Arcen Games

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Misery on August 08, 2016, 10:18:36 PM

Title: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 08, 2016, 10:18:36 PM
Yep, so it's finally here.  One of the most hyped games in recent memory (well, in my recent memory anyway) and one of the very few that I've been excited about for a long time before it even comes out, which is something I normally reserve only for games I can actively test during their development.

This was supposed to release a few weeks ago, as I'm sure everyone here knows... I had been pretty freaking irritated when I heard about that last-minute delay.  Having now found out the actual reasons behind it.... yeah, that irritation went out the window.   They basically pulled an Arcen, is how I'm phrasing it (hah).   Grand, sweeping changes at the last minute.  Which all sound pretty great, honestly.  Really, I love that indie devs can do stuff like that.  The big AAA guys would NEVER do this, even in situations when it might drastically improve their game.

So I'm wondering, are any of you guys planning on getting this?  I expect that most here would be buying the PC version, if any of you are getting it.   I personally have anti-patience, so I'm just going to grab the console version tomorrow and probably grab the PC version later, because why not.   

I'll be detailing some of my experiences here.   Emphasis on "detail", as per the usual.


For those that might be interested, the big list of changes/additions can be seen here:  http://www.no-mans-sky.com/2016/08/update-1-03/


Entertainingly, this means that those that were so excited about being able to get pre-release copies actually didn't get to see quite a lot of the game's content.  Kinda sucks for the guy that paid over $1000 to get a copy.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 08, 2016, 10:43:19 PM
I've heard its very bland and devoid of a lot of content. I.e. "oh hey a rock" every ten feet, and that sums things up beyond shooting the rock to collect resources so that you can upgrade your ability to carry more resources.  There's a lot of stuff, but it's not terribly interesting stuff.

Also single player.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: wwwhhattt on August 08, 2016, 10:51:15 PM
It sounds like there's a lot of space for wandering around looking at pretty things, which sounds perfect for me. Wont have anything I can play it on for a while though.

It'll be interesting to see how it copes with expectations.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 08, 2016, 11:07:56 PM
I've heard its very bland and devoid of a lot of content. I.e. "oh hey a rock" every ten feet, and that sums things up beyond shooting the rock to collect resources so that you can upgrade your ability to carry more resources.  There's a lot of stuff, but it's not terribly interesting stuff.

Also single player.

To be honest, something like this starting a bit low on content is kinda what I expect at this point... not all that bothered by that, I've seen so many games now release in that state.  It seems though that these guys are pretty focused on adding more stuff though.   Even something like Terraria, which is now known for having a bloody absurd amount of content, was pretty low on it at release.   And the less said about Minecraft's early days, the better.  I remember when chickens were new and exciting.  CHICKENS. 

Not just that, but from what I understand from reading about and watching bits of the game, one reason for what seems like a lack of content is that for whatever reason, planets with lots of STUFF on them were set to be very rare (wut?), in the version of the game that the leaked copies were.  So players kept encountering a lot of barren planets, instead of ones teeming with life.   You know, the sorts of big lush planets full of things to look at and do that were shown in trailers, those were apparently super rare.   I doubt this'll remain the case for long (if it's not already changed) because it'd detract from the experience.   Though in all honesty, what IS there is already pretty interesting to me (but then I'm the sort that even IRL finds places like desert regions to be endlessly fascinating despite being made mostly of rock and sand). And I do understand the reasoning behind having some things be pretty rare, but I don't think that's quite the RIGHT thing to have be rare.  It'll get balanced out over time though, I'm sure.   Though I think I do know what the reasoning was for having this specific type of planet be very rare.

The big thing that gets me though:  the lack of doing things like building up a base and such.   Granted, yes, a huge focus here is on exploring and such... I definitely get that.  Plenty of sandbox games have that sort of focus, I've certainly played many like that (hell, Starbound is like that).  But the ability to build a base/home or even set up on a space station as a base just makes so much sense that it's odd that it's not in the initial release.  But it's nice to hear that it's coming.   Though exploration should remain the main focus.

And SCREW THE WINDOWS KEY.   Whose dimwitted idea was it to have that stupid thing on a keyboard in the position where it is?

*ahem*

Either way, I guess I'll find out tomorrow.

I'm kinda expecting that people's opinions on this game are going to be kinda polarized, as is often the case for big, hyped games.  Kinda expecting what I'm now calling the Starbound Response with this one; where there's players that just adore it, players that just hate it, and not all that many that are in between.



As for the multiplayer thing, ehhhh.... I'll be honest, that's NOT what I wanted out of this game to begin with.  I just... don't care. It's the same for me as it is with Minecraft and those games;  I want my world to be MINE, and the absolute last thing I want to do is to be in a player group where I have to WAIT for people to do things, or watch them do things that are bloody stupid... gotten enough of that from MMOs. That being said, it seems the devs have gotten at least a bit of the message from the playerbase on this topic; they're adding the ability to have discovered systems appear marked on the galactic map.  AKA, with enough coordination, you could probably work with friends to find each other based on discovered/named planets and regions within the galaxy.    Though this also makes it easy at the same time for players such as myself that want nothing to do with that.  Rather expecting though that they'll add a bit more to the game later to make multiplayer more feasible, if only to shut people up.

But we'll see what happens!  I'm going to try to find as much detail as I can about all these things once I have the game.  I'll also TRY not to sound like a ball of angry hatred when discussing it but I make no promises.  Even when I like something I still tend to sound like that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 09, 2016, 06:10:31 AM
I swear, every time I go to download something on a damn console, it makes me appreciate Steam that much more.

10000 years from now, this should be ready to play.   Sigh.   On Steam this download would have finished last week.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 09, 2016, 07:09:39 AM
I can understand the desire for SP, but the are those who want to explore together.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 09, 2016, 10:18:27 AM
Well, some interesting experiences so far....  the biggest issue I have is that the game has some... problems... with explaining itself.  Which is to say, it doesn't.  Good luck firing out where to find Thaumium and Zinc, for instance (which you need to repair a couple of things at the start, not to mention that they also have to do with fuel).  It's obvious that you have a mining laser, sure.   It's NOT obvious that these two things come from FLOWERS.  No mining involved.    Then there's the Pulse Drive... once I got the damn ship to move, after my eternal search for bloody Thaumium ended, it said I could use the Pulse Drive to get around faster.  Okay, makes sense. Couldn't figure out how to get it to STOP at the spot I was aiming at.  Eventually bounced off the nearest asteroid and sorta ricocheted a bunch.  Immediately found out I wasn't using it properly, of course, but the game doesn't tell you this.   It just says "hit these two buttons to use pulse drive!". 

Though, that's not THAT much of a complaint:  I've never, EVER seen a game of this genre that actually explains itself.  Never.   Some of them sorta make a pretense of doing it, but many seriously don't bother.  So I'm used to this aspect.

As for the gameplay... yep, this is a survival game.  It's very exploration focused, but as in most survival games you're going to have a lot of things you need to do in order to keep yourself going.  Your suit needs power, your mining thingie and gun need power, your ship needs power, there's temperature to worry about in some places,you need various resources to craft important gizmos.... and as is also typical you never have even close to enough inventory space.  There's always resources and items to find, you always WANT them, but you sometimes just cant HAVE them.  The usual, really.   And it can be easy to get lost in certain types of areas... best to be careful when exploring caves in particular.

Much of my time so far was spent doing a few things:

1.  Wandering around looking for stuff
2.  Mining
3.  Getting shot at, running from horrible laser thing; this happened more than a few times
4.  More gathering resources as I headed to various waypoints, displayed as "?" marks, they are where you're likely to find abandoned buildings or other interesting things, there's usually rewards for doing this; the trouble is getting to them, of course
5.  Trying to figure out what interaction with animals does
6.  Trying to figure out why I was being bitten by a tiny crab made of leaves
7.  Falling in holes
8.  Got lost in a cave for quite awhile (after all the survival/sandbox games I've played, you'd think I'd know to be careful about that by now, but noooooo)
9.  Eternal search for blasted flowers.  It eventually turned out that.... yeah, I needed to look near the big obvious place stuffed with a million plants and things.  I suppose maybe I should have thought that out a bit harder.  I'm blaming the weather.   Still, they're oddly hard to spot...


Interestingly, the planet I started on seemed barren at first, but some exploration revealed that this wasn't entirely the case.   There were places to find with lots of animals and big plant/tree/something things, but the planet wasn't drowning in them.  Desert world, actually. 

The game's controls work quite nicely, though obviously I'm stuck on a damn console with it for the time being.  But there's absolutely no issue with that part.  The UI works nicely too. All of this both for being on the ground, and being in space.   Flying the ship is fun, though you have "liftoff thrusters" that have their own fuel source... every time you start up the ship it'll take a big blob of that away, so you cant just be constantly leaping from one spot on the planet to the next.  This is good, because if this wasn't the case there'd be no need to ever actually be on foot for any reason.   Considering how huge the game is though, sometimes some distances are just... too far, so you're going to want to do that.  At one point, after finding a huge beacon thing, it marked down a location for an "advanced life form" on my radar thing.  A quick look at it determined that it was a 20 minute walk away.   ......yep, used the ship for that!  Found some alien's home there, couldn't understand a damn thing he said.

I mighta not taken quite as long to leave the planet if it wasn't for my usual obsessive need to investigate damn near everything.  I do that in Minecraft and the others as well.  Got specific things I need to do?  No no, that's gotta wait, there's a huge rock here, gotta see what's on the other side of that first, it's imperative, the universe will clearly collapse if I don't...    Honestly, easily distracted players will find themselves... well, frequently distracted.


Graphics are just lovely, the game is gorgeous really.   They did a great job with color schemes and lighting to make different areas stand out from one another.  Also space is apparently green now.  No, I don't know why...


Overall, the damn flowers aside, this is pretty much just what I'd hoped it'd be.  Is it perfect?  Ye gods, no.  Of course it isn't.  But the devs seem very committed to dealing with what problems it has and adding to it, so that's good.  Overall though, I'm loving the game so far.  This sure isn't going to be for everyone.... particularly those that for whatever utterly baffling reason were expecting a big AAA game that's extremely story driven.  There seem to be more than a few people out there that are angry that the game ISNT that.   Seriously, I don't know where they get some of these misconceptions.


Currently I must go to bed, and have stopped and saved my game in a nearby space station.  Later I'll continue and see what happens.  Hopefully further travel will not require bouncing off more asteroids.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 09, 2016, 10:27:08 AM
looks like something ill really enjoy if I can get the frame at a good enough pace ill put some time into it.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on August 09, 2016, 01:07:55 PM
That sounds surprisingly good.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 09, 2016, 10:51:41 PM
BLASTED THING NEEDS TO STOP CRASHING.

EDIT:   Well, the crashing stopped entirely as soon as I disabled the PS4's internet connection.   So that's good.   Now I can get back to being repeatedly attacked by space crabs.   
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: mrhanman on August 10, 2016, 08:27:25 AM
I've been interested in this game from the start.  Not $60 interested, though, so I'm going to wait for a sale.  I might snatch it at $30, but right now it looks too empty for full price.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 10, 2016, 08:54:51 AM
I've said this MANY times before about hyped games.

*sits down, takes a deep breath and waits for port reports and reviews and let's play videos before forking over money to a studio that has nearly no reputation whatsoever*
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 10, 2016, 08:15:17 PM
I've said this MANY times before about hyped games.

*sits down, takes a deep breath and waits for port reports and reviews and let's play videos before forking over money to a studio that has nearly no reputation whatsoever*

Oh, sure, I can typically understand that.

Normally I do the same, but I'd heard enough about this one (specifically, enough that wasn't wild internet rumors) to know what I was getting myself into.

That being said, this one... for me at least... has turned out to be exactly what I thought it would.

I know there's a lot of people complaining about the game, but when I look around and read some of that, pretty much *all* of them seem to have gone into this with a TON of random misconceptions that I assume came from the chaos of the Internet over the years.  They expect something like Elite Dangerous here, or whatever, when that's not even close to what this is.   Not that the space-flight portions of the game aren't fun, mind you, because they are, but yeah, this is NOT Elite and plays nothing like it.    Among other things that it DOESNT play like, that everyone seems to have thought it would.

Frankly, I find the whole thing baffling.  I know hyped games and in-development games can be hard to follow, but there's even more misconceptions with this one than there are usually.   It's ridiculous.

Either way, I'll have more to write up about it later; I spent most of yesterday playing this, time which I do not regret.  It took me about 10 squillion years to finally get Hyperdrive going... because I kept getting distracted by shiny things and also decided that I *had* to have a new ship before leaving the system (yay, greed).... but it's been a pretty interesting experience getting to that point. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 10, 2016, 08:26:24 PM
I have just one question to ask and that is is there anything that attacks you on foot? I ask mainly because form all the footage I've seen there doesn't appear to be a single thing of the sort.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 10, 2016, 08:35:41 PM
I have just one question to ask and that is is there anything that attacks you on foot? I ask mainly because form all the footage I've seen there doesn't appear to be a single thing of the sort.

Hostile creatures / monsters.

They do a widely varying amount of damage.  Some of them don't hurt you too much, others hit like a freight train, and having your personal shield go down is all sorts of bad.  Oddly there is a type of flower that restores your shields if picked (???) but it's fairly rare; there's also one that restores your health.  Mostly it's best to do everything you can to avoid taking damage.  When dealing with hostile creatures, you have the option of simply killing them, or if you don't want to do that, doing enough damage to simply scare them off.   With Sentinels though (the robots), unless you can find a really good hiding spot (typically a building), you have to fight them off, and quickly, because they constantly summon more robotic jerks.   There are grounded robots, too, you just don't see them as often because they don't appear unless summoned.  Where as the basic floating Sentinels are freaking everywhere.   Seriously, it's hard to go 5 minutes without running into a couple of those things.

Oddly, Sentinels aren't inherently hostile (usually).   They react to what you're doing; they seem to have this big issue with you breaking/destroying basically anything.  If you smash something up for instance, and Sentinels are around, you can often watch them sort of hover over the spot and scan it; or if they're feeling irritable or whatever, they'll hover over YOU and just keep flooding your view with this blue scan beam.   Do too much more when they're clearly watching you, and they summon their unpleasant friends.  The longer you let them go without destroying them, the more enemies get summoned.   Sentinels of all sorts will also attack *instantly* when you break into locked buildings, which you'll run into every now and then (and needless to say, there's always STUFF inside that you want).   When that happens though I think they give up a little too quickly, I'd like to see that changed a bit.  Which is odd, as Sentinels that have been angered by basically anything else are EXTREMELY persistent and very hard to shake.


On the note of things attacking you, I didn't mention it before (I think) but dying in this game can be pretty harsh.   I have no idea just what happens if you explode in space, but on the ground, well.... if you know what the term "corpse run" means, that's pretty much what happens here.  So it's a very, very good idea to be bloody careful; avoiding confrontation and only fighting when absolutely necessary is the way to go.  Fairly typical of survival games, that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 10, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
how common are these robots? I ask mainly because from what I've seen you need to be constantly grabbing stuff and since those robots sound like they get pissy at you doing any of that that it might suck the fun out of the game for me if I'm constantly being forced to get into fights with them.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 10, 2016, 09:18:14 PM
how common are these robots? I ask mainly because from what I've seen you need to be constantly grabbing stuff and since those robots sound like they get pissy at you doing any of that that it might suck the fun out of the game for me if I'm constantly being forced to get into fights with them.

They're everywhere, but it differs from one planet to the next.  When you land on a planet it typically gives you some info about it... telling you how common plants/animals are, and the temperature, and various other things, and one of the things it gives you info on is the Sentinels, how common or rare they are there and stuff like that.  So it can vary quite a bit.  The trick though is to simply pay attention to the things when they're floating around nearby, and choose your spots wisely.  They aren't exactly a stealthy group, it's obvious when they are hanging around.  Just be careful about where you do your thing.   They don't seem to appear in caves (though they absolutely will follow you into them if you've aggravated them).

Also worth noting that not EVERYTHING sets them off.  Picking flowers and such (something you'll do commonly) or interacting with special objects like monoliths doesn't irritate them, nor does taking loot from boxes (not AS common, but as these can be valuable you'll be seeking them out).  Killing animals gets them irked pretty fast if they see you do it, so having something attack you while Sentinels are around can be bad, unless you're careful enough to fire just enough to scare the animal off instead of kill it.  And needless to say, actually attacking a Sentinel causes an instant berserk response.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 11, 2016, 12:56:09 AM
Okay, some more experiences thus far:

Firstly, I should point out a bit of a gameplay thing here.   Combat, on the ground... pretty clunky.   Now, it's absolutely possible this is an effect of the fact that I'm using a bloody controller for this.  I mean, really.   First person gameplay, controller.   So it's hard to entirely judge this.   But my experience with it so far, nonetheless, is "clunky".

Space combat on the other hand... here I was, thinking that this wasn't going to happen anytime soon... I'd wondered if maybe it was a bit too rare... when suddenly the ship went berserk with warnings, and BAM, pirates.  In comparison to ground combat this is MUCH faster and more exciting.  It's not going to be on-par with something like Elite... definitely not.  But is it fun?  I daresay it is.  Fast and chaotic definitely sums this up.  I came REALLY close to dying there; enemy pilots are very good at zooming around all over the place and not making easy targets of themselves, and are also good at shooting me, apparently.  It is possible to recharge your shields mid-combat, but this isn't easy to do; you have to open your inventory for the ship and pump resources into the shields (typically Zinc, so far).   This takes time, so you have to be careful about when you do it.  I was able to survive the battle and defeat the pirates mostly because the ship I'd bought was a combat vessel, complete with four weapon upgrades already installed.  But no shield upgrades, so I'm now on a quest to get the elements I need to complete this.   Either way though, I'm REALLY glad I bought a new ship BEFORE leaving the first system.  As many players have said, the starting ship is craptastic. It's expensive as all hell to buy a new ship, but it's worth it.

And following that bit of info, it's obvious that I did in fact figure out HOW and where to buy a new ship.  There's no big dealers or anything where you go and select from a pile of ships... that's not how it works.  How it works is you find other pilots that have landed somewhere.  They can be found in space stations, or in various types of places on planets (these are pretty obvious once you see them).  You can interact with the pilots, and buy/sell them things (each having their own inventories and things they want, affecting the prices on stuff), but you also have the option to buy their ship.  They ALL offer this.  You can have a look at their ship's setup and installed tech VS whatever you already have, so it's easy to make a comparison.  Ships are expensive as all hell, and money isn't the easiest thing to get in this game (this is a good thing, by my view; when resources are too plentiful, particularly money, in a game like this, it's a problem).   I saved up money for this due to a gold rush.  I mean an actual gold rush, in that I found huge lumps of gold on a particular planet; bloody lucky find.  Dug up TONS of it, sold it for massive amounts of money.   This still took awhile, but it was worth it to get the ship. 

The ONE thing I really, really, REALLY don't like about buying new ships:  You outright LOSE your entire inventory in your current ship when you do this.  It's just gone.  So if you have valuable stuff... and you will....  you need to transfer as much of it to your suit's inventory as you can before making the trade.  Or sell it, of course.  Fortunately, most places where alien ships can land will also have a trading machine somewhere nearby, I've yet to find a spot where this isn't the case (they aren't JUST found on space stations).   That's really the only complaint I have so far, when it comes to the economy and buying/selling stuff.  The rest of it is pretty well done.

Upgrading your suit is a totally different matter.  You have to find these "drop pods"... not an easy task... and those contain a suit "upgrade" that you can buy for a high price.  By "upgrade" I mean "new inventory slot".  When it comes to other types of upgrades, it's all about crafting and installing tech.  Tech does take up inventory slots, but these are things you really want.  There's tech for your suit, your ship, and your multi-tool (used for mining, shooting things, and launching bizarre grenades that aren't just for fighting).   There's tons of different types of techs, and you cannot buy these; you have to find their recipes.  After a time, you learn what sorts of places will have these, but finding them is never a fast process.  It does make the acquisition of new techs pretty satisfying when you get them.  Then all you have to do is craft them and install.   I like this particular game mechanic quite a bit.


So yeah, I've managed to leave the first system... I'll not spoil the events that you need to go through to do this... and have done a heck of a lot more ground and space exploration than I had at the start.  I also learned the value of asteroid mining.  And the value of not crashing into asteroids.  It is easy to crash into asteroids.  I recommend not doing this.

I also had one moment where I'm using the accelerator system to zoom forward at high speed, travelling in space above a planet (what I was trying to do was reach an extremely distant spot on a planet without it taking FORTY MINUTES, which is how long it would have taken if I flew through atmosphere), when out of nowhere, this huge pile of cargo ships just warps RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.  Like, nearly on top of me.  Absolutely scared the crap out of me.   Rather glad that nobody I know was around to hear my high pitched squeak of surprise.   I mean, seriously, I just about jumped out of my chair.   Needless to say this interrupted my space zooming.  I cant even imagine what the chances of this event occurring must be.  You'll see cargo ships and freighters warp into place every now and then, but for them to do THAT... yeah.  Didn't expect it, nope.

