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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Wingflier on May 03, 2016, 12:22:28 PM

Title: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on May 03, 2016, 12:22:28 PM
Oh man, they just released the Announce Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ZgyNoHtjw&feature=youtu.be) and it is absolutely sick. It's extremely dark and irreverent.

I grew up around the kind of people that thought Harry Potter, LOTR, and Diablo 2 was evil, and I feel like watching this video would make them curl up into a fetal position and cry.

It's the kind of thing which, if they caught their kids playing, they'd take the CD, box, poster, and all other materials and burn them in effigy while rambling on about end times.

I hope the gameplay can live up to the visceral and poetic theme they've created. I was very pleased with DoW2.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Toranth on May 03, 2016, 02:59:59 PM
So happy, yet so scared at the same time...

This one will require careful watching to see if, much less when, it is worth getting.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 03, 2016, 03:06:54 PM
They kinda lost me when I learned it is only 3 races, but won me back when they said it is more similar to Dow1 than dow2.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 03, 2016, 03:10:01 PM
So it will have base building again?
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 03, 2016, 03:28:42 PM
So it will have base building again?

Yes from what I read so far.

And also Dotalike hero picks and counter picks etc. They are again trying something new in a sense.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 03, 2016, 03:32:18 PM
Sign me up then. i missed base building in DoW2. Not that it was a bad game but I didn't quite like this tactical roleplay concept they used there.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on May 03, 2016, 03:37:29 PM
So it will have base building again?

Yes from what I read so far.

And also Dotalike hero picks and counter picks etc. They are again trying something new in a sense.
Where are you reading all this information? Hook us up!

Honestly I'd rather have 3 unique and balanced factions, with the possibility of more in future expansions than just having races for races sake.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the second game, but in multiplayer there were some real balance issues. I'd be content with 3 if it meant they were sensible and fair.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 03, 2016, 03:55:09 PM
So it will have base building again?

Yes from what I read so far.

And also Dotalike hero picks and counter picks etc. They are again trying something new in a sense.
Where are you reading all this information? Hook us up!

Honestly I'd rather have 3 unique and balanced factions, with the possibility of more in future expansions than just having races for races sake.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the second game, but in multiplayer there were some real balance issues. I'd be content with 3 if it meant they were sensible and fair.

Here:

http://www.pcgamer.com/dawn-of-war-3-inside-relics-biggest-rts-yet/

Right now, there is a mod for DOW1 that increases to race count to 21, all vanilla quality races, with different gameplays. I guess I am too spoiled to be okay with only 3 races.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Aklyon on May 03, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
Are you talking about Ultimate Apocalypse, tombik?
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 03, 2016, 04:59:21 PM
Are you talking about Ultimate Apocalypse, tombik?

No, actually I am talking about a collection of mods.

Ultimate Apocalypse is also nice, but not for me, since they try to modify the game, every original race as well, as well as the scale of the game. But DOW1 engine can only support so much, so it results in unintelligible chaos mostly (not that chaos).I also dont like how they change the default camera to allow a higher field of vision. I like my vanilla races as they are. And also, UA does not include every race I am about to mention.

Here is what I am aware of, all good quality mods, all better than official Dark Eldar for example:

Steel Legion
Adeptus Mechanicus
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Salamanders
Dark Angels
Harlequins
Black Templars
Thousand Sons
World Eaters

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?277691-Hub-All-Standalone-factions

This link includes some more, but some of it are still in the beta.

There is also an ongoing project in revora forums that aims to combine all these races, (there is a common developer for all of the above and he personally oversees this) and increase the race count up to 60 at the end. All the voice overs are ready, most build trees are ready, they are just in need of 3d artists and animators.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on May 03, 2016, 05:46:34 PM
Quote
Right now, there is a mod for DOW1 that increases to race count to 21, all vanilla quality races, with different gameplays. I guess I am too spoiled to be okay with only 3 races.
Well, when you say 'vanilla quality races', that's what I'm afraid of. The vanilla races weren't balanced that well. Sure, they had some cool ideas, unit designs, and gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean that they had any semblance of balance in a competitive multiplayer setting.

Heck, just look at the 3 Starcraft (original or sequel) races. We're going on 20+ years that those have been in development and they'll still probably continue to be balanced for many decades to come. I'm overwhelmingly skeptical of the idea that 20 (or even 60) races could be balanced in any meaningful way.

