Author Topic: Do you like Diablo 3?  (Read 127309 times)

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2012, 12:39:54 pm »
I don't 100% agree, but this is the arguement used by most of the people on the battle.net Story forums:

In Brood War, Kerrigan was tricky, smart and powerful. Whereas in WoL you have her set up to be a Damsel in Distress, forced into the role of Zerg Queen, hoping for Raynor to rescue her. She doesn't have any of her classic evilness, she simply makes threats as the Dominion/Raiders stomp her army at every turn.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #271 on: August 04, 2012, 12:58:37 pm »
Interesting, Blizzard plays the corruption card (and to a lesser extent the utter-destructurion-of-previous-personality card) so incredibly hard in so many of the things it's done that I'm really surprised that they would have backed up a bit on Kerrigan.  I never played SC2.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2012, 01:03:27 pm »
I played sc2. I think what you see happening with Kerrigan is that there is a point to the war. I don't want to spoil the ending for everyone, but I don't see her being a damsel in distress. She's always been used, and that's how I see her.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #273 on: August 04, 2012, 01:30:13 pm »
I loved Kerrigan in Wings of Liberty (having not played the SC1 campaign).  The entire story was wonderfully done - the character development, the plot twists, the hopeless love story.  Seriously, if the Starcraft story had ended there forever, I would have been completely happy with that.

Wings of Liberty was Raynor's story, and Raynor loved Kerrigan.  In HotS, I think Kerrigan will become the lead role, and we'll get to see her old personality come back in force.  If it's true that "the swarm" had corrupted who she really was, it would make sense that she was conflicted.  Now that she has been released from the "mind control" aspect of the Zerg, they can start getting into the nitty gritty of her true character.  If the story is anywhere near as good as Wings of Liberty, I'm sure it won't disappoint.

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Offline yllamana

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #274 on: August 04, 2012, 02:31:43 pm »
I'll try and explain my point of view. A lot of it is based on the ending of the game and how that colours the rest of the story, so if you don't want spoilers then please skip this post. :) Please note a couple of things before reading:

1. it's totally okay if the story didn't come across to you that way. If you enjoyed the story and I didn't then, well, it sounds like you got the better end of the bargain, right? :) On the other side of the coin, how the story came across to me doesn't mean I viewed it "wrong" - how I felt is how I felt.

2. the story is probably a lot better if you never played Starcraft, and in particular Brood War. That is because Chris Metzen has learned somewhere along the way that retconning beloved universes to fit whatever story takes your fancy this year is a good thing. This had good results in Warcraft 3 (and the foreward to the Warcraft Archive talks about how Richard A. Knaak phoned Metzen one day with a really awesome idea for a retcon, so that might be where it all began) but the same attitude has carried over to WoW, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3, with what I'd argue are bad results.

So, to start off with some essential background: in the original Starcraft, there was no big romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. They actually get off to a pretty bad start and maintain a respectful distance from then on, which isn't super long because Kerrigan gets captured by the Zerg (though you don't know this at the time) on level 8 or so. Later, in the Zerg campaign, she turns out to be the Overmind's grand new creation and becomes Infested Kerrigan.

A bunch of things happen and the Overmind dies. Infested Kerrigan turns into the Queen of Blades we all know and love. The United Earth Directorate turns up and some bizarre teaming up with Kerrigan against them ensues, surprisingly enough followed by her stabbing her allies in the back to great effect. Part of the stabbing in the back involves her cheesing Fenix with Spawn Broodling, which is like the complete opposite of the glorious death in battle the Khala demands. Raynor is super mad at this, not so much because he's into the Khala but because Fenix is his best friend. He follows this by declaring that whatever humanity was left in Kerrigan is long gone and that one day - maybe not soon, on account of just having had his entire army trashed by her sudden but inevitable betrayal, but one day - he will find and kill her.

Yeah.

So anyway, with that brief summation out of the way we come to Starcraft 2. Right at the start of the game we see Raynor looking wistfully at his photo of Kerrigan, not with the sadness of murderous intent too long denied but with the sad reminiscence of, perhaps, love long lost. Oh oh, we're off to a bad start here.

