Author Topic: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....  (Read 39121 times)

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #180 on: November 29, 2016, 01:56:07 am »
The update information looks actually pretty good. I liek the idea of buying freighters that transport stuff for you from other planets. This gives the whoel game an economy, you invest resources (fuel or whatever) in finding planets, "claim" them, build resource extractors there, buy some freighters and let them ship the stuff to your main colony.

However, that you cannot freely create your base is a little... underwhelming. This might not be bad if it works similiar to Subnautica, where you can freely place corridors, rooms and whatever to your base how you like.
But the way how they show it seems more like the Skyrim version of "build your house". You simply buy the next upgrade/room for your house and it gets added to it. You may change what room exactly you want to have at that corner of the house but you are still pretty much limited to your options. And since they have a creative mode, I don't think this is a smart idea. Misery can proof me of course wrong int hat since he owns the game and I don't.

The other thing and let's face it, a too high difficulty kills the mood of playing the game. And no, don't give me the "it's a survival game" bullshit.
Survival game is not the same as harcore game experience. Look at Dark souls. Got advertised as hardcore experioence, everyone sees that it is that, no one complains.
Look at minecraft. It even HAS a mode that says "Hardcore". However, Survival is not the same as "this is so hard you have to fight for every inch to survive".
I could now search for a detailed explanation of the genre but I will just do it on my own. The survial genre fits some basic concepts.
You need something to sustain yourself. This "something" will deplet over time. If you want to refill it, you have to gather something. In most games this is "hunger" and you have to gather "food" to refill it. It could also be energy (like in Fortresscraft Evolved and I think in NMS as well).
Gathering the resource you need should not be a simple task but also not impossible. You don't know where said resource is at the start, you have to search it. It may take longer or shorter depending on how good you are at searching or how far away it is hidden.
There might be additional dangers, enemies for example or natural dangers, fire, lightning storms, stuff like that. Might also be traps or anything like that.
You have or have not an end goal. In order to reach it you have to live as long as possible, therefor survive a slong as possible.

Now, I believe that NMS has all that but the point is, the basic concepts do not state that the game has to murder you at every corner. It is rather that you MAY die at every corner but the game DOES NOT do so. While NMS does as teh review stated. And even you said yourself so, Misery, that the game is brutally hard, you even told it in the screenshot I saw that you died right at the start. This shouldn't happen. Being a hard game is great and all but a game shoudl also be FAIR. See Dark Souls again. The game is brutal. Teh game is terrifying (psychologically speaking) but it is also FAIR. You have a chance to beat all the bosses.
Making it POSSIBLE to surive is not the same as making the game FAIR. We could now try to argue what is fair but let's keep this short. In my opinion fair means, when every player get's the same chance of experiencing the game. Equal chances for everyone. That is not the case with this game it seems. And no matter how you want to put it, players get murdered for things that shouldn't murder them. liek pirates stalking a specific player endlessy despite him having no resources at all.

Hmm, to answer various parts (I'm too lazy to split up the quote):

Base creation:  I haven't done it yet.  Though, it's also not really my focus in games that allow it, which works well as I'm very bad at constructing things that actually make sense.  In Minecraft for example, a "house" made by me usually ends up as a distorted, twisted mess.  It functions, sort of, but it sure doesn't look like it should.  In Starbound I don't even bother, I just find a pre-constructed building on the surface and snatch it.  If I need more room for stuff, I just drill holes in the floor and stuff boxes into them.   In NMS, it's likely to be awhile before I start with the base-building.  I first must complete my quest to find the freaking zinc.  However, it's still an attractive prospect due to it's practical use.  If it lets me grow the accursed zinc plants, it's a good thing.   From most of what I hear from other players, the base creation mechanics overall are pretty nice.  But it's certainly not block-based as in "sandbox" games like Minecraft (where terrain building/deforming/destroying is half of the game; in this it's more of a side thing).

