Author Topic: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic  (Read 21562 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2015, 10:23:41 pm »
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No, there is no block preventing women from getting health care, they have the most liberal and free access to abortion in the entire world
This isn't true by a long shot.

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/poor-women-dont-have-abortion-rights

Most 1st world countries cover abortion under a woman's medical rights, so what you're saying could not be further from the truth.

In addition, you have places all over the U.S. like Missouri is which there is a mandatory waiting period of 3 days, during which they are legally required to try to talk you out of it, inform you that abortions cause cancer (a blatant lie), and show you a sonogram of the living fetus. No other first world country goes to such extreme lengths to prevent abortion.

http://kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/mandatory-waiting-periods/

Let's not even go into details about the length in which the Republican party and conservative lobby has gone to shut Planned Parenthood down, we could devote an entire thread to that. Suffice it to say that if you can survive being slut shamed long enough to enter the building, it's quite possible you'll get shot up instead, if last week was any indication.

We have crazy conservative Christian abortion shooters in any other first world country? Well, I haven't heard about it anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there's no war on women. There's a war on intellectuality, whether it be science, logical gun control, women's rights, or what goes into educational textbooks, and it is being waged almost completely by the right.

If Donald Trump and Ben Carson is the best representation of this group of people, then I consider my point made.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 10:31:50 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2015, 11:47:49 pm »
No, grenade launchers, tanks, warplanes, and battleships should not be legal. How far will you take it? What about nuclear weapons? That’s what I mean by the right wing being insane. So dogmatic about the Second Amendment that they are willing for thousands of people to be killed. NRA puppets. And the US did hire mercenaries back in revolutionary times, but this is not revolutionary times. We have matured as a country, and there’s a lot of things we don’t do now in the present day that they used to get away with 200 years ago. Right wing romanticism of 200 years ago is selective in nature and by design, its intent is to manipulate by using patriotism and nationalism, which Germany is very familiar with.
And you utterly failed to understand either the historical, or current, purpose of weapons, history of the laws, and the 2nd Amendment.  As usual, every hoplophobe jumps straight to nukes.  As it happens, there is a widely understood idea of nukes, like biological and most chemical weapons, as indiscriminate and thus not 'arms' but strategic devices unlike any other weapon.  It accepts that NBC devices, being dangerous to even just store, much less use, are subject to restraint in ways that discriminate, individual weapons are not.
Why are you so afraid of a private citizen with a battleship?  What do you think that private citizen is going to do with it that terrifies you to the point you want men with guns to arrest or kill anyone that tries to obtain one?

Germany has a fear of the word 'Nationalism' that is all out of proportion to the actual danger.  The Nazi nationalism was no different than English or French nationalism - Hitler was just into left-wing eugenics more than more sane rulers in most other nations.  Remember, Britain and the US were both extremely nationalist during WWII, but somehow they didn't kill 6 million Jews.  Focusing on 'Nationalism' over 'genocidal ideology' misses the entire lesson of WWII.

I feel that I am wasting my time on someone that may not be informed, but I’ll give you a chance.
Based on your last few posts, I have no doubt I am more informed that you on most of these issues, and what you say here is just reinforcing that opinion.

Here is one example of Republicans assaulting women’s healthcare- access to a birth control pill:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/30/politics/scotus-obamacare-contraception/
In case you were unable to understand, in no case did anyone attempt to BLOCK access to birth control.  It just said that you cannot require someone else to PAY for your birth control.  Any woman can buy her own birth control, at $1/day, in any town in any state in the country.  Being denied free stuff is not oppression.

How about the morning-after pill:
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/08/10/669771/todd-akin-ban-morning-after-pill/
You quote a left-wing rag's condemnation of the opinion of one individual, Todd Akin, who holds no political office, as an example of ALL Republicans?  Can I point out stupid ideas by unemployed Democratic loudmouths, too?  Such as the absurd views of Robert F. Kennedy Jr, who claims vaccines cause autism.

Merely one link describing the gap between male and female earnings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States
And again, you either don't understand in the slightest, or you are being deliberately deceptive.  For equal jobs, with equal experience, there is equal pay.  But most women have less experience, work fewer hours, and concentrate in lower paying jobs to begin with.  Only if you try to absurdly claim that a woman working at McDonalds should have the same wage as a 30 year expert heart surgeon do you begin to show a 'wage gap'.

There was a bill designed to ban salary secrecy and discrimination against women, but Republicans blocked it:
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/09/15/3567740/republicans-paycheck-fairness-act/
The Equal Pay Act was passed in 1963 - that's more than 50 years before.  This bill attempted to remove the requirement that plaintiffs actually be required to prove that there was sex discrimination in order to win their case.  It removes most of the defenses that an employer can use to explain wage differences (the 'Reasons other than sex' defenses), such as experience or ability to do a job.  Even basic ability to negotiate a salary became de facto evidence of sex discrimination if even ONE male was able to negotiate for a higher salary than a similar female employee.

