Author Topic: Darkest Dungeon has been released today  (Read 14106 times)

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2017, 10:39:21 AM »
The thing is, the way in which you go about information gathering has to be part of the fun. In this game, the way in which you go about gathering information is repeatedly dying and grinding your way to get a party back that can try again. Not everybody's idea of a good time. Certainly not mine.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
...if I do it by just looking up a guide and copying it I just feel like I cheated.  The satisfaction comes from doing it myself.
This. Very much this for me too.

And this is precisely why I started hating the Sonny games.  The third one (I think it was the third one) was like "new area, new boss, go respec your entire skill sheet.  What, you liked self-healing? Too bad, you need fire resistance XIV now."

The worst part was that my desired build worked against 90% of every zone. It was only against bosses that I'd have trouble. So it felt like I wasn't high enough level.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2017, 12:19:02 AM »
If you mean the iOS game, that's Sonny 3 (or simply called Sonny). But you cannot respec in resistances at all, so I guess you either mean another game (maybe Sonny 2?) or you mean buying new items. Which you would do anyway if you enter a new zone, so.... I think you mean Sonny 2.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2017, 12:36:42 AM »
*Le Google*
Yeah, it was Sonny 2.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2017, 01:17:42 AM »
I wasn't that fond of Sonny 2 anyway compared to the first one. But the Sonny games (even the newest one or even more so) always had a trouble of "You need this type of skill for this boss".

A good example of this is the last boss I fought at Sonny iOS. It was the frost boss who was tanky as hell (50.000 hp compared to your meager 3000-4000 hp) and had two crystals that healed him regulary. He used annyoing debuff attacks like blind, slow and supress (decreases healing received). He also had an ultimate ability (a lot of enemies have somethign liek this) with a long build up time that almost oneshots your entire team. It took me a long time until I realized it does percent damage (probably around 80-90% of your max HP), so no matter how tanky youa re, you always wille nd on the brink of death. Destroying the crystals however will restore your team to full health again, so the key is to use the crystals when he used his ultimate and then kill him as fast as possible.

You can do this trick however only twice (because there are only two crystals and they don't come back). So you either you kill him before that or you pack a LOT of healing which won't help that much anyway because the ultimate also supresses your team, making normal healing ridiculous. I beat him eventually with a combination of slow on him and hastes on my team, so he couldn't do much  with his abilities. But he was troublesome. And a lot of bosses work like that in that game. I like this because it's a challenge for me and it keeps my brain thinking what I can do to improve my performance. However, for a lot of other people this is a turn off. This would include you I assume.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2017, 10:34:36 AM »
And a lot of bosses work like that in that game. I like this because it's a challenge for me and it keeps my brain thinking what I can do to improve my performance. However, for a lot of other people this is a turn off. This would include you I assume.

No, see, that's tactics. That's all tactics.  I mean that in Sonny 2, you'd go into an area and there'd be a lot of guys that did fire damage, and it's like yeah I can put a few points in fire resistance or I can just power through with healing (note: powering through with healing works against ALL types of damage, so why the hell wouldn't I?) only to get to the boss.

Who one-shot-kills characters unless they have 90% resistance to fire.  Which is like, 10 things down the skill tree. Reaching it requires respecing every skill point you have into Fire Resist, with about 3 to 6 left over for your other abilities.

After this fight you go into an area with poison guys, with a poison boss that one-shot-kills unless you have 90% resistance to poison.

Then acid.

Then whatever.

Every area was like that, and when I commented questioning this design (because, mind I wasn't respeccing at all, because I was quite happy with my build) I was told that the game expects you redistribute your skill points every zone, that every zone's boss is unkillable unless you specialize into something at the bottom of the skill tree.  No amount of tactics and strategy will actually swing a fight, it's all about your skill distribution.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2017, 01:02:54 PM »
In Sonny iOS you still need Resistances because areas are sorted after the different elements. However, element resistances are only sold on items and once you reach a new area you want to buy new items anyway, because they have better stats. So I think this isn't that much of a problem there.

