Author Topic: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic  (Read 21587 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #180 on: February 13, 2016, 05:07:12 am »
I was surprised to see my how my comments generated a shift of focus in this thread, so I will elucidate something I have implied.

If someone was simply interested in theft, it is easier to steal from a place of commerce then from a personal dwelling. Laws where I live at least provide a very clear and distinct punishment between these crimes.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #181 on: February 13, 2016, 02:43:24 pm »
I'm sorry, what? Yeah, sure, why don't we just execute everyone who commits a crime then because they're CLEARLY not worth their lives. Oh, hey! No jaywalking! *BLAM*

Are you serious? I mean, FOR REAL serious?

Edit: I'm sorry, I just have to rant some more here because this quite frankly disgusts me. How in the everyliving flames of hell can you value a bloody TV set over a LIFE? This person might get sent to jail and, as Misery said, actually change their ways and become a productive member of society, or they might not and remain a criminal for the rest of their life. But who the F*#¤ are YOU to decide who lives and not? REALLY?

Don't be absurd here.  Home invasion is more akin to sexual assault.  Having everything your home means to you, violated by some random stranger, is a serious kind of event.  It's not about the material contents at all.

My home is literally a sanctuary from the rest of the world.  It's the only place I can find any peace of mind.  I won't let anyone just take that way from me or my family. 


I'll have to agree with what Managarmr said on this one.   One way or another, you'd still be ending someone's life over a material possession. That's the situation:  Jerk tries to steal TV, you shoot jerk.  No matter how you reason it, that sentence is exactly how it happens.  You'd be ending someone's life because of their determination to steal some damn object.

I can understand the thing about home invasion, but if you react like that, you're letting emotion, and ONLY emotion, control you rather than logic and reasoning.  I mean, really.  There's a reason why the penalty for burglary isnt automatic death penalty here.


At least understand though that not everyone sees home invasion the way you do.  I know my own family well enough to know that they would think the way I do on this; the only chance any criminal would die upon entering THIS house is if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.  But for a simple burglar as is being discussed here?  Ye gods, no.  Let them take the stupid TV if they want it that badly.  As with the braindead moron that broke into my car, they'd get caught sooner or later, and before long, we'd be seeing them rotting in jail for awhile.  Seems a fitting punishment to me; they want to break into a home so much?  How about putting them in a home they cant break OUT of for awhile?  Possibly a LONG while.

And even if they did get away with it... it's just a damn TV (or whatever).  And then, either way, we'd be able to examine what is, in the end, partly OUR mistake:  our house should have been more secure to begin with, to simply prevent that from happening.  In the future, it would be.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #182 on: February 13, 2016, 03:32:26 pm »
I'll have to agree with what Managarmr said on this one.   One way or another, you'd still be ending someone's life over a material possession. That's the situation:  Jerk tries to steal TV, you shoot jerk.  No matter how you reason it, that sentence is exactly how it happens.  You'd be ending someone's life because of their determination to steal some damn object.
I can understand the thing about home invasion, but if you react like that, you're letting emotion, and ONLY emotion, control you rather than logic and reasoning.  I mean, really.  There's a reason why the penalty for burglary isnt automatic death penalty here.
It's not just theft. There's the aspect of intrusion, the incalculable risk to the safety of anyone within the house, and the necessity of ensuring negative consequences for this act of home invasion. There's plenty of more-logical-than-emotional reasons for not just hiding and letting oneself be robbed:
  • The house may not contain any useful hiding space
  • The burglar might find you yet, and react violently
  • The burglar might in fact not be a thief but a rapist/serial killer/crazy person
  • Maybe you can't afford to be robbed
  • If he gets away, he will rob and possibly endanger others
  • If he gets away, it will - broadly speaking - incentivize further break-ins by others
  • Maybe you just personally do not tolerate such violations of your home.
  • Maybe you don't trust the police/insurance company/society/the state to clean up the mess for you.
On the other hand, maybe the matter of "Home" as a personal and safe space does not matter as much to you as it does to others. Which is fine.

