Author Topic: Controversial report claims DotA 2 has overtaken LoL in players (is wrong btw)  (Read 4700 times)

Offline Wingflier

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http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/04/11/dota-2-most-played-report-challenged-by-riot-we-investigate/

I found this article very interesting.

I don't understand why this company (DFC) would release a report like this with such bad information.

What I *DO* find interesting however is that DotA 2 can even be compared to LoL's playerbase, considering that it is rarely advertised on Steam, and is still in an invite-only beta.

Based on what I hear from most LoL connoisseurs, LoL's streamlined simplicity and newbie friendly mechanics make it a game much more appealing to a considerably larger audience.

However, it seems that DotA 2's added complexity for the sake of depth and skill approach may yet prove that theory wrong.

What do you guys think? Who will come out on top?
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Offline RCIX

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Meh, as far as I can tell its information gathered from stuff like Xfire. AKA, not a complete picture.

My biased opinion, of course, is League will maintain its lead. Simply because Dota and its current community will continue to snub its greatest potential audience by not fixing the scores of glaringly bad for regular players design choices.
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Offline Aklyon

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Invite-only beta implies theres actually a limited amount of invites :P

Offline Wingflier

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Invite-only beta implies theres actually a limited amount of invites :P
I didn't mean to imply that. Even though it's quite easy at this point to get invited, you still have to ask.

And, like I said, Valve is using very little of its resources to advertise the game in its current state. Riot advertises LoL more than any other game I've probably ever seen, except possibly Blizzard games.

When Valve is ready, if they wanted, they could put DotA 2 into every Steam user's library, and plaster advertisements on the front page for the next 12 months. And that wouldn't cost them a dime since it's their own engine. Imagine how much they attention they could get if they spent the amount that Riot or Blizzard does to advertise it?

So I guess what I'm saying is, they haven't even scratched the surface in terms of how much they are putting it out there or how accessible they're making it in its current beta state.
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Offline Echo35

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As far as the data goes, I have no idea why they went with XFire numbers when you can just log into Dota 2 and it shows you the number of unique players this month right on the front page. Which, for the record, is at the moment very slightly higher than 3,111,000. Which is a large number, considering it's not technically "out", but it's not as big as LoL.

As for the complexity, I used to play LoL quite a lot, but I never see myself going back. I got bored sick of LoL after maybe 50-60 hours of playing it, but I'm well over twice that in Dota and have no desire to slow down any time soon. To me, the complexity is what makes it so good. It's the same reason I like AI War so much, you never stop learning. There's also the discussion of how Dota already has more features in it than LoL did/does, but that's another argument (I'm talking about things like how it came out of the box with replay support, and it was a while later until LoL added that, the talk of offline LAN play, voice chat, map whiteboard, custom item builds/guides, etc).

Offline madcow

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The fact that it's on Steam and is being run by Valve as a free game is pretty much all the advertisement DotA2 needs. I don't know if it shows up on the main page or not, but its often in their news section.

Beyond that, I also feel word of mouth is better advertisement for both LoL and DotA2 than any of their paid ads (which I know personally I never pay attention to and don't really notice). Especially from the amount of people that like to compare the two, great word of mouth spread for both games.

Offline Echo35

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The fact that it's on Steam and is being run by Valve as a free game is pretty much all the advertisement DotA2 needs. I don't know if it shows up on the main page or not, but its often in their news section.

It isn't. Technically it's not "out" yet and is invite only, though I put out in quotes because if you want to play, you can get a key easily enough. The player base will bloom once it's actually out certainly, but it's at the point now where if you want in, you can get in.

Offline chemical_art

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The fact that it's on Steam and is being run by Valve as a free game is pretty much all the advertisement DotA2 needs. I don't know if it shows up on the main page or not, but its often in their news section.

It isn't. Technically it's not "out" yet and is invite only, though I put out in quotes because if you want to play, you can get a key easily enough. The player base will bloom once it's actually out certainly, but it's at the point now where if you want in, you can get in.

Well, when invites are literally being given away, unless you are experiencing the internet for the first time, you can find someone to get you an invite. Or if you have more money then brains, you can buy it.
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Offline Wingflier

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As far as the data goes, I have no idea why they went with XFire numbers when you can just log into Dota 2 and it shows you the number of unique players this month right on the front page. Which, for the record, is at the moment very slightly higher than 3,111,000. Which is a large number, considering it's not technically "out", but it's not as big as LoL.