I also had one moment on the ground where I landed my ship on my own head.  Just... don't ask.  I have no explanation that makes something resembling sense. 

I also learned all the uses of the scanner, one of it's key abilities being the registration of new things.  You can scan animals, plants, and rocks.  These discoveries are registered into your data thingie (separate screen), and you can upload them to get some credits; this is a good way to earn them.  Eventually I managed to register 100% of stuff on a particular planet, and learned that you get a really enormous amount of money for doing this.  Needless to say, this is not easy to do.  I was lucky in that it was a planet that contained no hostile animals.   The horrible biting tentacle plants (no, seriously) were an issue though.

I like the scanning system overall... not just the registration bit, I mean the "wide scan" that flows over the landscape and reveals stuff.  Without this, resource hunting would be all sorts of tedious.  It's a good mechanic.

Lastly, I discovered how to buy new multi-tools.  This is the most obscure bit of buying that you'll do; I expect a lot of players take quite awhile before they figure out just how to do this.



So there, that's some more experience with the game.  Definitely enjoying it, particularly once I got it to stop crashing.  The crashes really do seem network related, I haven't had even one since turning that off.  I'm not going to put it back on until the servers have had a chance to stop being super stressed out.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 11, 2016, 06:26:31 PM
Now, it's absolutely possible this is an effect of the fact that I'm using a bloody controller for this.  I mean, really.   First person gameplay, controller.
Are you insane? Why on Earth would you do such a thing? O_o
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 11, 2016, 07:39:36 PM
Now, it's absolutely possible this is an effect of the fact that I'm using a bloody controller for this.  I mean, really.   First person gameplay, controller.
Are you insane? Why on Earth would you do such a thing? O_o

Because apparently the very concept of allowing a console to use a mouse/keyboard or something like that still has yet to occur to developers in any way.

It is sad.  Truly sad.  And annoying.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Cyborg on August 11, 2016, 08:15:03 PM
Did someone delete my post?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Dominus Arbitrationis on August 11, 2016, 08:18:03 PM
Did someone delete my post?

Nope. We were doing some behind-the-scenes server maintenance so if you posted during the roughly 30 seconds the service was refreshing, it would have been culled automatically.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Cyborg on August 11, 2016, 08:36:18 PM
I watched the game on twitch. Looks boring. The only thing that seems interesting about this game is the sheer size of it, and the ability to basically pick up the kaleidoscope and see what it shows today. But none of the gameplay whether it be combat, collecting crap and turning it in, or the NPC interactions feel like they are contributing anything different than what we've already seen. Even the mining mechanic looks familiar and repetitive.

That's not even to mention the controversy around whether or not someone else can affect your game. RPS has more information on that topic.

I will be waiting for a sale and might not pick it up at all.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 11, 2016, 11:29:43 PM
I watched the game on twitch. Looks boring. The only thing that seems interesting about this game is the sheer size of it, and the ability to basically pick up the kaleidoscope and see what it shows today. But none of the gameplay whether it be combat, collecting crap and turning it in, or the NPC interactions feel like they are contributing anything different than what we've already seen. Even the mining mechanic looks familiar and repetitive.

That's not even to mention the controversy around whether or not someone else can affect your game. RPS has more information on that topic.

I will be waiting for a sale and might not pick it up at all.

To be honest though, these things are exactly what should be expected.

I seriously cannot stress this enough:  This is a SURVIVAL genre game.  This, as a rule, is how these play.  You're going to do a lot of repetitious actions, there's usually very little (if any!) NPC interaction (if you're in a populated area, constantly dealing with NPCs... how is it a survival game?  Survival games happen in the wild, or in decimated areas... these are the only places where they make sense).  You have various needs that must constantly be tended to, things that must be sought out... it's what pretty much every game in the genre does.  I've never seen an exception (except for Starbound's bizarrely populated zones that you'll encounter every now and then, but those very definitely have their own unique problems), and don't really expect to.... until Arcen does theirs, that is.

Even the mining bit is what it should be.  Mining by definition is repetitive.  It's basically digging, after all... I cant imagine what anyone else expects from it.   Some players (such as myself) find this sort of thing very satisfying to do.  Lord knows just how much of it I've done over these years since Minecraft appeared, and I've honestly never really tired of it.

The game absolutely isn't for everyone, which is another thing I keep telling people when they ask me about it.  If they really enjoy games of this genre, this might be for them.  But if they are the sort of player that needs constant explosions or big set-piece moments... this game is a no-go, because it just isn't about that.


That all being said, there are definitely certain elements of the game that I genuinely think need to be worked on.   Combat, for instance.... I don't mean the way it WORKS, I mean the nature of your enemies.  Sentinels can actually make things very interesting, for instance, BUT, the basic Sentinels... which are the key to everything.... go down WAY too easily.  They are necessary for their buddies, the big bad bots, to even show up.  They need more HP, they need to be more evasive, or there needs to just be some wandering larger bots that show up sometimes.  Much of the threat the game generates on the ground actually comes from predators, as some of them hit like freight trains.   But it should be the robots that are the most dangerous.   And I hear that this is the case.... for the bigger bots.  But they just never appear because the normal Sentinels go down too easily.   I'd like to see this changed (or modded), and rather expect that it will be (since the problem is just very, very obvious). 

Oddly, games of this genre tend to have combat issues as a whole... why this is, I'm never entirely sure, but it does seem to pretty much always be the case.  Show me a survival game that has combat in it, and I can show you a list of complaints that I have with that combat, even if I end up having a decently good time doing it when it happens.


As for the controversy bit... it's seriously irrelevant.  At least for now.   The devs have expressed the desire to add proper multiplayer to the game later on, after the community expressed extreme desire for this to be the case, but for the time being, it is irrelevant.  My guess is that multiplayer will likely be the next thing to be tackled after the base building and freighter-owning are in the game (as those are the next things coming). 

Though, as the controversy bit goes, I personally don't think it's "controversy" or lies:  instead, it is bugged.  I'm just going to go on the record and say that the things the game does online are... kinda glitchy at times.   And the server is very clearly stressed to hell right now.  It goes down frequently. Those two things combined mean fairly obvious problems. They'll fix this in time (certainly before proper multiplayer appears) but I expect it to be a slow-ish process, as issues like this aren't easy to deal with.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 12, 2016, 01:23:09 AM
SO.  SPACE BLOODY COMBAT.

I honestly cant tell if there's a really, really nasty bug here, or if it's yet another instance of the game not bothering to explain things, but....

You're supposed to be able to get targeting info on enemy ships.  And by targeting info, I mean a target lead, when firing at them.  So you can, you know, see where to shoot so your attacks actually land.

Originally, the game was doing this.

Now, I get into a battle with 5 pirates, which is tough enough... specifically, a battle I initiated by heading towards a distress signal (which apparently is a thing that can happen), and I get into the fight, enable the guns, aaaaaand.... no targeting info.  At all.  It just refused.  Needless to say, no damage inflicted on ANYTHING.  They cannot be hit without that; it's impossible.  PARTICULARLY on a bloody console, which I'm beginning to despise more and more as I keep playing;  seriously, I don't understand how anyone can play an FPS on one of these accursed things.   ....frankly I don't know how anyone can play MOST games on one of these.   There's a reason the damn things usually just collect dust for me.

Anyway, that fight attempt was.... extremely chaotic.  I will say it was exciting as heck; the structure that they were attacking had funky holes in it, which I kept diving through to get them off me long enough to recharge shields before beginning a desperate escape.   Full pulse drive is disabled during space combat, so there was only one escape:  the planet below.  This got pretty nuts as I'm diving straight at it with the basic pulse drive, needing over a full minute to actually reach atmosphere.   A lot of weaving to keep as much damage off as possible, while also draining the rest of my shield-compatible resources.   Nearing the last of those shields, I hit atmosphere, they're still coming.   If you're going fast enough you get that "burning up" effect going (though it does no damage, but it sure is cool), so that just made it more dramatic.   I'm still trying to get out of the way.  I finally get to the surface, and make what was probably the fastest landing I've done yet; the ship's shields were GONE by this point, and based on the structure HP, one more shot would have finished it.   Finally get out of the damn thing... ending combat, barely.... and am immediately attacked by a pile of sentinels, because why the hell not.  This wasn't really a fight I could win, so the last resort:  pumped a string of bolt grenades (the only way to destroy normal terrain) into the ground, and dove into the resulting hole, landing hard in the cave maze below.  After about 10 seconds the sentinels finally went away.

Now, I wont say that all of that escaping wasn't fun, because it was.  And stuff like that might be necessary at times even when targeting isn't bugging out, because it's absolutely possible to get overwhelmed.   But the fact that it did that at all is... very frustrating.

I also have learned that pirates have a much higher chance of targeting you and appearing if you have really valuable cargo.  So if you find something super valuable on a planet, and want to sell it, you might want to consider seeking out some place on the planet that has a trade interface, otherwise you risk attack.


Now, I begin a quest to effectively get the ship back into flying shape; the technology stuff isn't damaged, but the bloody thing is in no condition to risk even a bit of danger.   Zinc, I need zinc badly.   Let it be known that zinc is actually really important, if you want to not explode in space.  Flowers protect your ship, thusly, since all zinc comes from yellow flowers (unless you buy some of course).

I'm just lucky that the combat happened just above the planet;  you CAN get attacked during full pulse drive movement, which is.... bad.   There's no escaping from that, because the distances to anything are too far to ever reach without re-entering full pulse drive.  But that happening seems a lot more rare (has only happened one time so far, and it was just two pirate ships that time).


So.... yeah.  That happened.

Considering the game's tendancy to not explain a damn thing, I really need to try to figure out if i'm missing something with the targeting thing.  Is there something I'm not activating, or accidentally turned off?  Or is it really a bug?  I have no idea.

Though again, the damn console doesn't help.  I'm going to be so glad for the PC version...
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 14, 2016, 12:59:07 AM
SO.  SPACE BLOODY COMBAT.

I honestly cant tell if there's a really, really nasty bug here, or if it's yet another instance of the game not bothering to explain things, but....

You're supposed to be able to get targeting info on enemy ships.  And by targeting info, I mean a target lead, when firing at them.  So you can, you know, see where to shoot so your attacks actually land.

Originally, the game was doing this.

Now, I get into a battle with 5 pirates, which is tough enough... specifically, a battle I initiated by heading towards a distress signal (which apparently is a thing that can happen), and I get into the fight, enable the guns, aaaaaand.... no targeting info.  At all.  It just refused.  Needless to say, no damage inflicted on ANYTHING.

I've seen this same bug on every stream after that person got a new ship with preinstalled beam laser (which is, like.. all of them?). Suddenly when they switched to plasma, it said "charge 0%" and "insert oxide" which quite a few of them commented wasn't a thing they could do. One even went into the menu and showed it, the weapon does not require oxide and can not be charged. But at 0% it doesn't offer targeting, the fun part when he fired the beam laser it damaged his own ship instead of the enemies. And while you can remove the beam laser, this does not fix the bugged plasma guns.... at 0% charge auto targeting thinks you are not actually able to shoot I guess?

So there seems to be a lot of brokenness in this ;) Good thing I didn't actually buy this..  for once my tingly senses warned me of impeding overhyped mediocrity.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 14, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
SO.  SPACE BLOODY COMBAT.

I honestly cant tell if there's a really, really nasty bug here, or if it's yet another instance of the game not bothering to explain things, but....

You're supposed to be able to get targeting info on enemy ships.  And by targeting info, I mean a target lead, when firing at them.  So you can, you know, see where to shoot so your attacks actually land.

Originally, the game was doing this.

Now, I get into a battle with 5 pirates, which is tough enough... specifically, a battle I initiated by heading towards a distress signal (which apparently is a thing that can happen), and I get into the fight, enable the guns, aaaaaand.... no targeting info.  At all.  It just refused.  Needless to say, no damage inflicted on ANYTHING.

I've seen this same bug on every stream after that person got a new ship with preinstalled beam laser (which is, like.. all of them?). Suddenly when they switched to plasma, it said "charge 0%" and "insert oxide" which quite a few of them commented wasn't a thing they could do. One even went into the menu and showed it, the weapon does not require oxide and can not be charged. But at 0% it doesn't offer targeting, the fun part when he fired the beam laser it damaged his own ship instead of the enemies. And while you can remove the beam laser, this does not fix the bugged plasma guns.... at 0% charge auto targeting thinks you are not actually able to shoot I guess?

So there seems to be a lot of brokenness in this ;) Good thing I didn't actually buy this..  for once my tingly senses warned me of impeding overhyped mediocrity.

I never ran into that actually.  This was a "bug" purely with the game not showing me the target display (I could still fire just fine, and the weapons did what they were supposed to.... I just couldn't HIT anything).  And discovered later that there actually was no glitch; all I needed to do was fire off the ship's scan wave to get the targeting things to appear.  It would have been nice if the game had TOLD me this, but.... whatever.   From now on if something acts wonky I'm not going to assume it's a bug, but assume it's something I'm missing.   ....except what I'm calling the "insta-launch", which is the only REAL bug I've encountered.  Again this is the PS4 version, it's not the bizarre imploded mess that the PC version has started as.  The PS4 version isn't buggy/broken.  I'm glad I *didn't* wait for the PC version.  My impatience is justified.

As for the game as a whole, as far as I'm concerned this is bloody fantastic.  It's been YEARS since I've enjoyed a full-priced game this much. Or most indie games, to be honest. The whole thing is extremely reminiscent of EA's ancient "Starflight" game (which I had on the Genesis, way back when).  I remember being utterly enthralled by that as a kid (though I will say it had the absolute worst space combat I've ever seen), and NMS really plays VERY similar in an overall sense.  Without the part of me hating the space combat.   Pretty much everything about it is similar.  I haven't touched a single other game since this released.  Including Starward.  Which should say something, really.

I will say though, videos absolutely do not do this game justice.  Particularly with the really irritating way a lot of people are going through it.  SO many of them are doing the "ignore 90% of the game and just try to finish the all-important story without doing anything else".   Which is kinda like playing Minecraft, doing JUST the events to the Enderdragon (the game's win condition) and then whining that there's no content and nothing else to do.   Or doing the same in Terraria, or any of those games.


As always I'm blaming this on the current gaming landscape.  I know that if I gave the game to friends, they'd have the same "beeline to the center, whine about lack of stuff that they didn't bother to look for" approach. Provided they could even figure it out.  Incidentally, they don't understand games like Minecraft/Terraria/all of those, either.  The sorts of gamers that have been trained way too hard by the AAA games in recent years.  If it's not full of stupid cutscenes and setpieces, they don't want it.  And if it's not linear in some way, they get confused. Same lack of interest if the game in question doesn't have some long-winded story (and that's where *I* don't see the appeal, I haaaaaaate story-focused games; far as I'm concerned, the best story in gaming is "Blast off and strike the evil Bydo Empire!", which is literally the entire story of R-Type... just that one sentence.  Anything longer and I stop caring and/or paying attention).   Bah.   That's a whole other rant and/or topic that I'll not go into for the sake of everyone's sanity.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 14, 2016, 05:20:36 AM
yea I've heard about the issue that no mans sky appears to have on pc including apparently according to tbs latest video that the k/m controls are terrible.
still ill give it a go after all that's why the refund systems in place not holding much hope for it being playable though.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 14, 2016, 07:09:46 AM
Better to just wait for them to patch it, really.

Apparently it's *really* messed up right now.  Or so I'm told.  Havent actually seen it.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 14, 2016, 09:28:24 AM


I will say though, videos absolutely do not do this game justice.  Particularly with the really irritating way a lot of people are going through it.  SO many of them are doing the "ignore 90% of the game and just try to finish the all-important story without doing anything else".   Which is kinda like playing Minecraft, doing JUST the events to the Enderdragon (the game's win condition) and then whining that there's no content and nothing else to do.   Or doing the same in Terraria, or any of those games.


I would totally disagree with you actually ;) Minecraft is a gem because you CAN build what you want, you can install mods, and start building things you never knew you wanted. You can spend 5000 hours to build the most intricate castle ever designed with a behind the scenes in-game logic system running moving walls and randomly moving enemy spawners or just a nice looking tree house. Same although much more dumbed down for Starbound and Terraria. All these are games where you can substantially shape the worlds. Though these 2 are totally inferior to Minecraft. There is also FortressCraft Evolved, which I didn't play since it's "Evolved" moniker so yeah, but I would think that ranks 2nd to Minecraft.

NMS is nothing of that. It is not a builder game, it is not a sim. It is a... very fancy... walking simulator. The more you abstract the gameplay concepts the more you will see it. There is no element in NMS that is interconnected, races just exist, animals just spawn/unspawn, so do resources and sentinels, bases on planets, planets and entire systems. If you aren't there and don't intend to go back then they might as well not even exist.. because to the game, they are just background images.

So imo NMS is a pretty walking simulator. But it isn't a good game. Not even a finished game, actually. If it had been designed for the "exploration" crowd then it would not have so little to actually +see+ ;p
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 14, 2016, 11:00:57 AM

I would totally disagree with you actually ;) Minecraft is a gem because you CAN build what you want, you can install mods, and start building things you never knew you wanted. You can spend 5000 hours to build the most intricate castle ever designed with a behind the scenes in-game logic system running moving walls and randomly moving enemy spawners or just a nice looking tree house. Same although much more dumbed down for Starbound and Terraria. All these are games where you can substantially shape the worlds. Though these 2 are totally inferior to Minecraft. There is also FortressCraft Evolved, which I didn't play since it's "Evolved" moniker so yeah, but I would think that ranks 2nd to Minecraft


Ah, but NMS is not the same genre as Minecraft.  I use Minecraft (and the other two) as examples simply for that analogy.  NMS, as I keep telling people, is a survival-genre game.  Minecraft... you can call it the same thing, but to me it's more like the entire genre is sliced in half.  You have games like Minecraft on one side, with the survival elements and the building, and then on the other side, those games have those elements WITHOUT the building.   You're not meant, in those game, to "shape" anything at all.   Your only goal is not to get overwhelmed and destroyed (or whatever) by the world you're in.   A good example, actually, is Dwarf Fortress's adventure mode.  Same idea, all these infinite places to explore, things to do.... but you cant SHAPE a thing.   Nothing at all.   The only thing you can "build" is a rather crappy fire that never actually accomplishes anything aside from throwing smoke around that every other character can see right through.  The whole "don't screw up" element is still there, and 95% of your time in that mode will be spent wandering, only small amounts of it involve actual action.   That type of game tends to be like that.

This is all separate from anything resembling narrative, though.


Quote

NMS is nothing of that. It is not a builder game, it is not a sim. It is a... very fancy... walking simulator. The more you abstract the gameplay concepts the more you will see it. There is no element in NMS that is interconnected, races just exist, animals just spawn/unspawn, so do resources and sentinels, bases on planets, planets and entire systems. If you aren't there and don't intend to go back then they might as well not even exist.. because to the game, they are just background images.

So imo NMS is a pretty walking simulator. But it isn't a good game. Not even a finished game, actually. If it had been designed for the "exploration" crowd then it would not have so little to actually +see+ ;p

This bit doesn't make sense to me, considering the earlier Minecraft bit.   Minecraft.... has less "interconnection" than any other game on this list (this being part of why I like it), and WAY less than NMS.  No story, no characters, nothing cemented.  Even the game's closest things to other "characters", the Villagers, are utterly blank slates.  You could replace them with jpeg images of a cactus and nothing would actually change.  Everything you say about NMS in that part there can (and does) apply to Minecraft as well in the exact same way.  Except more.   NMS characters at least speak, and there are some named ones with importance to the lore.  Minecraft.... has none of that.  Just "Steve", and even that's just the fan-given name to the main character, who is just as replacable as the aforementioned walking cacti. ALL of these characters and mobs in Minecraft have literally no function or purpose whatsoever unless A: you walk up to them and interact with them, usually by smashing them with something, or B: they are a monster and attack you.    There are three, and ONLY three, exceptions to this:  1, Wolves will attack certain animals   2, zombies will attack villagers  3, Guardians will attack squids.   Other than this, the world has no autonomous interactions.   You either do something with a mob or object, or it may as well not be there, really.

The only actual "core" element to Minecraft is the Enderdragon, because it's connected to the "ending".   But even that is just a random thing, a dragon, smashed into an arbitrary "boss" slot that needed filling, just.... because Notch wanted a boss in the game.  The other 2 bosses, the Wither and the Elder Guardians, are equally random, having zero connection to anything, and the same non-existent lore as absolutely every other thing.   I mean, a three-headed, charred, flying skeleton, and some spiky eyeballs with deathrays... much as I like Minecraft, even I thought these might be a bit TOO random (particularly the Wither more than anything else).  The Wither in particular may as well not exist, as nobody ever bothers dealing with it.  That though is a whole other rant from me, about THAT thing and it's stupid Beacon.