High difficulty kills the mood:  Feh, this one is really subjective.  Some players don't like this sort of thing because it ruins immersion or whatever.  In my case, "immersion" is a throw-away concept that gets ignored.  Interesting though the landscape in games like this may be, it's mostly just pretty pixels to look at. Which has some decent value, but it's more of an "Oh, that's cool" sort of thing.  I, and many others who requested (and ended up enjoying) this new mode, get the most out of a game like this when the difficulty is high.   Even with Minecraft, this is the case:  I often play it with mods that dramatically increase the difficulty.  Normal skeletons aren't very interesting... mildly annoying at best.  But they sure get more interesting when they can move at high speeds, hit like a freight train, fire twice as often, and go into "crazed axe murderer" mode if you get too close (and axes can break shields).  For me, that's when things get fun.  It's the same for the main genres I play, bullet-hell and roguelikes.  Or both at once.   With easier games, my attention wanders too much because there isn't anything to focus it on.   The AMOUNT of difficulty is also very subjective.  Dark Souls, for example.  I know people that wouldn't touch it with a 100-foot pole because "It's stupidly hard, how is that any fun?".   I, personally, think it's too easy; it's like the first Castlevania, in that once you've learned an enemy's patterns, they no longer present a threat.  The earlier games in the series were the same way, and I got bored with them fast.   Player reactions to that entire series vary wildly between those two extremes.   Even with NMS, and the new mode, there are those that think it's STILL not hard enough.

Dying at the start shouldn't happen:  Lots of games do this.  Bullet hells and roguelikes are BUILT on it; they will murder the funky hell out of the player way harder than this one does, and it's as if the designers not only know this will happen but ENJOY the fact, and so the cruelty increases.   This, too, is subjective though, to the skill of the player.  Again, Dark Souls:  There are many who will NEVER CLEAR THE TUTORIAL ZONE.  I know a couple of people like that.  They simply cannot get ANYWHERE in it.  Even with a game like Isaac, this does happen... and Isaac isn't very hard.  This is one of the design issues that all developers will face, sooner or later:  You cannot create a game that has the right difficulty for everyone. It's impossible.  Trying to do so is an exercise in stupid.  I can say from my own experiences with Starward that is it frankly a bloody annoying process.

The game isn't fair:  It is, actually, in a technical sense.  I have yet to encounter a "how the hell was I supposed to deal with that?" situation.  And as I've said often when referring to Starward's design, that's basically the cardinal sin for me, if a game pulls that (meaning I wouldn't exactly be so pleased if NMS genuinely did it).  With Starward, if a situation that causes that is found, I change it ASAP.   With NMS now, one example of people saying it's not fair is Thamium:  The element needed to power your life support systems (well, there are other ways, but this is the simplest).  People complain that "they cant find any!" on basically any planet.  I have discovered this to be untrue.  The stuff isn't exactly covering the landscape, but... I've still ended up with a big surplus of it, and as I know how to go about searching for it (with or without the scanner) I wont be running out anytime soon.  The difference between my approach and theirs though is that I simply KEPT GOING until I learned how to really get at the stuff easily.  The same goes for basically everything that isn't zinc.  But I'll figure out the damn zinc sooner or later.   People have the unfortunate tendency to give up on stuff really easily... how can they know if something is fair or not when they didn't TRY long enough to even fully understand what was going on?   Same for the mechanic of dealing with the weather.  People complain about a lack of caves in some areas.  But one thing that EVERY world has (because it's necessary) is resource nodes.  Big lumpy blobs of some element that you get at by actually digging into them.  Want a spot to recharge your thermal thingie?  Just dig a hole in it, and walk in there and stand for a short time.  It may be simple shelter, but it's still shelter.   The problem that players encounter though is that like many high-difficulty games, NMS doesn't explain itself very well.   I suspect that this is actually because the previous version was *just* easy... it didn't really need to explain all that much of advanced techniques because those were only necessary on the occaisional super-dangerous world.  Players didn't need to learn those things, so they enter the new mode without them.  This is similar to how roguelikes approach things (where they are happy to tear you to shreds without teaching you a freaking thing), but people don't expect that utter lack of explanation in a game like this.   That all being said... the normal mode still exists for those that want it.   I do, however, think that one more mode should be added, one that's between the two extremes.   I cant speak of pirates yet as I have not dealt with them in this mode.  I'll be expecting them though; I'll carry my blasted resources into space as much as I want as I'm stubborn like that, so I rather expect they'll attack more unpleasantly than they do for some players.  It'll get interesting. 


Quote
"If I die to these pirates, I lose nothing and respawn in a better spot." 

This is entirely untrue.  You lose some stuff if you die.   Been there, done that, with the one death I did have (bye bye, Thamium and Plutonium).   I suspect that those players that are doing as you say are actually just sending items back to the ship..... which only works if the ship actually has space for them (and throughout most of the game, it wont).   Even Minecraft can do this, without mods (Ender Chests, which have massively grown in power with the new Shulker Chests.  Which can be shoved into the Ender Chests.  You could put 30 inventories worth of items into an Ender Chest and simply leap into a pit of lava to "warp" home quickly.  Some players do this.  With Minecraft's low difficulty, these things aren't exactly hyper difficult to get).   The derpy part with NMS (and I don't like this bit) is that the rule changes when you're in space.  I don't understand why that is.  Games do this bit sometimes, that rule change, and it always bugs me.