I’m not saying every Southerner is an idiot, but there’s a lot of reasons why their education system and their collective education is sub average. Let’s look at the statistics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_educational_attainment
It is no coincidence that the Bible Belt is a bright yellow on that first map. And for the high school graduation rate, let’s look at the comparison map of red states (Republicans and Southerners mostly):
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president
The bottom 15 states for high school graduation, 12 of them are Republican, Southern states. So rather than me saying that Southerners are stupid (which I’m not saying), I will say that they have a higher rate of being ignorant and uneducated. As per the facts.
Yup, the poorest counties in the country have the lowest graduation rates.  Funny how that works, isn't it?  The Northeast, which includes many of the wealthiest states in the country, spend three to five times as much money per student as poor Mississippi, but it's because the students in Mississippi are stupid that their results are worse.  Got it.
No, the South has a slightly lower graduation rate, and most of the college-bound leave the state for the coasts after graduation.  That shifts percentages, too.  But it hardly means that southerners are 'stupid'.

I also question your use of the word racism, because Southerners are not a race. I do think that religious people are not as smart, that’s true. I don’t particularly like how the South is easily manipulated by religion into making poor decisions and forcing them on the rest of us. We have to live with their crazy. And that’s more than a little irritating. I do demand that people participate in reality and leave childish things behind. Murderous sky fairy stories are not real, and I’m tired of religious fanatics ruining the world for the rest of us.
Atheism is no less an improvable belief about the existence of the supernatural than Christianity.  The only rational viewpoints are agnosticism (don't know) or apathy (don't care).  If you express any other opinion, such as your bigotry against those that follow "childish" "murderous sky fairy stories", you are equally irrational.

Also, the United States has very, very few 'fanatics' of any sort.  You use the word, but you seem to not understand what it means.  Someone suggesting that their religious beliefs are the reason they support or oppose a given law is not a fanatic.  Someone who, like the terrorists in San Bernardino, uses their religion as a reason to kill anyone that opposes them - THAT is a fanatic.

In regards to Laquan McDonald, it’s about how race issues do exist in this country and need to be dealt with. The South still has the Confederate flag-and many in the South were actually fighting to keep the Confederate flag waving-so it’s a tough sell to tell me that the South doesn’t have a severe ignorance issue and institutional racism when they were flying the Confederate flag at the South Carolina Statehouse just this past year:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/confederate-flag-south-ca_n_595256.html
If you bother to read the article, you’ll notice both Democratic candidates are open to moving it, and all four Republican candidates “doubt there’s support.” The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and racism as well as a complete traitor to United States of America. That’s what makes Republican nationalism such a joke, is at the same time they could be doing one of these racist activities.
Tell me, since the Civil War was over 150 years ago, why are you afraid of the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?  Do you think that the swastika should also be banned?  And the hammer and sickle, and the Red Star?  All of those symbols are responsible for more death and evil than the Confederacy was.
Why do you demand that the government send people with guns to kill or imprison anyone that shows a symbol you don't like?
Never mind that the flag means a lot more than just "slavery and racism".  If the residents of the state want to keep the flag, so what.  It's hardly any different than any other childish display of rebellion, such as liking Darth Vader.

Europeans don’t have the background that we do on how the South and the North currently exist in the United States, but let’s look at the map:
http://www.270towin.com/historical-presidential-elections/
You’ll notice that red and blue swap at 1964, which is when African-Americans were given their civil rights. The fact of the matter is, institutional racism exists. After the Civil War, the economic and political costs to the south have not been fully healed. We still see ignorance and racism revered by Southerners and implemented as Confederate license plates! News flash, the war has been over now for 150 years, and there’s nothing worth celebrating about a bunch of traitorous slavers who built tremendous wealth off the backs of kidnapped individuals from Africa. There’s nothing romantic about it, there’s nothing nostalgic about it, and it’s offensive that that still runs rampant throughout the South. Especially the Bible Belt.
Institutional racism does exist - it's just called "Affirmative Action" these days.  There it is enshrined in law that the color of a person's skin can grant them special privileges denied to people of a different skin color.  It just so happens that you approve of that variety of racism.  According to the General Social Survey, even blacks acknowledge that blacks are more racist than whites, by a more than two-to-one margin.
And there is plenty worth celebrating for many people in the South.  Most Southerners did not own slaves, and even 150 years ago, the South was much poorer than the North.  Many of the sovereign states fielded armies populated by nothing more than peasants that wanted to protect their homes.  The wealthy slave owners, like Democrat Jefferson Davis, that precipitated the war were unpopular even in the South.  They were good enough politicians to get support for succession, though, which is what kicked off the Civil War.
But even amongst the Southern plantation owners, there was no "tremendous wealth", and there were no whites "kidnapping" blacks from Africa.  Arab traders bought black slaves from other blacks, sold them to the English, that then sold them to Americans.
And have you ever actually visited the South or the Bible Belt?  Atlanta, say, or New Orleans, or Kansas City?  Your wild accusations of racism and treason tell me you haven't.