If there's something else you mean here, I kinda suspect it's one of those meanings I'm not actually capable of understanding.   For example I haven't the foggiest clue what "abstract the gameplay" means.  That one just bounces off me, really.   May as well be quantum physics.



I still don't get the "walking simulator" bit either, which I've heard from a few others as well (all who, coincidentally, haven't played it themselves).   I've been playing this game in the *exact* same way I play Minecraft; moving from one task to the next either A: as goals present themselves to me, which then often lead to other choices/goals, or B: because I randomly feel like it, so long as "it" is something that will accomplish a thing for me.   As with Minecraft I'm not very patient and I don't like doing the same thing for long periods of time.  In Minecraft, I'll start out mining, for instance.... and then 5 minutes into that digging will decide "that's enough coal", even if it's not, and go randomly towards some shiny thing that I may or may not have spotted during that process.   Which then leads to other things, that lead to more things, and none of these take up much time individually, yet at the same time I never go after anything unless I think it'll serve some function for me.   NMS is like that; if it were just endless walking with nothing to DO, I wouldn't be playing it, since I cant focus in that way.  If I'm on a particular planet, I'm not there just to walk around; don't get me wrong, the scenery is bloody fascinating.  But I always have some THING I want, some goal in mind.  None of which are decided by the narrative (whatever there is of it, I haven't been following it very well), but all of which are decided based on whatever I think is a good idea at the time.  Maybe I'm after a particular tech for dealing with pirates (which get more and more frequent), or maybe I'm after certain suit upgrades, or a new ship.  I have specific sequences of tasks & events that I'll do to lead me to any one of these, all of which can branch out into other possibilities that I may or may not do, if they seem like they'll get me some useful thing.  In other words, movement with actual purpose/function.  I'm not too fond of the idea of going places without a reason, never have been.  The "reason" being practical things, mind you.  If the reason is "story" I don't bother.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 14, 2016, 12:25:16 PM
Ah I see, sorry for using sloppy language ^^

I mean that quite literally, to abstract the gameplay means to reduce it to its most basic actions and motivations for those actions.

The reason for my impression as a walking simulator is really quite simple. Take Minecraft I find the fact that I can shape the world has a huge impact on my enjoyment of these games. To explain, when in Minecraft I build a tunnel through a mountain, and I come back 30 (real) days later it will still be there in that save, and it will still be a tunnel I made. This has imo a nice motivation behind it, even if the "end" of minecraft might exist, the mere act of "getting" to where the good ressources are requires you to at least have some construction going, and things expand from there. Minecraft is the perfect game for 3d artists.. nothing ever stays a simple wooden hut ;P

Now back to NMS, the reason I see it as a walking simulator (admittedly, from videos) is that to me there seems nothing there aside from looking and occasionally shooting at things. The world has no connection with you (the player) unlike in Minecraft, when I dig into an water cave and flood half my "base", that is the very definition of "fun" aka DF style fun. When I accidentally dig upwards and lava floods in, the solution to that problem might create unique creations and ideas.  And when I die, then I drop my entire inventory.. that is a pretty big danger to face late game and requires you to plan ahead, set spawn point, set equipment aside, and have resources stored nicely. My point is, minecraft is the total exploration/construction sandbox focused game. it perfects the abstracted gameplay, the basic action (dawdling around) with motivation (surviving, growing base, building better stuff). For a survival game, there also needs to be a real threat of death. In NMS, there is no (substantial) penalty to dying so I don't perceive it as a survival game.

And also, I find that there are no real threats in NMS, although to be fair, that may just have been the "mid game" streamer I was watching. There were "elite combat" robots or some such, which did a ton of damage after streamer grabbed a few of those ! marked ressources, then he found a cave with 30 of them (the resources) and.. the bots didn't spawn there and eventually he just dug a hole out of the cave with grenades and walked away with 20 30k worth things. Like.. yeah... survival? Nah.

I dunno, maybe it is really only the perception one gets from streams... but to me, NMS looks like an incredibly.. repetitive, grindy... walking simulator.. with really bad art work at that. The animals you discover (Swimming/Flying/walking) all look incredibly alike after just a few planets, and the planets, a few special plants aside, all look "samey" and worst of all, when I see NMS being played, and I see those creatures and ships.. I think of Spore. The ships and aliens especially look horrendous imo. It has this "cartoony" muddy feel to it and this is an art style I absolutely hate.. I want crisp textures, reflections, and diversity.

In all my watching streams in NMS, I never seen a truly dangerous alien species... no hive mind, no berserkers. From a pure Sci-fi fan perspective, I think this world in NMS is about as bland as you could design a scifi setting if you tried really hard to make the "most blandest scifi ever"

I mean, this atlas AI thing, is a red wobbly sphere thing... yay? Where is the inspiration? Where the creativity? I come at this looking as someone who read Ender's Game and the following.... I .. just think.. this vision, this art this style in NMS, makes it look so.. immature.. so childish.. oh well ;p It's hard to put that into words, but I really can not imagine me having any fun in that game. It would be interesting to explore the game mechanics I guess, but I'd be dead bored after planet 3, unless there is a "super hardcore" difficulty setting the streamers all didn't check ;p

Basically, make this game set in Warhammer universe, and you'd have a winner. May not be procedural (though the planets could be) but at least you'd have some conflict.

Ps.: And finally, I also want to say that to me, NMS sits next to X games from Egosoft, in those you also never had a threat that could change the global situation in the galaxy. It made playing the game incredibly bland after you achieved a super mega factory.. or 36.. *cough* anyway, I just think if it were really a survival game, then it would need to be like AI War, the *threat* of total doom must linger over you, or it ain't survival, it's just a (from looking at it on stream) very grindy mostly random gallery you explore. The streamer I watched explored an entire planet and was left totally disappointed, most of the species were just slight variations. You could discern a few phenotypes.. but all in all, visually the game has not enough diversity where it matters, with light and animals, with ships and aliens. With environments...

Mhhh, anyway ;P
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 14, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
To me, NMS seems like an amalgamation of Elite: Dangerous, Terraria and EVE Online with all the work, grind and annoyances and none of the fun.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 14, 2016, 08:11:23 PM
Ah I see, sorry for using sloppy language ^^

I mean that quite literally, to abstract the gameplay means to reduce it to its most basic actions and motivations for those actions.

The reason for my impression as a walking simulator is really quite simple. Take Minecraft I find the fact that I can shape the world has a huge impact on my enjoyment of these games. To explain, when in Minecraft I build a tunnel through a mountain, and I come back 30 (real) days later it will still be there in that save, and it will still be a tunnel I made. This has imo a nice motivation behind it, even if the "end" of minecraft might exist, the mere act of "getting" to where the good ressources are requires you to at least have some construction going, and things expand from there. Minecraft is the perfect game for 3d artists.. nothing ever stays a simple wooden hut ;P

Now back to NMS, the reason I see it as a walking simulator (admittedly, from videos) is that to me there seems nothing there aside from looking and occasionally shooting at things. The world has no connection with you (the player) unlike in Minecraft, when I dig into an water cave and flood half my "base", that is the very definition of "fun" aka DF style fun. When I accidentally dig upwards and lava floods in, the solution to that problem might create unique creations and ideas.  And when I die, then I drop my entire inventory.. that is a pretty big danger to face late game and requires you to plan ahead, set spawn point, set equipment aside, and have resources stored nicely. My point is, minecraft is the total exploration/construction sandbox focused game. it perfects the abstracted gameplay, the basic action (dawdling around) with motivation (surviving, growing base, building better stuff). For a survival game, there also needs to be a real threat of death. In NMS, there is no (substantial) penalty to dying so I don't perceive it as a survival game.

And also, I find that there are no real threats in NMS, although to be fair, that may just have been the "mid game" streamer I was watching. There were "elite combat" robots or some such, which did a ton of damage after streamer grabbed a few of those ! marked ressources, then he found a cave with 30 of them (the resources) and.. the bots didn't spawn there and eventually he just dug a hole out of the cave with grenades and walked away with 20 30k worth things. Like.. yeah... survival? Nah.

I dunno, maybe it is really only the perception one gets from streams... but to me, NMS looks like an incredibly.. repetitive, grindy... walking simulator.. with really bad art work at that. The animals you discover (Swimming/Flying/walking) all look incredibly alike after just a few planets, and the planets, a few special plants aside, all look "samey" and worst of all, when I see NMS being played, and I see those creatures and ships.. I think of Spore. The ships and aliens especially look horrendous imo. It has this "cartoony" muddy feel to it and this is an art style I absolutely hate.. I want crisp textures, reflections, and diversity.

In all my watching streams in NMS, I never seen a truly dangerous alien species... no hive mind, no berserkers. From a pure Sci-fi fan perspective, I think this world in NMS is about as bland as you could design a scifi setting if you tried really hard to make the "most blandest scifi ever"

I mean, this atlas AI thing, is a red wobbly sphere thing... yay? Where is the inspiration? Where the creativity? I come at this looking as someone who read Ender's Game and the following.... I .. just think.. this vision, this art this style in NMS, makes it look so.. immature.. so childish.. oh well ;p It's hard to put that into words, but I really can not imagine me having any fun in that game. It would be interesting to explore the game mechanics I guess, but I'd be dead bored after planet 3, unless there is a "super hardcore" difficulty setting the streamers all didn't check ;p

Basically, make this game set in Warhammer universe, and you'd have a winner. May not be procedural (though the planets could be) but at least you'd have some conflict.

Ps.: And finally, I also want to say that to me, NMS sits next to X games from Egosoft, in those you also never had a threat that could change the global situation in the galaxy. It made playing the game incredibly bland after you achieved a super mega factory.. or 36.. *cough* anyway, I just think if it were really a survival game, then it would need to be like AI War, the *threat* of total doom must linger over you, or it ain't survival, it's just a (from looking at it on stream) very grindy mostly random gallery you explore. The streamer I watched explored an entire planet and was left totally disappointed, most of the species were just slight variations. You could discern a few phenotypes.. but all in all, visually the game has not enough diversity where it matters, with light and animals, with ships and aliens. With environments...

Mhhh, anyway ;P

.....actually, NMS's death penalty is exactly the same as that of Minecraft, so.... still not entirely making sense to me, to be honest, particularly the complaints about the game's difficulty or lack thereof.   In Minecraft when you die, you drop your stuff.  In NMS when you die, you drop your stuff.   Unless you die in space, which is.... a lot worse.   Where'd you get this idea that nothing happens?   And yeah, you can say things like "there's not anything truly dangerous" in the game, but that ends up being more about the player, not about the game, the same as it is in Minecraft.  If I'm playing Minecraft myself, there's nothing dangerous in the game.  Nothing.  It doesn't matter what it is, it poses no threat to me, and I don't exactly need diamond (or even iron) level equipment for 95% of it.  Monsters, the game's bosses, lava, threat of falling.... nah.   Even on Hard, Minecraft is too easy.  The game just isn't very hard, at all, as this is the case for most people I know; it doesn't exactly take some amazing level of skill, it's not like a bullet-hell game. It's not that it doesn't have things that can damage the player, it's that none of them are very dangerous, even in hordes.   NMS is exactly the same way, with a very similar level of low difficulty (I would, very honestly, say that the difficulty level is almost exactly the same).   It has plenty of things that can kill you.  But like Minecraft, its just not going to throw them at you very hard since that's not the point, really.   The only game I can think of that DOES fling stuff at you pretty hard is Terraria, played on Expert.   Starbound doesn't do it either, nor does any other that I've played.  They all have this same type of non-threatening threats, I guess you could say.   In Minecraft, I haven't encountered any real threat, danger, or DF-style "fun" probably since....  before Alpha. In other words, it's been years. Unless I'm using mods, which absolutely don't count (if you need mods in order for a particular game function to work, that function is DEFINITELY broken).   And if I'm using mods, chances are I'm going *really* far with them (teleporting Ender creepers that fling fireballs that cause lightning and have the ability to summon spider webs all over the place and have 7x the HP and are always charged, that sort of thing, heh) which also kinda says what I think about the game's actual "difficulty".  But as I said above, that's more about the player, not about the game.  I know someone that plays Minecraft and just gets splattered by things over and over, despite it being super easy.   This entertains me to no end.  I admit getting enjoyment out of pointing out some easy way he could have avoided or prevented each death.  He doesn't enjoy it as much.

That being said, I absolutely understand the bit about lacking interest when you aren't able to shape the world and such.   In some games, that bugs me, in others, it doesn't, which I suppose is kinda odd.  Sorta bugs me in DF Adventure Mode, to be honest, though that might be because the main game mode is STUFFED with that idea. 


As for the game's universe or whatever being bland.... that's all honestly above my head.  I'll notice the visuals in a game like this, but anything else, such as running themes behind it all or the story stuff or whatever.... yeah, that's a conversation for someone else to have, heh.   My entire understanding of that aspect of this game is "there's a red ball somewhere", which is even smaller than my understanding of R-Type's storyline.   So I don't actually have any thoughts on that part, and likely never will, as that's likely to still remain my level of understanding even if I hit the end of the game.

As for the artstyle, that's always subjective of course.  I can see why some wont like it.   For me, I like it well enough, particularly since it's not realistic (I hate realism, to be totally honest, and would rather have Minecraft's bizarre blocky abstraction, or things like that) and since there's some damn color.  I cant even overstate how important it is that games have some freaking color even if the color has to be splattered in places that make no sense.  But that's another rant, for another day.... 

Quote
To me, NMS seems like an amalgamation of Elite: Dangerous, Terraria and EVE Online with all the work, grind and annoyances and none of the fun.

That's pretty much how I've always thought of.... Well, EVE Online, to be honest.  Not the other two.

Every now and then someone I know will point out that they love that game.

Every single time I ask them to explain why.

Every single time I go away from it understanding less than before about the appeal, and also with an urge to hit them with a chair.  That game seems like Disgaea's grinding, except literally made into an entire game.  Hell, people pull up videos on other screens to watch while they "play" it, like, during the travel sequences.   I just....  it.... ugh.   I don't understand that one.  Never will.  That the game is even still around utterly baffles me.  Usually with a lot of games I can say "Yeah, I don't like this one, but I guess I can see why others do".  That one's the exception.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 15, 2016, 05:33:45 AM
Yeah hehe, EVE is one of these things I don't get either... thing is though, everyone I see calls NMS a survival game. And it really isn't one. It has no challenge, no fail state, if you die you only lose resources, not upgrades/items or even ships. But on the other hand it has this dull refill grind that is about as much fun as.. well, no, it doesn't seem fun ;p

Although to be fair, I knew I (probably) wouldn't enjoy this game so I didn't put any money on the table... from the earliest trailers I already realized they are really showing everything that the game *IS* .. I am just surprised that the game in streams I watched, actually seems to be far more "mining and waiting" and far less exploration and combat.

And the final nail is imo always procedural generation. Haven't seen a single game where that added ANYTHING to my enjoyment, more than that, often proc gen adds floating geometry, meshes and glitchy physics. If the gameplay is solid, basic random map gen.. sure, why not. But procedural surfaces that have zero impact on gameplay or anything? What is the point? I take KSP style hand crafted badly textured wastelands over procedural generated wastelands any day. (they run much better ,p) as the engine in NMS can't seem to handle foliage whatsoever which I guess is why most planets look like nuclear wastelands. On stream I watched FPS tanked to the 20's on a densely populated world. 20.. for graphics that look worse than Far Cry.. like, the original one.

And this has technical reasons I guess.... so this where I end up thinking this is a indy proof of concept. What it definitely is not is a AAA game. It costs 67$ on steam for me. They must be certifiably insane...
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 15, 2016, 08:10:59 AM
Although to be fair, I knew I (probably) wouldn't enjoy this game so I didn't put any money on the table... from the earliest trailers I already realized they are really showing everything that the game *IS* .. I am just surprised that the game in streams I watched, actually seems to be far more "mining and waiting" and far less exploration and combat.

I'm beginning to wonder just who it is you're watching play this, if that's the case.  Something tells me they don't entirely know what they're doing.

I mine something in this, and it takes me like 2 seconds, if that.  The hardest things to mine in the game (as objects go) are rock-ish things that give a lot of iron, they take 5 billion years to bring down with the mining laser.  ....so I throw a grenade at them.  BAMF, instant iron, no loss of it either.  It's one of those things where I see people NOT doing this and I'm like "Why... why cant you see the obvious solution here?"    Granted, to be fair, this is what I expect from streamers in most cases (and this is why I stopped watching Twitch like, a year ago, I eventually just couldn't handle any more stupid, I'd reached my breaking point), and many Youtubers, but still, it's painful to watch when I see someone doing stuff like that (or should I say, NOT doing stuff) in any particular game.   I mean, seriously, mining stuff in this game takes me less than half the time it does to do basic amounts of mining in Minecraft; and that's for the "resource lumps", not small objects, which are pretty much instant as long as you're not trying to mine them by screaming at them.

The FPS bit, I'm just going to take a wild guess and say that's the PC version.  I have no comments on that; I'm playing the PS4 version, which works fine.  I'm rather glad I didn't wait for the PC version.  At least the blasted PS4 has a function now other than being a dust collection machine.  Sometimes I wonder why I bought the idiotic thing.

As for procedural generation, THAT one I heavily disagree with.   I'll be honest, I've almost completely stopped playing "hand crafted" games at this point (other than shmups).   I've just.... lost interest entirely.   The last one I bought was Doom, and the last one before that was.... er.... something.  Goat Simulator?  It might actually be Goat Simulator.  Which quite frankly I enjoy way more than most AAA games, but that's another rant.  Hell, I enjoy old Atari 2600 games or those LCD things a lot more than most AAA modern games (Doom and Overwatch being the only exceptions).  I wish I was joking.


But yeah, I mean heck, we're at the Arcen forums here, and basically ALL of their games use procedural generation, with the exception of Shattered Haven. 


Quote
What it definitely is not is a AAA game

And boy am I thankful for that.   It means I don't have to perform an exorcism.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 15, 2016, 08:57:04 AM
To be honest, throwing a grenade at a rock to get iron is not a solution I would get either. More so if the game does not tell you that this would work.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 15, 2016, 09:57:24 AM
To be honest, throwing a grenade at a rock to get iron is not a solution I would get either. More so if the game does not tell you that this would work.

These games usually don't tell you these things.   .....Or it might be in the description of the grenade thing actually, I'm not entirely sure.

But really, the logic seems obvious to me.  One thing isn't doing the job fast enough?  HIT IT HARDER.  Or if you're in Minecraft, pump it full of magic, that works too.  Cant go wrong with enchanted diamond.

The game DOES make it fairly obvious, though, that the grenades are capable of terrain deformation and are stronger than the mining laser (which cant destroy normal rock). 

Beyond that though, it does sort of bug me that people cant even experiment enough to figure this one out, logic or no logic.  All you have to do is hit one button without even changing your aim....  I dunno.  I spot stuff like this in games quickly and it tends to irritate me that others often don't.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Logorouge on August 15, 2016, 06:11:16 PM
Beyond that though, it does sort of bug me that people cant even experiment enough to figure this one out, logic or no logic.  All you have to do is hit one button without even changing your aim....  I dunno.  I spot stuff like this in games quickly and it tends to irritate me that others often don't.
Are grenades rare and/or precious? Or maybe it's just the good old "save it for later" syndrome in action.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 15, 2016, 06:49:02 PM
My guess would be simply, it's a weapon (if it's really called grenade) so people don't test it on terrain. Or ore. Or whatever you can farm in this game.
Plus what logorogue said, if its a rare item, people pretty much won't waste it on ore.

Also in my opinion this shouldn't be the better option. The common knowledge is, grenades are weapons and should function that way. if they can mine ore, good, but they should NEVER be better than the intended main tool for that purpose. In NMS seemingly the mining laser. This thing is only there for mining, if there is something better for it, why use it at all? What rigth has it to exist if there is a better option that can be also uttilized as weapon? That's a bad game design. Grenades can be usable on rocks but shouldn't simply be the better option because people will then abuse it like you do it. That's a bad game design and NOT the fault of the customers not noticing this flaw (using grenades for minign an dspeeding up the process).
There can be of course an explosive for mining, like TNT in Minecraft, but it should be rare to aquire, like TNT in Minecraft.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 15, 2016, 07:59:19 PM
My guess would be simply, it's a weapon (if it's really called grenade) so people don't test it on terrain. Or ore. Or whatever you can farm in this game.
Plus what logorogue said, if its a rare item, people pretty much won't waste it on ore.