That being said, this one is still actually a very weak point.  MOST games, and I really do mean most of them, do not penalize the player for dying.  Even the basic concept of "lives" is gone, these days.  Some of them don't even have the guts to PUSH THE PLAYER BACK A BIT.  They cant even do THAT.  You simply respawn WHERE YOU WERE.  God forbid we actually have the player feel like a failure, they might not buy the next 20 sequels.   Now THAT is ridiculous.  Even if NMS had no loss of items... what you DO lose is all the progress towards your destination (and this often means a very significant travel time that you must now do again).  It's the same with Minecraft... I often don't worry too much about lost items, because items are bloody everywhere, and chances are I've got a squillion backups even of armor back at base.  The reaction I have if I die stupidly somewhere is "Uuuuuuuugh I have to walk aaaalllllll that way again".  I get a much worse version of this reaction if I die in Starbound, where the trek back is *really* long in most cases.  But most games don't even do that.  Devs are too afraid of making the player feel like failures, so.... most of the time, the player cannot REALLY lose.   Some games even go so far as to give you a BOOST if you die in the same spot more than a couple of times. 


Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #181 on: November 29, 2016, 01:08:17 pm »
Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.

Minecraft's "bad" starts are not ones that instantly kill you.  That is: it is impossible for your initial spawn to be inside lava (as well as surface lava being pretty darn rare).  NMS seems to take the approach that your starting plant must be in some way hostile.  No simple grassy area for you, player, nope, have fun freezing to death/incinerating/melting/being poisoned/suffocating."  Which is dumb.

It's not that "sometimes proc gen means a bad start" (because I'll freely admit that it does) but that NMS seems to bias all starts as "bad" in some way.  There's a difference between randomly painful and intentional murder.  Minecraft is the former, NMS is the latter.

Which is fine for a certain group of players, but not for the type of audience that NMS has or appears to want.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #182 on: November 30, 2016, 03:44:56 am »
Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.

Minecraft's "bad" starts are not ones that instantly kill you.  That is: it is impossible for your initial spawn to be inside lava (as well as surface lava being pretty darn rare).  NMS seems to take the approach that your starting plant must be in some way hostile.  No simple grassy area for you, player, nope, have fun freezing to death/incinerating/melting/being poisoned/suffocating."  Which is dumb.

It's not that "sometimes proc gen means a bad start" (because I'll freely admit that it does) but that NMS seems to bias all starts as "bad" in some way.  There's a difference between randomly painful and intentional murder.  Minecraft is the former, NMS is the latter.

Which is fine for a certain group of players, but not for the type of audience that NMS has or appears to want.

Actually, it IS what they wanted.  That's the entire point.  That's why survival mode (which is what this is) exists whatsoever: because it was requested over and over and over. 

Minecraft, that comparison doesn't actually work.  The reason it doesn't kill you with a bad spawn is because it's freaking Minecraft.  AT ITS HARDEST the game is super easy.  Hell, having seen all the content in the game a million times over, there's one, and ONLY one thing in the game I consider genuinely dangerous, and it's the Wither.  And that's entirely because it's *very* badly designed and implemented (no, seriously, it's a freaking disaster).

For survival mode in NMS, that specific group of players you mention is, in fact, EXACTLY who it was made for.  Some of us genuinely wanted a high-difficulty survival challenge.  As in, where it's challenging to simply not be dead.   I dunno about everyone else, but that's what "survival challenge" means to me.

The original game mode still exists for those who DONT want that.  I'm told there have been some changes to that too (supposedly making it a bit more challenging?) but I cant confirm those as it's not something I care about now that the other mode is there, so I haven't bothered with it.

Besides, the sorts of starts you mention do *not* guarantee the player's death.  They guarantee that the player will have to actually think about what they're doing and understand the game in order to not die.  I still haven't encountered a genuinely unfair situation in the game yet, and I started on a real turdball of a planet.  No zinc anywhere nearby, Heridium is a million billion miles away, super cold temperature (which is WORSE than toxic/radioactive, because the effect doubles at night, and it's harder to recover from), stupid bitey plant things are bloody everywhere, and the landscape is very lumpy and difficult to get around.  And of course the ever-present sentinels.  I still haven't died again though (and the first time was really my own fault... there were things I COULD have done to avoid it; I simply didn't do those things).