Would you like to discuss how Republicans contributed to institutional racism? It’s a long discussion, and I’m happy to get into it. Here’s a good place to start:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/the-war-on-drugs-how-president-nixon-tied-addiction-to-crime/254319/
It’s a great article, but what it doesn’t mention is that Stephen Hess was also a Republican advisor.
Cocaine was banned in 1922, after a two decade campaign, and marijuana in 1925/1937 - primarily because of fears of how it riled up blacks and made them violent.  Nixon, like most "Hard on Crime" politicians, chose the easy route of 'punish the crime' over 'treat the cause'.  But that wasn't anything new, as there was over 50 years of that behavior already in place in the US for treating drug users like criminals. 
If you want to get to blaming Presidents for bad policy decisions based on racism, try LBJ:  "I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." he said, talking about his Great Society.  And sure enough, he bought the black vote, and has utterly destroyed black culture.  Blacks actually have less wealth, are less educated, and have less upward mobility today than they did under the Democrats in the Jim Crow South.

I noticed that you mentioned socialist as a negative, but I doubt you even know what it is. We have many socialist policies now! Unfortunately, the right wing has branded socialism in such a way that we can’t talk about things that we might like about it, things we might learn, and things we are already doing. Instead, it’s immediately branded un-American. It’s part of the intellectual bankruptcy of the right wing. I should also add that Republicans love socialism when it benefits their corporate puppet masters.
Again, I probably know more about what socialism is than you do.  Socialism, in general, is the economic philosophy that the benefits of commerce should belong to those who work, rather than those that own the means of production.  There are lots of sub varieties, from Levelers to Communism, under the large heading of Socialism.  But they all retain one feature:  Namely that those who work hard and profit by themselves have the benefits of their labor taken from them and given to those that do not work hard or profit.
Socialism in practice is the oppression of those who are capable, ambitious, or dedicated, by taking from them and giving to others.  You are trying to suggest that all cooperative behavior is socialism, when it clearly isn't.  Individuals choosing to cooperate, such as when forming corporations, or joining together in a church, or when performing charitable good works, is not socialism.
And the United States of America is founded on the philosophy of individual excellence and freedom.  Anyone is free to work hard, and benefit from the fruits of their labor.  So when someone like Bernie Sanders comes along and says "We want to take from you what you earned, and give it to people we think deserve it more", you're damned right it is Un-American.

Socialism almost wiped out the Pilgrims.  Even in small groups, socialist societies fail, because humans are not biologically capable of treating all other humans equally, and because humans are not all perfectly good.  One of the core philosophies of the Left for the past several centuries has been that the government is capable of moulding human nature - and that if they just pass the right laws, this time socialism will work!  Even though it never has before
The so-called 'socialist' nations in Europe are actually more friendly to capitalism than the US in most circumstances.  They've had to become so, because when they tried to be socialist, they ran out of money.  When Margaret Thatcher destroyed the English Socialists and broke the unions, she set the British economy on growth unprecedented since WWII.  It's no wonder they hated her so much - she proved them wrong to the core.

And seriously, 'corporate puppet masters'?  Are you trying to have a discussion here, or just spouting third-tier platitudes?  The rich corporations support both parties equally - why do you think Obama is called "President Goldman-Sachs"?  But no corporation is "puppet-master" of anyone, much less an entire party of 100,000,000 people.

In regards to the shootings in San Bernardino, we are still getting more facts on the topic. But I do know that someone like Adam Lanza should not have a gun in his house.

EPA has had many successes, including regulating lead. Do you know the history of lead in this country? You wanted an example, there is one. I can give EPA examples all day. They help keep us safe.
Again, lead regulations started well before the EPA got around to noticing there was a problem.  The states acted faster, and more decisively, than the EPA.  The only significant step the EPA accomplished in regards to lead was the banning of lead inclusions in gasoline - in 1995.

Obergefell  legalized gay marriage. Are you against gay marriage? Are you a bigot? Lots of Republicans are. That’s what I’m talking about when I criticize Republicans. Institutional bigotry across the whole party. ”Traditional marriage” (no gays allowed) was part of their 2012 presidential election platform!
Ah, yes, because understanding that religious ceremonies have religious requirements, and demanding that those requirements be met to partake in the religious ceremony is somehow bigotry.