Also in my opinion this shouldn't be the better option. The common knowledge is, grenades are weapons and should function that way. if they can mine ore, good, but they should NEVER be better than the intended main tool for that purpose. In NMS seemingly the mining laser. This thing is only there for mining, if there is something better for it, why use it at all? What rigth has it to exist if there is a better option that can be also uttilized as weapon? That's a bad game design. Grenades can be usable on rocks but shouldn't simply be the better option because people will then abuse it like you do it. That's a bad game design and NOT the fault of the customers not noticing this flaw (using grenades for minign an dspeeding up the process).
There can be of course an explosive for mining, like TNT in Minecraft, but it should be rare to aquire, like TNT in Minecraft.

They're just the alternate fire of the mining gun, actually (can be fired either in beam or boltcaster mode).   They are like any other tech thing in the game; keep 'em fed, and you need not run out.  They take isotopes to power (like many things) or certain items can be used.

It turns out that the game DOES actually tell you "yes, these blow up terrain and objects quickly" and all of that.  There are techs meant to enhance the abilities of the thing to do exactly that, but it starts out doing a pretty good job of it).

Also, they don't work like normal grenades; I just call them that.  They're silver spheres that simply explode on impact with anything.  They're not something you throw with careful timing, and the gun holds a "clip" of 6 of them that then reloads after that.

The way it's balanced though, using JUST those for digging is idiotic; you'll drain your gun too fast.  Way too fast.  The drain from those is pretty extreme compared to the laser.  You cant actually abuse them in that way unless you want to basically be feeding the thing all of the resources you're using them to dig up.  These are meant to be used on very hard objects (of which there are only a few types) and other than that, use the mining laser on everything else.   They're not good on resource lumps and pointless on crystals or plants (you'll just drain the hell out of your gun if you do that, dumb idea).   In other words, like any other game with digging involved: use the right tool for the right job.   Which I suppose is part of why this seemed so obvious to me.   I use them specifically on objects that count as iron deposits (big rocks) or the various rare bizarre things that hold the ultra-rare materials like Radnox and such.  Carbon sources, crystals, and most metals are dug up with the laser.   Zinc/platinum/thamium must be collected and cannot be dug up by anything.

Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 16, 2016, 11:41:21 AM
Just got linked this

https://twitter.com/britbongreturns/status/765190830894317568
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2016, 03:43:40 PM
Just got linked this

https://twitter.com/britbongreturns/status/765190830894317568
That was pretty flipping spot on.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2016, 03:45:40 PM
Quote
To me, NMS seems like an amalgamation of Elite: Dangerous, Terraria and EVE Online with all the work, grind and annoyances and none of the fun.

That's pretty much how I've always thought of.... Well, EVE Online, to be honest.  Not the other two.

Every now and then someone I know will point out that they love that game.

Every single time I ask them to explain why.

Every single time I go away from it understanding less than before about the appeal, and also with an urge to hit them with a chair.  That game seems like Disgaea's grinding, except literally made into an entire game.  Hell, people pull up videos on other screens to watch while they "play" it, like, during the travel sequences.   I just....  it.... ugh.   I don't understand that one.  Never will.  That the game is even still around utterly baffles me.  Usually with a lot of games I can say "Yeah, I don't like this one, but I guess I can see why others do".  That one's the exception.
EVE is 95% politics and about 5% "make your own empire". That's what's fun about EVE to me. PvP is rather exhilarating too when it's small scale. The huge fleet battles are impressive, but pretty bland to be a part of. It's the politics leading up to the battles that is awesome. Right now though I'm just trading (which is PvP in and of itself) and building ships. Because the crafting system in EVE is actually fun compared to most.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Logorouge on August 16, 2016, 03:57:56 PM
Just got linked this

https://twitter.com/britbongreturns/status/765190830894317568

I'm hoping people weren't seriously expecting the game to be 200 hours of the E3 trailer. Still, that video made me laugh pretty hard.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 16, 2016, 04:27:02 PM
I see the problems with creatures. They appearantly made only one huge pool of body parts for any living organism, resulting in stuff like that abomination. Starbound on the other hand (which is pretty much this in 2D) has multiple pools to draw from, and similiar looking ones are in the same pool, so that randomly generated creatures don't look like a mess. I'm pretty sure you can find ridiculous looking creatures there too but the chance is smaller because they have multiple pools of limbs for generation.
Also, the way the different body parts work together seems pretty lazy. I mean, look at it, the front limbs just sling around because the developers didn't bother to animate them, they are just ragdolls.
I saw also pictures of horrible cow mutants with butterfly wings attached to them that try to carry the huge creatures across the plains. Looks pretty horrifying, like something from a low budget horror movie. This also has the same case of lazy ragdoll limbs. Just because they don't use them for movement does not mean that you can skip the entire animation process. What happens when these animals land? do tehy simply fall on the ground and roll around because their legs are useless?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 16, 2016, 07:07:19 PM
Just got linked this

https://twitter.com/britbongreturns/status/765190830894317568

I'm hoping people weren't seriously expecting the game to be 200 hours of the E3 trailer. Still, that video made me laugh pretty hard.

Oh god, I don't think anyone ever expects 200 hours of the one video, but we do expect a reasonable comparison.

Its the Aerial Ace Cool Cam all over again.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 16, 2016, 08:26:07 PM
Just got linked this

https://twitter.com/britbongreturns/status/765190830894317568
That was pretty flipping spot on.

Ah, that, though, is the player's problem, to be honest (that being said, there are plenty of areas similar to that in the trailer; I think people were expecting CONSTANT "dinosaurs in the grass" though, from a freaking PROCEDURAL game.... good grief).

Seriously, people should know better than to trust E3 videos, or trailers, or anything of that nature.  I don't even watch trailers.  This is why.   And this is something I keep repeating over the last couple days.  And every time I say "it's a good idea to IGNORE trailers" people look at me like I'm telling them that it's a good idea not to breathe or have a face.  That's how far these companies have managed to bring this sort of thing now.  Like people cant even comprehend buying or checking out games without these overblown advertisements that *never* are proper approximations of what it will be.   Remember Watch Dogs?  Yeah.

I've run into lush planets as I said, and I have run into things that actually look like dinosaurs (as opposed to.... whatever the heck that is).   But that trailer?  Just like with every other trailer ever, nobody should have believed that the game as a whole was going to be like that.  I guarantee you that bit in there was not random, that was set up by the devs.   Animals in the game don't typically appear in huge multiple blobs right on top of one another (which is what's happening in that trailer), as it kills the player's need to explore the planet to find those animals.   Among other issues I spot in there.

This kind of crap is a huge part of all of this, really.  I went into this game having not followed any hype, and I got exactly what I wanted out of it.  It's a good game by my standards, same as I've been saying.   Lots of OTHERS, though, run around bashing it without even playing it (and sometimes while only having watched confused people playing it for the first time on freaking Twitch, as friends of mine did... sigh), because they watched what the Internet Hype Train did.  And then they wonder what went wrong.  I'd facepalm here, but if I did it hard enough to do this justice, the shockwave would blow out a wall.

And this series of events will repeat itself, over... and over.... and over.... I can tell ya which game will be next, which is Star Citizen.   And that one is going to make THIS debacle look like nothing at all.   I'll be totally honest, I'm kinda looking forward to that, because I'm unpleasant that way.  I'll be bringing popcorn.  Lots of it. 



Quote
To me, NMS seems like an amalgamation of Elite: Dangerous, Terraria and EVE Online with all the work, grind and annoyances and none of the fun.

That's pretty much how I've always thought of.... Well, EVE Online, to be honest.  Not the other two.

Every now and then someone I know will point out that they love that game.

Every single time I ask them to explain why.

Every single time I go away from it understanding less than before about the appeal, and also with an urge to hit them with a chair.  That game seems like Disgaea's grinding, except literally made into an entire game.  Hell, people pull up videos on other screens to watch while they "play" it, like, during the travel sequences.   I just....  it.... ugh.   I don't understand that one.  Never will.  That the game is even still around utterly baffles me.  Usually with a lot of games I can say "Yeah, I don't like this one, but I guess I can see why others do".  That one's the exception.
EVE is 95% politics and about 5% "make your own empire". That's what's fun about EVE to me. PvP is rather exhilarating too when it's small scale. The huge fleet battles are impressive, but pretty bland to be a part of. It's the politics leading up to the battles that is awesome. Right now though I'm just trading (which is PvP in and of itself) and building ships. Because the crafting system in EVE is actually fun compared to most.


...And that's what I mean with this game, to be honest.  All that did was leave me with MORE questions (alot more) about "And this is fun.... how, exactly?".   Hell, "Politics" is just something generated by the players.   So... the game is fun, 95% because of something the game itself does not even generate?  What?  I mean, seriously, politics, however you use that word, has nothing to do with actual gameplay.  Nothing.  It's all communication between players.  It could be done in a billion different settings, like on a damn forum.   Considering how little fun intra-forum politics is (not fun at all, fortunately we don't have that sort of thing here), that just makes this that much more confusing.

Like I said, I'll never understand that game, any more than I understand actual politics (which is to say, not at all; always looks like a bunch of abnormally boring old guys arguing with each other without actually doing anything).  I'm still going with "Disgaea, but they made the grinding into spaceships and it takes much longer".



Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 17, 2016, 10:33:58 AM
Let's just be honest about this game. Misery, I think you are giving this game more justice than it deserves. On the other side, I'm also positivly sure that this game becomes mor injustice from the press/critcs than it deserves. The game is, again, a victim of its hype. The fans inflated it so much, everyone excepted it to be THE survival game of the year. Now that it's out people have to face what it really is and probably always was. Some try to pretend it still very much is this what they wanted and write hate letters to everyone who says somethign different (you can google this up, the internet is full of this). The other side notices that it isn't what they wanted and go in the opposite direction and pretend the game is a piece of crap despite being maybe still an enjoyable game (I don't have it, so I won't side with anyone on this topic).

Now, my opinion on this is, it looks (from gameplay videos) actually quite good and enjoyable. However, not at the price tag of 60$. That's too much for the value of what you get at the moment. 30$ seems to me more correctly but I'm pretty sure you pay for the hype/fame of the game too. Plus, you can get Starbound for 15$ which is exactly this game. But in 2D. And without the need to directly drive your ship (which does not seem to be fun or useful in any way).

I think the extra space flying aspect is what kills the game for me. I have already every single X game (except Reborn which got tons of negative critics when it came out) and that sufficient enough. i don't need a survival or exploration agme that has this tied on just for the little extra aspect. If I want space exploration, I play X (which is and always will be the better experience) and if I want planet exploration I play Starbound or some other game I already have. I still have GRAV which is pretty much the same but came out a lot earlier. I also have Starforge but that thing is a horrible abomination. Both games are not great, Starforge isn't even in a good state, so I'm not putting my faith in a third one, especially if it costs 60$.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2016, 10:42:45 AM
That's the thing, Misery. EVE, the entire POINT of the entire game, is to be player driven. The developers simply give us a playground to be inside and do shit in. The rest is up to us. If you don't like that, it's fine. But there's apparently a lot of people that do, as EVE is the single one MMO that has a consistent growth from it's beginning and is still going. (Aside from the ragequitfest people had over Incarna)
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Toranth on August 17, 2016, 02:35:37 PM
I played EVE for one week, roughly.  Started on Sunday, played a few hours each day after that.  Mined in highsec, building up cash to buy some PLEX, earn a nestegg to get some expendable exploration stuff, you know - newb stuff.  Then came the weekend; killed three times in less than two days.  Why?  Because ganking newbie highsec miners is a hobby of half the people in the game, it seems.
So, yeah, EVE is all about the people - and what they do in a world with no rules and no real consequences.  Fascinating economic and social study material, fun to watch, but no way in heck will I ever touch it again.

Disappointed for No Man's Sky, though.  The E3 trailers were expected to be spiced up a bit, but not that much.  I hope it can grow and get some real content, because it sounds like a wonderful idea, if someone can do it right.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2016, 03:13:57 PM
killed three times in less than two days.  Why?  Because ganking newbie highsec miners is a hobby of half the people in the game, it seems.
And that, right there, is why I make my living in a backwater low sec system. Less douchebags around, less competition for raw materials, and if someone's in local, you KNOW they're out to get you.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 17, 2016, 07:38:44 PM
Let's just be honest about this game. Misery, I think you are giving this game more justice than it deserves. On the other side, I'm also positivly sure that this game becomes mor injustice from the press/critcs than it deserves. The game is, again, a victim of its hype. The fans inflated it so much, everyone excepted it to be THE survival game of the year. Now that it's out people have to face what it really is and probably always was. Some try to pretend it still very much is this what they wanted and write hate letters to everyone who says somethign different (you can google this up, the internet is full of this). The other side notices that it isn't what they wanted and go in the opposite direction and pretend the game is a piece of crap despite being maybe still an enjoyable game (I don't have it, so I won't side with anyone on this topic).

Now, my opinion on this is, it looks (from gameplay videos) actually quite good and enjoyable. However, not at the price tag of 60$. That's too much for the value of what you get at the moment. 30$ seems to me more correctly but I'm pretty sure you pay for the hype/fame of the game too. Plus, you can get Starbound for 15$ which is exactly this game. But in 2D. And without the need to directly drive your ship (which does not seem to be fun or useful in any way).

I think the extra space flying aspect is what kills the game for me. I have already every single X game (except Reborn which got tons of negative critics when it came out) and that sufficient enough. i don't need a survival or exploration agme that has this tied on just for the little extra aspect. If I want space exploration, I play X (which is and always will be the better experience) and if I want planet exploration I play Starbound or some other game I already have. I still have GRAV which is pretty much the same but came out a lot earlier. I also have Starforge but that thing is a horrible abomination. Both games are not great, Starforge isn't even in a good state, so I'm not putting my faith in a third one, especially if it costs 60$.


To be honest I think they put the space stuff into this basically "because the game takes place in space".   This may not be much of a reason, but I think I can understand it to a degree.   Though it seems more preference-based than anything.   I've seen complaints the other way around for, say, Starbound, along the lines of "why do I even have a ship if all it does is teleport me?  It doesn't do anything else".    Which I can understand, it does seem more than a little odd to have a ship that really is just a glorified flying transporter room from Star Trek. 

Though, at the same time, for NMS, the game's scale as the planets go absolutely would not work without the ships.  It just takes WAY too long to cross some distances.  You could look at a far off waypoint (usually one given to you by completing some string of events) and it might tell you that you could get there on foot.... if you sprint for 16 hours.   You need your ship for that.   

To be honest even Starbound occaisionally gives me this frustration.  In NMS, I can use the ship to cross distances quickly (while spotting other points of interest as I do so) so long as I'm willing to use the fuel from the launch boosters.  But in Starbound, well.....  a long walk is ALWAYS a long walk.  Unless you want to build yet another waypoint flag (I hate doing this, I end up with like 20000 damn waypoints) you get to make the same long damn walk every.... freaking.... time.... if there's a certain spot you need/want to go to on the planet, even if your ship is right above you.   Surface exploration is one thing, but having to cross half the planet on foot like 7 damn times in a row for a string of quests is.... irritating.     There honestly aren't that many things that annoy me with Starbound, but that's one of the few things that'll do it.


Anyway, the "just play Starbound instead" argument has been made more than a few times on the Net.  It's one I can understand, sure.   But I facepalm every time someone does it, not because they made the argument, but because in most places the same answer ALWAYS pops up:  "but it's 2D.  Why would I want to play some stupid 2D game?".   And I cant hit them with anything, why is this?   Ugh. 

Though one good argument is that the game IS a platformer at heart.  One way or another it does play very, very differently from NMS.



Now, as for Starforge.... I prefer to just pretend that game doesn't exist.   ....because it pretty much doesn't.   I know bad things happen during development and such, but that's the one game, and the ONLY one, I genuinely consider to be a scam.  Like, an actual scam.   I doubt I need to explain why.


That's the thing, Misery. EVE, the entire POINT of the entire game, is to be player driven. The developers simply give us a playground to be inside and do shit in. The rest is up to us. If you don't like that, it's fine. But there's apparently a lot of people that do, as EVE is the single one MMO that has a consistent growth from it's beginning and is still going. (Aside from the ragequitfest people had over Incarna)

Hm, I think this is just one of those I'll never get, really.   No matter how I look at it, I never see anything in there that could be described as "fun". I see lots that would qualify as anti-fun, but not the other way around.  But then, I have zero understanding of social.... anything.  Doesn't matter what it is, if it's "social", I don't do it.  This forum and the two others I go to are literally as social as I get.  So this is basically hieroglyphics as written backwards by drunken aliens from some other galaxy. 

Not that I play MMOs much these days ANYWAY.  Not after WoW corrupted the genre (most of it anyway).  Feh, that's a whole other rant.    I wonder if Everquest Next will ever actually come out.  And if it'll suck or not.  Not getting my hopes up too much.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2016, 08:10:13 PM
Found this on reddit frontpage

http://i.imgur.com/qveKeav.jpg
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 17, 2016, 09:16:28 PM
"Poorly designed" and "Shallow" are by definition what this game is ;)
Disappointed for No Man's Sky, though.  The E3 trailers were expected to be spiced up a bit, but not that much.  I hope it can grow and get some real content, because it sounds like a wonderful idea, if someone can do it right.

E3 trailers / gameplay trailers are nearly always smoke and mirrors, scripted and cut up the whaazoooo, never telling nor showing the game as it actually plays.

NMS is probably not even a bad game for what it is, a small exploration survival game. On the border of proof-of-concept. But due to hype, and media misinterpretation, everyone somehow assumed there was much more to it than there actually was. And Sony was really smart pricing it at 67$ -> 722,501 owners. I doubt any indy game not financed by a publisher ever made that much money for a big publisher. Sony played the hype train and that dev team to perfection. And that includes the lies about MP, which later in the interviews were just vague non-committal replies to clear questions. I am pretty sure at no point did the devs say "You can interact with other players directly" but the problem was many people assumed this was to be in the game. And no doubt it was, in the earliest small scale prototype NMS.....

Ps.: Also it bothers me that all the animals in NMS are naked, no fur, no feathers... some modesty for the animal abominations please
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 18, 2016, 12:26:05 AM
"Poorly designed" and "Shallow" are by definition what this game is ;)
Disappointed for No Man's Sky, though.  The E3 trailers were expected to be spiced up a bit, but not that much.  I hope it can grow and get some real content, because it sounds like a wonderful idea, if someone can do it right.

E3 trailers / gameplay trailers are nearly always smoke and mirrors, scripted and cut up the whaazoooo, never telling nor showing the game as it actually plays.

http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Cool-Cam
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 18, 2016, 04:01:21 AM
E3 trailers / gameplay trailers are nearly always smoke and mirrors, scripted and cut up the whaazoooo, never telling nor showing the game as it actually plays.


I just wanted to say I absolutely agree with this.  E3 trailers ALWAYS do this.  Frankly, I think it's often pretty detrimental to the game in question (whatever it is).  I never find these impressive, they usually just anger me.

One huge problem with stuff like this is that you have to advertise, and advertising focuses always on showing the GOOD parts of your product, while not showing the bad parts.  In the case of NMS, they showed off a lush planet.  The game has lush planets, I've been to a few at this point.  They're pretty fun.   BUT, the game also has vast desert wastelands.  Odd as it may sound, some of us actually like desert wastelands (even IRL, I like desert regions a lot.  I'm so tired of trees and grass, really.  Sand and rock is a very welcome change).   But that's not impressive to most players.   So they're not going to show what is still an important part of gameplay.  And they do this for every single aspect of the game.  Those big fleet battles?  Yes, those happen.  Been through 2 of them.   Note that when they show you that in the trailers, they ONLY show you the most "glorious" part, the initial drop into that solar system, where suddenly you've got lots of ships all in view at the same time, all firing lasers.  Needless to say, much of a battle like that (in any game) wont involve having the whole damn fleet in view all the time.  You can apply this to games like, say, Mount & Blade, too.  With that game, you've got big impressive, exciting battles between two small armies, with stuff flying everywhere, and the player diving into the melee, lancing foes from atop his horse as he goes.   But everyone that's played that game knows full well of those moments where you're off on the sidelines, chasing one stupid jerk, and throwing ineffective axes at him, or something like that.   It's a part of the gameplay, but they'd NEVER show that sort of thing in a trailer.  Never.   Because of this, you never get a true view of what the game is really like.   And that leads to crap like the current fiasco. 

Just.... ugh.  I know that advertising is important, very important, but sometimes the way companies go about doing it is just so bloody irritating.  Watching people buy into every tiny bit of it is even more irritating.

I'll stop there before this becomes a total rant.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 18, 2016, 06:01:47 AM
Hm, I think this is just one of those I'll never get, really.   No matter how I look at it, I never see anything in there that could be described as "fun". I see lots that would qualify as anti-fun, but not the other way around.  But then, I have zero understanding of social.... anything.  Doesn't matter what it is, if it's "social", I don't do it.  This forum and the two others I go to are literally as social as I get.  So this is basically hieroglyphics as written backwards by drunken aliens from some other galaxy. 