I'd like to derail slightly to talk about a bit of a problem with Raynor's characterisation throughout the story. At the start of the game, we're presented with the marketing-friendly line, "It's time to kick this revolution into overdrive!" And Raynor certainly delivers on that pretty well, succeeding in everything he attempts to do from that point onwards. The problem is, after that he frequently ends up in cutscenes moping about how nothing is going their way and life's not fair and nobody even commented on his last livejournal post and so on (full disclosure: I have a livejournal). His negative attitude really clashes badly with the continual success he meets and makes his characterisation appear a bit incoherent.

So throughout the story we meet with Kerrigan. Part of the problem with Kerrigan is she seems very... listless. Passive. She doesn't really seem to ever do anything, and the few things she halfheartedly attempts (with what's presumably still the most fearsome force in the Koprulu sector) are easily thwarted by the plucky Raynor and his motley band.

Let's skip over the rest of the game, since it's really pretty random for the most part. At Char, we're also presented with some weird stuff. The Confederate fleet launches a frontal assault. To recap, this is the same Confederacy that had its entire fleet destroyed, followed by Arcturus Mengsk putting together a fleet of whatever random ships he could find - mostly privately-owned ones - and then getting that destroyed, too. Maybe doomsday fleets just come in cereal boxes in the future (but not Zerg cereal boxes, apparently).

This fleet manages to break into Char and Kerrigan, powerless to do anything but run into your entrenched defenses of lots of whatever it is you brought over and over, is defeated and turned into naked human Kerrigan. Raynor kills his new old best friend and walks off into the sunset in his chunky power armour with the naked Kerrigan.

So when I say depowering and objectifying, I'd be talking about this iconic female character who's repeatedly shown to be ineffective, who ends up stripped of her power (and clothes) against her will and carried away as a prize by the male lead.

What makes the whole thing even more tragic is how much stronger the story and characters (especially Raynor's) could be without the love story retcon. When Zeratul reveals to Raynor that Kerrigan needs to be saved to save the galaxy, that could have been a powerful moment - he suddenly finds himself needing to help the woman he's sworn to kill. Instead, it's turned into an excuse for Raynor to do what he wants to do anyway - save his girlfriend - and is completely robbed of any emotional impact.

It's a real shame.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #275 on: August 04, 2012, 03:11:28 pm »
Great post. I'm going to cover my spoilers with the black text color. Just highlight it.


 It looks like what really bothers you is the fact that Jim picks her up and walks off into the sunset with her appearing to be naked.

You have to understand that in the original, Jim and his ragtag band liberate Kerrigan, who is the product of a secret program to create what we know as ghosts. They do become friendly, despite the wisecracks. I don't remember any acrimony, actually, and when Kerrigan goes on a mission with Jim and gets surrounded, he quite understandably flips out and wants his friend back.

I'm certainly not the only person who saw it that way and viewed it as a love story. It's interesting to me that you leave this part out and jump right into her role as the leader of the swarm. I mean that genuinely- that is an interesting interpretation. If I remember correctly, a lot of the hype around the game was about this love story. Kerrigan and Jim exchange words several times during the expansion set of the original game, and it's always with teasing. In fact, they were in it together against the UED! They both acknowledge their differences, and their new lives as mortal enemies, but not without a hint of sadness on Jim's part. Kerrigan actually has to remind him she's not the same woman.

Fast forward to your comments about being an ineffective leader. The entire story was told from the Terran point of view. Of course it's going to have a lot about the space cowboy. I think we should withhold judgment because she is not fawning all over Jim, she is not playing the hapless leader.

Yes she does get carried out by her old flame, but does this damn the entire story to being sexist? Love lost was one of the main themes of the original.
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Offline yllamana

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2012, 03:45:07 pm »
Great post. I'm going to cover my spoilers with the black text color. Just highlight it.


 It looks like what really bothers you is the fact that Jim picks her up and walks off into the sunset with her appearing to be naked.

You have to understand that in the original, Jim and his ragtag band liberate Kerrigan, who is the product of a secret program to create what we know as ghosts. They do become friendly, despite the wisecracks. I don't remember any acrimony, actually, and when Kerrigan goes on a mission with Jim and gets surrounded, he quite understandably flips out and wants his friend back.

