.
Honestly, I think they could've just thrown out the yuuzhan vong (as much as I liked Traitor, the entire YV series was not especially good), added a clause for something like 'the movies may make their own direction instead of following the EU' and been fine.

Didn't they though? I don't remember the YV being mentioned in the movie. Were they?
They threw out rebranded the entire EU, not just the YV. But theres some decent stuff buried in the blandness of the full EU like, yknow. Admiral Thrawn. Now someone would have to write a new book that involved him to bring him back, which will probably end less than great at best.

Not even suggesting they look through all of it, since theres far too much of it. Just ask who the best non-movie-based EU characters are (on their site, or facebook, whatever), add those into a movie or a decent book eventually, throw out the entire YV section because no matter what it'll end up conflicting with future stuff, ignore everything non-movie pre-Yavin (because I highly doubt people will accept more prequel movies at this point), maybe skim those large-sized book Essential Guides full of ships and droids and species (but not the chronology one, since they aren't going to follow it anyway) to maybe use in the background and be done. Its not as blunt and simple a plan, but it'd probably be the least effort without just dumping the interesting people out along with all the unread books.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 16, 2016, 01:56:43 AM
There's also the added fact that 95% or more of all Star Wars fans haven't even read any of the other canon. So fitting that into the new movie would probably turn out as disastrous as expecting the audience of the new Warcraft film to know the backstory of the past 1,000 years of Azeroth, and the film critics scratching their heads thinking, "What the heck is going on here?" Disaster.
Though if you've seen the Warcraft film you know that knowing the history of Azeroth is completely superflous as the movie does nothing to adhere to it whatsoever, except for a few concepts and names. Pretty much everything has been changed. Off the top of my head:

- Garona is half human, half orc. No. She's half draenai, half orc.
- Garona was under mental compulsion, not slavery, by Gul'Dan.
- Gul'dan wasn't even in Azeroth as he was overseeing the invasion of other worlds from Draenor. He's the reason the planet was ripped apart when he opened hundreds of dark portals to other realms. Or rather tried to.
- The Frostwolves were definitely not in the warband to conquer Azeroth. They refused to take the fel energies and were banished by Gul'Dan, already on Draenor.
- The Orcs didn't camp out in front of the portal. They took up residence in Blackrock Mountain, led by Blackhand. Blackhand was not the puppet of Gul'Dan, as Gul'Dan was on Draenor.

The list goes on and on. They changed SO MUCH and some of it I understand from a movie perspective (getting Frostwolves in so they could shoehorn in the birth of Go'El (Thrall) for a sequel) but some I do not at all.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 16, 2016, 03:35:19 AM
Holy cow, you mean they didn't even stick with the lore of the game? That's even worse than I thought.

And no, I didn't see the movie (have no intention to). I was just interested in what the reviewers thought, given that it was the biggest video game to movie adaptation of all time. Over and over again the biggest complaint was the hilariously confused, "What's going on here again?" Apparently the first half of the movie is a bunch of obscure references to things that a person with no knowledge of the series would even have the slightest idea about. At least that's what I read over and over. Of course the fans had a much higher opinion of it, probably because they understood a fraction of what was going on, and also because if it's made by Blizzard iz gud.

Well, if the movie had been highly received I definitely would have gone and seen it, but I didn't have high hopes. I loved the Warcraft 3 story, it was one of the most interesting plotlines of any game I've ever played. The whole story with Uther, Arthas, his father the king, Grom Hellscream (god that final cinematic brought tears to my eyes), damn it was all so good. But from what I've heard, World of Warcraft butchered the storyline, and apparently this movie has somehow managed to butcher the butchery.

Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 16, 2016, 04:55:24 AM
WoW really did butcher everything good about the lore, that is true. However, I'd say as a fan of the games the movie was still worth seeing, in spite of the changes. But I can definitely see how someone not in the knowledge of Warcraft lore would be utterly confused. Who are the orcs? Where are they from? What is fel magic? How is it different from other magic? Who are the Kirin Tor? Who are the humans, dwarves? What is Lordaeron? Stormwind?

There's just so much that isn't explained and that is glossed over in the movie. I had a pretty hard time following the story as well, as it's sort of a butchered amalgamation of four games, of which one is an MMO. That said, I still think they did a very respectable job. The acting was great (with the glaring exception of Garona and Lothar), the action was good, visuals were amazing and even though pacing was a bit uneven it was pretty good overall.

The casting for Khadgar was great. He was, hands down, the best actor in the entire movie. And the guy they casted as Medivh REALLY looked and acted the part. So overall, I'd say it's actually much better than expected.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 16, 2016, 04:55:34 AM
(God I love this forum. DERAIL!)
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 16, 2016, 06:00:41 AM
That's good to know. I haven't heard a lot of positive things but I'm certain I'll get around to seeing it at some point, so I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. In general movie critics and I sometimes don't jibe very well.

