Author Topic: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic  (Read 21573 times)

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2015, 04:19:58 pm »
You think that Germany "behaves" is the result of the US? Don't make me laugh.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2015, 04:50:13 pm »
Germany, Japan, Korea - these are all good examples of places where the US remained for decades, and forced the local governments to behave.  Remaining in Iraq for 50 years would have done a great deal to keep the peace and form a strong central government, one that would possibly have outlasted the US departure.  By leaving in less than 10 years, we all but guaranteed that the three major groups in Iraq would fall out in short order.

You want to pay for 50 years of occupation in Iraq? Both in blood and money? I don't. Not a lot of people were willing to pay that price either. If they were, they should have been far more vocal about it. Instead, even the Republican side of things didn't want to do anything in Iraq, just pull out and try to undo the damage that was done. The soldiers that were killed. I can't recall a massive push by the Republicans to stay in Iraq. I recall having many a discussion during Bush's and Obama's terms that we needed to be out of Iraq, period end of story. At least, that was with Republicans and Democrats over here. Maybe some politicians were saying something else but that clearly wasn't popular. At least if it was, I never saw a rally for it.

If America was to stay in Iraq for 50 years, it would need the support of the people and the people said GTFO. Even Bush was withdrawing a large majority of the troops out during his 2nd term. It is very likely that had it been a Republican president who took over, he would have continued the withdraw. But, this gets into theories and speculation. So, who the hell knows what would have happened.

Germany, Japan and Korea are by comparison special cases. But I'll point out that we didn't stay in Germany the first time around and made sure a strong central government was created. One became created by chance and I guess we realized allowing that to happen again for a third time would have been moronic. Japan's military had been absolutely destroyed by us and we weren't going to allow them to come into power to take revenge. Korea's war was never finished. It's merely in an extended pause.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2015, 04:58:50 pm »
All of my what, gents.

24 hours ago this was a passionate yet productive debate about privately owned guns, the difference between urbanites and countryside people, and psychological aspects related to both.
Now it's...the same sh!t-flinging as everywhere. Feels more like /pol/ than the Arcen forums.

Can someone who actually read all of it summarise how this breakdown happened?
Cyborg took a shot against the Republican party around page 3, Toranth parried, and it's been going on like that ever since.

From my perspective, discussing the political aspect of it though is important. Obviously politics play a big role in this discussion, I don't think anybody can deny that. I also think Toranth and Cyborg have made good points respective of their political parties, and I think that any person belonging to that side would tend to agree.

The difficulty typically comes when people get too wrapped up in their own political views, and then get frustrated when they are making no headway against someone on the opposite side of the spectrum. This comes back to the individuality discussion (see what I did there), in which each person believes their view is well-researched and rational, and the other person is just a brainwashed sheep who hasn't ever considered the evidence or thought for themselves. Every party is equally indoctrinated into what they believe, and also indoctrinated into the belief that their belief is rational. But the failure to recognize that can often cause these discussions to become rather nasty.

You also tend to see this quite a bit in religious debates (of which there's been a small amount of), in which you have two very extreme spectrums, and they are completely incompatible with one another.

Having said that, I'm still really glad to see both sides represented so well, I hope we can just keep things civil as we did for the first half.

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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2015, 05:04:38 pm »
You think that Germany "behaves" is the result of the US? Don't make me laugh.
East Germany, overseen by the USSR, was a brutal police state, one of the most oppressive ones in history.
West Germany, overseen by the US, the UK, and France, was a foreign military dictatorship that transitioned into a first-class democracy.

Damn straight the occupying powers led to the resulting governments.  The fact that Germans are a first world people, with a strong tradition of peaceful governance, does not change that fact.


Germany, Japan, Korea - these are all good examples of places where the US remained for decades, and forced the local governments to behave.  Remaining in Iraq for 50 years would have done a great deal to keep the peace and form a strong central government, one that would possibly have outlasted the US departure.  By leaving in less than 10 years, we all but guaranteed that the three major groups in Iraq would fall out in short order.