I didn't respec at att so far but certain skills are still needed for some of the boss foghts. However, there is no "classic" skill tree like before, most skills are directly open from the start and only a few strong ones are chained to anther skill. You start with Regenerate anyway which you need in any boss fight (because it dispels status effects) and even if you don't get a skill you need, the character that you get at that zone will mostly provide you what you need.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2017, 02:54:45 PM »
Here's an example of prime Darkest Dungeon bullshit in action:

Hag

She gets two actions per turn.

I act. She acts. New Turn, she acts. I act, she acts AGAIN. New turn, she acts yet once more. I act, she acts. New turn. She acts again. Then of course the wonderfully inane mechanic "I'm just gonna do whatever the heck I want, because I went insane". By the way, please don't comment on the fact that I'm just healing. I did that precisely to demonstrate just how stupid this fight is and how utterly bonkers it is to have something as strong as a boss act TWICE every turn. Oh, and did I mention she also CCs one of your party members? Yeah.

This game is infuriatingly badly designed. Two actions per turn should NEVER happen in a turn based game. I might add that this is my third time being destroyed by bullshit mechanics at the Hag. She also seems to have unusually high dodge and bleed resist, as no less than SIX of my bleed attacks where resisted in a row, and she dodged the other five.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 03:01:25 PM by Mánagarmr »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2017, 06:02:43 PM »
Then of course the wonderfully inane mechanic "I'm just gonna do whatever the heck I want, because I went insane".

Aye, this is a huge part of why I lost interest in it to be honest.  Particularly since characters get stressed from walking down a hallway, even.   EVERYTHING stresses them out.  Arent these guys supposed to be professionals or something?   I've seen other games do this very mechanic, and I hated it in those as well.  There's other ways you could have this work other than "goes crazy, does whatever".  The whole mechanic seemed more like it was placed as a thematic thing rather than because it actually worked well as a gameplay element.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2017, 06:58:30 PM »
This game is infuriatingly badly designed. Two actions per turn should NEVER happen in a turn based game. I might add that this is my third time being destroyed by bullshit mechanics at the Hag.
You must LOVE the XCOM 2 expansion's Alien Rulers - they get a turn for every ACTION you side takes (two actions per unit, remember).

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2017, 07:23:06 PM »
Then of course the wonderfully inane mechanic "I'm just gonna do whatever the heck I want, because I went insane".

Aye, this is a huge part of why I lost interest in it to be honest.  Particularly since characters get stressed from walking down a hallway, even.   EVERYTHING stresses them out.  Arent these guys supposed to be professionals or something?   I've seen other games do this very mechanic, and I hated it in those as well.  There's other ways you could have this work other than "goes crazy, does whatever".  The whole mechanic seemed more like it was placed as a thematic thing rather than because it actually worked well as a gameplay element.

No, they aren't professionals. Not even close. Basically you hire the scum that no one wants. And even if some of the characters might seem as "mercenaries", they never had to deal with something like undead, pig mutants, living mushrooms and other hideous stuff. I would shit my pants as well if I had to walk down a dark corridor, not knowing what grotesque monster might jump out from the darkness.
However, it makes no sense it all for some characters. The Occultist basically EMBRACED the dark powers that have risen from the portal and still covers from fear. Shouldn't he be aware of everything he encounters? He uses the stuff himself for gods sake! The abnomination is another good example. It's a monster itself, even if that's not what it wanted, it is now one of them, so how can you be still a coward?If anything at all, THEY shoudl fear you because you turn their strentgh against them.
But besides these examples? Yep, everyone is basically just a coward that was lured in by you with the promise of fortune. You lied of course but now it's too late.