Since you weren't reading, let me state again - Expanding the benefits of marriage to all couples was the right result.  The legal reasoning was complete bullshit.  Even organizations, like the ACLU, that wrote briefs in favor of that ruling were against the crazy basis that the ruling used.  Those few justices magically created a "But LOVE!" exemption to the 9th and 10th Amendments out of whole cloth, all because they wanted to do the 'right thing'.  Except of polyamory, somehow "LOVE!" doesn't allow that, of course - only those 'stupid' religious people would want that.
Again, the only rational decision the Supreme Court could have made in Obergefell would have been for the Court to demand that the State remove itself from regulating religious ceremonies entirely.  The Leftists didn't do that, because that wouldn't have forced the opposition to bow to the will of the activists, even though it would have solved the problem in a legal defensible manner.

You might have missed the topic, but in regards to Japan it was about the collective. They are very good at taking care of the collective and not so good when it comes to individuals that can’t conform. That’s what you’re describing, you are not correctly understanding the term collective. Japan healthcare is extremely good, nationalized, and they offer ”socialist services.” As do we. We can learn from them in many respects.
Japanese health care, good?  You're kidding, right?  For anything more serious than a Band-Aid or aspirin, it sucks.  Private clinics get most of the serious business, and all of the wealthiest Japanese come to the US for their medical care, if they can afford it.
And my point was that the Japanese focus on the collective makes it really hard for anyone different or unusual to live there.  Have something shameful happen to you?  Better not let anyone know, or your life will be ruined.  And God forbid that you be born to a member of a lower caste - your life will permanently suck, then, because Japanese still has a caste system that oppresses the untouchables in ways no other advanced nation would accept.

Finally, I see nothing worth revering about having a violent society.
Oh, there isn't.  Of course, the US isn't actually a 'violent' society.  That's the Middle East, or Africa, or Eastern Europe, or Central Asia.  But I guess you mean "in comparison to other 1st world, high-income, monocultural nations".
If all the non-Americans went away, or if the inner-city residents stopped robbing and killing each other all the time, we wouldn't have a violent society.  Notice how all the European peoples are reacting, now that they are beginning to receive a fraction of the immigrants that the US receives every year?  Multiculturalism breeds violence.  The US is the most multicultural nation on Earth, and that contributes strongly to the levels of violence we see.  If you truly want the benefits of diversity, you have to accept the drawbacks, too.
But I'd much rather have the level of violence we have than be the tightly controlled and suppressed anti-individualistic societies that Japan or China have.  I'd VERY much prefer to be able to defend myself from a criminal, then to have to hope, like Lee Rigby, that someone will come along and save me from having my head slowly sawed off in front of a crowd.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2015, 12:05:29 am »
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Multiculturalism breeds violence.  The US is the most multicultural nation on Earth, and that contributes strongly to the levels of violence we see.  If you truly want the benefits of diversity, you have to accept the drawbacks, too.
I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on why multiculturalism breeds violence. Seems like an interesting theory.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2015, 12:07:47 am »
You do realize that the United States of America are a nation of immigrants? that the whole purpose of America was initially a immigrant colony of several other countries (mostly british).
So how do you identify "Non-Americans". And no, this is not because I want to declare you as racist but because the definition of an "American" is really hard to make.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2015, 12:13:40 am »
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No, there is no block preventing women from getting health care, they have the most liberal and free access to abortion in the entire world
This isn't true by a long shot.

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/poor-women-dont-have-abortion-rights

Most 1st world countries cover abortion under a woman's medical rights, so what you're saying could not be further from the truth.

In addition, you have places all over the U.S. like Missouri is which there is a mandatory waiting period of 3 days, during which they are legally required to try to talk you out of it, inform you that abortions cause cancer (a blatant lie), and show you a sonogram of the living fetus. No other first world country goes to such extreme lengths to prevent abortion.

http://kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/mandatory-waiting-periods/
Why is it that many Leftists confuse 'pay for something' with 'access to something'?  If I refuse to pay for someone else's abortion, I am NOT blocking their access to it.
In the US, it is legal to get an abortion later in the gestation period than in any European nation, and if you can get a doctor to agree, without review or evidential standard, that carrying the fetus to term would be 'life threatening', then a woman can get an abortion at any time at all.  Remember the entire "Partial-birth abortion" issue from a not too long ago?

Abortions cause cancer the same way the UN has declared bacon causes cancer - there is a slight increase in the risk of cancer, due to the additional stress placed against the woman's body.  Do some states push absurd restrictions on abortion?  Yes.  The current attempt to require clinics to be close to, and have admitting rights, to a hospital is a roundabout attempt to ban abortion clinics.  The states that tried it are properly losing their cases. 
Now, do you see how roundabout attempts to ban something by putting absurd requirements on it is unconstitutional?  Do you understand why attempts to push out gun shows, or tax ammo, or all the other unconstitutional attempts to bypass the 2nd Amendment are also unconstitutional?