For example I thought the recent Mad Max remake was freaking atrocious, even though it's reviews were glowing by just about everybody. The newest Mission Impossible movies are terrible and they just need to stop (though I liked the originals. I think 3 was my favorite.) I have no idea how anybody could get Hellboy (or the sequel) a good review, but they both scored pretty high.

The biggest critic blunder ever though in my opinion is probably Super 8. Holy moly Batman, that movie was bad. I guess it was supposed to be like ET for a new generation, but all it succeeded was being a disorganized trainwreck (no literally, there's a trainwreck scene in the movie that's so over the top it'll make you dizzy) with so many plot holes it could sink the Titanic...again.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 16, 2016, 04:40:06 PM
That's good to know. I haven't heard a lot of positive things but I'm certain I'll get around to seeing it at some point, so I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. In general movie critics and I sometimes don't jibe very well.

For example I thought the recent Mad Max remake was freaking atrocious, even though it's reviews were glowing by just about everybody. The newest Mission Impossible movies are terrible and they just need to stop (though I liked the originals. I think 3 was my favorite.) I have no idea how anybody could get Hellboy (or the sequel) a good review, but they both scored pretty high.

The biggest critic blunder ever though in my opinion is probably Super 8. Holy moly Batman, that movie was bad. I guess it was supposed to be like ET for a new generation, but all it succeeded was being a disorganized trainwreck (no literally, there's a trainwreck scene in the movie that's so over the top it'll make you dizzy) with so many plot holes it could sink the Titanic...again.
do the Warcraft games have good writing to them? if so I might just go do some research because frankly from all I've seen the universe it self seems a bit uninspired really I get that building a universe as complicated and deep as you can find in books would be really hard considering that blizzard have to figure out excuses as to why the players do all the things they do but a bit of thinking out side the box would be nice particularly the races those are so generic (asides from some exceptions like the frost nights they seem vaguely interesting although I don't think they count as a race) that I don't even really care enough to look them up
but though I'm the sort of person who likes reading the broken empire  and who loved dune so I'm doubt I'm the target audience there.

ps what exactly are you talking about with the mad max remake? I really never heard about that
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Aklyon on June 16, 2016, 06:45:41 PM
Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 16, 2016, 07:00:17 PM
Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.
yea that's the impression I get when ever see gameplay of wow but on a slightly un related note I was in water stones today and  noticed one of the hour heresy book was on sale but I think it was the 5th in the series however it reminded me I need to start that series particularly since the book in mark Lawrence's latest trilogy finally got here and i bought it today.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 17, 2016, 03:36:06 PM
I wouldn't say it's GOOD writing. As in "good enough to read a book about". But it's definitely not bad. It's about mid-level high fantasy novel writing. It's enjoyable, pretty deep sometimes and some characters actually have some real purpose and motivation for what they do and who they are. Then there's characters like Illidan who is so bland, boring and shallow, you'd miss him if you saw him in profile.

And people are DUMB. Dumb as bricks. Especially the night elves. Holy crap those buggers are dumb. Someone actually made a whole write-up of just how dumb night elves are. It's a hilarious read, even if you don't play the games.

Night elves are ****ups. (http://wow.gamepedia.com/User:Kaydeethree/Night_elves_mistakes#Night_Elves:_Bad_Decision_Makers)
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2016, 05:09:39 PM
Night Elves are like the stupid character in a horror movie. Every decision they make creates an urge for the viewer to groan, but yet if they didn't make such stupid decisions, there would be no movie.

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.
Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.

How else can you do it?

Before World of Warcraft, they could make the story go however they wanted. Hell, you could be the one playing Arthas or Illidan (you were), so if they want to create a story in which the bad guys ultimately win, there's nothing stopping them from doing that.

But in MMO? Nope. *Insert random character here* is hero number 3,283,751 to defeat the undefeatable Gorgok the Mighty or whatever.

You can't make a good story out of that.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 17, 2016, 05:26:24 PM
Night Elves are like the stupid character in a horror movie. Every decision they make creates an urge for the viewer to groan, but yet if they didn't make such stupid decisions, there would be no movie.

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.
Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.

How else can you do it?

Before World of Warcraft, they could make the story go however they wanted. Hell, you could be the one playing Arthas or Illidan (you were), so if they want to create a story in which the bad guys ultimately win, there's nothing stopping them from doing that.

But in MMO? Nope. *Insert random character here* is hero number 3,283,751 to defeat the undefeatable Gorgok the Mighty or whatever.

You can't make a good story out of that.
there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 17, 2016, 05:52:26 PM
there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.
Holy crap yes.

Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was the first one. One of the games that really helped kick off and develop the RTS genre. You could play as either orcs or humans, story playing out similarly but with a different ending (Blackrock Mountain conquered/Stormwind razed to the ground).

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness was the followup. Big focus on story and characters here. It's expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" goes even more into the lore. There's a TON of lore in this one, most of which was sourced (and butchered) to make the movie.

Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos really kicked WoW off. This introduced a new continent, new races and fleshed out the story of the orcs A LOT. It also brought the Legion much more into focus and got the undeads (Scourge) off the ground. It also kind of touches on why the elves are such d*cks.




and then came WoW...and ruined almost everything. Vanilla WoW wasn't ALL bad, but it still did dumb stuff like shoehorn the night elves into the alliance and the undead (WHAT?) with the horde. They were originally meant to be separate factions entirely (hence why their capitals are so far removed from their allies), but were put in haphazardly with the horde/alliance because it was too complicated and gave too much player segregation to have more than 2 factions. Other than that, it stuck pretty close to the established lore.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 17, 2016, 06:07:21 PM
there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.
Holy crap yes.

Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was the first one. One of the games that really helped kick off and develop the RTS genre. You could play as either orcs or humans, story playing out similarly but with a different ending (Blackrock Mountain conquered/Stormwind razed to the ground).

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness was the followup. Big focus on story and characters here. It's expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" goes even more into the lore. There's a TON of lore in this one, most of which was sourced (and butchered) to make the movie.

Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos really kicked WoW off. This introduced a new continent, new races and fleshed out the story of the orcs A LOT. It also brought the Legion much more into focus and got the undeads (Scourge) off the ground. It also kind of touches on why the elves are such d*cks.




and then came WoW...and ruined almost everything. Vanilla WoW wasn't ALL bad, but it still did dumb stuff like shoehorn the night elves into the alliance and the undead (WHAT?) with the horde. They were originally meant to be separate factions entirely (hence why their capitals are so far removed from their allies), but were put in haphazardly with the horde/alliance because it was too complicated and gave too much player segregation to have more than 2 factions. Other than that, it stuck pretty close to the established lore.
1 I think I may just pass

2 so what's the actual gameplay? same goes for 3 as well I'm sure id enjoy the world building and lore(despite the races seeming to be a bit generic) but not nearly as much as the broken empire series I really really like everything I've read from mark Lawrence
as I mentioned before I got the latest book in the series and I'm utterly loving its easily the best of this current trilogy so far

3 wait so does that mean the undead are sentient? that's actually a little bit interesting
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 17, 2016, 06:18:28 PM
1 I think I may just pass

2 so what's the actual gameplay? same goes for 3 as well I'm sure id enjoy the world building and lore(despite the races seeming to be a bit generic) but not nearly as much as the broken empire series I really really like everything I Most Certainly Have read from mark Lawrence
as I mentioned before I got the latest book in the series and I'm utterly loving its easily the best of this current trilogy so far

3 wait so does that mean the undead are sentient? that's actually a little bit interesting
All three games are bog standard strategy games in the vague vein of Starcraft. It's the same company, after all.  Generally well made and balanced and easy to get a good overlook on battles. I'm not a fan of individual unit skills (such as caster units with triggerable abilities). I prefer if my units have a brain and use whatever they want at the right time, but YMMV.

And yes, some of the undead in the scourge are sentient. Some are mere zombies, while others are a little more intelligent and the death knights themselves are probably comparable to vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade. Generally very intelligent and insanely powerful.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Wingflier on June 17, 2016, 08:23:29 PM
Lol the Undead as part of the Horde. That is comical now that I think about it. I could ALMOST see the Night Elves becoming part of the Alliance, at least temporarily simply because the Undead had become so powerful, and at that point they were threatening the entire world. But hell, at that rate the Horde could have even become part of the Alliance. I'm pretty sure they did ally with them at least temporarily in Warcraft 3 because the demon/undead combo plus the Lich King was so massively overpowering.

To think that the Undead would just OH, WE'RE HORDE NOW. Yeah, pretty dumb.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 18, 2016, 06:00:21 AM
Oh, there are dumber things than the undead joining with the horde. How about space paladins? Yeah. Draenai crashing conveniently near alliance territory and joining with them. Oh, and why won't we have the blood elves, former high elves addicted to magic, just do a 180 and turn to the people they've fought for decades? Sure, why not?
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: crazyroosterman on June 18, 2016, 05:17:28 PM
Lol the Undead as part of the Horde. That is comical now that I think about it. I could ALMOST see the Night Elves becoming part of the Alliance, at least temporarily simply because the Undead had become so powerful, and at that point they were threatening the entire world. But hell, at that rate the Horde could have even become part of the Alliance. I'm pretty sure they did ally with them at least temporarily in Warcraft 3 because the demon/undead combo plus the Lich King was so massively overpowering.

To think that the Undead would just OH, WE'RE HORDE NOW. Yeah, pretty dumb.
that is pretty stupid and just seems like lazy ness from blizzard from what i know the horde are seem quite tribe like and the idea that they would even accept the horde into their faction just seems like nonsence to me i think i might do a bit of research into the lich king hes had my curiosity for a while
hopefully hes not just an undead king that wouldnt be terribly intresting.
Title: Re: Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]
Post by: Mánagarmr on June 18, 2016, 05:24:53 PM
The Lich King is pretty unique in the way that he's completely incapable of moving or interacting with the world. He only affects the world through sheer mental compulsion and through intermediaries. He was banished and encased in solid ice.