About bosses having two actions per turn: That a thing in some RPGs. Best RPG I know is Final fantasy X but the thing is, EVERYONE can have two turns in a row (or even more) because it has a free turn rotating system. Instead of rounds, the whole fight order is decided by your speed stat, so people with mor speed will appear more often in the turn order than those without. I wish Darkest Dungeon had this as well, but whatever.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2017, 03:25:31 AM »
To be fair, in every other game I've played the speed stat only determines who gets to act *first* in the turn. Not the fact that someone can act first in the turn, then act again at the end of the turn, only to then get first act on the next turn. That's just broken and throws everything about turn balance out the door.

And after yet a few more hours of this game I'm pretty confident that I won't be continuing. The game is designed in such a way that I find it incredibly hard to enjoy myself. There's a really good foundation, superb setting and great presentation. But at it's core the mechanics are just designed by someone who has vastly different goals and ideas of fun than me. I end up being frustrated, angry and annoyed because the game behaves contrary to every good turn-based norm known to man since the late 80's. Perhaps some people feel that "But that's good!" but no, those mechanics from the 80's became prevalent because they worked. Change for the sake of change isn't good and I very much find DDs mechanics to be contrary to fun. To me, that is. There's obviously others who disagree, but as of today I'm personally uninstalling. I gave it a very fair shot and tried very hard to like it, but it just wasn't for me.

Do I regret my purchase? No, I don't. I still think the devs did an admirable job at creating a difficult, Cthulhu-style dungeoncrawl that appealed to a lot of people and their effort should be rewarded.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 03:29:19 AM by Mánagarmr »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2017, 04:20:44 AM »
Then of course the wonderfully inane mechanic "I'm just gonna do whatever the heck I want, because I went insane".

Aye, this is a huge part of why I lost interest in it to be honest.  Particularly since characters get stressed from walking down a hallway, even.   EVERYTHING stresses them out.  Arent these guys supposed to be professionals or something?   I've seen other games do this very mechanic, and I hated it in those as well.  There's other ways you could have this work other than "goes crazy, does whatever".  The whole mechanic seemed more like it was placed as a thematic thing rather than because it actually worked well as a gameplay element.

No, they aren't professionals. Not even close. Basically you hire the scum that no one wants. And even if some of the characters might seem as "mercenaries", they never had to deal with something like undead, pig mutants, living mushrooms and other hideous stuff. I would shit my pants as well if I had to walk down a dark corridor, not knowing what grotesque monster might jump out from the darkness.
However, it makes no sense it all for some characters. The Occultist basically EMBRACED the dark powers that have risen from the portal and still covers from fear. Shouldn't he be aware of everything he encounters? He uses the stuff himself for gods sake! The abnomination is another good example. It's a monster itself, even if that's not what it wanted, it is now one of them, so how can you be still a coward?If anything at all, THEY shoudl fear you because you turn their strentgh against them.
But besides these examples? Yep, everyone is basically just a coward that was lured in by you with the promise of fortune. You lied of course but now it's too late.

About bosses having two actions per turn: That a thing in some RPGs. Best RPG I know is Final fantasy X but the thing is, EVERYONE can have two turns in a row (or even more) because it has a free turn rotating system. Instead of rounds, the whole fight order is decided by your speed stat, so people with mor speed will appear more often in the turn order than those without. I wish Darkest Dungeon had this as well, but whatever.

Even that though doesnt make sense.

I mean, in a situation like that, someone's response is going to be panicky, yes, but it isnt going to be "scream about donkeys and stab myself in the face", which kinda sums up what happens in this game when someone loses it. 

As an example that'd make a hell of alot more sense, take a gun using character, right?  They're perfectly normal most of the time, but when you get them stressed out, instead of trying to glue their gun onto their head as a hat, their accuracy takes a massive blow (they're panicking too hard to aim properly) and they cant hit enemies past a certain distance whatsoever.  You have a character who is still very messed up, in a state that is to be avoided, but A: it makes more sense, and B: it's less frustrating than simply turning him into a walking ball of RNG in a game that's already stuffed with it.  You still have SOME functions you can fall back on with him but it's still a big blow that you need to avoid.