At least understand though that not everyone sees home invasion the way you do.  I know my own family well enough to know that they would think the way I do on this; the only chance any criminal would die upon entering THIS house is if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.  But for a simple burglar as is being discussed here?  Ye gods, no.  Let them take the stupid TV if they want it that badly.  As with the braindead moron that broke into my car, they'd get caught sooner or later, and before long, we'd be seeing them rotting in jail for awhile.  Seems a fitting punishment to me; they want to break into a home so much?  How about putting them in a home they cant break OUT of for awhile?  Possibly a LONG while.
As long as it's just a clean theft with no encounter, nothing of personal value was stolen, the insurance company pays up, and the police gets the perp, sure - then all went according to plan. You trust that plan more than I do, it seems, and if that works out for you then I have no problem with it. But you also understand that others have a different view on the issue, yes? Do you deny us all legitimacy in our way of thinking?

And even if they did get away with it... it's just a damn TV (or whatever).  And then, either way, we'd be able to examine what is, in the end, partly OUR mistake:  our house should have been more secure to begin with, to simply prevent that from happening.  In the future, it would be.
Learning from one's mistakes is always appropriate, but burglar-proofing a house is pretty difficult.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #183 on: February 13, 2016, 04:24:17 pm »
I wouldn't worry about Cinth. He still can't say what he was proud of.

It was in the second post I put in this thread.  I'm sorry that you can't put one and one together.  You need a research study to do that for you? Here you go, 1 + 1 = 3.

I'm still waiting for a reference. ;D I wonder if there isn't one? :D

Common sense gun control regulation will help fix the problem.

Not a reference from me, that was my first contribution to this thread.

Gun control regulation only hinders regular people who might want to own a firearm for whatever reason.  If you want a firearm in the US there are so many ways around what controls there are, it's silly.  This isn't a problem that you can legislate away.

Hey Cinth, this is your second post in this thread and you don't say what your heritage is. So, its understandable why Cyborg hasn't figured it out. Now, I have a guess based on what he said prior to this post but I'm not going to assume.

Having gone back and read the body of this thread, I no longer wish to contribute to this mess.  I'm going to park my happy South Carolinian ass somewhere else.

But, it might be the third post.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #184 on: February 13, 2016, 05:18:19 pm »

It's not just theft. There's the aspect of intrusion, the incalculable risk to the safety of anyone within the house, and the necessity of ensuring negative consequences for this act of home invasion. There's plenty of more-logical-than-emotional reasons for not just hiding and letting oneself be robbed:


This. It is much more then just material, it is psychological. If you argue that a home invasion is fine as long as you get your stuff back, then you are missing the larger negative impact. It would be like saying being robbed with a weapon is fine as long as you get your stuff back. Being the recipient of the latter, I can assure you it is not. It leaves trauma that takes many years to recover. If my home was to be invaded, I would have to move.

Humans are not just creatures of logic. If they were then most of the violent crimes would not happen. But they do, because humans are emotion as well. To simply say lose emotion is the mental equivalent of plugging your ears from a discussion.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #185 on: February 13, 2016, 05:50:26 pm »
I'll have to agree with what Managarmr said on this one.   One way or another, you'd still be ending someone's life over a material possession. That's the situation:  Jerk tries to steal TV, you shoot jerk.  No matter how you reason it, that sentence is exactly how it happens.  You'd be ending someone's life because of their determination to steal some damn object.
I can understand the thing about home invasion, but if you react like that, you're letting emotion, and ONLY emotion, control you rather than logic and reasoning.  I mean, really.  There's a reason why the penalty for burglary isnt automatic death penalty here.
It's not just theft. There's the aspect of intrusion, the incalculable risk to the safety of anyone within the house, and the necessity of ensuring negative consequences for this act of home invasion. There's plenty of more-logical-than-emotional reasons for not just hiding and letting oneself be robbed:
  • The house may not contain any useful hiding space
  • The burglar might find you yet, and react violently
  • The burglar might in fact not be a thief but a rapist/serial killer/crazy person
  • Maybe you can't afford to be robbed
  • If he gets away, he will rob and possibly endanger others
  • If he gets away, it will - broadly speaking - incentivize further break-ins by others
  • Maybe you just personally do not tolerate such violations of your home.
  • Maybe you don't trust the police/insurance company/society/the state to clean up the mess for you.
On the other hand, maybe the matter of "Home" as a personal and safe space does not matter as much to you as it does to others. Which is fine.