Not that I play MMOs much these days ANYWAY.  Not after WoW corrupted the genre (most of it anyway).  Feh, that's a whole other rant.    I wonder if Everquest Next will ever actually come out.  And if it'll suck or not.  Not getting my hopes up too much.
Which is fine. There is also a reason EVE Online is, and remains, the smallest MMO out there if you look at playerbase. Sure it may be growing, but it's tiny. It's a very very niche title that appeals to a very niche kind of people. If you're not one of them, so what? ^^
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 18, 2016, 07:35:40 AM
Hm, I think this is just one of those I'll never get, really.   No matter how I look at it, I never see anything in there that could be described as "fun". I see lots that would qualify as anti-fun, but not the other way around.  But then, I have zero understanding of social.... anything.  Doesn't matter what it is, if it's "social", I don't do it.  This forum and the two others I go to are literally as social as I get.  So this is basically hieroglyphics as written backwards by drunken aliens from some other galaxy. 

Not that I play MMOs much these days ANYWAY.  Not after WoW corrupted the genre (most of it anyway).  Feh, that's a whole other rant.    I wonder if Everquest Next will ever actually come out.  And if it'll suck or not.  Not getting my hopes up too much.
Which is fine. There is also a reason EVE Online is, and remains, the smallest MMO out there if you look at playerbase. Sure it may be growing, but it's tiny. It's a very very niche title that appeals to a very niche kind of people. If you're not one of them, so what? ^^

Wont stop me from complaining though, no sir.

If I'm not complaining, I'm probably asleep.  Or exceedingly caffeinated. 


I could definitely list a few for NMS here for that matter, regardless of how much I like it.  Just aint done that so much yet.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 18, 2016, 10:32:18 AM
Well, NMS for me is the ultimate sleeping pill. It literally has nothing  that appeals to me. There are concepts in there that could be great, but the absolutely awful implementation, shitty UI and bland and repetitive nature of the gameplay is just a massive nope to me. There is no way in hell I'll spend money on that. I could get medicine that'd put me to sleep better and cheaper than NMS.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 18, 2016, 11:11:00 AM
I just wanted to say I absolutely agree with this.  E3 trailers ALWAYS do this.  Frankly, I think it's often pretty detrimental to the game in question (whatever it is).  I never find these impressive, they usually just anger me.

Reminds me of when I tore into Sony's latest E3 presentation.  The person I was talking to was all like "wow, this is a good time to be a gamer, Sony's conference was the bomb!" And I replied with, "Huh? No it wasn't" and pointed out a few things.  Mind, I got a few things wrong because it was three days later and I mis-remembered a few things, but seriously compare this (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=4099) to this (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=4364).  You can tell, in that second shot of the applause, even the audience in the room has been unimpressed and confused by the previous trailer. 

Anyway, the reason I bring it up was because of the "we're going to play [some brown zombie shooter] for you live, right here on stage."

It looked. So. Fake.
https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=5894

Not to mention that the segment they decided to show off started with a short cutscene, with another cutscene a couple of minutes later (the intervening gameplay consisted of the player riding a motorcycle through some light woods, looting a crate, then a truck and then climbing on top of a barn chasing his brother, oh and another short cutscene).

If the "loot stuff" parts had been skipped you would have been hard pressed to tell me it wasn't 10 minutes of cutscene where almost nothing happened.  Then we get the zombie hoards and the player running away from them and being an absolute twat about tactics (4000 zombies, seriously are chasing him, he stops every 100 feet to turn around and shoot at them rather than booking it: I don't care if each bullet kills 5 zombies and every shot hits, you don't have the ammo capacity to deal with that many zombies).  Anyway, the main character ends up cornered at the roof of this building and the camera seamlessly transitions into a panorama cutscene again, pulling out up into the sky showing just how fucked the character is.  Oh, and the metal door getting blown open looked like ass (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=6140): that's not how metal works.

If that "gameplay" hadn't been faked, baked, and played back as a video with clever shots of someone using a controller* I would be shocked.  Absolutely shocked.

Oh, also, have a dinosaur humping a spaceship (https://twitter.com/Byzil/status/766104232168521728?s=09).

*In watching this again, the guy makes some serious control manipulation during the potions that I most strongly consider "cutscene" and virtually none when I feel the player would actually have the most agency.  e.g. in the "dude reaches into the truck to pull out the oil filter and attach it to his pistol" (because that totally just works) the guy on stage is making tons of controller input motions.  Ditto when he gets jumped by a zombie in the middle of trying to yell at the NPC and punches it off his face (you aren't going to seriously tell me that there's controls for that, are you?).  Jumping up piles of stuff, tooling around on a motocycle, wandering around the deserted camp? Virtually no movement in his fingers at all: not even when he goes around a sharp corner.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 21, 2016, 08:09:13 AM
I just wanted to say I absolutely agree with this.  E3 trailers ALWAYS do this.  Frankly, I think it's often pretty detrimental to the game in question (whatever it is).  I never find these impressive, they usually just anger me.

Reminds me of when I tore into Sony's latest E3 presentation.  The person I was talking to was all like "wow, this is a good time to be a gamer, Sony's conference was the bomb!" And I replied with, "Huh? No it wasn't" and pointed out a few things.  Mind, I got a few things wrong because it was three days later and I mis-remembered a few things, but seriously compare this (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=4099) to this (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=4364).  You can tell, in that second shot of the applause, even the audience in the room has been unimpressed and confused by the previous trailer. 

Anyway, the reason I bring it up was because of the "we're going to play [some brown zombie shooter] for you live, right here on stage."

It looked. So. Fake.
https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=5894

Not to mention that the segment they decided to show off started with a short cutscene, with another cutscene a couple of minutes later (the intervening gameplay consisted of the player riding a motorcycle through some light woods, looting a crate, then a truck and then climbing on top of a barn chasing his brother, oh and another short cutscene).

If the "loot stuff" parts had been skipped you would have been hard pressed to tell me it wasn't 10 minutes of cutscene where almost nothing happened.  Then we get the zombie hoards and the player running away from them and being an absolute twat about tactics (4000 zombies, seriously are chasing him, he stops every 100 feet to turn around and shoot at them rather than booking it: I don't care if each bullet kills 5 zombies and every shot hits, you don't have the ammo capacity to deal with that many zombies).  Anyway, the main character ends up cornered at the roof of this building and the camera seamlessly transitions into a panorama cutscene again, pulling out up into the sky showing just how fucked the character is.  Oh, and the metal door getting blown open looked like ass (https://youtu.be/GwofRzkROo4?t=6140): that's not how metal works.

If that "gameplay" hadn't been faked, baked, and played back as a video with clever shots of someone using a controller* I would be shocked.  Absolutely shocked.

Oh, also, have a dinosaur humping a spaceship (https://twitter.com/Byzil/status/766104232168521728?s=09).

*In watching this again, the guy makes some serious control manipulation during the potions that I most strongly consider "cutscene" and virtually none when I feel the player would actually have the most agency.  e.g. in the "dude reaches into the truck to pull out the oil filter and attach it to his pistol" (because that totally just works) the guy on stage is making tons of controller input motions.  Ditto when he gets jumped by a zombie in the middle of trying to yell at the NPC and punches it off his face (you aren't going to seriously tell me that there's controls for that, are you?).  Jumping up piles of stuff, tooling around on a motocycle, wandering around the deserted camp? Virtually no movement in his fingers at all: not even when he goes around a sharp corner.

Well, that was.... lame....

And people get all excited about this stuff?   You know, I hadn't REALLY watched any of the big press conferences at E3 in ages, so I sat down to have a proper look at this one (with a few quick skips ahead), and....

Ugh.  Is it just me, or do all of these games look the same?  Yet another God of War, yet another zombie shooter (ugh), yet another "open world" game, yet another damn Resident Evil, and what looks like another "definitely not a movie, there's totally gameplay here" Heavy Rain style thing.  The ONE thing that caught my attention was the sudden appearance of Crash Bandicoot.... which then turned out to be another Skylanders game.  Complete with gimmick.  Sigh...    Oh, and then of course some VR crap.  I wont even go into that.

Oh, and let's not forget Last Guardian, perhaps the most freaking vague of all of them, and has been for YEARS, but "OMG ITS GONNA BE SO GOOD" is typically the idea. 

Is this really what gamers get all jumpy about these days? All these things?  Honestly, all this did was make me feel old.  And I'm not even close to old enough that I should be getting that yet.  But that's what it did, mostly just made me think things like "you know what, I miss gaming in the early 90s" and things like that.   I'm seriously just seeing nothing in any of these.  Nothing.  If anything, it was depressing.

Looking down in the comments section sure didn't help.  People just buying into this left and right.   And then these games are going to come out, and it's going to be the same damn thing as always, PILES of whining about how the game in question didn't live up to the "promises" made about it.  Because all anyone sees and apparently needs to see is the damn spectacle.  And then the arguing follows, and.... uuugh.

And there'll still be a few games just bought up in droves (like RE there, bah) and even if they're just the same old crap as always, it'll be "OMG THIS IS SO GOOD, YOU GOTTA TRY THIS".  I feel like standards have just vanished at this point.

Bah.  I just don't get it.  And to tell the truth, I rather hope I never do.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 21, 2016, 10:26:59 AM
Ugh.  Is it just me, or do all of these games look the same?  Yet another God of War, yet another zombie shooter (ugh), yet another "open world" game, yet another damn Resident Evil, and what looks like another "definitely not a movie, there's totally gameplay here" Heavy Rain style thing. 
And that's how most of us see No Man's Sky. Yet another bloody open world snorefest like SO many before it.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 21, 2016, 10:40:11 AM
Hmm, genre confusion.

By "open world" what I mean is things like Skyrim.  Lots (and I mean LOTS) of talking to NPCs with looooooooooooooong dialog chains, and doing 10 kersquillionty "quests" with dungeons all over the place (this actually would make sense to me if the world was procedural; but it isn't, so WHY are there dungeons everywhere?) and cutscenes just threaded in at random points.  Er.... I think.  Did Skyrim have cutscenes?  Heck if I know.  I got bored of the talky bits really fast and stopped pretty early. Talk, talk, talk.  But I do remember the dungeons.    And then the "epic" dragon fights.  Every game in that genre has something like that.  Some big huge monster or something that comes in as a "set-piece battle" at some point, usually that point repeats itself a few times along the overall map.  Even Just Cause 2, the only "open world" game I've ever liked, had something like that, in the form of those blasted helicopters that tended to attack when you were raiding specific parts of the various army bases.   And then there's GTA.  I'll not speak of GTA.  It's for the best.

NMS is just a "survival" game.  Different genre.  Lack of NPCs, lack of talky bits, lack of quests, replaced with the usual harvesting/crafting and things of that nature.  Though quite a bit more light than some survival games and the high emphasis on exploration and travel.  Not lighter than ALL of them though, it tends not to be a hugely complicated genre.  Well, sort of... depends on which side of it you're on.  Though the only other one I can think of with such an extreme amount of travelling/exploring is DF's Adventure Mode.  May as well be an infinite universe in and of itself.  Full of elephants. 


Both genres are pretty much equally repetitive.  That bit I don't mind really.  I got used to really extreme repetition after all the shmups and roguelikes.   You don't get that much more repetitive than doing the same 5-minute stage 700 times before maybe beating it once almost.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 22, 2016, 12:55:46 AM
Ugh.  Is it just me, or do all of these games look the same?  Yet another God of War, yet another zombie shooter (ugh), yet another "open world" game, yet another damn Resident Evil, and what looks like another "definitely not a movie, there's totally gameplay here" Heavy Rain style thing. 

Naw, I'm worth you on that. 'S why I got into the very one-sided argument with that person (they said i was wrong and then promptly ignored me). They're a professional game reviewer too. Can't wait to rub it in her face on down the line.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 22, 2016, 03:59:37 AM
Ugh.  Is it just me, or do all of these games look the same?  Yet another God of War, yet another zombie shooter (ugh), yet another "open world" game, yet another damn Resident Evil, and what looks like another "definitely not a movie, there's totally gameplay here" Heavy Rain style thing. 

Naw, I'm worth you on that. 'S why I got into the very one-sided argument with that person (they said i was wrong and then promptly ignored me). They're a professional game reviewer too. Can't wait to rub it in her face on down the line.

You'd think a professional reviewer would have seen enough of this sort of thing to be a bit jaded by now...

I mean, obviously it's not guaranteed that any specific game will be BAD.  Definitely not.  And even something releasing into a super-crowded genre isn't inherently bad, either.  But some of these are starting to look like carbon copies of each other.  Hell, that one open-world one, I thought I was looking at another Elder Scrolls game for awhile.  I seriously thought that's what it was.  It just looked... the same. Again, not inherently bad, but still.   And I'm not even going to speak on that zombie one, I doubt I have to.

These AAA devs are really digging themselves a ditch that's way too deep with these hyper-expensive games that keep copying each other really directly, and I keep wondering just what the end result will be if this keeps up for too much longer.  More and more people seem to be getting really disillusioned with this stuff.  I know I sure as hell did.


On a side note, what is it with zombies these days?  Why is that such a thing still?  You know what I miss?  Ninjas.  It used to be ninjas everywhere.  Or space aliens.  I'd love to see those make a resurgence.  Zombies are fun and all but at least SOME variation would be nice...
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 22, 2016, 11:55:48 AM
Game design is hard.

Yo.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 22, 2016, 12:00:47 PM
Game design is hard.

Yo.
for sure I meant from a narrative sense really though mechanically it doesn't matter but narratively there relatively easy to set up as antagonists.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 22, 2016, 12:17:45 PM
Ugh.  Is it just me, or do all of these games look the same?  Yet another God of War, yet another zombie shooter (ugh), yet another "open world" game, yet another damn Resident Evil, and what looks like another "definitely not a movie, there's totally gameplay here" Heavy Rain style thing. 

Naw, I'm worth you on that. 'S why I got into the very one-sided argument with that person (they said i was wrong and then promptly ignored me). They're a professional game reviewer too. Can't wait to rub it in her face on down the line.






On a side note, what is it with zombies these days?  Why is that such a thing still?  You know what I miss?  Ninjas.  It used to be ninjas everywhere.  Or space aliens.  I'd love to see those make a resurgence.  Zombies are fun and all but at least SOME variation would be nice...
because they don't require any real though to set them up as antagonists same reason Nazis are used a lot for that.
doing something original would require thought and effort and a good deal of imagination narratively speaking.


Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 22, 2016, 12:18:22 PM
for sure I meant from a narrative sense really though mechanically it doesn't matter but narratively there relatively easy to set up as antagonists.

My post was more of a "[Verb] is Hard, yo" all-purpose catchphrase. (with an adequate pause before the "yo").

I broke my mother with it a couple weeks back, she was talking with my dad and stumbled over something and I just walked through the room (minding my own business) and caught only the failure to speak words correctly, and I said, "Words are hard, yo."
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 22, 2016, 12:21:17 PM
for sure I meant from a narrative sense really though mechanically it doesn't matter but narratively there relatively easy to set up as antagonists.

My post was more of a "[Verb] is Hard, yo" all-purpose catchphrase. (with an adequate pause before the "yo").

I broke my mother with it a couple weeks back, she was talking with my dad and stumbled over something and I just walked through the room (minding my own business) and caught only the failure to speak words correctly, and I said, "Words are hard, yo."
fair enough I thought you were casting shade on me is all.
but that story's pretty funny
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Dominus Arbitrationis on August 22, 2016, 12:22:55 PM
I think I'm going to have to start using that now.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 22, 2016, 12:24:25 PM
fair enough I thought you were casting shade on me is all.
but that story's pretty funny

Nah, it's a joke.  "Why zombies, because they're easy"
"Game design is hard, yo."

Dom:
You can literally use it for anything.  Math, speaking, eating, drinking, breathing....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 22, 2016, 12:31:28 PM
fair enough I thought you were casting shade on me is all.
but that story's pretty funny

Nah, it's a joke.  "Why zombies, because they're easy"
"Game design is hard, yo."

Dom:
You can literally use it for anything.  Math, speaking, eating, drinking, breathing....
yea I get it no sweat.
sometimes its hard to forget that not everybody on the internet loves starting big sweaty arguments.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 22, 2016, 12:41:19 PM
Heh
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 22, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
Just looked at Steam. NMS is really getting flogged hard. Down to 53%.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 22, 2016, 07:36:05 PM

Frankly, I find the whole thing baffling.  I know hyped games and in-development games can be hard to follow, but there's even more misconceptions with this one than there are usually.   It's ridiculous.


If you still find this baffling between, watch the Angry Joe Review ;) He shows you where the misconceptions come from, and to be honest if I hadn't already suspected (back from my experience with X Rebirth) That all E3 interviews are total nonsense and if a indy dev gets on any big comedians stage, 100% of what he says is nonsense! I would have believed this hype as well.

multiplayer (meeting other players) (was CLEARLY alluded to in E3 2014 / E3 2015 interviews)
faction system with benefits depending on your playstyle
border regions with conflicts between races, where you can choose sides between factions

ship discovery (naming and scanning)
drastic ship differences between the races
free flight on the planets

real story (with set pieces and such) leading to the "center" with proper ending
making interesting discoveries related to that story on planets
#pure desert worlds (no such thing)
#pure ocean worlds (you can't land on water, so no such thing)
#//the # stuff is because that wouldn't really give the game much more point, just some more variance

You know, stuff that would give the game some structure, some point to all the grind.

Dunno whether ocean and desert worlds are in the game, but from my perusing of streams I never saw em... so I'd guess nope.

And I think this is why so many people got the wrong impression of this game pre release
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 22, 2016, 09:02:59 PM
http://kotaku.com/the-no-mans-sky-hype-dilemma-1785416931?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 22, 2016, 09:43:37 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-star-citizen-plans-to-do-much-of-what-no-mans-/1100-6442819/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0a
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 22, 2016, 09:48:31 PM
Reminds me of an old saying in game development that I've seen brought up often with Spore and Molyneux

The dream you're conjuring in peoples heads should be compelling, but attainable

And really, that's the core of the issue. If the 2014 E3 trailer was really what I suspected ( a CGI mockup with absolutely ZERO real gameplay ) then that is doing exactly what the above notion warns you against, it conjures a dream of a game that is never attainable.

And what is worse than doing that?

Clamping down behind your settler wagons and not talking to your gamers, to your fans. THIS is why game developers *NEED* someone responsible solely and completely and utterly for PR only. PR makes or unmakes you in the age of the internet. Lack of PR conjures the worst scenarios in peoples minds. They will ALWAYS assume the worst case (that they've been lied to) and not the best case (feature cut for reasons of infinite complexity, or maybe just plain "time reasons" )

And yes, the small things are important, even in a massive open world To quote chris roberts ,)
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: wwwhhattt on August 24, 2016, 12:50:45 AM
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-star-citizen-plans-to-do-much-of-what-no-mans-/1100-6442819/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0a
I get the impression that the NMS hype and fallout is just the dress rehearsal for Star Citizen. They've had the same "it'll be great!" & "It'll be terrible." - but Star Citizen gets more people much more angry/defensive, and there's more money involved so people are far more eager to get angry on other peoples behalf.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 24, 2016, 03:03:28 AM
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-star-citizen-plans-to-do-much-of-what-no-mans-/1100-6442819/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0a
I get the impression that the NMS hype and fallout is just the dress rehearsal for Star Citizen. They've had the same "it'll be great!" & "It'll be terrible." - but Star Citizen gets more people much more angry/defensive, and there's more money involved so people are far more eager to get angry on other peoples behalf.

That's EXACTLY what I'm expecting.

The dumb thing is, like NMS, and going along with what Total Biscuit said about this whole thing, Star Citizen could end up technically being a good game.... but because people's expectations are so utterly beyond ridiculous and impossible, it could get WAY beyond the level of hate that anything else has gotten thus far. 

The REALLY dumb thing is that people are STILL doing that thing where they just automatically believe everything they hear about it.  I mean, seriously.  I don't care if it comes from a trailer, from a direct interview, whatever.  NEVER believe stuff for games that are not out yet.  This is why I, personally, have not been disappointed with NMS, because I properly researched it, ignored the "well that's clearly not going to happen at launch" bits, and knew exactly what I was going to get, which is, in fact, exactly what I got. 

But the process has indeed already started with Star Citizen.  And people are already using a million excuses if you point this out.  "Oh THIS time will be different, because such and such!".    My favorite is "Well it wont happen because we can PLAY THE ALPHA".   You know, I've done SO much testing of games over the years.  Definitely not just for Arcen.  For so many games.  And I've watched games that, in alpha/beta, seem so good, have so much promise... but over time they get corrupted by derp more, and more, and more, even despite player complaints, and AT RELEASE, well.... yeah, they don't come out well at all.   They go from being "Hey, this is pretty good!  It has a lot of promise!" to "OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED?!?!? WHAT ACCURSED ARTIFACT HAVE I STUMBLED UPON?".   The state of an alpha/beta means just as little as a trailer.  Things change FAST during development.  And things can go out of control really easily.