You want to pay for 50 years of occupation in Iraq? Both in blood and money? I don't. Not a lot of people were willing to pay that price either. If they were, they should have been far more vocal about it. Instead, even the Republican side of things didn't want to do anything in Iraq, just pull out and try to undo the damage that was done. The soldiers that were killed. I can't recall a massive push by the Republicans to stay in Iraq. I recall having many a discussion during Bush's and Obama's terms that we needed to be out of Iraq, period end of story. At least, that was with Republicans and Democrats over here. Maybe some politicians were saying something else but that clearly wasn't popular. At least if it was, I never saw a rally for it.

If America was to stay in Iraq for 50 years, it would need the support of the people and the people said GTFO. Even Bush was withdrawing a large majority of the troops out during his 2nd term. It is very likely that had it been a Republican president who took over, he would have continued the withdraw. But, this gets into theories and speculation. So, who the hell knows what would have happened.

Germany, Japan and Korea are by comparison special cases. But I'll point out that we didn't stay in Germany the first time around and made sure a strong central government was created. One became created by chance and I guess we realized allowing that to happen again for a third time would have been moronic. Japan's military had been absolutely destroyed by us and we weren't going to allow them to come into power to take revenge. Korea's war was never finished. It's merely in an extended pause.
No, staying in Iraq for 50 years wouldn't have been my first choice.  But once we went in and removed Saddam, it because necessary.  Even though it was unpopular, even though in was expensive, it was something that needed to be done to keep the peace.
We didn't do it, the peace fell apart, and now we have a new nation-state showing levels of violence not seen since WW2.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2015, 07:20:39 pm »
All of my what, gents.

24 hours ago this was a passionate yet productive debate about privately owned guns, the difference between urbanites and countryside people, and psychological aspects related to both.
Now it's...the same sh!t-flinging as everywhere. Feels more like /pol/ than the Arcen forums.

Can someone who actually read all of it summarise how this breakdown happened?
regarding the irac discussion this has turned into? probably when torath brought up the left making the us leave honestly though i wouldn't say any of this looks like shit flinging to me just heated debate no one's insulted each other besides cyborg to torath if this truly had turned venomous i think this post would have been locked from further discussion.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2015, 11:27:13 am »
regarding the irac discussion this has turned into? probably when torath brought up the left making the us leave honestly though i wouldn't say any of this looks like shit flinging to me just heated debate no one's insulted each other besides cyborg to torath if this truly had turned venomous i think this post would have been locked from further discussion.
I guess my standards for sh!t-flinging are a bit strict.

Can we have a little subdebate about subjectivity and objectivity?

IMHO it's pointless to pretend to be more obejctive than subjective, since everyone has their particular situation that naturally colours theirs views. So unless all personal particularities are accounted for, it's hard to get what angle someone's supposedly objective opinions are coming from. What I'm trying to get to is that - is there even a point in having a debate unless we clarify what our common grounds and absolute differences are?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2016, 01:44:55 pm »
Well, I was a bit undecided on the issue of gun control until now, especially with our spirited discussion, but a recent event has sealed the deal for me.

The President, after his recent decision to use his executive power to enforce gun control legislation, invited the NRA to a public debate on live television to express their concerns and opinions on the matter. They declined.

Generally speaking, when one declines to debate their position in a public forum, one can assume that said position is indefensible.

Here is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to call Obama the things they've been saying behind his back since 2008, an opportunity to call him the gun-stealing monkey Antichrist to his face in front of the entire world. And what do they do? They turn it down.

So that's /thread for me. Thanks for the discussion guys.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2016, 01:50:03 pm »
Not an American here, but I'm pretty sure the NRA does not represent all of America's gun owners, while having plenty of its own agendas.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2016, 11:15:03 pm »
Not an American here, but I'm pretty sure the NRA does not represent all of America's gun owners, while having plenty of its own agendas.