At least understand though that not everyone sees home invasion the way you do.  I know my own family well enough to know that they would think the way I do on this; the only chance any criminal would die upon entering THIS house is if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.  But for a simple burglar as is being discussed here?  Ye gods, no.  Let them take the stupid TV if they want it that badly.  As with the braindead moron that broke into my car, they'd get caught sooner or later, and before long, we'd be seeing them rotting in jail for awhile.  Seems a fitting punishment to me; they want to break into a home so much?  How about putting them in a home they cant break OUT of for awhile?  Possibly a LONG while.
As long as it's just a clean theft with no encounter, nothing of personal value was stolen, the insurance company pays up, and the police gets the perp, sure - then all went according to plan. You trust that plan more than I do, it seems, and if that works out for you then I have no problem with it. But you also understand that others have a different view on the issue, yes? Do you deny us all legitimacy in our way of thinking?

And even if they did get away with it... it's just a damn TV (or whatever).  And then, either way, we'd be able to examine what is, in the end, partly OUR mistake:  our house should have been more secure to begin with, to simply prevent that from happening.  In the future, it would be.
Learning from one's mistakes is always appropriate, but burglar-proofing a house is pretty difficult.

Ah, you misjudge me though.

I trust basically.... nothing.  I expect screwups and general idiocy from most people (this should be apparent by now), and this includes those in charge.  Or those in any type of company anywhere.  So... I tend to come up with my own solutions. Combined with general paranoia, these solutions tend to be unusual.  For example, considering the possibility of someone actually breaking in to steal things...

My credit card, for instance? Something that'd be very bad to have stolen?  I dont keep it anywhere NORMAL.  Keeping a very important object like that in a place that a burglar would actually look in seems damn silly to me.  They tend to look inside of drawers, cabinets, for example. People keep things inside of furniture. Or on furniture.  I'd put it in the damn fuse box in the basement before I'd put it in one of those, but even then... that's still not enough.  Back at my mom's house, which is a very old place, I used to take things like that and stick them IN THE WALLS.  Being an old, old house, there were spots, typically in awkward locations, where holes like that would be (as a result, tend to get alot of insects and things in there... ah, those huge centipedes in particular...).  What kind of burglar focuses on looking for tiny random holes in walls (which, typically, are behind things, due to a rather silly amount of furniture in that house).  And those are just examples that come to mind as I type this.  Other things are in other very bizarre locations, while other objects, much less important to me (like TVs or whatever) tempt from obvious locations.   I kept some stuff inside a very obviously broken modem, once.  Or there was the time I kept money inside what I always refer to as the "cord ball".  A gigantic mass of random cables in the shape of a ball (seroiusly, it's ENORMOUS; there's an entire keyboard completely wedged inside it so you cant even see it.... among other things; no, I dont know how it formed.  I'm pretty sure there's an entire Power Glove assemblage inside it too).  The thing is very heavy and very obviously formed entirely of useless stuff (which is impossible to extract without silly amounts of time being spent).  With a bit of effort, I could get my arm into it.... so I kept things in there.

That type of thinking can make it VERY difficult for anyone to find important objects, but UNIMPORTANT objects that are yet theoretically worth something (but also almost always heavy) tempt from other places.  Dont get me wrong, it'd suck to lose a TV or maybe the iPad or whatever; in my case I can just go get another one without trouble, but if I didn't have the money for it... oh well.  It's not THAT damn important. Hardly important enough to kill someone over.  I'd just do without for awhile and save up for a new one.  And the cops would either catch the guy, or not. 