But point that out to anyone, and it's ignored.  I know many people that are eagerly awaiting that game, and they have the same utterly-impossible-for-any-dev-to-fulfill expectations of it.  And I know them well enough to know that when the game does finally come out a billion years from now, they're going to be REALLY DAMN ANGRY.


I shall bring popcorn to this event.  And a blast shield.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 24, 2016, 11:03:50 AM
I shall bring popcorn to this event.  And a blast shield.

I was coerced into paying $20 for Star Citizen already, and I've kinda been pointedly ignoring all news about it.
But yes.  Popcorn will be had one way or another.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 24, 2016, 12:02:43 PM
I shall bring popcorn to this event.  And a blast shield.

I was coerced into paying $20 for Star Citizen already, and I've kinda been pointedly ignoring all news about it.
But yes.  Popcorn will be had one way or another.

At least you didn't pay $2000 for a virtual ship, or whatever other utterly absurd prices they're still charging in their store.   Really, that alone is enough to make me think that something's really wrong with that game.

You're not missing anything by ignoring the news about it though.  It's progress is REALLY slow.  We're talking Dwarf Fortress development level of slow (not that I have a problem with Toady's development style, mind you). 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 24, 2016, 12:09:32 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/4zcsve/no_mans_sky_has_lost_90_of_its_players/

Ouch.

I've even heard there's frequent crashing on the PS4 version, which has made it even less popular.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 24, 2016, 12:11:30 PM
At least you didn't pay $2000 for a virtual ship, or whatever other utterly absurd prices they're still charging in their store.

Of course not, I wasn't stupid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/4zcsve/no_mans_sky_has_lost_90_of_its_players/

Goodness.

Edit, this quote:
Quote
You know what No Man's Sky retained 100% of?
The money from your purchase.
Mission accomplished
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Kahuna on August 26, 2016, 12:28:53 PM
SHOCKING Interview with Sean Murray [No Man's Sky]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mz5YPkThOU

No Mans Sky (PC Version) - Worthabuy? Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HefCxo9UVtA

No Mans Sky Part #2 - Worthabuy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nQ1bt9eflU
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 26, 2016, 01:20:18 PM
Listening to the second video is probably worse than buying/playing the game.
I know that he tries to be funny but it is in no way funny, just annoying as hell.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 26, 2016, 06:41:25 PM
SHOCKING Interview with Sean Murray [No Man's Sky]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mz5YPkThOU

As annoying as that clip is, that's frighteningly accurate.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 26, 2016, 07:40:15 PM
SHOCKING Interview with Sean Murray [No Man's Sky]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mz5YPkThOU

No Mans Sky (PC Version) - Worthabuy? Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HefCxo9UVtA

No Mans Sky Part #2 - Worthabuy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nQ1bt9eflU
To be honest, when listening to the "Worthabuy" videos, where he talks about the whole point of the game is to:

Mine things on a planet so you can build a ship, then fly to another planet and mine things so you can give it fuel, then fly to another planet so you can mine things to make your "drill" better", then fly to another planet so you can mine more fuel, then go to the next planet on and on (there's really no point) --

This is a criticism I don't understand. For me, ALL of these crafting games are like that. Where is the arbitrary line drawn in which a person decides which game has content and which game doesn't? Minecraft is better because you can build more things? But when it was released it was pretty damn basic too. Sure, it wasn't 60 bucks but NMS is on such a more massive scale, with graphics that don't look like they came out of a pre-schoolers imagination, of course it's going to be 4 times the price. I'm sure it took 4 times the work.

So let's go down the list: Terraria, Starbound, Stardew Valley, etc. etc.

If you've played one you've played them all. For the life of me I can't understand the appeal of these games in the first place, or why this particular one is being received worse than the rest.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 26, 2016, 08:25:27 PM
I cannot compare NMS because I don't have it but I can say these games are as simliar as is AI War with Starcraft. They both are RTS games but that's all.

Let's take aside teh fact that one is 2D or §3D but this is already a big difference for itself.
Minecraft is in my opinion now outdatesd. The reason why it was so popular is because it was the first. You can build really cool stuff with it if you are into that and soem people still do this but most people don't play Minecraft anymore because there are many better alternatives. but let's look at what Minecraft has to offer.
It has the ability to remove a block and build it at another place. It works liek Lego, take a brick, place it somewhere, take multiple bricks and build a house, a car, whatever you want. Minecraft also features a survival mode which changes the game towards an adventure-like approach. You have to eat food that you can collect, at the night monsters appear and attack you. You can plant seeds and farm wheat and other food. You collect minerals for new tools and so on and so on. Eventually you can enter anther dimension where stronger enemies live and in tthat dimension you can find a portal to another dimension that leads to the final boss fight. But a side from the final boss and an optional boss there aren't many epic battles in Minecraft, it's more do what you want, when you want". That alone is btw a big appeal for these types of games, the reason why tehy came into existence to begin with.

terraria on the other hand works differently. The same concept is the same, as if with any other genre, they share same core elements. In RTS games you control units and direct them through terrain to find enemies and kill enemies.
In terraria you collect stuff, craft tools and weapons. But terraria for example has NPcs, soemthign that Minecraft also had but scratched only the surface ont hat. Terraria has many different NPCs with their own purpose, they unlock new stuff for you, so you can progress further through the game. Terraria features also a lot of different bosses, each with its own attack pattern. A big difference of terraria is also that there is a lot of loot that you get only from enemies and cannot be found through digging or crafting (or you need loot for crafting). Terraria is more combat oriented as Minecraft, you don't have to fight all the different enemies of the game but you will loose all the cool items if you don't.

I don' know why you have included Stardew valley in your list because that's not a game of the same genre. Like, miles away, seriously. It's a farmign game. Not an open-world game, not a survival game, not even a sandbox game. It's simply a farming game.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 26, 2016, 08:56:56 PM
Aye, it's a different appeal for each one, really.

Minecraft remains the biggest of all of them by far, and currently is the one considered to have "the most stuff to do".  When mods are added to it, it becomes.... anything.  But you don't need mods at all to have tons and tons of options.   It doesn't matter too much WHAT you want out of a game, you can get it in some form here.   For me, a huge part of the appeal is that the game's goals aren't just some arbitrary story crap decided beforehand.  *I* decide the goals when playing, and new goals may appear during the pursuing of those goals.  I think Notch called this idea "emergent gameplay".  The game is not at all linear, unless you want it to be (some of these games kinda are linear, but even then, you don't HAVE to follow it). 

Terraria is a lot more focused on combat, with sort of a Metroidvania feel to it.  It has the building elements, however it's WAY more linear than Minecraft (to me, it's easily the single most linear of the entire genre) and does not have an unlimited world.  But there's tons of content, lots of items to find, NPC shops (which is pretty much what NPCs do in Terraria, they mostly sell you stuff).... many things.  Lots of crazy weapons and equipment to find or forge, powerups to get....   my only real problem with Terraria is how absurdly spammy the combat is.  Minecraft used to have a hyper-spammy combat system (that got changed recently) but Terraria managed to be even more spammy.  Combat issues aside though, it's still a good game.

Starbound is by the same developer; it's slower and more "deliberate" than Terraria (you're not going to be wildly bouncing around the screen shooting deathrays out your ears), but is a lot wider in scope and has much more when it comes to NPCs, including quests and such that you can do.   It also has a full storyline to pursue, including a final boss (Minecraft and Terraria also have final bosses, but no story), but you don't have to do that stuff if you don't want to.  There's still a zillion things to find and do.


The appeal differs a little for any of these, but the overall idea remains the same.  They're NOT meant for players that need a big storyline and talky bits and whatever to hold them through a game.  They're the sort of things where you figure out what YOU want to do, and the game will, in a way, structure itself around that.  Hard to explain.   I know some people see these as games where you "just build" or whatever, but I get more action/adventure/excitement/challenge out of these than I do out of most things, to be honest.

I play all three of them, though Minecraft remains my favorite.  I never recommed them to just absolutely everyone, I wouldn't say that any of these are "universal" games that everyone everywhere should try, but for those that can go along with the sorts of concepts here, they're bloody fantastic.  I absolutely will recommend them if I think the person might be even slightly into that sort of idea.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 27, 2016, 12:18:55 AM
This is a criticism I don't understand. For me, ALL of these crafting games are like that. Where is the arbitrary line drawn in which a person decides which game has content and which game doesn't? Minecraft is better because you can build more things? But when it was released it was pretty damn basic too. Sure, it wasn't 60 bucks but NMS is on such a more massive scale, with graphics that don't look like they came out of a pre-schoolers imagination, of course it's going to be 4 times the price. I'm sure it took 4 times the work.

No, it's because you can build things:
(http://static.planetminecraft.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1123/javaw-20110612-22464545_86759.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DU0VM16r94s/TSsQvw41GLI/AAAAAAAAAP4/aAQnw7LXqY4/w1440-h810-no/sydney_opera_house.jpg)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/n1xyex.jpg)

Can you do that in NMS?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 27, 2016, 03:19:31 AM
That's true, but you dont NEED to build things to enjoy those.  I'm not all that much of a builder myself... I'll build SOMETHING, and that element is still definitely important to me, but it ends up looking like a bizarre, distorted mess.   Functional though, my structures at least have that quality.

Of course, that's in those games; not all games in the survival genre have those elements.  Yet they're still lumped together.... odd, when I think about it.

The main point though is that something like Minecraft is pretty much whatever you make of it.  If you want to build, then do that.  If you want to go on adventures and explore dungeons and fight monsters, you can do that.   If you want to build a house IN the dungeon surrounded by monsters, then frankly you're missing a few screws, but you can do that too.  More "traditional" games dont do that sort of thing:  You approach them using only specific types of methods that the devs choose for you in advance, and you typically plod along some story-driven route instead of creating your own narrative.  The ability to NOT have those restraints can be a really big deal for some (including myself). 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 27, 2016, 11:29:46 AM
Right, but when you have neither free-roam nor story driven?  What then?

Well, I think that's what NMS is sounding like.  A weak story without any sort of "do what you want."

I mean, I'm about to download one of the Captive Minecraft (http://thefarlanders.com/captive-minecraft-home/) maps.  What's Captive Minecraft?  you, trapped inside a very tiny World Border.  Like 1x1 in size.  Every achievement you get increases that size by 1.  There's no way NMS could pull something like that off.  Or something like Skyblock or Skygrid with the absolute barest amount of resources necessary to survive.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 27, 2016, 11:56:48 AM
Terraria at least has progression. The game gets progressively harder as you progress. NMS seem to start out in one way and then perpetually sit there no matter how much you "progress".
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 27, 2016, 07:46:01 PM
Right, but when you have neither free-roam nor story driven?  What then?

Well, I think that's what NMS is sounding like.  A weak story without any sort of "do what you want."

I mean, I'm about to download one of the Captive Minecraft (http://thefarlanders.com/captive-minecraft-home/) maps.  What's Captive Minecraft?  you, trapped inside a very tiny World Border.  Like 1x1 in size.  Every achievement you get increases that size by 1.  There's no way NMS could pull something like that off.  Or something like Skyblock or Skygrid with the absolute barest amount of resources necessary to survive.

I wasnt referring to NMS in any of that though.  NMS isnt like Minecraft.... and neither is half of the survival genre.

Remember, the genre also consists of games like Dont Starve, which typically lock you into one small area and then try to kill you over and over.  Or a variety of other games that have no real building.  Hell, as I said during an earlier part of this topic, even something like Dwarf Fortress's Adventure Mode fits in there.  And you cant build ANYTHING in that.  Unless lighting an extremely ineffective fire is "building".

I have no idea why the two types of games are lumped together always, but that's typically what the "survival" genre is, is either Minecraft games with building and stuff, or the others that are more "just survive against the odds, find a place to stay instead of build one". There's alot of both right now.   NMS is just a very lighthearted one, which seems to be part of the problem for many.   Not something I understand.

As for the "do anything bit", you can do what you want in that game.  You dont HAVE to follow the Atlas thing or whatever.   Hell, I've spent most of my time with it getting randomly distracted by shiny things and zooming in all directions because I can, which is pretty much how I play anything really.    If you want to take your ship with your warp drive and just explore in a random direction, you're allowed tondo that.   Nobody ever said you were forced into doing specific things in that game.  The ONLY thing it makes you do is fix your ship initially, and learn how to get warp cells.   After that, you can either follow Atlas, or go do whatever. 


Terraria at least has progression. The game gets progressively harder as you progress. NMS seem to start out in one way and then perpetually sit there no matter how much you "progress".


Far as I'm concerned, this is how most games are.

Hell, it's how Minecraft is, unless I alter it.  That's just me, though.

Considering the nature of NMS, I cant imagine why anyone would go into it expecting this big challenge.  The game was about exploring to begin with, not explosions.   Though perhaps that's part of the problem:  the side of the survival genre that NMS is on (non-building) is usually a tough one.  So then you get one that doesnt fit that. 


Though, again, none of this has anything really to do with what I was getting at about Minecraft/Terraria/Starbound specifically.  Someone brought up the question of the appeal of games like those.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on August 28, 2016, 07:28:35 PM
Okay, time to make it clear: Is NMS a surv ival game or not?

Because what makes a survival game actually survival? what does it differentiate from an exploration game?
Of course the survival aspect. And a lot of "claimed" survival games simply don't get this right. Let's take a look at Don't Starve, probably the best example for a survival game.
A typical aspect of such games is that you need soemthing to sustain yourself over a longer time. If you don't have it, you will eventually die, therefor "survival". In most most games like this it is hunger because hunger is obviously the best choice. People have to eat. However, there can be addional sources of sustainment. Don't Starve has also sanity, if it gets too low it affects your world and makes it harder to survive. In other games there are often stats for sleep, thirst and the most prominent "health" which is affected by all other stats but also by other sources like attacks.
Having all this is the fundation of every survival game. NMS has this (at least what've seen from LP videos). However, the foudnation is not sufficient enough, you also need walls and a roof.
You need of course a reason to survive. Or in other words: Why should I try my best NOT to die?
Don't Starve makes it easy: if you die, you die for good. You cannot continue your game, you will have to start from the beginning. There are some types of "extra life" mechanics int he game but these have to be discovered first and are not giving, they also last only the first time and cannot be replenished.
Minecraft has also its punishment. If you die, you loose your inventory. You can now either try to retrive it (with the chance to die again to whatever killed you) or rebuild what you've lost. Either way, the player is forced to play safe otherwise he gets a deep cut in his resources and time.
It looks like No Mans Sky has  a simliar system like Minecraft but at the same time makes it trivial to retrieve your stuff since it is shown in the map or something like that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 28, 2016, 10:19:54 PM
I would argue NMS is not a survival game because the only time you are in danger of anything is if you deactivate your brain ;p Tangentially there is the threat of resource loss, but that is it. You can never be stranded anywhere, you can never "lose" anything of value. Neither your ship, nor your upgrades, nor your multi-tool. In fact I would argue the only real danger is when say, a wormhole jump damages something that you *really* can't repair in this sector (but even then, it's not a game over) just a ton of grind to get back the resources you need for repairs, via trading.

So as you say, the game has the basic foundation of a survival game, but the walls and roof are an open sandbox with no higher threat. The sky is just pointless populated procedural irrelevance. If we go by the old game definition and seeing the ending of NMS I would have to go far and say it isn't even a game. It's more akin to an walking simulator, even though you CAN die, but that does not make it any less a walking simulator, the only reason for you to grind is to "keep walking". And this is why I brought that term up before.

Still, I think it would be best described as a procedural sandbox exploration game

And seeing as the ending is
basically just "new game+"
I also have to argue that the game has no real end or goal, and as such no purpose. It really is the perfect game to make you think "Why am I playing this when I could be playing XXXXXXX" ;p
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 28, 2016, 11:58:26 PM
To be fair, though, that sort of argument as relates to the genre could be applied to LOTS of games like these.

Hell, Terraria.  All you have is HP to worry about.... and even then, only some of the time.   Die in Terraria on it's default mode, and all that happens is.... nothing.   You'll lose some money.  And even THAT is only going to matter if you were bloody stupid enough to keep all of your money with you (and there's no conceivable reason to do this, ever).  Yet, Terraria, despite it's near total lack of true threat (despite all the monsters, most of which are on the weak side), is still considered a "survival" game.  When really it's closest to being a randomly-generated Metroid-vania game.

As for Minecraft... that I already went into.  If you want actual danger in that game, you either have to A: summon the Wither, or B: go to the bottom of the ocean, literally, as the Monuments are the one and only dangerous place in the game. Sort of.  There's no point in summoning the Wither (the Nether Star has no purpose now, not after the 1.9 update), and the Monuments are just sort of... there.  They don't have all that much function, unless you're after the sponges, of course. Or Prismarine, and even that's just decorative.  So it's kinda like what you say with NMS:  you're really only in danger of your own stupidity.  Yet, many consider the game the king of the genre (including myself).   Despite the existence of something like Don't Starve, and the only thing the two really share is "you have to eat".   

I dunno.  Genre definition frankly confuses me these days.   I just stick a damn label on them and then try not to think about it too hard.  I kinda miss the days where something was either trying to be Space Invaders or it was a clone of Pac-Man, and it was nice and simple.  Even though I'm not really old enough to have quite experienced that specific time period.  Damn well miss it anyway.



As for NMS's ending, the going theory (that I hear about) is that it actually isn't the ending.  It's merely what's at the core.  Apparently there's *a lot* of hints in the game's lore text that the actual end is elsewhere, which wouldn't surprise me in a game like this.  Or so I hear (could be wrong); as always I don't really care about any of that myself, so I only pay attention to the bits that lead me to stuff I want; I know the Atlas thingie eventually hits the core, which is the extent of the knowledge I need for now.   The core being "new game +" means... a whole lot of squat to me.   LOTS of games do that.  It's just as bloody stupid in those as it is in this.... always has been, always will be, at least by my view.  PARTICULARLY in RPGs.   I despise that genre with a blazing hatred to begin with, and that just makes those even more baffling to me.  Someone I know tried to explain it once, I'm pretty sure I threw something at him.

Though, to be honest, my own view on something like this is that if you NEED the game to have some sort of satisfying STORY ending to suffice for you, and if that's the reason why you're playing said game... it's not actually that good of a game (IE, in games like Final Fantasy or whatever, where you "play it for the story" which again baffles me to no end) since it's not actually the gameplay that's pulling you into it. Which means that the gameplay probably isn't very good (and which means that this probably applies to LOTS of games right now, as I cant count the sheer number of times I've heard "play it for the story" in recent years).  I'm fine with games that have no ending... there's TONS of those.  I've been playing that sort since I was 3.  Or games where the "ending" is "YOU FOUND THE AMULET OF THINGIE, YOU WIN, KTHXBAI!!!".  Or games where there is one, and ONLY one end:  "Game Over".  Quite familiar with those sorts, and I don't mean shmups.   As I always infuriate friends by saying:  "If I want a story, I'll go read a book.  I play games to play the damn games, not read or watch them".    I get the feeling the NMS guys kinda had similar ideas.  There's lore stuff, but the game never shoves this into your face and you have to actually look hard enough to even find it.  The way I've heard it phrased by others is that the "point" of the game is just the experience it gives.  Not some end goal, not some amazing story whatever.  Some people like games that let them go around, explore, look at things, maybe occaisionally explode some stuff, and that makes up the experience for them.    Even something like Elite: Dangerous is like this.  There's no real "story" or anything to follow (unless you consider non-stop trading to be a "story"), and much of that game is a HUGE grind (way more grindy than NMS, if you play far enough in).  You're not after some "end point".  The point of Elite, though, is that sense of flying a ship through space, and doing the sorts of things you would think you'd do in space, with an emphasis on ship physics and stuff like space battles or whatever.  It's not some big story moment that pushes players forward into keeping playing the game.  Perhaps it was different with the original Elite though, heck if I know.  Never played the original.

Really, I'll just never understand that idea of story goals or some specific "end" being the focus whatsoever.   Don't really want to, either...



I've totally lost track of where I was going with this.  I apologize if this was even more incoherent than usual.  I just finished a long drive and haven't really had my caffeine yet.  Which I suppose brings up the question of why I'm on the forum at the moment.  Hmm. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 29, 2016, 02:23:18 AM
Haha don't worry ;) And I agree with you, to me these sandboxes including minecraft, and even X series and Civ/4x games are always just measured in terms of "how long do I accept this gameplay till I think I could playing something way more challenging and fun"

Like Anno, Factorio.. or Open TTD.. I could be playing these for months and never get bored, because there are always problems based on map/terrain/things with solutions that take effort and thought. And when you are done with solving a problem, it also tens to just plain look neat and the mere act  of watching a solution "just work" in those games is pretty addicting.