It's probably the largest Gun Rights organization in the United States in terms of sheer membership. No, they don't have all of the gun owners in their list, but they are certainly the biggest and loudest of the bunch. And this move to reject the invitation is a coward's move considering that this organization prides itself on being the big man on campus. If I was a member, I would probably leave it for not even trying to do this.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2016, 12:25:58 am »
The NRA is actually a group of organizations, for technical and legal reasons, which are split into two primary purposes:
1)  Political lobbying - that is, attempting to convince state and Federal politicians to support gun rights.
2)  Public education and training.  The NRA sponsors competitions, and teaches shooting, concealed carry, and gun safety classes, as well as history, maintenance, gunsmithing, or hunting classes.
They don't do anything else.  This means they are very efficient - one topic only means concentrated spending - which gives them a much more significant appearance than their actual spending would suggest.

However, the NRA is not a political party.  It does not have politicians, its executives do not run for office.  What, exactly, would the NRA gain out of participating in an event run by the White House and CNN?

Planned Parenthood refused to debate an anti-abortion group on CNN - does this somehow mean that their entire cause is suddenly wrong?

This is normal PR strategy for any organization on any side of the political spectrum.  Only show up to places where you have a friendly environment, because a hostile one will spin your words no matter what.  Remember the (many variants of) the old joke:
Quote
Two boys are playing football at a park in Ann Arbor when one of the boys is suddenly attacked by a crazed Rottweiler.

Thinking quickly, the other boy takes a stick and shoves it under the dog's collar, twists it, and breaks the dog's neck, thus saving his friend.

A sports reporter who was strolling by sees the incident and rushes over to interview the boy. He tells the boy, "I'll title it 'Young Wolverine Fan Saves Friend From Vicious Animal'".

"But I'm not a Wolverine fan," the little hero replies.

"Sorry, since we're in Ann Arbor, I just assumed you were," says the reporter, and he starts writing again. He asks "How does 'Spartan Fan Rescues Friend From Horrific Attack' sound?"

"I'm not a Spartan fan either," the boy says.

"Oh, I thought everyone in Michigan was either for the Wolverines or the Spartans. What team do you root for?" the reporter asks.

"I'm an Ohio State Buckeyes fan," the boy replies. "They're the best."

The reporter smiles, starts a new sheet in his notebook and writes: "Little Bastard From Ohio Kills Beloved Family Pet."

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2016, 12:50:59 am »
I also viewed it as cowardice, but you have to remember that the gun lobby doesn't have much to gain at this particular event. They make a lot of money stirring up people and contributing to fear and loathing. That's what the Republicans do very well, they tell you what to be scared of:

* they want you to be skurred that the gobba'mint will take yer guns, yee-haw!
* they want you to be skurred of immigrants, who will take yer jobs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toL1tXrLA1c
* they want you to be skurred of gay people, because I don't know
* they want you to be skurred of poor people
* they want you to be skurred of women's rights
* they want you to be skurred of science, because the bible has done such a good job at controlling ignorant people

… and so on. Don't believe me? Watch a Donald Trump rally. Read the news.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2016, 03:48:12 am »


* they want you to be skurred that the gobba'mint will take yer guns, yee-haw!

And this here now forever sums up the entire NRA to me.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2016, 04:58:37 pm »
Whether or not the NRA has any real advantage or benefit from engaging in a public debate with the Commander-in-Chief is not really my concern.

When your organization slanders, mocks, ridicules, and insults the President of the United States for 8 years, making completely bogus and baseless claims like, "He's coming to take our guns away" and "He's trying to create a fascist dictatorship by first disarming the populace" - you will accept an opportunity to face the man you have made a smear campaign of, or you will be considered an organization of spineless cowards.

I thought for a long time that, despite the obvious fear-mongering and propaganda-based tactics the NRA uses to spread its message, perhaps they had some reasonable, rational reasons to defend their position, or at least pretended to have, like Christian apologists, but now it seems that I was giving them too much credit.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2016, 01:36:19 pm »
Whether or not the NRA has any real advantage or benefit from engaging in a public debate with the Commander-in-Chief is not really my concern.