Let's not even go into details about the length in which the Republican party and conservative lobby has gone to shut Planned Parenthood down, we could devote an entire thread to that. Suffice it to say that if you can survive being slut shamed long enough to enter the building, it's quite possible you'll get shot up instead, if last week was any indication.
Again, refusing to fund something does NOT block access to it, especially when it is a private company to begin with.  Of course, Planned Parenthood can't use federal funds for abortions anyway, and hasn't been able to for many years, so why would defunding it change any woman's access to abortion to begin with?


We have crazy conservative Christian abortion shooters in any other first world country? Well, I haven't heard about it anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there's no war on women. There's a war on intellectuality, whether it be science, logical gun control, women's rights, or what goes into educational textbooks, and it is being waged almost completely by the right.
Yet studies show that conservatives are more open to new ideas than leftists.  It's the Left that formed the Occupy movement, and it's the Left that is behind the current 'safe spaces' BS.  It's the Left that has destroyed the inner cities, driving tens of millions of blacks into poverty and ignorance.  It's the Left that drives the racist and violent BLM movement.
It's the Left that has ignored science to push failing welfare programs, or to push billions of dollars to friendly 'green' technology companies.  It's the Left that has prevented nuclear power from growing over the past 50 years, despite it being the greenest form of energy available to humanity.
It's the Left that pushes foolish gun control laws that are proven not to do anything, based on emotional responses to scary objects.
It's the Left that pushed for the bad loans to unqualified people and the simultaneous deregulation of the financial industry that led to the 2008 crisis.
It's the Left that abandoned Iraq and allowed the creation of ISIL, it's the Left that destroyed Libya and turned it into a raging slaughterhouse while creating Boko Haram.
It's the Left that tried to recreate the entire US health insurance industry, with a bill no one read, and then illegally refused to implement the law when it was politically inconvenient.  Even as we speak, the ACA continues to screw over millions of people for the benefit of a select few.

No party is perfect, but in the past few decades, the Left has repeatedly screwed up in ways the Right could never dream of.

If Donald Trump and Ben Carson is the best representation of this group of people, then I consider my point made.
Oh, they aren't.  Trump is an entertainer who is riding a wave an anti-Federal sentiment caused by at least 7 years of repeated total Federal screw-ups in almost every field.  I don't think he'll actually be able to win the nomination, though.  It'd be funny if he did, though.
Cruz and Rubio are more interesting, and are actual politicians. 

But look at the Democrats - Hillary Clinton?  A lying old woman whose only accomplishment is being married to a not-incompetent former president?  She's the perfect example of the corrupt life-long politician, willing to say or do anything to get elected.  Even a blowhard serial bankrupter like Trump is more accomplished than her.
Sanders?  A wild-eyed idealist with no basis in reality.  He wants to give the world to every one, but doesn't have even the slightest idea how to do it.
O'Malley?  A man so bad at governing that his solidly Democratic state Elected a Republican to get rid of him.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2015, 12:23:27 am »
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Multiculturalism breeds violence.  The US is the most multicultural nation on Earth, and that contributes strongly to the levels of violence we see.  If you truly want the benefits of diversity, you have to accept the drawbacks, too.
I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on why multiculturalism breeds violence. Seems like an interesting theory.
Go look for some papers by Putnam, or Salter, or Duffy, or Roth, or McDonald - Basically, the more "different" the people around you are, the less social trust there is, and the more likely your social group is to escalate to violence when conflict arises between your group and the "other" group.
It's one of the main reason nations like Japan suffer so little internal conflict - everyone has the same values, so there is little cause for misunderstanding and conflict, and lots of common ground for settling differences.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2015, 12:25:52 am »
Don't get me wrong Toranth, I agree with most of what you said. I consider myself a moderate. There is plenty of blood on the hands of both sides of the political spectrum.

I used to consider myself a Leftist until I saw the absolutely ridiculous SJW rhetoric and method at work, including (just as a small example), a leading college group spearheading the #Blacklivesmatter movement calling for violence on the streets if the Constitution isn't rewritten LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

A lot of the 3rd Wave Feminist stuff is equally ridiculous as well, I don't know how anybody could support what's being said if they had done a modicum of research or weren't just blinded by groupthink.

I do really like Bernie though, and I disagree with you that he doesn't have a plan to make things work. I think he has a very solid plan, breaking up the big banks and tearing down the Corporatocracy that we now live in.

The reason I brought up Trump and Carson was because they are currently the leading figures of the Republican party, as in they have the highest chance of winning. Ted Cruz is catching up and Mark Rubio is still pretty far behind.

Well anyway, we can agree to disagree. I think politics is f*cking stupid anyway, I just wanted to respond.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2015, 12:29:21 am »
You do realize that the United States of America are a nation of immigrants? that the whole purpose of America was initially a immigrant colony of several other countries (mostly british).
So how do you identify "Non-Americans". And no, this is not because I want to declare you as racist but because the definition of an "American" is really hard to make.
When talking about Multiculturalism, the standard is for how similar the beliefs and behaviors of a given social group match those of their surrounding groups.  If that group is close enough to their "American" neighbors, and identifies as part of that same group, then they can be considered the same group.
When you have communities, like Chinatowns, or barrios, or Michigan's Little Somalia, where the social values of that group do not match the surrounding social groups, and the social group does not identify as the same larger social group as the surrounding groups, you get conflict.  Those are the "Un-American" social groups.