As for the complexity, I used to play LoL quite a lot, but I never see myself going back. I got bored sick of LoL after maybe 50-60 hours of playing it, but I'm well over twice that in Dota and have no desire to slow down any time soon. To me, the complexity is what makes it so good. It's the same reason I like AI War so much, you never stop learning. There's also the discussion of how Dota already has more features in it than LoL did/does, but that's another argument (I'm talking about things like how it came out of the box with replay support, and it was a while later until LoL added that, the talk of offline LAN play, voice chat, map whiteboard, custom item builds/guides, etc).
Well even though DotA 2 is in beta, it still offers many more features than LoL has after being released for 3+ years.

Voice chat is a huge one.  People can make 8 million excuses for this, or say that it's not in the spirit of "a nice community", or whatever else, but the fact of the matter is that voice chat increases the amount of teamplay and coordination in a game dramatically.  It rewards people who can lead and coordinate well with their team.  The human voice is vastly more effective at getting people to listen than anonymous text over the screen, which can often be ignored on accident in the middle of a heated battle or laning phase.  If voice chat was really that prone to abuse, Riot could leave it off by default (like all chat is right now), but turn it on for those people who want to work better with their team.

LoL still doesn't have an official replay system yet...DotA has a replay system that saves every replay of every matchmaking game played, and then makes it available to the public for later viewing, while also keeping track of the stats and players of the match.  Even if Riot releases a client-based replay system within the next year, I somehow doubt it will have anywhere near this functionality. It will probably only record your own matches, which you can then watch later, but you can't look through a database of millions of others on a whim.

In addition to that, DotA 2's spectating mode is top notch. Not only can you follow each individual player's actual in-game camera and mouse-clicks, which is cool enough (I think it's called POV camera). You can also follow any official Caster's camera movements. Or you can manually control the camera, or put it on auto-direct. It doesn't end there though, while you're watching the game, the broadcaster system is integrated into the spectator system, so you can listen to your favorite caster speak, in real time, while watching the game.

It's basically better than watching a Stream in every way.  It's an INTERACTIVE stream, you still get to hear the broadcaster's voice, but you have complete control over the camera, the graphics are not diminished in any way, and you have complete control over the game's information at any given time.

Another thing DotA 2 has is item resale.  If you buy an item accidentally you have 15 seconds within buying it to sell it back.  In games like these, where every second counts, you're very often rushing through the shop trying to get everything you need before you're off again. One small misclick can end in disaster. It seems like I accidentally buy something on accident in every game of LoL or DotA, but in LoL I just have to resell it and take a significant loss which has actually hurt me really badly on multiple occasions. In DotA 2 I can sell it back for full price within a certain timeframe.  For me at least, this is a huge feature.

From what I've played of both game's, DotA 2's bots are much superior to LoL's as well.  For one thing, they have 5 difficulty settings (the final one being "unfair"), which gives players a much more diverse level of "skill" to choose from. An "unfair" bot is probably equal to a mediocre player in terms of overall competence, so if a person were to spend the time to conquer this level of difficulty before entering noob-level competitive play, they would be pretty far ahead of the curve.

In other words, DotA 2 definitely wins in the features category by a landslide.  Being able to submit your own skin designs, rate the skin designs of other players, and have your designs put into the game (if they are rated highly) is amazing.  Being able to create your own individualized skins in game by mixing and matching pieces from all different sets is also extremely cool.  Being able to trade skin pieces (such as swords or gear) with your friends, and commonly getting pieces for free just by playing are also among some of the awesome features the game offers.

Quote
Well, when invites are literally being given away, unless you are experiencing the internet for the first time, you can find someone to get you an invite. Or if you have more money then brains, you can buy it.
That still doesn't take away from the fact that only the people seeking to play the game are going to be asking for invites.  You're ignoring the power of advertising and a game which is open to everybody without having to request an invite.

Basically the only people playing DotA 2 now are the people who played DotA 1 or who were interested in the genre enough to get involved. However, when the game goes live, a lot of people who have never heard about it, or who weren't interested enough to sign up for the beta, and who have an account on Steam, will be introduced to the game.

A lot of people may be interested in it already, but just don't like playing games that are in beta.  I don't blame them, I've had my impressions of many-a-game ruined by its unfinished beta state. Though to be fair, DotA 2 is in REALLY good shape for a beta, but if you had never tried it you wouldn't know that.

I'd venture to say that the majority of PC gamers know either very little or nothing about DotA 2.  I've asked a lot of PC gamers on my campus who play League of Legends about it, and the just kind of look at me with a blank stare..."What's a 'Doe' 'tA'?"