When your organization slanders, mocks, ridicules, and insults the President of the United States for 8 years, making completely bogus and baseless claims like, "He's coming to take our guns away" and "He's trying to create a fascist dictatorship by first disarming the populace" - you will accept an opportunity to face the man you have made a smear campaign of, or you will be considered an organization of spineless cowards.

I thought for a long time that, despite the obvious fear-mongering and propaganda-based tactics the NRA uses to spread its message, perhaps they had some reasonable, rational reasons to defend their position, or at least pretended to have, like Christian apologists, but now it seems that I was giving them too much credit.
Political opponents say nasty things about the opposition; this is a fact of life.  Before he was even president, Obama was referring to people as "bitter clingers", and his rhetoric has only gotten worse since then - "Terrorists" is one of the nicer things he's called the NRA these past few years.  The speech he just gave was full of lies and deceptions, and slandered tens of millions of law abiding gun owners.  Do you think he'd agree to a debate run by Fox News at the NRA's annual meeting?  (Hint: No)
The NRA has spent decades explaining its positions, and justifying them.  Lower crime, self-protection, hunting, competition and fun, and (of course) the Law are just some of those reasons.  If you really want to, you can go to their website and read all about what they support and why.
For his part, Obama has declared he doesn't think anyone should be allowed to own a gun.  He is on record as repeatedly saying that he wants to pass gun laws like Australia's, where they implemented a nation-wide gun confiscation program.  He has gone to little effort to hide his opinions over the years, so don't be surprised when people take him at his word.
It is also true that every dictatorship starts by trying to disarm the populace.  I don't recall the NRA ever stating that they seriously believe that Obama intends to overthrow the US government, just like I don't believe Obama seriously thinks that gun owners are actual terrorists for owning guns and not shooting people with them.  The term is rhetoric.

Politicians, of all sorts and parties, are gutless cowards.  Their entire job depends on image, so that must take precedence over whatever substance they may have.  PR offices are worse, as they don't even pretend have any ideals.  I don't expect them to be nice to their opponents, especially when their opponents are attacking them.

If your entire reason for hating a person or an organization, especially one with millions of active members, is that someone said something nasty about someone else, you must also hate the Democrat Party, the Libertarian Party, the Republican Party (those three are 90% of US adults so far), BLM, OWS, TP, NOW, PP, CAIR, CPUSA, oh, just about everyone.  Or, you already disliked the NRA for holding a position you didn't agree with and are looking for excuses to justify it.


That is the hardest part about trying to discuss guns over the internet:  almost everyone has already made up their mind and just wants to talk.  Structured arguments, such as the use of facts and logic to persuade another to your view, are too difficult and take too much time.  It's so much easier to jump straight to the attacks, do your virtue signaling, and feel good about yourself and hate your opponents.

Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2016, 02:25:35 pm »
Whether or not the NRA has any real advantage or benefit from engaging in a public debate with the Commander-in-Chief is not really my concern.

When your organization slanders, mocks, ridicules, and insults the President of the United States for 8 years, making completely bogus and baseless claims like, "He's coming to take our guns away" and "He's trying to create a fascist dictatorship by first disarming the populace" - you will accept an opportunity to face the man you have made a smear campaign of, or you will be considered an organization of spineless cowards.

I thought for a long time that, despite the obvious fear-mongering and propaganda-based tactics the NRA uses to spread its message, perhaps they had some reasonable, rational reasons to defend their position, or at least pretended to have, like Christian apologists, but now it seems that I was giving them too much credit.

This honestly is kinda how I've seen it too.  I mean, whatever their actual reasons are, that's REALLY what it looks like.

It's like some sort of playground bully who spends days, years, taunting, insulting, and threatening some kid, but the moment that kid finally takes a swing at them and is ready for a fight, the bully runs and hides under a desk rather than overpower the kid like he wanted everyone to think he would.

Though, in reality, I had a very hard time taking them seriously to begin with.