I'm certainly not the only person who saw it that way and viewed it as a love story. It's interesting to me that you leave this part out and jump right into her role as the leader of the swarm. I mean that genuinely- that is an interesting interpretation. If I remember correctly, a lot of the hype around the game was about this love story. Kerrigan and Jim exchange words several times during the expansion set of the original game, and it's always with teasing. In fact, they were in it together against the UED! They both acknowledge their differences, and their new lives as mortal enemies, but not without a hint of sadness on Jim's part. Kerrigan actually has to remind him she's not the same woman.

Fast forward to your comments about being an ineffective leader. The entire story was told from the Terran point of view. Of course it's going to have a lot about the space cowboy. I think we should withhold judgment because she is not fawning all over Jim, she is not playing the hapless leader.

Yes she does get carried out by her old flame, but does this damn the entire story to being sexist? Love lost was one of the main themes of the original.

Well, I'll point out I never called the story "sexist," let alone "the entire story!" Yours is an interesting interpretation of the first Starcraft and very different to mine. I can see how that'd make someone feel better about Starcraft 2's. I will say you do need to ignore the death of Fenix and Raynor swearing to kill Kerrigan for the sequel to make sense that way, though.

And yes, a lot of it comes down to the ending scene. It totally colours the rest of the game.

Re: what she's doing, that isn't pure speculation, it's influenced by the scenes with Zeratul, where she carries on about how nothing matters and what have you. I can imagine someone seeing that differently, too.

It's also possible that Heart of the Swarm will put all of this in yet another new light and even redeem the character, and the limited amount of promotional stuff I've seen looks promising, but I think Wings of Liberty should be able to stand on its own merits to the extent that's possible.

Thanks for discussing this civilly despite seeing it totally differently, by the way. :)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #277 on: August 04, 2012, 04:36:15 pm »
*Caution - May Contain Spoilers*


Quote
So, to start off with some essential background: in the original Starcraft, there was no big romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. They actually get off to a pretty bad start and maintain a respectful distance from then on, which isn't super long because Kerrigan gets captured by the Zerg (though you don't know this at the time) on level 8 or so. Later, in the Zerg campaign, she turns out to be the Overmind's grand new creation and becomes Infested Kerrigan.

A bunch of things happen and the Overmind dies. Infested Kerrigan turns into the Queen of Blades we all know and love. The United Earth Directorate turns up and some bizarre teaming up with Kerrigan against them ensues, surprisingly enough followed by her stabbing her allies in the back to great effect. Part of the stabbing in the back involves her cheesing Fenix with Spawn Broodling, which is like the complete opposite of the glorious death in battle the Khala demands. Raynor is super mad at this, not so much because he's into the Khala but because Fenix is his best friend. He follows this by declaring that whatever humanity was left in Kerrigan is long gone and that one day - maybe not soon, on account of just having had his entire army trashed by her sudden but inevitable betrayal, but one day - he will find and kill her.
I didn't play SC1 so maybe this huge hole didn't ruin it for me.

To me, the entire thing starts out as a love story (SC2 I mean), and it just excels from there. 

Quote
I'd like to derail slightly to talk about a bit of a problem with Raynor's characterisation throughout the story. At the start of the game, we're presented with the marketing-friendly line, "It's time to kick this revolution into overdrive!" And Raynor certainly delivers on that pretty well, succeeding in everything he attempts to do from that point onwards. The problem is, after that he frequently ends up in cutscenes moping about how nothing is going their way and life's not fair and nobody even commented on his last livejournal post and so on (full disclosure: I have a livejournal). His negative attitude really clashes badly with the continual success he meets and makes his characterisation appear a bit incoherent.
I don't think it's incoherent at all.  It's the same reason why these rich stock traders and financial tycoons can have so much money and still be miserable - life revolves around love.  You can have all the victories or treasure in the world, but if you're missing love it's all for nothing.  I think Raynor was happy with his victories, but he knew that with every victory (especially against the Zerg), he simply got 1 step closer to having to kill Kerrigan.  Raynor didn't know if he would have to kill Kerrigan, but it was his greatest fear.  He wanted to save her but it wasn't until the end of the story (literally last mission) that he realized it was possible.  I think on some level he believed he would have to kill her, and that ripped him apart inside.  Also, I chose the "path" where you kill the Scientist woman on the Terran planet that goes bad by siding with the Protoss.  So that was like a really big foreshadowing to both Raynor and I that this wasn't going to end well.