That PC Gamer article was amazing. I'm really liking the Alpha screenshots. So far from what I've read they're not doing anything revolutionary with the game, just changing some of the core concepts and design decisions to make it more large-scale and accessible to a modern RTS audience. As I said, what I'd really like to see is diversity and uniqueness in the original 3 races, after that they can go ham.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 03, 2016, 07:02:44 PM
Well, when you say 'vanilla quality races', that's what I'm afraid of. The vanilla races weren't balanced that well. Sure, they had some cool ideas, unit designs, and gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean that they had any semblance of balance in a competitive multiplayer setting.

I agree, it is really hard to balance, but in presenting w40k, balance is not what I am trying to find :) And it worked in DOW1 as well, if you really are good with the game you would pick a weak race, if you are pretty new, you would go Necrons etc.

The thing I emphasized by "vanilla quality" was that, they are full with original assets, sounds, mechanics etc. I have not played them enough to comment on their balance.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: eRe4s3r on May 03, 2016, 09:42:52 PM
Am I the only one who plays these games for the campaign story only? ;p So far I also hope they figure some new gameplay for skirmish vs AI out....

less hero focus is good news as well..

And that trailer was really nice.. make a movie styled like that, in that mood and you'd have me sold. .. btw.. why are there no decent Wh40k movies?
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 04, 2016, 06:29:36 PM
Its funny how alot of people comment on the trailer that they hope it is like DoW 1 and not 2. I guess many had the same problem as me with the game.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: TheVampire100 on May 04, 2016, 06:31:34 PM
Am I the only one who plays these games for the campaign story only? ;p So far I also hope they figure some new gameplay for skirmish vs AI out....

less hero focus is good news as well..

And that trailer was really nice.. make a movie styled like that, in that mood and you'd have me sold. .. btw.. why are there no decent Wh40k movies?
I play as well only for campaign mode. I'm not really into testing my capabilities with other players in RTS games. TBS no problem because I can take my time in thinking and planning my strategies but in RTS these days people except you to click fast. That's the main reason why I was tunred of by Starcraft 2 because the game was practically engineered towards those people.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Aklyon on May 05, 2016, 06:43:24 PM
I liked the campaign more in Dark Crusade, if only because it wasn't spess marines again. They're neat to play (and I did finish most of DoW1's campaign) as but what if I want to play as someone else?

Still think that C&C has best campaigns that I've tried, though its a shame that the tib line didn't get past kane's wrath :P
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Toranth on May 05, 2016, 07:01:23 PM
I liked the campaign more in Dark Crusade, if only because it wasn't spess marines again. They're neat to play (and I did finish most of DoW1's campaign) as but what if I want to play as someone else?

I'd been assuming that Dark Crusade and Soulstorm were what people liked about DoW 1... Do people really like the original campaign better?  I mean, it was pretty good and Winter Assault was fun, but it wasn't nearly as much fun as the full "Conquer the Planet" campaigns of the other two.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Coppermantis on May 05, 2016, 11:43:20 PM
No Imperial Guard :(


I feel like I'm in the minority in that I really liked DoW II, though I didn't play DoW I to compare them specifically. In general, I prefer small tactics games to commanding huge armies, especially when you have the Starcraft II-style "build a huge blob and attack" sort of thing. Huge campaigns may be more fitting for the Warhammer universe, but I found the squad tactical roleplay sort of thing more managable and fun. I always manage to lose track and get overwhelmed when I have hundreds of units and buildings to keep track of.

DoW II was great for me because you start with a few units and fights happen immediately, even at low levels, unlike, say, SC2 where a lot of people just blob up and a-move. I also liked the lack of base building and economy management - micro for me is much more interesting than macro, and what macro you do have is best when done in terms of territory control rather than having to manage workers, production facilities, and so on - I just want to command troops on the battlefield; realistically a field commander wouldn't also be handling the training of troops and gathering resources while he's leading the army.

I mean, it's not *bad* and building bases can be kind of fun and they look pretty, but in a fast-paced multiplayer game I'd rather micro than macro any day. Singleplayer's fine either way, and I mostly play games for the campaign anyway.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: chemical_art on May 05, 2016, 11:50:54 PM
In my first RTS I saw my father *every* match build a massive elaborate castle of defenses.  The only thing he wanted more?

The ability to switch mid game to defeat his castle.

Somehow that has rubbed off me. So I wanted DoW 3 to be more like 1.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on May 06, 2016, 12:44:01 PM
I liked Dawn of War 2 significantly more myself. I really liked the hero/rpg system as well, there were some neat ideas, mechanics and concepts with the whole execution of that.