In this case, I do not mean that those groups are BAD.  The Chinatowns, for example, are in many ways better than the equivalent American social groups of the same economic class.  The problem with multiculturalism arises purely from the fact that there are differences, not what those differences are.
Differences can also fade with time.  The Irish and German immigrants once had similar problems, but over the past two centuries enough cultural and identity elements have been shared that there are no longer enough differences to cause conflicts.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2015, 12:36:56 am »
Well anyway, we can agree to disagree. I think politics is f*cking stupid anyway, I just wanted to respond.
I think politics can be fascinating - it's mass movement of people, and in exciting times can be more dramatic than anything short of major war.  But you're correct that there is plenty of stupid in it.

Mostly, I got into this thread because gun control/violence and health care are two of the topics I've discussed in many places over the years, and accumulated a lot of research papers and references on.  So before we managed to get completely sidetracked, I was meaning to supply some data for the gun control part of the discussion - didn't mean to start ranting about the two worst of our two political parties.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2015, 01:57:59 pm »
Toranth, you pretty much confirm what I already knew about right-wingers. Your retorts to my evidence-based post are widely off-topic and avoiding the issues. I don't really want to get sucked into this debate with someone like you because it takes too much time due to your ignorance on a wide range of topics, and you have clearly marinated in the right-wing Kool-Aid for way too long.
 
And some of what you said is outright lies. For example, defunding birth control for women does block access to the product, and you know that. You would prefer to play games and wordplay around the point rather than face the facts that when you defund birth control, you take away a woman's choice. I never got why Republicans didn't like birth control anyways, it cuts down abortions.

The definition of atheism is a lack of belief. If you had a little bit more education and were able to break the word down, you would see a-theism. Lacking belief in a god. Without belief. Most people lack belief in everyone else's god except their own. I'm the same way, except with one extra god that I lack belief in, thereby completing the set! Christians are merely imperfect atheists, keeping their own storybook going while crapping on everyone else's.

You completely avoided the question about weapons. Grenade launchers are okay? Are you serious? This severe departure from reality is what I'm talking about with right-wingers.

You completely avoided the history of the Confederate stars and bars. You tried the pivot maneuver to the Nazi swastika. You completely avoided its meaning. And you avoid why it might be offensive, and that a state capitol building should not be flying it. It's completely racist and traitorous.

You completely avoided the equal pay for equal work act. Republicans blocked it because it was a threat to their corporate puppeteers, not because they care about women. Here's a quote:
"McConnell also said he opposes the underlying legislation because it would “line the pockets of trial lawyers” instead of truly helping women."
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/203064-senate-gop-blocks-paycheck-fairness-bill
Yes, he's worried about the financial impact to companies and lawyers profiting off of that interaction (that's their job, and in fact, many government politicians were lawyers first!).

You completely avoided the morning after pill discussion, which is routinely attacked by Republicans across the country. I gave you one example. How many do you need? How about Congress?
http://www.shfwire.com/gop-house-members-argue-against-morning-after-pill/

You completely avoided EPA successes. I gave you one example. But your point is what? Is it not important enough? I consider removing lead emissions to be a great example of good regulation. Profit motive for corporations often prevents them from making the right decision by society. Government protects us from that, and it's most effective when people vote appropriately. You apparently want pages and pages of line items for everything, and then when you are proven wrong, you quickly pivot towards strawmen. Your technique is to rephrase the question rather than answer it. Yes, playbook right-wing intellectual bankruptcy.

You completely avoided my question on if you opposed gay marriage and if you are a bigot. By the way, Christians didn't invent marriage, and you can't impose any specific religious requirement on the act. They don't have a monopoly on monogamy and relationships. For some reason, self-righteous Christians in this country decided that they could decide who could have a marriage ceremony because they thought they owned it. They didn't. And frankly, I don't see Christianity's murderous, bloody god in the Constitution. There is no shred of evidence about that god, and it's extremely annoying when people try to use it to justify their foolish arguments.

I know without a doubt I know more about socialism than you do. Your comment, "Namely that those who work hard and profit by themselves have the benefits of their labor taken from them and given to those that do not work hard or profit." is not socialism. Our capitalist society has that problem. We have a system where the richest among us are earning disproportionate sums of wealth without having to do the work. You continue to criticize socialism with the very qualities that we have with our country now! And you attributed a quote to Sanders that he never even said. An outright lie.