And it's the norm for a survival game that your first area be just as hostile as everything else.  Note, I don't actually count Minecraft as a survival game.  I divide them up into two sets:  There's stuff like Minecraft, where it's more about building and you typically aren't worrying about true "survival" elements... I call those "sandbox" games most of the time, as long as I'm not getting my terms all tangled...  and then there's games like Don't Starve, which is more of an *actual* survival game to me, where absolutely bloody everything tries to make sure you die horribly, and the entire point of the game is not to.   There's a reason why the new NMS mode is called "survival" mode instead of just "hard" or whatever.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #183 on: November 30, 2016, 04:02:24 am »
Sounds to me like NMS needs something inbetween "I'm dead within a minute, and if I'm not I'm dead as soon as I leave the atmosphere" and "I've been playing for 20 hours without so much as a challenge and by god I'm bored oh god please help!"
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Mick

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #184 on: November 30, 2016, 07:34:27 am »
If there are no shelters on the starting planet along the way to your ship I suppose you just have to git gud harder or something. So balanced.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #185 on: November 30, 2016, 07:52:40 am »
Sounds to me like NMS needs something inbetween "I'm dead within a minute, and if I'm not I'm dead as soon as I leave the atmosphere" and "I've been playing for 20 hours without so much as a challenge and by god I'm bored oh god please help!"

Definitely.

My experience so far has been very different overall than with the previous version.   Previous version, it really was mostly about roaming and looking at stuff... and that was neat for awhile, I enjoyed it well enough, but I didn't have to think all that hard.

The new mode, though, is right on my level, and my time with it so far has been INTERESTING.   As it is, I got to the space station finally.  I have a surplus of the important resources (well, the ones that are important at this stage of the game).   I never had any "lucky find" moments, nothing like that.  Things were just as sparse throughout that whole wacky adventure.  The difference was that I started coming up with more and more techniques to squeeze additional use out of what I DID have, and prevent unnecessary wasting of things.  This is the sort of idea I want out of games I classify as "survival" games.  I expect to have to do these very things.  I also learned how to better deal with the accursed sentinels.  And most importantly (for my limited patience) learned how to get set up for mining/gathering at night without needing a cave.   The trip to get the bloody Heridium seemed like it was going to be A: impossible, and B: drain all of my resources, but.... nah.  I didn't die, and I got piles of things that I both could use right then and also that I knew I would be wanting later.


Of course, that's just me.  I'm used to games at the level of difficulty where this mode is.  A lot of people ARENT.  They *really* need a mode in between the two extremes.  This game is definitely at it's most enjoyable when you're playing it at a level that actually works with your own ability.   Unless of course you really are just there for the "chilled" experience, then it doesn't matter, Normal mode will do.  But for those that wanted more of a "game" out of it.... that's what this mode does, BUT, it's gone too far for many.   It's the sort of thing where I often would tell people "look at tutorial videos if you're having trouble".   Which.... yeah.   Definitely up there in difficulty, if THAT is the first bit of advice I come up with.  But even with all the procedural generation it never had actual unfair moments.... even in the barren wasteland (had to deal with a LONG section that was almost entirely flat, which in this mode is a Very Bad Thing, yet I had to bloody well cross it anyway... twice).  But figuring out how to use all the stuff around me was.... not easy.  I can say for certain that it is absolutely going to FEEL bloody impossible to some players.


That being said, the idea that the game ALWAYS starts you out on a hazardous nightmare world, well, it turns out that's not actually true.  Watched someone start this mode earlier.... and get a happy sunshine world (complete with small idiotic-looking bunny things).  Not that the idea of " just restart a lot" is a true solution of course.... one way or another I think it really just is going to need another variation of this mode.  But it's something.



Also, pirates:  nothing bad happened.   Though, I was REALLY careful about exactly WHAT I was carrying on my ship.  They may be more likely to attack, but they still don't ALWAYS attack.  They must still be pulled by something.   And I was in the "most likely combat zone" sort of place too, when I left the atmosphere, being that there was a huge fleet of cargo ships there (much higher chance of pirates around those).

I'll probably actually seek some pirates out the next time I fire the game up, just to see how that goes.  The stuff on the planet was enjoyable, but I have nothing to judge the current space combat on.


Quote
If there are no shelters on the starting planet along the way to your ship I suppose you just have to git gud harder or something. So balanced.