That other people dont think to do things like this is... certainly not my problem.  But my point is, there's always additional things that can be done.... if you can think them up.  Gotta really get CREATIVE to truly accomplish things like that.  And I can get alot more creative (and alot more weird) than those ideas above.  Were my living situation different than it is... I'd still be coming up with stuff like that, but it'd be accomplished differently.

In addition, not much money is actually kept in the house.  Even if someone were to come and manage to actually find all of what's here...  they'd get maybe $60, which I dont care about one bit (and before someone says "well if you were poor maybe 60 would be alot", I'd say "if we were poor, we'd just keep way less in here, and I'd get even more bizarre about hiding it").  Perhaps more if they wanted to take the ridiculous amount of time to gather the random change that's scattered around my room (I hate dealing with coins like pennies and such so they just end up everywhere).

And again, that's just the start.  There's.... way more that can be done.  Those are just examples.

Rather than just thinking "OMG GUN" and going BANG.  If it ever came down to doing THAT to protect my stuff... it'd only mean that I've run out of ideas.  Not how others would view it of course, but I have my own unique (and often odd) standards that I set for myself.   I used to use this same sort of thinking to deal with bullies back in highschool (and they were VERY numerous; damn stupid school, that).  By senior year, none of them were dumb enough to get in my way... but I *never* used violence or broke any rules.  Why do that, when I could get creative instead?  That's alot more fun anyway.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #186 on: February 13, 2016, 06:49:47 pm »
But, it might be the third post.

I guessed at the number.  Not a bad guess for being about a week old.  Even so, I'm not just going to spell it out for him.  If he was as intelligent as he makes himself out to be, he wouldn't have had any question as to what comment I was referring to (of his).


@ Misery:  It isn't about the material possessions in the house at all.  It's about the people inside it and their safety and peace of mind.  You are the most valuable object in your home.  The one item that can't be replaced.  Is that not worth the most affirmative defense?
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #187 on: February 13, 2016, 07:11:22 pm »
But, it might be the third post.

I guessed at the number.  Not a bad guess for being about a week old.  Even so, I'm not just going to spell it out for him.  If he was as intelligent as he makes himself out to be, he wouldn't have had any question as to what comment I was referring to (of his).


@ Misery:  It isn't about the material possessions in the house at all.  It's about the people inside it and their safety and peace of mind.  You are the most valuable object in your home.  The one item that can't be replaced.  Is that not worth the most affirmative defense?

Oh I dont disagree that family and such is the most important.  I'm just giving examples of the type of thinking that can improve things, that creativity that can accomplish things.  In those cases in the examples, I use it to keep important things out of the hands of unpleasant jerkbags.  I would take the exact same type of thinking and apply it to general defense and prevention of entry as well.  Keeping people from getting in, in the first place.  May as well make it as ridiculously difficult as possible to do.  There's no reason to shoot at a dangerous person if they cant even find a way in.

Particularly if that stuff is combined with more traditional methods of preventing entry.

My point is, there's ALWAYS another way.  Most people though dont bother looking for those options.

Besides, I dont see guns as the most affirmative defense.  I see them as a pointless risk.  I wouldnt allow them into this house BECAUSE I care about my family too much.  Nobody here is law enforcement or military (which are the only sorts I would *ever* trust with a gun).  Nobody here has professional training. Hell, I wouldnt trust myself with it. And there are often kids in this house when people come and visit. Sure as bloody hell aint taking even the tiniest, most minuscule chance with them.  It's too dangerous, so it's not happening.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #188 on: February 13, 2016, 07:26:07 pm »
That's all fair and well, and you won't see me telling you you're wrong.

But what would you do in case there is a potentially violent intruder while you and perhaps others are at home?
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #189 on: February 13, 2016, 08:04:09 pm »
Hey Cinth, this is your second post in this thread and you don't say what your heritage is. So, its understandable why Cyborg hasn't figured it out. Now, I have a guess based on what he said prior to this post but I'm not going to assume.