And I have to admit that my list of "games I love beyond finishing them once" is in the low teens. NMS is a perfect game to play a few hours and then uninstall, well, it would be if I had fallen for the hype.

In some sense to me, the only value a game has is during the "exploration" phase, ie. when I am exploring the gameplay and to what depth it offers fun and challenges... once I beat a puzzle for example, I would NEVER go back to do it again. That is just not me ;)

And btw, just look at Factorio, that is MY factory.. nobody else would ever build anything even remotely similar and this is the "pool of fun" for me. When I solve a problem in factorio without looking at a wiki, then that is MY solution. This is, so to say, my world I created and in some sense this has infinite more source of gameplay fun than NMS could ever have. While I could explore in NMS, nothing I find there would ever truly be shaped by me.

(http://i.imgur.com/JcUh7jZ.jpg)
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 29, 2016, 02:36:25 AM
NMS is just a very lighthearted one, which seems to be part of the problem for many.   Not something I understand.
I think, aside from the obvious "betrayal" of the overhype, that this right here is the key problem. People expect some kind of challenge and deep mechanics from survival games. At least I do, but I freely admit I'm not very into the survival genre because I find the games too simple. I want something like Zomboid, even though that's not even near finished. NMS doesn't really seem to have many "survival" aspects to it beyond managing your life support now and then.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 29, 2016, 05:25:10 AM
Haha don't worry ;) And I agree with you, to me these sandboxes including minecraft, and even X series and Civ/4x games are always just measured in terms of "how long do I accept this gameplay till I think I could playing something way more challenging and fun"

Like Anno, Factorio.. or Open TTD.. I could be playing these for months and never get bored, because there are always problems based on map/terrain/things with solutions that take effort and thought. And when you are done with solving a problem, it also tens to just plain look neat and the mere act  of watching a solution "just work" in those games is pretty addicting.

And I have to admit that my list of "games I love beyond finishing them once" is in the low teens. NMS is a perfect game to play a few hours and then uninstall, well, it would be if I had fallen for the hype.

In some sense to me, the only value a game has is during the "exploration" phase, ie. when I am exploring the gameplay and to what depth it offers fun and challenges... once I beat a puzzle for example, I would NEVER go back to do it again. That is just not me ;)

And btw, just look at Factorio, that is MY factory.. nobody else would ever build anything even remotely similar and this is the "pool of fun" for me. When I solve a problem in factorio without looking at a wiki, then that is MY solution. This is, so to say, my world I created and in some sense this has infinite more source of gameplay fun than NMS could ever have. While I could explore in NMS, nothing I find there would ever truly be shaped by me.

Ah yes, don't even get me started on Anno.  2070 is the main one I've played, bloody fantastic game.  One of those that I don't get tired of.  City builders are nice and all but that just adds so much more to the mix... it's a good series.

Except for the most recent one that is.  Ugh.  I try not to talk too much about that one.  Terrible!  I can understand a series that STARTS kinda simple, but taking something that's already complex and interesting and dumbing it down really just irks me a bit too much.  Way too much.  Like the whole SimCity debacle... will never forgive EA for that disaster.  And it's not like they didn't already have tons of excellent material to be inspired by, and to show them what people loved about the series.  Which, now, is probably a dead series.  What a shame.

And yeah, I can understand what you mean about the exploration bit.  For anyone that doesn't focus much on the actual exploration aspect in a generated world, NMS isn't the way to go.  At least not yet anyway; that may come later.  Frankly neither is Minecraft, sort of (when it comes to providing challenge anyway). There's a million things to do but yeah, not much difficulty.   Though, that does change when mods are added, so that's good.  It's hard NOT to change when you add 110 mods at the same time, heh.  Hell, IndustrialCraft and it's endless machinery will keep some people busy for a hundred hours just on it's own, let alone with tons of other stuff included.  I'm glad the game is so moddable.  Going to take a stab at making one myself, which may or may not be a disastrous mess.

As for Factorio, you know, I keep meaning to try that one.  I keep not doing so.   Keep forgetting it's there.  Not for like, anything resembling a reason.  Just... because I'm too damn spacey.  But it does look good.  The whole nature of it kinda reminds me of setting up supply chains and all of that in Anno.


Quote
I think, aside from the obvious "betrayal" of the overhype, that this right here is the key problem. People expect some kind of challenge and deep mechanics from survival games. At least I do, but I freely admit I'm not very into the survival genre because I find the games too simple. I want something like Zomboid, even though that's not even near finished. NMS doesn't really seem to have many "survival" aspects to it beyond managing your life support now and then.

So... Zomboid still isn't out?  Hmm.  That one always looks really interesting to me but at the same time it looks so very unfinished.  They seem to be taking about 10 million billion years with it.

If you've not played them, look up Cataclysm DDA and Rogue Survivor.  Both are zombie-filled survival games, though they're turn-based, not action.  Cataclysm in particular is complicated as all hell, nasty learning curve on that one.  Well, so is the other, but not quite as much.  Very difficult.  Cataclysm in particular.  Tends to encourage you to run from the zombies (and other nasty things) as they get super dangerous really fast.  I kinda like that "only fight when you really need to" aspect, too many zombie games just throw a billionty slow-moving undead jerks and expect you to clobber most of them.  Been done a bit too much, that.

That being said, yes, a lot of the genre isn't very complicated.  Granted, it depends on one's definition of "complicated", for some of these.  Since it's a new genre, only really appearing in the last few years, this isn't really surprising though. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 29, 2016, 09:53:27 AM
Rogue survivor is a good one. It reminds me a lot of Zomboid, only looking worse and being turn based rather than real time.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on August 29, 2016, 11:51:20 AM
Right, but when you have neither free-roam nor story driven?  What then?

Well, I think that's what NMS is sounding like.  A weak story without any sort of "do what you want."
I wasnt referring to NMS in any of that though.  NMS isnt like Minecraft.... and neither is half of the survival genre.

The point I was trying to make was that NMS has no player driven alternate rules set.  It's a free-exploration game with no boundaries and no place to put any boundaries.

Minecraft maps like Skyblock and Captive enforce extreme restrictions on the player as a form of minimalism: how little can you get away with having and still be able to play.  There's dozens of maps like this, some use command blocks (Captive), some don't (Skyblock), some require that the player use the honor system (e.g. "never breed animals" would be a variant that would impact how you approach food).

Name one thing you could do with NMS rules that would change the experience.
NMS has neither boundaries nor story.
It fails to be a game.
Chris Crawford's definition of a "game":
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 30, 2016, 06:25:00 PM
Looks like No Man's Sky is hemorrhaging profits, as not only has most of the playerbase already quit, but now people are apparently seeking refunds in mass numbers through Amazon, Sony, Valve and anywhere else they can get it.

It also has the worst reviews (http://store.steampowered.com/app/275850/) on Steam of any AAA game I've ever seen, by far. Apparently the refund requests have become so numerous that Valve has put an orange disclaimer on the Store page of NMS to warn people that the won't be able to get a refund for any reason except the normal rules (Less than 2 hours of playtime within the first 2 weeks).

Pretty brutal.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1550619/no-mans-sky-players-are-putting-refund-policies-to-the-test
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Toranth on August 30, 2016, 06:49:05 PM
Looks like No Man's Sky is hemorrhaging profits, as not only has most of the playerbase already quit, but now people are apparently seeking refunds in mass numbers through Amazon, Sony, Valve and anywhere else they can get it.

It also has the worst reviews (http://store.steampowered.com/app/275850/) on Steam of any AAA game I've ever seen, by far. Apparently the refund requests have become so numerous that Valve has put an orange disclaimer on the Store page of NMS to warn people that the won't be able to get a refund for any reason except the normal rules (Less than 2 hours of playtime within the first 2 weeks).

Pretty brutal.

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1550619/no-mans-sky-players-are-putting-refund-policies-to-the-test
Wow.  Still better ratings than StarForge (but not by much).

I wonder if this will finally break the Refund policies?  They've been amazingly loose and abusive.  And as Chris pointed out, a refund doesn't just mean returning the money.  It also means that the publisher/developer is stuck paying the fees.  This will end up costing them tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars, beyond the millions they aren't getting in sales.  I mean, will Hello Games sue Valve for all those refunds outside of the standard policy?  They might have grounds to do so, and that sounds like a LOT of money being passed around.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 30, 2016, 08:36:34 PM
I'll be honest, it's frankly really damn stupid to me.  The behavior of these vendors, I mean.

I get the impression that the ACTUAL reason this is even happening is because the vendors think this is good publicity for them.  Like, "Look at this amaaaaazing service we're giving you... our policies are able to fit your needs!  Of COURSE you can refund this!!! See how great we are, AND THEN COME BUY MORE STUFFS!!!11".    Taking advantage of the debacle.  Typical corporate behavior, but it's a bit more ridiculous this time.

I mean, really, how many other "disappointments" has this happened with?   And frankly those other ones are way worse than this, since NMS is NOT a AAA title to begin with.  It's an indie game that Sony shoved into the spotlight in exactly the wrong way while at the same time putting exactly the wrong guy in charge of PR.  That's all it is.   Yet nobody did this sort of crap when, say, Watch Dogs (with it's team of 100+ developers, who should have no excuses, same as every other "didn't come out at all like they showed" AAA game) came out, for instance.  Which may not be the best example, but it's the one that's coming to mind; there are probably other games you can think of that were MUCH worse.   Yet this sort of thing didn't happen until now.   Because the internet didn't flip the funky hell out over it.

Kinda pathetic, really. 

I'll be interested to see the aftermath, though.   What happens with these idiot vendors when the next big AAA game comes out and, SURPRISE SURPRISE, isn't what it was said to be?  People are going to push for refunds like this again, after seeing that it worked this time, so what are these vendors going to do?   That could get pretty entertaining.


Ugh.  Always with this sort of thing happening though, in many varied forms.  I'm glad I don't work in the industry, really.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: chemical_art on August 30, 2016, 08:40:40 PM
At least watch dogs was a game. And its reviews are a saint compared to NMS
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 30, 2016, 10:01:34 PM
At least watch dogs was a game. And its reviews are a saint compared to NMS

Depends on the definition of "game".   I've seen it, holy hell does it look boring.  It's not one I've played, good grief no, I just used it as an example due to it being the first to come to mind, which is mostly because someone I know was ranting about it recently. 

Not to mention that even a lot of the NMS reviews, well... half the time they don't seem to be reviewing the actual game itself.  They seem to be reviewing the fact that morons thought it'd be something that it isn't, which.... isn't how reviews work.   I mean, seriously, most reviews are "I THOUGHT IT WOULD HAVE THIS BUT IT DOESNT INSTEAD IT HAS THIS SO THAT'S DUMB, THIS IS ALL DUMB".   How... how is that a review of the actual completed product?   But that's what I've seen in most of them. 

The only way to find a REAL review of the game is to find one written by someone who didn't give enough of a damn to follow any of the hype whatsoever and thus knew nothing going into it, regardless of wether they end up giving a positive or negative review.   I've only seen a couple like that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: chemical_art on August 30, 2016, 10:22:15 PM

The only way to find a REAL review of the game is to find one written by someone who didn't give enough of a damn to follow any of the hype whatsoever and thus knew nothing going into it, regardless of wether they end up giving a positive or negative review.   I've only seen a couple like that.

The same can be said for any movie, restraunt, or frankly any review ever. The corrupt / bias / whatever term you want to call it goes in every industry. Games are not at all unique in that regard.

Regarding the definition of a game, it is important to recognize bias. What you / I think is a game is frankly irrelevant. But the numbers don't lie.

Watch Dogs did far better factually in every way compared to NMS. So I do not consider the comparison warranted. So I do think it is a poor analogy to compare the two, considering they already are far different genres.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Logorouge on August 30, 2016, 10:31:02 PM
Despite the monstrous hype machine that surrounded this game and the very noisy fall of said machine, I think I might pick this up on sale in a couple of months. Discovering and naming random creatures on random planets sounds fun to me. (Seems you can still do that offline anyway.) Hopefully many patches will have happened at that point to improve the performance/stability of the game.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 30, 2016, 11:20:34 PM

The only way to find a REAL review of the game is to find one written by someone who didn't give enough of a damn to follow any of the hype whatsoever and thus knew nothing going into it, regardless of wether they end up giving a positive or negative review.   I've only seen a couple like that.

The same can be said for any movie, restraunt, or frankly any review ever. The corrupt / bias / whatever term you want to call it goes in every industry. Games are not at all unique in that regard.

Regarding the definition of a game, it is important to recognize bias. What you / I think is a game is frankly irrelevant. But the numbers don't lie.

Watch Dogs did far better factually in every way compared to NMS. So I do not consider the comparison warranted. So I do think it is a poor analogy to compare the two, considering they already are far different genres.

It's not the sort of comparison you're thinking of.

Watch Dogs is more of a conceptual comparison; it has absolutely nothing to do with genre, gameplay style, or anything remotely related to any of that, it only has to do with the fact that most were disappointed by it, AND the fact that it absolutely did not live up to what the E3 trailers made it out to be.   I'm too damn lazy to look for a more hated game, due to not caring enough, yet you and I both know there are tons of other examples of this, yet none of them generate refund rule-breaking because there was no giant fiasco.  It still gets my point across:  These vendors are doing this simply because of the fiasco, yet when other games come around (yet again) that cause anger, what'll they do then?  Refuse?  It should be entertaining.   It'll be at it's MOST entertaining when Star Citizen comes out, if that game goes the way I'm entirely expecting it to.

Quote
Despite the monstrous hype machine that surrounded this game and the very noisy fall of said machine, I think I might pick this up on sale in a couple of months. Discovering and naming random creatures on random planets sounds fun to me. (Seems you can still do that offline anyway.) Hopefully many patches will have happened at that point to improve the performance/stability of the game.

As long as you're actually aware of what you're getting, as in, not having listened to the hype, then yes, it's pretty good on it's own merits.  Though in a way it's a bit close to Starbound in it's earlier days:  A game that clearly should have had more time before release (can probably thank corporate suits for that, in this case), yet one that has tons of potential. 

But yeah, ignore the hype before making a decision.  Really, those that fell for that have only themselves to blame; you'd think by now people would understand what hype really is, what it does, and what it's motivated by.  I have zero sympathy (but plenty of derision) for those that essentially walked into that wall of chainsaws.  AGAIN. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2016, 04:55:11 AM
...disclaimer on the Store page of NMS to warn people that the won't be able to get a refund for any reason except the normal rules (Less than 2 hours of playtime within the first 2 weeks).
Steam has always had a refund policy. Even before the 2/2 rule. I know a lot of people are requesting refunds stating false advertising (E3 trailer/hype contra released game).
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 31, 2016, 04:56:29 AM
Quite frankly, NMS reminds me a lot of Aliens: Colonial Marines and SimCity 5. Both were overhyped, misrepresented and involved blatant lying in their marketing. NMS is no different.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 05:25:38 AM
SimCity 5

argh
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on August 31, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
with everything that's going on I cant help but feel a little bit sympathetic towards hello games considering the massive amount of hype and expectation that's been piled on them.(which is mostly sonys fault from what I hear although I don't think they helped matters much either)
how was a small team like that who's only other games are the Joe danger series which look honestly a bit basic ever going to meet that?.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 05:44:10 PM
with everything that's going on I cant help but feel a little bit sympathetic towards hello games considering the massive amount of hype and expectation that's been piled on them.(which is mostly sonys fault from what I hear although I don't think they helped matters much either)
how was a small team like that who's only other games are the Joe danger series which look honestly a bit basic ever going to meet that?.

They couldn't, simply put.  Which I, at least, knew from the start.  That other people actually believed they'd live up to those impossibilities still baffles me.   Granted, it baffles me EVERY time this happens, but this time was even worse since it's an indie team.

Though, Sony's behavior in all of this REALLY didn't help.   I mean, really, they take a tiny indie team, put them on the biggest pedestal they can find, drown them in expectations.... and that's it?  That's the extent of their involvement?  It seems like they shouldn't have done ANY of that unless they were going to take further steps to help make it work.  But nope!  Corporate suits!   The usual from that sort.

In the end though the truly dumb part is that this'll happen again, and the same idiots will fall for this again, and then complain again, and.... ugh.   What a cycle.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Wingflier on August 31, 2016, 05:59:17 PM
with everything that's going on I cant help but feel a little bit sympathetic towards hello games considering the massive amount of hype and expectation that's been piled on them.(which is mostly sonys fault from what I hear although I don't think they helped matters much either)
how was a small team like that who's only other games are the Joe danger series which look honestly a bit basic ever going to meet that?.
I wouldn't feel too bad for them.

This short video contains a list of blatant promises made over and over again which it seems the developer had no intention of keeping. There's not being able to deliver on your features, and then there's intentional false advertising, and I think the gaming community as a whole agrees that this was the definitely a case of the latter, with some people considering legal action against them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wsFhv_Kz38
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on August 31, 2016, 06:50:51 PM
with everything that's going on I cant help but feel a little bit sympathetic towards hello games considering the massive amount of hype and expectation that's been piled on them.(which is mostly sonys fault from what I hear although I don't think they helped matters much either)
how was a small team like that who's only other games are the Joe danger series which look honestly a bit basic ever going to meet that?.
I wouldn't feel too bad for them.

This short video contains a list of blatant promises made over and over again which it seems the developer had no intention of keeping. There's not being able to deliver on your features, and then there's intentional false advertising, and I think the gaming community as a whole agrees that this was the definitely a case of the latter, with some people considering legal action against them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wsFhv_Kz38

Aye, I'm already aware of that.  As per the usual, I actually don't side with the community on this one.

A couple of reasons:

First of all, Sony shouldn't have let Murray speak AT ALL in the first place, the useless dolts.  They take the lead programmer, an overly excited guy who is VERY clearly not used to the spotlight, and also clearly the sort that loves to talk about his projects, and put HIM on the pedestal?  What?  Did they not even THINK that maybe, MAYBE they should choose a bit more carefully?  They're not dealing with an experienced developer here!  These guys had ONE thing before this:  Joe Danger.   That's IT.   What kind of utter blazing morons would make that decision?

Secondly:  Stuff changes fast during development, and ANYTHING can go wrong.  There's a very high chance that quite a lot of the stuff that was promised was, in fact, in the middle of being actually worked on.... or perhaps even completed... when it was talked about. And other things probably absolutely were intended.  But then either was scrapped later.  Why do I say this?  Because I've DONE IT.  Not on purpose, mind you.  But it was something I found was.... easy to have happen.  This with Starward, of course.  There were a couple of times where I'd say "Well okay, this thing's going in there, yep, gonna be cool!" and then like 3 days later:  "Weeeeelp.  That was a dumb move, shouldn't have said that.  This thing looked like it was really going well, but it isn't working at all, it turns out, it screws up this and this and this bit over here, so.... yeah, gotta cut it.".   And we've seen this very thing during the development of Arcen's games without me there to screw it up.  Remember TLF's RTS battle system?  How that went?  I know I remember that...  That RTS battle system wasn't a "lie", that's for sure.  It was genuinely in development, fully intended to be part of the final product, but in the end, it just plain didn't work, so out it went. EVERY developer goes through this one.  ALL of them. It doesn't matter how good the dev in question is, they're GOING to have this happen sometimes. The difference is, you usually don't have some guy on a podium telling the universe about things like that while they're still in a half-complete state.    Not that your typical idiot thinks of any of this, of course.

When you combine these two things together, you get the effect that happened.  Overly excited developer, clearly passionate about the whole thing (but also not the brightest bulb) in a nervous position that he's NOT ready for, placed there by idiot suits who didn't bother to even remotely think of anything that might make this a bad idea, and allowed to talk about upcoming features that weren't actually finished yet, stuff that was intended but not in a position of being "set in stone", or perhaps WERE considered set in stone, but considered so by a very unexperienced developer, meaning that they judged wrong and had to scrap stuff later anyway.   Something tells me this one probably happened more than a few times.

Which is one thing if you've got a huge, super-experienced 120-man dev team, they can get around that stuff and be better about judging it, but this was a new player in the market.  They shouldn't have been talking about upcoming stuff AT ALL.  Or at the very least, Sony should have put someone else in the spotlight, and REGULATED things.  Told them "Speaking about this is OK.  Speaking about this other bit is NOT at all OK, don't even think about doing it". 

And really, what in the bloody hell did anyone expect?  Freaking miracles?  Because that's what it would have taken for a 12-person team to create what the braindead internet thought they would get.  Have people seriously gotten THAT dumb when it comes to big shiny upcoming new things?  ....why do I even ask that?  Of course they have.