Well... yes, actually.   Honestly, it's not that different from learning any other survival game (which arguably is a problem with the genre entirely?). You learn the tricks of the trade, or the seemingly uninhabitable wasteland kills you.  In *every* real survival game I've played (and this goes for a lot of roguelikes too, as they very often kill you with "barren" areas as well, or worse) the whole "I'm totally out of stuff and this entire area is made of death and pain" thing happens in every single one of them when I'm learning the game in question.  Which is probably why I'm not exactly bothered by it in this one, because I've done this in games a few thousand times by now.

In this, when I started, "flat" areas with no caves/cover seemed impossible.  Now.... yeah, I know how to deal with them, and I DONT need to go into them with a squillionty resources first (actually I teleported half my stuff back to the ship before crossing a section like that, since I was sure it'd kill me; I figured that one way or another, I'd have to deal with it as I went along).  But it wasn't THAT bloody hard to figure out.

One issue is that the game rather makes you think that caves or buildings are the ONLY way to "shelter" yourself.   They aren't.   It also makes you think that you MUST have "shelter" to recharge your thermal unit.  There is another way, and it's not that hard to do (just like there are TWO, not one, ways to refuel your life support system even early on, but most players don't spot the second one).  The game makes you really obsess over the elements of Thamium and Plutonium... it DOESNT help you to understand what all of the others can do for you even before you've gotten your ship to function.

If they're going to keep the difficulty of the mode this high, it almost needs to explain its mechanics in a bit more depth.   Well, a lot more depth.  It's one of those situations where many players are dying.... when salvation might be RIGHT in front of them, but they're absolutely not spotting it because they don't know how it works. It didn't teach them, and they had no reason to learn it on their own before.  The game definitely has that issue.    And since the previous mode is just too freaking easy, even some players that played it ALOT may not spot these things that are now needed.



I'm going to be interested to see what happens next with this.   Not so much from my own point of view, but I mean wether or not they push forth any updates or whatever that do anything to alter the difficulty a bit, and how exactly they go about that.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 07:54:58 am by Misery »

Offline Mick

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #186 on: November 30, 2016, 08:29:44 am »
I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me the survival mode in NMS isn't shit.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #187 on: November 30, 2016, 09:08:15 am »
I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me the survival mode in NMS isn't shit.

*shrugs*

Not my problem.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #188 on: November 30, 2016, 12:54:37 pm »
This post and then I'm Done Forever with this thread:

Don't name it Survival, name it Hardcore.

This game got too much press, released too early, this patch does nothing substantial to fix the problems it has.  The game is still empty, the game is still grindy, and the game still lacks advertised features.

Sure, the rating has risen from 10% positive to 25% positive, but I still don't see a reason to pay $10 for this game, much less $60.

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #189 on: November 30, 2016, 05:46:56 pm »
I'd pay $10 for it, Its not the worst thing I'd have gotten for that much. Maybe $15. I'm certainly not paying $30+ for it however, not in its current state. And the online appears to actually be relevant to a degree, so its not really worth finding...other copies.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #190 on: December 01, 2016, 06:57:33 am »
This post and then I'm Done Forever with this thread:

Don't name it Survival, name it Hardcore.

This game got too much press, released too early, this patch does nothing substantial to fix the problems it has.  The game is still empty, the game is still grindy, and the game still lacks advertised features.

Sure, the rating has risen from 10% positive to 25% positive, but I still don't see a reason to pay $10 for this game, much less $60.

Frankly I'm surprised you weren't Done Forever with it quite some time ago.   The lack of interest is very clear, and your decision on the game was clearly formed LONG ago.... why even take part in this from the start?  I have a hard time believing that anyone on this forum would REALLY engage in the classic internet behavior of "hate on something I haven't tried just to hate on it because others do", thus I am at a loss as to the point.

All this thread is, mostly, is me describing my genuine impressions and experience with it:  And keep in mind I'm the very rare sort that DID NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE TO BEGIN WITH. I didn't even listen to it, due to not giving a fart about a game that was a freaking year away or more.  Frankly, nobody should have listened, just like with any other not-yet-released game.  So I'm able to simply look at it for what it IS, instead of for what it ISNT.  And then I give my honest thoughts on the matter.

If you don't agree with my thoughts on the matter, that's fine, I quite frankly EXPECT that most people wont agree with my thoughts about MOST games, but specifically sitting here JUST to poke holes in my ideas about the game seems like a bloody waste of time (particularly as you have not played it).   I'm aware I myself am typically negative as hell, but even I generally don't debate a game too much if I haven't already played it enough (thus, the Gungeon thread, which I DID play... and even then, I still took Wingflier's thoughts on it into regard, and kept up with it, it eventually did grow on me). 