That, and getting rid of the whole "absolutely EVERYTHING causes stress" bit would also help.  These guys get stressed out if they look at a flower too hard.  It doesnt even result from bad player choices:  It results from pure RNG.  Most of the "choices" you make are binary yes/no sorts with no strategy to them, and when they go bad, OMG BAD EFFECT which usually amounts to a big pile of stress.  If it happened as a result of a bad strategic decision, that'd be a whole different matter.

Still doesnt make much sense from a thematic point of view, either.  What business do these idiots have in a foul dungeon if the mere thought of a small poodle sends them running for the hills?  How did they ever develop those skills they have when they're THAT bloody paranoid?

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2017, 06:36:35 AM »
That, and getting rid of the whole "absolutely EVERYTHING causes stress" bit would also help.  These guys get stressed out if they look at a flower too hard.  It doesnt even result from bad player choices:  It results from pure RNG.  Most of the "choices" you make are binary yes/no sorts with no strategy to them, and when they go bad, OMG BAD EFFECT which usually amounts to a big pile of stress.  If it happened as a result of a bad strategic decision, that'd be a whole different matter.
You've got a point here. I do remember thinking that things I encounter on the way were almost *always* without fail too much of a risk to bother with. Sure I get a couple of extra thousand gold, but at the cost of a costly disease, bad trait or losing 15 HP to bleed/blight? Heck no.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Darkest Dungeon has been released today
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2017, 11:34:26 AM »
Here's an example of prime Darkest Dungeon bullshit in action:

Hag

She gets two actions per turn.

I act. She acts. New Turn, she acts. I act, she acts AGAIN. New turn, she acts yet once more. I act, she acts. New turn. She acts again. Then of course the wonderfully inane mechanic "I'm just gonna do whatever the heck I want, because I went insane". By the way, please don't comment on the fact that I'm just healing. I did that precisely to demonstrate just how stupid this fight is and how utterly bonkers it is to have something as strong as a boss act TWICE every turn. Oh, and did I mention she also CCs one of your party members? Yeah.

This game is infuriatingly badly designed. Two actions per turn should NEVER happen in a turn based game. I might add that this is my third time being destroyed by bullshit mechanics at the Hag. She also seems to have unusually high dodge and bleed resist, as no less than SIX of my bleed attacks where resisted in a row, and she dodged the other five.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Hag gets to attack twice because she's literally taking up two spaces. You might as well consider her two enemies, so obviously two individual enemies will get their own attacks. In several other boss fights you'll have 4 actual opponents and they'll all get their own turn. If you wouldn't complain about that then I don't know why you would complain about an enemy who is double the size of a regular monster attacking twice.

If you had consulted the wiki first you'd know that it's a very bad idea to bring a Leper to this boss fight. Since you need to attack the rear two spaces, you need to use party members which specialize against attacking the back line. I think Leper doesn't even have an attack which does not hit one of the front two spaces.

In any case if you just ignore the pot completely and keep hammering the Witch with your backline attacks you'll win very quickly without much trouble. The "trap" that players fall into is attacking the pot, which is essentially invincible and a waste of turns to focus. You simply have to accept the fact that you'll be fighting a party member down.

In terms of the stress mechanic, again this is only a problem until you understand how to deal with it. You may not believe it but once you understand this mechanic it becomes almost a non-factor on all but the hardest, longest dungeons. In many cases I began to finish runs in which my characters had less stress than what they started with.

I realize that the learning curve for this game is brutal, and maybe I'm just a masochist, but once you begin to understand what you're doing I can honestly say it's one of the most hardcore and rewarding gaming experiences you can have.

Anyway, the reason I made this post after so long is because DD just released its Radiant mode, which makes the game significantly shorter, and from what I've read, more accessible to players.
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