The thing about Dawn of War 1 was, it was a neat game and all of that, but the problem is that it reminded me too much of Company of Heroes 1. I'm not sure which game came first, but the mechanics were extremely similar. DoW was basically Company of Heroes in the future and with melee combat. And Company of Heroes was the better game both in terms of production value, graphics, design, and reception, as well as the amount of time they spent post-production working on it (3 expansions as well as a decade of balance work. They even attempted to make Company of Heroes Online using the engine but it turned out to be a flop).

So DoW 2 separated itself enough from the original game to merit its own feel and quality as an RTS. Yes, it was a little too micro based, but let's be honest, everything Relic makes is micro based, that's just kind of how the games are designed.

I do like base building, but only if it's interesting and actually adds to the game in a meaningful way. I found base building for the most part in CoH 1 and 2, and DoW 1 to be somewhat futile. Most the time you only built structures to unlock new units, and since the games were won or lost based on capture points anyway, there was no point. Why not just spend the resources to unlock the ability to produce the units instead? Would have had the same effect. Buildings were more or less placeholders existing for the sake of notoriety in those games. Occasionally you could build a bunker on the frontline and that's kind of cool I guess. Britain from CoH 1 and OKW from CoH 2 have frontline bases that they can build but you can build similar structures in DoW 2, there's no reason to have "base building" if that's all it's for.

For me an example of meaningful base building would be Grey Goo or Forged Alliance. In Grey Goo it was interesting how the Humans had to connect all their structures to the main headquarters with energy rails but the Beta could build anywhere on the map. The Goo didn't even have a base, all their "buildings" were mobile. That kind of diversity and creativity when it comes to base building can go a long way in making it a mechanic that doesn't just exist for the sake of existing.

Forged Alliance did base building in a similar fashion to Total Annihilation (expected, given that it was the 'spiritual successor'). You carefully managed resource production through the types of buildings you created, their configuration, and even the technology tier. Unit production buildings could be assisted or created en masse in order to increase the production rate of your war machine.

In addition to that you had things like artillery emplacements that could hit huge swathes of the map, turrets, shield generators, nukes, anti-nukes, and a ton of other really neat ideas that made buildings a crucial part of the game.

So to me, those are examples of what meaningful base building looks like. Creating a new building just so you can finally produce this shiny unit or that shiny unit is laziness.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: eRe4s3r on May 06, 2016, 05:45:37 PM
Company of heroes came 2 years later ;p

I guess we'll see what they'll be doing...

Also the more I think about it, the more I realize that WH40k is a HUGELY restrictive license at this point. They should do a WH41K+ (extending the timeline) or WH25k or something (Warhammer fans will understand ,p)

As is in Wh40k, there wasn't really a whole lot of stuff going on in those 1000 years we haven't already seen.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on May 06, 2016, 07:40:57 PM
Company of heroes came 2 years later ;p

I guess we'll see what they'll be doing...

Also the more I think about it, the more I realize that WH40k is a HUGELY restrictive license at this point. They should do a WH41K+ (extending the timeline) or WH25k or something (Warhammer fans will understand ,p)

As is in Wh40k, there wasn't really a whole lot of stuff going on in those 1000 years we haven't already seen.
Maybe it did, but I think I started playing Company of Heroes before the original Dawn of War, so to me it was pretty much a downgrade in almost every way. There were some cool things like the melee combat and the number of factions, but CoH had a lot of factions too, and the game was designed infinitely better in almost every way. It was sort of like the difference between Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 or Torchlight 1 and Torchlight 2. Just no contest, the developers improved upon the original in basically every single meaningful way.

At that point I didn't even know what the WH40K Universe was so that wasn't particularly appealing either.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Coppermantis on May 07, 2016, 06:01:24 PM
Also the more I think about it, the more I realize that WH40k is a HUGELY restrictive license at this point. They should do a WH41K+ (extending the timeline) or WH25k or something (Warhammer fans will understand ,p)

What makes it restrictive? At least, why is it restrictive in a way that an extended timeline or 30k (I assume you're referring to the Horus Heresy, which is 30k) wouldn't be?

Edit: Re-reading your post, you're saying that there isn't much we haven't already seen in 40k? Seems kind of wrong, I think. One of 40k's biggest selling points is the "your dudes" aspect; that is, the galaxy is so large that you can have as many narratives going on at once as you have players and no canon would be violated. So if someone wanted to tell a 40k story or make a new game that featured entirely new characters and events, that would be totally plausible.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: eRe4s3r on May 08, 2016, 03:44:53 AM
You could think any narrative works of course, but you would still be restricted by the imperium mindset (if you focus on that area) that pervades everything of ignorance, technological decay and violence first, talk never approach.