And you, specifically, don't have the negativity I do.  Nobody else on this forum really does (that I can remember, or that I've actually spotted).  So.... why?

That's a genuine question, mind you (provided you see this).  As I've often said, I don't understand social crap half the time (IRL, I barely even talk) so stuff like this confuses me.  Maybe the answer is in my face, heck if I know...   Sure wouldn't be the first time.   


Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #191 on: December 01, 2016, 11:26:25 am »
Fine. Make me reply again.

Two things:
1) I want to know why people like things, because there's obviously something I'm missing
2) I'm bored

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #192 on: December 01, 2016, 11:40:42 am »
Fine. Make me reply again.

Two things:
1) I want to know why people like things, because there's obviously something I'm missing
2) I'm bored

Ah, okay, that makes more sense then.

I tend to have those same two reasons often, hah.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #193 on: December 01, 2016, 10:19:38 pm »
I think the reason so many people *CARE* about the game and thus we have a 13 page topic, is that deep down they wish this were an actual fun game (and not just a pointless exploration sandbox) with actual production values and tons of cash attached, because they want to play a game like it ^^ But they also hope NMS might turn around, only to be disappointed in the end.

I think there is still a market for a game like NMS just less hyped and more developed. With better source art for the procedural gen, with better planet algo, with better ship algo, with better anything and everything. In essence, NMS is really only a show-of-concept...  and developers are now scared to follow it through. Because NMS fell primarily over its hype. Had they been honest up-front in how limited this sandbox is....

But modesty doesn't move a ton of copies.
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
« Reply #194 on: December 01, 2016, 11:29:45 pm »
I think the reason so many people *CARE* about the game and thus we have a 13 page topic, is that deep down they wish this were an actual fun game (and not just a pointless exploration sandbox) with actual production values and tons of cash attached, because they want to play a game like it ^^

Most of the posts here that drive this are from me, and frankly I'm not someone that gives a fart about production values or any of that crap.   I do not and never have understood WHY people obsess so much about that.  I grew up with games on the ancient 2600 and NES, and tend to consider things like that as being dramatically better than many (nearly all) major AAA games today.  That's not an exaggeration, believe it or not.

As it is, it's not a matter of "wishing" for those things in my case... the game is doing a good job at the things I've mentioned.  Previous versions of the game were too bloody easy, and nobody needed to explore the game's additional mechanics (though I did it anyway, in case it was necessary to know later on, which turned out to be the case), or most of the crafting system.  With this update, that has changed.   This is already a "game"; exploration was the focus before the update, NOT DYING is the focus AFTER the update if the game is played in Survival mode.   I always get the feeling that when people say it isn't, particularly after the update, what they ACTUALLY mean (or at least partially mean) is "it doesn't have cutscenes or story". Apparently that's what makes a "game" these days. I facedesk, which is my usual response to people rambling about those things in games.  NOT having those things is, honestly, my preference, and makes me more likely to pick up a given game.  I usually avoid games that have either of those two things.  Don't want.  Exceptions are very, very rare.

Production values, on the other hand, usually just make me suspicious.  If a developer has concentrated too hard on graphics, chances are that A: it'll have cutscenes, and B: the actual gameplay will suffer (and be way too easy, because God forbid the player not reach the end of the all-important STORY, they might not buy the next 80 sequels if that happens).  The only AAA game I've bought in years is Overwatch.  Multiplayer competitive games CANT be "too easy" because the difficulty is created by your opponents.   If there's been another AAA purchase I've made, I've forgotten about it.  Wait, no, there was Diablo 3, though I didn't stick with that for all that long as my arm kept acting up (too much mouse).  Suddenly occurs to me that I could give that and PoE another go finally.... hmm.  I just might do that.

And if people STILL don't like it overall... they can go join the Biggest Hype Train Ever, that of Star Citizen, a hype train SO freaking huge that the UNFINISHED game (where MILLIONS have been spent yet the game isn't even remotely close to BEING remotely close to finished) has ENTIRE CONVENTIONS RELATED TO IT.  Frankly, I'm expecting a violently explosive failure of the most epic proportions the industry has ever seen; the goals of the game are just WAY too lofty, and the developer is way too shady.  I'll be watching that one upon it's release.  With popcorn.  And a blast shield.  But we'll see what happens.  Though I've no intention of touching that one even if it's a masterpiece... it's an MMO, after all.  Screw that genre with a fork.