I'm highly educated on the topic and is often frustrating to me that I have to drag conservatives into even learning about the topic. Your argument about the pilgrims, it's a joke. And there are many European countries which have socialist policies that are doing quite well. One of the new Republican maneuvers is to declare the good parts about European socialism "capitalist" rather than acknowledge their socialist policies. Except when it comes to Greece, in which case they don't use any mention of capitalism. They pull out their trusty playbook, see a picture of poor people, and decide to blame them. Because they are the accountants and the banks, right? Please. :D

This is the Republican technique of hollowing out rational arguments, inserting themselves, and then painting over it with their favorite logos. Part of that intellectual bankruptcy of the right-wing that I'm talking about. It's all rather sad. I mean that.

And yes, I lived in the southern Midwest for a couple years. It sucked.

Your comment about Japanese healthcare is highly misinformed. Your comment about their medical care is not only misinformed, it reeks of that Republican "American exceptionalism," where clearly anything that other countries do well is flawed, and America is just naturally better. That attitude really irks other nations, and it shows your ignorance. Again, I spent a lot of time over there, and I have seen some incredible strides in their healthcare system that we just don't have. A Japanese person's access to a doctor is quite easy compared to our country, and the costs are regulated by the government to prevent excessive profiting off of people's illnesses. They have the third highest life expectancy in the world:
http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/life-expectancy-country.html
We are at number 42. But they can only handle aspirins and Band-Aids, right? And as far as the caste system, it was abolished in the 1800s. They have issues dealing with racism and discrimination, as do we, but it is not sanctioned by the government. It's not acceptable to them anymore than it is to us, and they continue to grow and try to overcome it, including with regulations.

So, at this point, I'm not very motivated to continue with you because you avoid answering any questions except by rephrasing them and supplying answers (strawman playbook). I think you're profoundly ignorant, you might just be a bad person, and I'm not that motivated to waste my time. Some people are just smarter and have better character, and I can't fix that for you. I can only hope that Republicans continue to be unelected to the executive office. I shouldn't have to explain to somebody why we can't have people owning grenade launchers. It's an unimaginable conversation.

Enjoy your Donald Trump  :P. I'm going back to communicate and continue progress with rational adults.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2015, 02:14:57 pm »
It's the Left that abandoned Iraq and allowed the creation of ISIL, it's the Left that destroyed Libya and turned it into a raging slaughterhouse while creating Boko Haram.

I don't even know why I'm in this thread and reading any of it. The twists and turns are unreal. And I was willing to just let a lot of what has been said in this thread go but this, no, this point I'm not going to let it go. We want to war in Iraq under President Bush who over-blew intelligence (my theory) that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that we needed to stop that from happening. (Which we never found) We also apparently needed to overthrow the regime because.........wait why did we need to do that again? That military coup was wholly unneeded and I've long suspected its because Bush wanted to finish his daddy's war. There was absolutely no reason for us to get stuck in that sinkhole when we could have done to Iraq what we did in Afghanistan. Instead, we decided to half-ass a take over of the government and install our version of democracy half-dashed and slapped together in far less time than our founding fathers created our own society. And I'm not entirely convinced that the Iraqis wanted it to begin with but I guess history will decide that. President Obama was given the unenviable task of cleaning up someone else's mess and you're damn right he was going to pull out. That's what he said during the build up of his campaign. Even Trump has said that going to war in the Middle East was a giant mistake. That entire place is a quagmire and having our soldiers suffer for it is.......

So, when we destroyed a dictator's regime, a power vacuum was left. Ripe for a force of hate like that to spawn. Unless we were willing to stay in that region for centuries (which even the Russians never have been), it's very likely any type of ISIL would have been created.

So if anyone is to blame for the creation of ISIL, it's President Bush. Or we could go even further back than that because I'm pretty sure that ISIL is the creation of many choices by the US and the rest of the world made in and around the Middle East region over the past several decades. It's very unlikely that one event or choice created ISIL and to suggest otherwise is shortsighted at best. One event doesn't create such a force, never has and never will. It is always a series of choices and events that lead to such a thing coming into being.

This isn't a source I consider trusthworthy enough to prove my above theory but it's an interesting development nonetheless: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/michael-morell-bush-cheney-iraq-war
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:17:54 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2015, 02:45:37 pm »
....well, that escalated quickly.

Some of this might outdo even my own longest posts on here.  Which really is quite a feat... *slow clapping*

My obligatory sarcasm aside though, I'll never understand politics, really I wont.  It's such a hot topic all the time, producing endless conversations/arguements/yelling/throwing-things but it always just goes over my head.  It just... I dunno.  It always seems like one of those things where I dont see the POINT in arguing about it as many people do.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2015, 02:55:03 pm »
All of my what, gents.

24 hours ago this was a passionate yet productive debate about privately owned guns, the difference between urbanites and countryside people, and psychological aspects related to both.
Now it's...the same sh!t-flinging as everywhere. Feels more like /pol/ than the Arcen forums.