Think about it this way.. imagine you'd make a game like Mass Effect in the Wh40k universe, you know, a role playing game (with alien~ romances, haha.. in wh40k... ;P) where you encounter other aliens, where you talk with them (giggling intensifies), where not every situation is supposed to end in genocidal mass destruction (maniacal laughter). (Point being: You can't even imagine such a thing in 40k, because the timeline is a total mess of total war)

Well, to be more precise, *I* can not imagine such a thing ;)

Maybe you are right and there is tons of creative possibilities apart from shooting stuff in Wh40k, but if you are right then please tell the developers of Wh40k games that.

Personally I think this IP produces always the same stuff because whoever owns the IP does not actually allow creative expansion of it... or at least it feels that way from the lore books and games...

P.S..: Wh25k was the golden age of humanity, to be more specific, the end time of that golden age (pre Emperor) so I could think there would a lot more creative possibility there... and way more sci-fi weapons.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Coppermantis on May 08, 2016, 04:24:43 PM
You could think any narrative works of course, but you would still be restricted by the imperium mindset (if you focus on that area) that pervades everything of ignorance, technological decay and violence first, talk never approach.

Think about it this way.. imagine you'd make a game like Mass Effect in the Wh40k universe, you know, a role playing game (with alien~ romances, haha.. in wh40k... ;P) where you encounter other aliens, where you talk with them (giggling intensifies), where not every situation is supposed to end in genocidal mass destruction (maniacal laughter). (Point being: You can't even imagine such a thing in 40k, because the timeline is a total mess of total war)

Well, to be more precise, *I* can not imagine such a thing ;)

Maybe you are right and there is tons of creative possibilities apart from shooting stuff in Wh40k, but if you are right then please tell the developers of Wh40k games that.

Personally I think this IP produces always the same stuff because whoever owns the IP does not actually allow creative expansion of it... or at least it feels that way from the lore books and games...

P.S..: Wh25k was the golden age of humanity, to be more specific, the end time of that golden age (pre Emperor) so I could think there would a lot more creative possibility there... and way more sci-fi weapons.

I agree that a lot of people get overwhelmed by the Grimdark when writing it, but that doesn't have to be the case. The Ciaphas Cain novels, for instance, are well-known and lauded for a more light-hearted take on the universe with more relatably human themes. The Eisenhorn novels are more typically dark, but they are often likened to noir detective stories rather than the rip-and-tear associated with 40k. Doom, gloom, and total war are big parts of the IP but it is far from impossible to write an ending other than genocidal mass destruction. You're not really restricted to the Imperium either, though it is true that most people like to write about the poster-boy Space Marines An Eldar or Tau game could be really cool. There was a Tau game a while back, though it was mediocre.

Also 25k is the Age of Strife (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife). You're referring to the Dark Age of Technology, which is 15k and ended in 25k when all kind of bad stuff went down, like the Men of Iron revolting and the birth of Slaanesh + fall of the Eldar.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: eRe4s3r on May 09, 2016, 05:44:13 AM
You could think any narrative works of course, but you would still be restricted by the imperium mindset (if you focus on that area) that pervades everything of ignorance, technological decay and violence first, talk never approach.

Think about it this way.. imagine you'd make a game like Mass Effect in the Wh40k universe, you know, a role playing game (with alien~ romances, haha.. in wh40k... ;P) where you encounter other aliens, where you talk with them (giggling intensifies), where not every situation is supposed to end in genocidal mass destruction (maniacal laughter). (Point being: You can't even imagine such a thing in 40k, because the timeline is a total mess of total war)

Well, to be more precise, *I* can not imagine such a thing ;)

Maybe you are right and there is tons of creative possibilities apart from shooting stuff in Wh40k, but if you are right then please tell the developers of Wh40k games that.

Personally I think this IP produces always the same stuff because whoever owns the IP does not actually allow creative expansion of it... or at least it feels that way from the lore books and games...

P.S..: Wh25k was the golden age of humanity, to be more specific, the end time of that golden age (pre Emperor) so I could think there would a lot more creative possibility there... and way more sci-fi weapons.

I agree that a lot of people get overwhelmed by the Grimdark when writing it, but that doesn't have to be the case. The Ciaphas Cain novels, for instance, are well-known and lauded for a more light-hearted take on the universe with more relatably human themes. The Eisenhorn novels are more typically dark, but they are often likened to noir detective stories rather than the rip-and-tear associated with 40k. Doom, gloom, and total war are big parts of the IP but it is far from impossible to write an ending other than genocidal mass destruction. You're not really restricted to the Imperium either, though it is true that most people like to write about the poster-boy Space Marines An Eldar or Tau game could be really cool. There was a Tau game a while back, though it was mediocre.