I have a suspicion he is actually embarrassed of his heritage because he's unwilling to say what it is. And I think that's telling. It's just like the guy that has yet to reference his Obama accusations in this thread. ::)

So, still waiting on what the mystery secret heritage is.
Still waiting on references.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #190 on: February 13, 2016, 08:08:43 pm »
Well, my own natural tendencies if a frantic situation were to instantly develop (as in, an unavoidable confrontation) would be two things:

1, use every conceivable object as a weapon.  Even something like a magazine, flopped right into someone's face, blocks vision for a critical moment.  At a distance, fling things.  It doesnt really matter what, exactly, is nearby; it can be used in some way.

2. Cause as much distracting and confusing chaos as possible.

And 3, if close, go absolutely berserk.

And then, if able to get the guy knocked down / stunned, well... break his legs, for a start.  Render him unable to attack again and unable to get away before police arrive.  Partly because it's practical, and partly because I get *really* unpleasant if pushed too far.  A good heavy blow to the crotch (or 5 heavy blows) would likely follow.

That, of course, is assuming that a direct confrontation occurred.  Needless to say, the priority BEFORE that would be to avoid it happening. Absolutely best to NOT get into that confrontation. Try to remain out of the guy's way; if he's there to steal, then, whatever, let him steal. Regardless of where he enters, there's all sorts of shiny things to grab nearby. Dont engage unless necessary. Stay in positions where he wouldnt be the one doing the sudden surprise thing, if that's the prudent thing to do.  Exit via windows if possible.  The key would be to think up the correct option.

It'd be a difficult and dangerous situation, with NOTHING guaranteed, but that's typically how I'd approach the various parts of it.  I am at least good at not getting panicked in situations; something taught to me just by driving, actually.  Panic in a bad situation in a car... a good way to end up dead.  And I've had my close calls (and one car destroyed) with that and learned THAT lesson quick.  Not fun, that.


Hey Cinth, this is your second post in this thread and you don't say what your heritage is. So, its understandable why Cyborg hasn't figured it out. Now, I have a guess based on what he said prior to this post but I'm not going to assume.

I have a suspicion he is actually embarrassed of his heritage because he's unwilling to say what it is. And I think that's telling. It's just like the guy that has yet to reference his Obama accusations in this thread. ::)

So, still waiting on what the mystery secret heritage is.
Still waiting on references.


You know, I hadnt spoken up before, but... is this constant back and forth between you and Cinth really necessary?  A basic debate is one thing, which is what most people here are doing.  Nothing at all wrong with that, it leads to interesting discussion, and MOSTLY (occaisional flare here and there), this thread has been civil.  But this sounds like it's getting a bit nasty between you two and it seems to have kept up for awhile.  Is there really a need for that?

We need like, some pictures of kittens or something here, make sure everyone stays calm...

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #191 on: February 13, 2016, 08:45:54 pm »

You know, I hadnt spoken up before, but... is this constant back and forth between you and Cinth really necessary?  A basic debate is one thing, which is what most people here are doing.  Nothing at all wrong with that, it leads to interesting discussion, and MOSTLY (occaisional flare here and there), this thread has been civil.  But this sounds like it's getting a bit nasty between you two and it seems to have kept up for awhile.  Is there really a need for that?

Yes, it is. I see nothing uncivil about it. It's relevant to the topic.

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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #192 on: February 13, 2016, 11:52:51 pm »
Don't mess with Misery.
Alright then, you'd try to hide, then toss things at the robber, then try to beat him senseless and disable him. That's reasonable enough; though you're at quite a disadvantage if he's armed.

Assuming that hiding or flight fail for some reason - small apartment, too many kids, fifth storey, you were found out - let's discuss some other scenarios:
  • What if there's two of them?
  • What if there's weak family members in the house who cannot defend themselves?
  • What if you are too old, ill or otherwise weak to defend yourself?
I understand your argument that people around you cannot be trusted with guns, but are you not giving up a potentially invaluable advantage that might be the deciding factor in whether you can defend your life and the lives of those around you?