I think it's a little more than foolish to think that its playerbase won't explode once it's officially released, with all the non-cosmetic content completely free.  It is the first and only ARTS/MOBA that I know of that is a completely even playing-field from minute one, and I think that will be appealing to a lot of people which are sick of the micro-transaction money-buys-power system.

I guess we'll see though.

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Offline chemical_art

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*yawn*

I just don't have the energy to get upset over things like this. I've seen this movie too many times. It has become stale.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 01:42:43 am by chemical_art »
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Offline Wingflier

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It's not an argument dude, I've already expressed the fact that I like both games. I'm in Gold II of League of Legends, I wouldn't have put the time and effort into the game to progress that far if I didn't like the game.

I just think it's fascinating. I hear the argument all the time that LoL's stripped-down and streamlined style is made for the masses...and it is.

How insane would it be if the unquantifiably more complex game came out on top? It would be a clear message to developers that not all gamers are satisfied with being placated or having the mechanics cater to them. Some people want a challenge...some people like getting their butts handed to them over and over until they finally conquer the extreme learning curve. Hell, not just some people, a HUGE percentage of people. It would change just about everything we know about how most big designers these days make their games. Games which are complex for the sake of complexity are generally frowned on by big-name developers.

It could change everything...
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Offline RCIX

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Here's my theory: Dota is abusing its "moba-ness". Mobas have this strange ability to vacuum up mass quantities of people because of he curious intersection of genres it sits at. Dota 2, if it does indeed get popular, will be so more because it's a high polish/production quality moba that's not LoL and more people will suffer through the complexity and clunkiness than appreciate it.
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Offline Wingflier

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That's an interesting take...it seems silly that people would continue to play a game they didn't enjoy, or which existed in a market with much better alternatives.

Then again, I think if a game like Natural Selection 2 was made by a AAA developer, with the same kind of support, advertising, and console ports, it could possibly compete with of the big games like COD or Battlefield.

So it's a decent point, it's just that in this case, both games are made by triple A developers, have decent engines, and plenty of advertising to go around.  Once DotA 2 is released, one would think that over time most people who play it would begin to hear more about the alternatives.

If for no other reason than the fact that Valve is not afraid to frequently post news about their competitors (the original article I posted I found on Steam).
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Offline RCIX

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We're sort of talking on a relative level; Dota still has enough right that you don't notice its glaring flaws until you've sunk a lot of time into it, and particularly compare it to its competitor(s). It also does have its own niche as a spectator sport, since its mechanical design functions better (or less bad at least) when you have 2 sets of highly coordinated/practiced people with voice chat fighting each other.

I'll spare you my "mobas will be broken so long as they expect random people to queue together" rant though =p
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Offline Wingflier

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Quote
We're sort of talking on a relative level; Dota still has enough right that you don't notice its glaring flaws until you've sunk a lot of time into it, and particularly compare it to its competitor(s).
Interesting, I've always perceived it as just the opposite.

DotA 2 is much harder to get into than LoL, and most players will notice its "flaws" right away:  Extreme complexity, unforgiving mechanics, huge learning curve, massive time tax, etc. However, in the end you're rewarded with a game that where individual player skill and mastery, as well as team coordination, has an unmistakable effect on each game.

For LoL it's just the opposite. The game starts you out very slowly and gradually on "noobie island" (that's what Riot devs call it).  Instead of having ~105 heroes available to you, you have 10, and most of your opponents also have the same 10. Runes and Masteries are not even a factor for a long time...probably 100 playing hours or more. It's instantly appealing to you, the "cartoony", nostalgic feel sucks you right in.

It's not until you hit level 30 that you truly begin to see all of the games flaws and shortcomings. The advantages of having more champions and rune pages in draft mode, the imbalanced nature of champions (some are just blatantly better than others, and some are nearly useless), the stale, farm-heavy and low-kill mechanics of top-level competitive play, etc.

In addition, you begin to see how little impact you have on the game as an individual player.  In DotA 2 nobody denies it - 1 person can carry the whole game.  In LoL, a single player is much less likely to make a difference.  That doesn't necessarily make the either game more team-based, it's just like comparing a 4-man relay race to kayaking team race.  In the former sport each individual "player" can make a much bigger difference than in the latter sport, where individuality can cause problems, even though they both require teamwork.

Anyway, it's one of those competitions where I'm rooting for both sides.  I think both games are great, and they both definitely have their own strengths and weaknesses. I would just be amazed if the undeniably more complex game came out on top.
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