When he "saves" Kerrigan at the end, I was literally so emotionally involved I was nearly crying.  I watched the video over and over again.

But basically, I think we'll see Kerrigan's "true" side in this new expansion.  In other words, instead of making her the strong, domineering female in the last game, I think they chose to prevent this one from ending "happily ever after" (obviously), so we'll get to see some more of her true character.
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #278 on: August 04, 2012, 07:02:52 pm »
Oh definitely, she looks much more like Sc1 Kerrigan in the HotS trailers. Her lessening in Wings of Liberty could be due to the game's focus on the Terrans, with the Zerg being more of a background thing until the very end.


Also, it's really weird for me to see people liking WoL's story. In the Battle.net forums, you can count the people who liked it on one hand, and they're all hated for this reason. But such is the way with AAA game forums.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:04:51 pm by Coppermantis »
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #279 on: August 04, 2012, 07:18:36 pm »
Thanks for discussing this civilly despite seeing it totally differently, by the way. :)

Yes, I appreciate it also. It's nice to have a good Starcraft nerd discussion, civilly and whatnot. I haven't gotten to do that in a long time, I used to debate lore with my buddies all the time. Sometimes I think blizzard forgets that the storyline is absolutely imperative to a lot of the players. That's what made World of Warcraft suck so much. The entire story previously had been about racial tension, and it just turned into monster bashing. Not to mention the Draenai lore fiasco, which instead of fixing they just left broken. They are an impossibility!

Also, I would argue that killing Fenix in the original doesn't preclude true love, as technically Kerrigan is infested. 

In regards to Kerrigan acting nihilistic, again I think this is all from the perspective of the Terran army. It's really hard to judge her character when the entire story is told from the point of view of Jim. Do you remember the rumblings about a fourth race? Technically, each of these races are descended from the other in attempts at creating the perfect species, with the Zerg being the race that evolves the quickest. There is supposed to be a fourth race, but they could never balance it. I'm thinking we will find out about this plot in one of the sequels.


When he "saves" Kerrigan at the end, I was literally so emotionally involved I was nearly crying.  I watched the video over and over again.

But basically, I think we'll see Kerrigan's "true" side in this new expansion.  In other words, instead of making her the strong, domineering female in the last game, I think they chose to prevent this one from ending "happily ever after" (obviously), so we'll get to see some more of her true character.

Agreed, wingflier. I must have watched that last scene five times, it was so heroic. It's a little sad that it turns people off like yllamana (anomaly or is this a Sponge music reference?). I don't think it's meant to be sexist or damsel in distress. It's the space cowboy who has traveled the stars, endured the losses of thousands of soldiers, friends, and more to be with this woman, and at long last his dreams come true in one sparkling sunset.

It's true, the cyborg is a sap deep deep down… And honestly it was a moment of happiness to have a happy ending in Starcraft for once.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:20:56 pm by Cyborg »
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #280 on: August 04, 2012, 08:45:44 pm »
ge her character when the entire story is told from the point of view of Jim. Do you remember the rumblings about a fourth race? Technically, each of these races are descended from the other in attempts at creating the perfect species, with the Zerg being the race that evolves the quickest. There is supposed to be a fourth race, but they could never balance it. I'm thinking we will find out about this plot in one of the sequels.[/color]


SPOILERS:

Actually, the Terrans weren't involved in the original Xel'Naga Cycle. From what I understand, the Xel'naga enhanced the Protoss with their psionic powers, but the Protoss experiment didn't turn out well so the Xel'Naga adbandoned them. They then created the Zerg, but this time they used an Overmind to hopefully ensure greater success, with the intention that the Zerg and Protoss would eventually merge peacefully to spawn the next generation of Xel'Naga. However, the Overmind turned against the Xel'Naga for whatever reason and killed most of them.

The Fourth race is the Hybrids that we encounter in the Protoss Missions in WoL. With the current information available, it would seem that the Hybrids are a merging of Protoss and Zerg somewhat like the Xel'Naga intended except manipulated by the "Dark Voice" aka "The Fallen One", whose name indicates it is a Fallen/Corrupted Xel'Naga.

The Prophecy that Zeratul uncovers speaks of "One who will break the cycle of the [Xel'Naga]", presumably Kerrigan. She will do so by keeping control of the Zerg, thus keeping the Dark Voice from doing the same and merging the Zerg and Protoss. Hence the need to "rescue" Kerrigan, as her survival is imperative to the survival of all three races. Unfortunately, this means that Raynor is unable to avenge Fenix without dooming the Universe.