We need like, some pictures of kittens or something here, make sure everyone stays calm...
I did a quick search for "Civil Kitten" pictures. It did not turn out well.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #193 on: February 14, 2016, 01:09:35 am »
Don't mess with Misery.
Alright then, you'd try to hide, then toss things at the robber, then try to beat him senseless and disable him. That's reasonable enough; though you're at quite a disadvantage if he's armed.

Assuming that hiding or flight fail for some reason - small apartment, too many kids, fifth storey, you were found out - let's discuss some other scenarios:
  • What if there's two of them?
  • What if there's weak family members in the house who cannot defend themselves?
  • What if you are too old, ill or otherwise weak to defend yourself?
I understand your argument that people around you cannot be trusted with guns, but are you not giving up a potentially invaluable advantage that might be the deciding factor in whether you can defend your life and the lives of those around you?


I wouldnt want to escalate things with a gun anyway.  Me, anyone in the family... at anything resembling a distance, we'd just miss anyway.  WAY more likely to hurt ourselves or each other than an intruder; the things would literally serve no function aside from encouraging the intruder to go bonkers.  Just too risky for nothing resembling a benefit (and it gets even worse if someone else panics and potentially ends up in the path of the shot).  Choosing basically any other action would end up working better.

As I said, the prime priority first would be to AVOID violence. Only attacking the guy if absolutely necessary; there may be a variety of things I could do in a fight, but I'd rather not take the silly risk of inciting an intruder in the first place.  Stay out of his way, sneak out, avoid him...

And if there were more than one?  Gun wouldnt help anyway.  You cant point at two targets at once.  Whichever one you're NOT pointing at is free to attack, and the sight of the gun may in fact be THE thing that causes them to get violent in the first place.  Even more worthless if they're coming from completely different directions.

Quote
We need like, some pictures of kittens or something here, make sure everyone stays calm...
I did a quick search for "Civil Kitten" pictures. It did not turn out well.


....do I even want to know?

I'm so tempted now to try it myself, but I know the internet too well.  There's always that risk of horrors that should be seen by nobody.  Image searches are scary things.  Or just utterly insane.  Or both.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #194 on: February 14, 2016, 03:45:01 am »
Hey Cinth, this is your second post in this thread and you don't say what your heritage is. So, its understandable why Cyborg hasn't figured it out. Now, I have a guess based on what he said prior to this post but I'm not going to assume.

I have a suspicion he is actually embarrassed of his heritage because he's unwilling to say what it is. And I think that's telling. It's just like the guy that has yet to reference his Obama accusations in this thread. ::)

So, still waiting on what the mystery secret heritage is.
Still waiting on references.

And he actually found it for you and you still didn't see it.  You either trolling hard or just blind.  Either way, you are part of the problem.  Also, it's not my job to show you how you fucked up.  Take a moment and figure it out for yourself.  Maybe it will make you a bit more tolerable as a human being.


You know, I hadnt spoken up before, but... is this constant back and forth between you and Cinth really necessary?  A basic debate is one thing, which is what most people here are doing.  Nothing at all wrong with that, it leads to interesting discussion, and MOSTLY (occaisional flare here and there), this thread has been civil.  But this sounds like it's getting a bit nasty between you two and it seems to have kept up for awhile.  Is there really a need for that?

Yes, it is. I see nothing uncivil about it. It's relevant to the topic.
Your comments earlier in this thread weren't relevant when you brought it up.  It still isn't relevant to the gun control discussion.

You know, I hadnt spoken up before, but... is this constant back and forth between you and Cinth really necessary?  A basic debate is one thing, which is what most people here are doing.  Nothing at all wrong with that, it leads to interesting discussion, and MOSTLY (occaisional flare here and there), this thread has been civil.  But this sounds like it's getting a bit nasty between you two and it seems to have kept up for awhile.  Is there really a need for that?

We need like, some pictures of kittens or something here, make sure everyone stays calm...
No it wasn't.  All he needed to do was apologize for sticking is foot in his mouth. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.