Can someone who actually read all of it summarise how this breakdown happened?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:59:37 pm by Shrugging Khan »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2015, 03:40:08 pm »
So, at this point, I'm not very motivated to continue with you because you avoid answering any questions except by rephrasing them and supplying answers (strawman playbook). I think you're profoundly ignorant, you might just be a bad person, and I'm not that motivated to waste my time. Some people are just smarter and have better character, and I can't fix that for you.
I was going to respond to most of your post, but I think this can be used to save time.

You are not attempting to hold a rational discussion.  The mere act of disagreement with you causes you to categorize me as ignorant and a bad person?  That's the act of a child, throwing a temper tantrum, not an adult, certainly not a 'smart' one.  If that's the behavior you are going to exhibit, then you are correct that there is no point in attempting to discuss anything with you.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Concerning America's mass shootings epidemic
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2015, 04:06:33 pm »
It's the Left that abandoned Iraq and allowed the creation of ISIL, it's the Left that destroyed Libya and turned it into a raging slaughterhouse while creating Boko Haram.
I don't even know why I'm in this thread and reading any of it. The twists and turns are unreal. And I was willing to just let a lot of what has been said in this thread go but this, no, this point I'm not going to let it go. We want to war in Iraq under President Bush who over-blew intelligence (my theory) that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that we needed to stop that from happening. (Which we never found) We also apparently needed to overthrow the regime because.........wait why did we need to do that again? That military coup was wholly unneeded and I've long suspected its because Bush wanted to finish his daddy's war. There was absolutely no reason for us to get stuck in that sinkhole when we could have done to Iraq what we did in Afghanistan. Instead, we decided to half-ass a take over of the government and install our version of democracy half-dashed and slapped together in far less time than our founding fathers created our own society. And I'm not entirely convinced that the Iraqis wanted it to begin with but I guess history will decide that. President Obama was given the unenviable task of cleaning up someone else's mess and you're damn right he was going to pull out. That's what he said during the build up of his campaign. Even Trump has said that going to war in the Middle East was a giant mistake. That entire place is a quagmire and having our soldiers suffer for it is.......
First - Bush invading Iraq was a strategic mistake, as Iran would have been the more appropriate target, seeing as they have been the number one state sponsor of terrorism attack since the 1980s, including many attacks on overseas US employees, allies, and interests.  Even worse, after the conquest, the Bush administration turned out all the Baathists - which means everyone in the pervious government PLUS everyone in the army.  Having lost their jobs, and being told they would never be allowed to get another one, of course they rebelled.  This was the biggest F-up of the entire Bush administration, and it was done in 2003.

But after the US finally got its act together, about 2006-2007, many Baathists were accepted back into Iraqi society, AQI and its allied groups were crushed (despite major support from Iran).  The few remaining AQI leaders crossed the border into Syria, and spent most of their time hiding from Assad and the US.
However, when the US pulled out of Iraq, there was suddenly to competent military force remaining.  Previously, the US had troops there, and most importantly, kept the Iraqi army in line.  With US advisors riding them, they didn't run away from fights, the officers didn't steal the troop's pay, and the black market resale of weapons was kept to a minimum.  After the US left, the Iraqi Army basically fell apart.
Then when a few thousand AQI troops (now calling themselves ISIL), armed with light arms and technicals, crossed the border again, the Iraqis all ran away and refused to fight.  ISIL acquired more than 80% heavy military materiel during this initial period, including several billion dollars stolen from banks, dozens of tanks, tens of thousands of firearms, millions of rounds of ammo, mortars, artillery, etc, etc.  ISIL has been riding the tails of this initial success since then.  Without those heavy weapons, the more numerous Kurdish and Iraqi militias would have been able to stop them.
All of this can be laid squarely at the feet of the Obama administration, which didn't want to leave any troops in country.  Iraq has revealed that the Obama administration didn't even bother to negotiate any rights to remain - they wanted out for political reasons, as we saw in the election, and that was that.

Germany, Japan, Korea - these are all good examples of places where the US remained for decades, and forced the local governments to behave.  Remaining in Iraq for 50 years would have done a great deal to keep the peace and form a strong central government, one that would possibly have outlasted the US departure.  By leaving in less than 10 years, we all but guaranteed that the three major groups in Iraq would fall out in short order.


And as to the old canard of "no WMDs" - Even the New York Times admitted there were more than 5000 chemical weapons, 200 tons of uranium, and millions of liters of dual-purpose chemical precursors found in Iraq.  A bunch of chemical weapons were even used on US troops as part of IED attacks.  This is where the goalposts changed to "No active nuclear program" or "they were old", as if modern chemical weapons won't keep for decades.  Anyone trying to gargle 20 year old Iraq mustard was going to die in agony no less than someone playing with 20 day old mustard.
In other words - Yes, there were lots of WMDs found.  A few were even used in attacks against US troops.