Please note that the above is accurate only as far as I have researched/experienced, so there may be errors.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #281 on: August 04, 2012, 09:27:35 pm »
That's correct, I just didn't want to rehash the whole chain. Anyway, my comments about the fourth race remains as important to Kerrigan.
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Offline yllamana

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #282 on: August 05, 2012, 02:00:02 am »
Well, part of what's interesting about Kerrigan's character to me is yes, she's infested, but she also seems to have her own free will. The question there becomes: how much of this is Kerrigan? I think it makes her a much less interesting character if it just becomes oh, she's just infested and that's why she's evil. The part in Brood War where Raynor swears to kill her implied to me that he doesn't think any redemption is possible for her, either. Having all that washed over weakens the story for me.

All that aside, I didn't mean to start a huge Starcraft 2 discussion. :) It was just part of the pattern I've seen in Blizzard's games for a while. It sort of makes me wonder if the only reason I liked Blizzard's stories in the first place was the storytelling limitations letting me interpret it differently to the intent of the author. That culminated in Diablo 3, where the most of the writing and execution is so poor that I find it impossible to get immersed in the game. I certainly never had that problem in Wings of Liberty - despite its flaws, the story was only really ruined for me by the ending. I liked Raynor and wanted to see him succeed. Diablo 3... well. :(

I can forgive a poor story for good gameplay (and as I said, I thought SC2: WoL had very entertaining and polished single player gameplay). I can forgive poor gameplay for a good story (hi Bioware!). When the gameplay is uninteresting and the story has no hook I just don't want to play at all.

I think "hook" is probably an important word there. I don't think my standards for enjoying a story are all that high - what I really need is a reason to care about it and the characters in it. Borderlands might be an example: I bought it because it was highly recommended but I found all the characters to be unlikeable (except the robot, and he might have been trying too hard) and the setting and premise uninteresting, so it left me no desire to get into it further. I don't think SC2: WoL had a very good story, but I liked Raynor - there's the hook.

Heck, even AI War has a better hook: you're saving the entire human race (though I guess that's weakened somewhat by the rebels and marauders existing. What the heck, guys!! Story inconsistency!!!!). It's a bit of a cliched thing to be doing, but there's a reason it's so popular. ;) AVWW doesn't have the same hook, but it has the great setting to explore to draw you in. I wonder if that'd feel better if you couldn't just run over the top of all the areas using the world map.

Er, anyway. Point is, Diablo 3 was pretty disappointing. :(

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #283 on: August 05, 2012, 11:08:25 am »
Diablo has always been a campy tale. It's about burrowing underground to destroy what could pass for a devil character. The characters you meet along the way, it's supposed to be fun and humorous. I do not think it's supposed to be a story you take seriously.

The real question is, for all of its problems, are you going to purchase Heart of the Swarm? I bet it has a lot about Kerrigan.  ;)
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Offline yllamana

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Re: Do you like Diablo 3?
« Reply #284 on: August 05, 2012, 11:30:54 am »
Diablo has always been a campy tale. It's about burrowing underground to destroy what could pass for a devil character. The characters you meet along the way, it's supposed to be fun and humorous. I do not think it's supposed to be a story you take seriously.
Well, that's the thing, right? The storytelling changed a lot between the second and third games. Perhaps the big difference was that in the second game you could see what you wanted to see in it - it's more open to interpretation. With the third installment that isn't so much the case, and perhaps that's the difference rather than the story they intended to tell being different.
The real question is, for all of its problems, are you going to purchase Heart of the Swarm? I bet it has a lot about Kerrigan.  ;)
I don't know. The little marketing movie I saw looked promising, but I'm feeling a bit burned by Wings of Liberty and Diablo 3. Maybe? I did enjoy the single player campaign of WoL until the end. It's a tricky question. Is it my responsibility as a customer to not buy it because the story might be bad? I certainly don't think buy/don't buy is the extent of your decision as a customer, because I think providing feedback is a lot more valuable than just not buying something alone, but there's got to be a point where you should put your foot down.

It's not a must-buy for me anymore. I guess we'll see if I buy it before release anyway! :)