Also 25k is the Age of Strife (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife). You're referring to the Dark Age of Technology, which is 15k and ended in 25k when all kind of bad stuff went down, like the Men of Iron revolting and the birth of Slaanesh + fall of the Eldar.

True enough... I can only see the games we get for what they are though... look at the Warhammer 40k games released the last 30 years, not 1 isn't a war related game.

Is that creative laziness or the IP holder strangling creativity? Either way it is imo not helping the IP grow more popular... personally I would LOVE an Eldar or Tau focused Mass Effect or GTA like game.... but I guess risk taking isn't "in" nowadays. Or never really in case of this IP.

The earliest beginning of the Age of Strife would imo make a perfect timeline for an RPG though...
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: crazyroosterman on May 09, 2016, 11:22:11 AM
You could think any narrative works of course, but you would still be restricted by the imperium mindset (if you focus on that area) that pervades everything of ignorance, technological decay and violence first, talk never approach.

Think about it this way.. imagine you'd make a game like Mass Effect in the Wh40k universe, you know, a role playing game (with alien~ romances, haha.. in wh40k... ;P) where you encounter other aliens, where you talk with them (giggling intensifies), where not every situation is supposed to end in genocidal mass destruction (maniacal laughter). (Point being: You can't even imagine such a thing in 40k, because the timeline is a total mess of total war)

Well, to be more precise, *I* can not imagine such a thing ;)

Maybe you are right and there is tons of creative possibilities apart from shooting stuff in Wh40k, but if you are right then please tell the developers of Wh40k games that.

Personally I think this IP produces always the same stuff because whoever owns the IP does not actually allow creative expansion of it... or at least it feels that way from the lore books and games...

P.S..: Wh25k was the golden age of humanity, to be more specific, the end time of that golden age (pre Emperor) so I could think there would a lot more creative possibility there... and way more sci-fi weapons.

I agree that a lot of people get overwhelmed by the Grimdark when writing it, but that doesn't have to be the case. The Ciaphas Cain novels, for instance, are well-known and lauded for a more light-hearted take on the universe with more relatably human themes. The Eisenhorn novels are more typically dark, but they are often likened to noir detective stories rather than the rip-and-tear associated with 40k. Doom, gloom, and total war are big parts of the IP but it is far from impossible to write an ending other than genocidal mass destruction. You're not really restricted to the Imperium either, though it is true that most people like to write about the poster-boy Space Marines An Eldar or Tau game could be really cool. There was a Tau game a while back, though it was mediocre.

Also 25k is the Age of Strife (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife). You're referring to the Dark Age of Technology, which is 15k and ended in 25k when all kind of bad stuff went down, like the Men of Iron revolting and the birth of Slaanesh + fall of the Eldar.

True enough... I can only see the games we get for what they are though... look at the Warhammer 40k games released the last 30 years, not 1 isn't a war related game.

Is that creative laziness or the IP holder strangling creativity? Either way it is imo not helping the IP grow more popular... personally I would LOVE an Eldar or Tau focused Mass Effect or GTA like game.... but I guess risk taking isn't "in" nowadays. Or never really in case of this IP.

The earliest beginning of the Age of Strife would imo make a perfect timeline for an RPG though...
hey so I've been curious about the war hammer universe and have been intending to read some of the books thing is my knowledge of war hammer is very vague and I don't know were to begin with the books I have a friend who apparently has read some of the books but he's incredibly unhelpful on the matter so I decided to ask you nerds were I should begin?. 
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: tombik on May 09, 2016, 11:34:32 AM
hey so I Most Certainly Have been curious about the war hammer universe and have been intending to read some of the books thing is my knowledge of war hammer is very vague and I don't know were to begin with the books I have a friend who apparently has read some of the books but he's incredibly unhelpful on the matter so I decided to ask you nerds were I should begin?.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horus_Heresy_(novels)#book1

is a good start.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Aklyon on May 11, 2016, 10:06:39 AM
I'd add the ciaphas cain series to that as well.
Title: Re: Dawn of War 3!
Post by: Wingflier on July 08, 2016, 01:23:16 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/xLBIDAl.jpg)

Well, I guess DoW 3 won best of E3. Time to get excited boys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAy0N-lFGFc&feature=youtu.be