Am I saying that Hello Games isn't at fault at all?  Ye gods, no.   They should have thought the entire project through more... I don't mean "doing specific parts right", I mean "should we do this project AT ALL in this form".   All the loopy crap from Sony should have been a massive screaming red light.... hell, Sony's entire presence should have been.   They should have realized "we're not ready for this, sorry, we're not the ones for this job". I mean, really, did they think of that?  Nope.   But moreso, Sony, who has been in the business for a LONG time, should have seen this themselves.  They all screwed up.  All of them.  But for the reasons already explained, and more that I'll not ramble about here (because it'd end up being 5 pages long) I don't buy into that whole "lies" bit at all.

And as always, I seriously have zero sympathy for those that bought into this and ended up believing that they didn't get what they were promised (and again, what they believed they'd get would have required a giant dev team).  No sympathy at all.   Were it up to me, there wouldn't be ANY refunds.  At all.  Just "Welp, maybe you'll learn something this time" instead, followed by a swat to the head.    I personally have been absolutely fine with the game, but then I actually knew what I was getting, and it turned out I wasn't wrong.

But they wont learn anything.  Just wait'll Star Citizen happens.  That's going to make this look like nothing at all; that game (what little there is of it) is practically made entirely of red flags right now and nobody spots it, because they don't want to.  That's not to say it'll necessarily be genuinely bad.  It could actually be fairly good!   But will it live up to what everyone is so completely freaking sure it will?  Holy crap on a stick, no!  Not even close!  It's going to be a WAY bigger margin than this was....  even a huge dev team wont live up to what is already surrounding THAT mess. 

Not to mention all of the problematic releases that will inevitably happen between now and then....



There, that's my "I haven't had my caffeine yet" rant for the day complete.  More sparks than usual since I had to get up early.  I hope nobody got hurt.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Toranth on September 01, 2016, 04:22:09 AM
Just wait'll Star Citizen happens.  That's going to make this look like nothing at all; that game (what little there is of it) is practically made entirely of red flags right now and nobody spots it, because they don't want to.  That's not to say it'll necessarily be genuinely bad.  It could actually be fairly good!   But will it live up to what everyone is so completely freaking sure it will?  Holy crap on a stick, no!  Not even close!  It's going to be a WAY bigger margin than this was....  even a huge dev team wont live up to what is already surrounding THAT mess. 
I'm already investing in popcorn futures.
There is no way that Star Citizen could live up to the hype, and considering how much money people have poured into it, there are going to be some very upset customers when it doesn't totally change their life.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 01, 2016, 07:06:20 AM
Just wait'll Star Citizen happens.  That's going to make this look like nothing at all; that game (what little there is of it) is practically made entirely of red flags right now and nobody spots it, because they don't want to.  That's not to say it'll necessarily be genuinely bad.  It could actually be fairly good!   But will it live up to what everyone is so completely freaking sure it will?  Holy crap on a stick, no!  Not even close!  It's going to be a WAY bigger margin than this was....  even a huge dev team wont live up to what is already surrounding THAT mess. 
I'm already investing in popcorn futures.
There is no way that Star Citizen could live up to the hype, and considering how much money people have poured into it, there are going to be some very upset customers when it doesn't totally change their life.

Pretty much.

What really gets me though.... and I could rant about this bit for quite some time, longer than I've ranted about NMS.... is the batshit insane prices in their store.  Hundreds of dollars to buy a couple of virtual ships.  I just... what.  Not to mention other behavior from that developer.

Nevermind all the stuff with NMS, or any other screwball incident lately, this is always the one that just gets at me the most.   I mean, doesn't this seem even a BIT shady or weird to anyone?  But people are diving right into it!  It's one thing to pre-order a game and have it come out as something you don't like.   That happens.   But to pre-order AND then spend like 400 on it, to buy things in a game you're not even CLOSE to playing the full version of?  What?

I mean... seriously, what's with this?  I really don't understand how/why they're getting away with that.   I don't care HOW good the game actually ends up being.... this is the bit that bugs me a lot.


Also, yes, it cant even begin to live up to it's hype.  It's WAY beyond what NMS gathered.  Even if the game turns out to be pretty darn good it's STILL going to be met with an army of screaming asshats because it doesn't change the world like they think it's going to.   That game is hype personified, and it's just going to get worse. It's like some sort of hype elemental.  Which is like a fire elemental except much dumber. 

And this whole incident with NMS, or the piles of AAA games that come out crappy, NONE of that is going to teach these people to temper their expectations and research what they're spending their money on.

I just... uuuugh.  It's baffling.  I'm glad nobody I know bought into that game at this early junction, or paid that store anything.  I'd have to throw stuff at them if they did.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 01, 2016, 08:17:56 AM
The Star Citizen thing never made sense to me. Just in any way, shape or form. The prices are utterly crazy, and yet people pay. It boggles my mind.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: chemical_art on September 01, 2016, 08:54:01 AM
The profession of whaling is booming right now.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 01, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
I just checked about Star Citizen because I've never heard about this game before and wanted to find out what you're talkign about. I saw the store. Over 300$. For one ship. I don't even...
How do you justify this? Isn't this p2w in it's worst nature?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 01, 2016, 11:29:48 AM
Ya know what's REALLY sad?

This is the ONLY forum, and I really do mean the ONLY one, where I've mentioned this, and actually gotten responses like the ones you guys just gave.  That "WTF?" response.   Everywhere else?  When I bring this up, people DEFEND it.   Seriously.   And they get FANATICAL about it.  I don't mean defending it by genuine debate, or anything like that.  Even usually nice people get nasty about it.   Just think about that for a moment.  The developer is doing what you see in that store, with a game that's VERY early in development, and people are FANATICALLY DEFENDING IT.  I don't mean just defending the game itself.  I mean they'll ALSO defend the store. 

This even happens at the autism forum I go to.  Which is... not a place I'd expect that to happen.  I remember I brought it up there once, and one day later, wished I hadn't.  If I was a moderator at that forum, I would have shut that topic down.  That's how bad it got.

I mean, people get pretty nutty over games all the time... NMS is mostly "major" because of a general outcry, but lots of other games generate sheer obsession like that before release.  We can all think of tons of examples, I'm sure.  Those games that get people waiting at freaking Gamestop for a midnight release.  I still remember the Diablo 3 one (partly because I have the huge display thing down in my basement) and that was a pretty nutty experience.

But this?  This is a whole new level of weird.  I've *never* seen anything else like this.  Not ever.

Quote
I just checked about Star Citizen because I've never heard about this game before and wanted to find out what you're talkign about. I saw the store. Over 300$. For one ship. I don't even...
How do you justify this? Isn't this p2w in it's worst nature?

You'd never heard about it?  Really?  Frankly you might be lucky then: that means you haven't had to hear any of the shrieking arguments about the game yet.  It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll hear them eventually.  The game's following is seriously HUGE, and very rabid.  And it's still a bazillion years from release.   It's just going to get worse.

But yeah, those prices.  Ridiculous, isn't it?   

I don't actually know what the developer's "justification" for that is.  I'd *love* to hear it, because it's probably the most ridiculous explanation ever, whatever it may be.  I mean, really.  Hundreds for one ship in a video game that isn't even releasing for at least another year or two.

I don't even know if this counts as p2w anymore.  This is like, in a whole other universe.  One sentence I keep repeating to people is this:  Even EA and Activision wouldn't pull THIS crap.  That should be a big, big warning sign right there.  But nobody sees it.   

I've just been non-stop baffled by this whole thing.  It's both horrifying and utterly fascinating to watch at the same time.


But the worst part will be the day of release, whenever that date happens.   All that wild hype that NMS had?  That's nothing compared to what Star Citizen's fans expect from that game. Nothing at all.  It'll be like someone set off some sort of internet nuke.  The expectations for the game are so far into the stratosphere that even if the game really is good, people are going to FLIP THE HELL OUT, because no developer in the world could get that game to do what they expect it to.

Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 01, 2016, 11:54:02 AM
I don't know what tehy are thinkign wqith this but this is kind of class seperation. But instead of the fancy sport car that you show off if you are rich, it is a shiny space ship.

I'm glad I never heard anything from it before, this looks like a really terrible pay to win scam. It has to be pay to win, what else should it be? You cannot except someone to pay 300 $ if the ship has the same strentgh or even worse than any other ship in the game.
If it would look somewhat special, some people pay even for that, but this thing looks not special at all.

Back when I played mabinogi, I bought one of the limited time store pets. It was a big skeleton dragon. The costs were around 17.000 nx which translates 17$ I think. I'm actually not sure anymore, it could've been less. However, that is a hefty sum for a simple pet in a video game.
Back then I was really hooked to the game and more naive, so I payed the price.
(http://nxcache.nexon.net/spotlight/26/00FPF-1cd82ccf-b748-4ebf-b431-9e2e46dcb17c.jpg)
The dragon looked really cool and all but I mainly bought it because it had a special ability. Every time you summon it, it damages all nearby enemies and removes a portion of their armor. This has been proven useful many times. It wasn't actually that much worth to kill strong enemies but it was good to clear a room full of weak enemies quickly. Would I buy it again? Probably not. It was a really cool pet and I would miss it but 17$ is still too much to ask for this.
They also started to give away cool pets later for free, no dragons but other cool stuff like a demon horse.

My point is, when you are at a similiar situation for something you like, you might not think long enough about it simply because you think "I like this game, I play it a lot, so it will be worth to invest.".
I bet the buyers of this think the same, because they like the game and play it  alot they think they get what they pay for.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 01, 2016, 01:07:30 PM
Ya know what's REALLY sad?

This is the ONLY forum, and I really do mean the ONLY one, where I've mentioned this, and actually gotten responses like the ones you guys just gave.  That "WTF?" response.

I've always been WTFing over it. I have a friend who's spent like $1000+ on some of them. I had one person tell me "I should have bough X ship [cost like $1400] because today I could have sold it on eBay [for like $4000]."  And I was just like, "Whhhyyyyy do people dooooo thiiiiisssss?"
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on September 01, 2016, 01:47:36 PM
Ya know what's REALLY sad?

This is the ONLY forum, and I really do mean the ONLY one, where I've mentioned this, and actually gotten responses like the ones you guys just gave.  That "WTF?" response.

I've always been WTFing over it. I have a friend who's spent like $1000+ on some of them. I had one person tell me "I should have bough X ship [cost like $1400] because today I could have sold it on eBay [for like $4000]."  And I was just like, "Whhhyyyyy do people dooooo thiiiiisssss?"
wait....1000 pounds? on freaking digital ships?! your friend must be bloody rich not that I'm remotely poor hell half an hour ago I spent 18 pounds on a meal and I do that pretty regularly every Thursday but that's absurd as hell.
 the developer/ers could cut and run now and they'd be rich if people are giving them absurd amounts of money like this before the game even releases.
I have to admit this is the only place I've heard of stars citizen but I think I'm going to have to satisfy my curiosity now.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 01, 2016, 03:28:48 PM
I can't find anything over $300 at the moment, but it's no joke that there are ships that are god damn expensive.

Most expensive one I can find on the store (a bunch have no price listed). $275
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/rsi-constellation/Constellation-Andromeda
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 01, 2016, 04:08:41 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/rsi-constellation/Constellation-Aquila
$327,25
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 01, 2016, 07:08:38 PM
I see $275 on that one too.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 01, 2016, 07:48:17 PM
Are you sure its dollar? Maybe you use another currency because it states here exactly the price I dictated.
The other theory would be, they change the price according to the region which I wouldn't understand at all for a MMO game. It's not like they have soemthing to ship or anything.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 01, 2016, 07:52:15 PM
It could alter the price based on region...hmm...
Nops, one of my Canadian frands says it shows $275 for him too.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 01, 2016, 08:27:08 PM
It is however based on region. Look at the bottom, you can select the country your coming from. Select Germany and you will see it.

They justify this with "taxes in your region". This is btw the first time I heard this, I never had to pay more than in the USA except in some extreme cases.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 01, 2016, 09:08:52 PM
My point is, when you are at a similiar situation for something you like, you might not think long enough about it simply because you think "I like this game, I play it a lot, so it will be worth to invest.".
I bet the buyers of this think the same, because they like the game and play it  alot they think they get what they pay for.

Actually, the game isn't even close to being out yet.   It's.... early alpha.

This isn't even REMOTELY close to finished.  Nobody actually knows what the finished game is really going to be like, and these ships aren't even done yet.  Notice something on the one you linked to:  "Damage states being mapped".   AKA, even that ship isn't entirely done yet.  It's on sale, though.

And this gets even worse than I thought:  The *base* cost, for this game, is $75.   ......75!  It gets you the game, and what I'm assuming is probably a rather crappy low-level ship.  This, for a game that is rumored to not hit release for AT LEAST two years.  Though you have the option of paying EVEN MORE to get a slightly better starting ship (yay?)

All of this is AFTER the game already generated millions from crowdfunding.  Yet so far BEFORE release.

I just... ugh.  I don't get it.

I really would love to hear their reasons behind the deranged pricing, though.   $75 just for the game is usually a death-sentence for many developers, people get really, really angry if you do that.  But this one?  No, that's the LOWEST price!   Everyone's fine with that, and with $300 ships!

Understanding.... I has none....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: chemical_art on September 01, 2016, 10:26:57 PM
They are either doing some super shady accounting (I am thinking some off shore bank accounts are getting stuffed) or they are simply poorly spending the money on frivolous things. Given the extended timeline and lack of progress despite all that money I can only guess if the game will ever be finished to begin with!

Maybe they will go bankrupt. Now that would be an internet nuke to behold.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 01, 2016, 10:52:57 PM
They are either doing some super shady accounting (I am thinking some off shore bank accounts are getting stuffed) or they are simply poorly spending the money on frivolous things. Given the extended timeline and lack of progress despite all that money I can only guess if the game will ever be finished to begin with!

Maybe they will go bankrupt. Now that would be an internet nuke to behold.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking too.  Where is all of that money going?  There have indeed been a lot of rumors that the developer is nearing the point of going broke.   They've been doing that thing that happens with big games sometimes:  Going REALLY REALLY OVERBOARD on the graphics.  Like, WAY too far.  Which might be part of why it's taking them so freakishly long to accomplish anything.

Or, yes, they could be just making outright shady moves, too.  That's the theory I've been going with, personally.   I mean, spending too much on graphics does make sense, but this is beyond "too much" at this point, for what little progress they've made.  And really, that store.  That just screams "shady" to me.

I have to wonder, just what would happen if they really DID go bankrupt?   I mean, there are people that, as Draco said, have spent over a thousand on this.  Or at least hundreds.  Just imagine the legal nightmare that could result from this, right alongside the internet freakout.  This is the sort of thing that would become legend in the industry, if it happens like that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: chemical_art on September 01, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
Just imagine the legal nightmare that could result from this, right alongside the internet freakout.  This is the sort of thing that would become legend in the industry, if it happens like that.

"Cloud Imperium Games, LLC is an American video game company, founded by Chris Roberts and Ortwin Freyermuth, with offices in Los Angeles, California, Austin, Texas, Wilmslow, Cheshire, England and Frankfurt, Germany." -Wikipedia

Given that it is a corporation it is by default limited in its liability. So it would go through standard bankruptcy hearings where either it is bought out by another company (which it won't) so then it will liquidate all assets.

For the average backer, they will get nothing. Ok, maybe less then a dollar if a class action lawsuit is followed but more likely they get nothing.

I will just buy popcorn in bulk.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 02, 2016, 02:07:36 AM
Ships $345 for me. I'm in Sweden.

Holy hell $300+. I could buy a new radiator for my car for that. A high performance, racing radiator. That's nuts. Who the eff pays that much for a SINGLE FREAKING INTERNET SPACESHIP?! O_o
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: madcow on September 02, 2016, 07:42:42 PM
Total agreement the crazy thing is not only paying that much for an in game item. It's the unreleased item for an unreleased game part, insane!

The devil's advocate side is that the promise of Kickstarter is not that you're buying the ship or item, the genius is they are really selling the dream of what you think the game could be. The ship is the extra incentive they through in.

Having said that, I didn't see or buy into the hype for either star citizen or no man sky. No man sky I could tell would t really have much in the way of gameplay that interests me and I never understood the hype. Star citizen I can at least the game too it and how the concept seems fun, but I never saw how they could practically do it.

Hopefully this will usher in the end of the era of preorders, but I doubt it
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: wwwhhattt on September 03, 2016, 03:21:25 AM
Hopefully this will usher in the end of the era of preorders, but I doubt it
Wasn't Daikatana supposed to have done that?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 03, 2016, 04:10:41 AM
Hopefully this will usher in the end of the era of preorders, but I doubt it
That's unfortunately never going to happen.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 11:06:05 AM
No, but every person burned by a preorder that says "never again" and then actually follows through will eventually add up.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Toranth on September 03, 2016, 11:29:56 AM
No, but every person burned by a preorder that says "never again" and then actually follows through will eventually add up.
(Looks at Civ 6 preorder)
There are people that manage to do that?  Wow.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 12:02:08 PM
I don't pre-order any more. I got severely burned a few times; blanking on what game was the last one, but Spore was huge disappointment and I got a refund (pre that 2 hour/2 week policy) on Dungeons (http://store.steampowered.com/app/57650/) (after being called a troll by an employee (http://forum.kalypsomedia.com/showthread.php?tid=8453&pid=84425#pid84425) on their official forums).
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on September 03, 2016, 12:02:24 PM
No, but every person burned by a preorder that says "never again" and then actually follows through will eventually add up.
(Looks at Civ 6 preorder)
There are people that manage to do that?  Wow.
yeap like for instance my self way back when bio shock  infinite was coming out and I was on the hype train for it and preordered it then I ended up hating the game for various reasons and I never preordered anything ever again.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 12:52:16 PM
So the whole "X% of No Man's Sky audience drop" thing is finally showing some real data (because "concurrent" is a terrible measure).
http://steamspy.com/app/275850#tab-audience
Average and median playtime (in the last two weeks) per player has fallen off by 50%
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: wwwhhattt on September 03, 2016, 10:22:49 PM
No, but every person burned by a preorder that says "never again" and then actually follows through will eventually add up.
But with kids growing up and starting to ask for/buy games themselves, will the number of burned people add up faster than the number of new people starting to play games? This also goes for wondering how people never seem to learn from the last time it happened - for plenty of them this is the first major screwup.

I think it's also a mistake to focus so much on individual example, no matter how spectacular they are. E3 happens every year, and the big companies are advertising constantly - talking about how disastrous NMS's launch has been makes it look separate from all the other hyped games, when it's only difference is size. But then as long as advertising continues we're stuck with people talking endlessly about dull games and ignoring good ones. Clearly what we need to do is: seize control of all AAA games companies; overthrow the government; provide everyone with a basic living wage so Chris & Co. can make weird games about raptors without worrying about all the Darrens complaining about the graphics; live happily ever after.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 03, 2016, 10:32:55 PM
No, but every person burned by a preorder that says "never again" and then actually follows through will eventually add up.
But with kids growing up and starting to ask for/buy games themselves, will the number of burned people add up faster than the number of new people starting to play games? This also goes for wondering how people never seem to learn from the last time it happened - for plenty of them this is the first major screwup.

I think it's also a mistake to focus so much on individual example, no matter how spectacular they are. E3 happens every year, and the big companies are advertising constantly - talking about how disastrous NMS's launch has been makes it look separate from all the other hyped games, when it's only difference is size. But then as long as advertising continues we're stuck with people talking endlessly about dull games and ignoring good ones. Clearly what we need to do is: seize control of all AAA games companies; overthrow the government; provide everyone with a basic living wage so Chris & Co. can make weird games about raptors without worrying about all the Darrens complaining about the graphics; live happily ever after.

The stupid thing is, EVERY single time this happens, most people absolutely will treat it as a separate incident, no matter what it was.  It doesn't matter that the last 20000 AAA games were all big disappointments.  The new disappointment, whatever it is, is still this huge surprise to everyone, and game X, whatever that is at the time, will OF COURSE get things right, because how could it not?!?  So the person pre-orders that.

The cycle of derp begins again.   And again.  And again.   And again.

Right now, "game X" for a lot of people is Star Citizen.  I wonder what it'll be if that one goes boom?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 04, 2016, 12:03:12 AM
Right now, "game X" for a lot of people is Star Citizen.  I wonder what it'll be if that one goes boom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBsm0LzSP0
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 04, 2016, 12:37:03 AM
Aye, that sounds about right.

Probably wont be much left after that, nope....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 04, 2016, 02:09:31 AM
There is a very big difference between pre-ordering and kickstarting something. For me Star Citizen is a 30$ investment to get SQ42 with VR possibility (the rest is bonus ,p) and so far it seems they deliver that.  Albeit horribly out of the timeplans. But I already knew this would happen before I kickstarted. As long as a kickstarter has income it won't be stopping development of it's actual KS vision. And that is how great things, or great failures happen.. with Star Citizen the judgement is yet to be delivered.. but for me, only SQ42 really matters.

But then again, I was one of the original founders, to me the MMO digital sale peddling behemoth it has become is kinda worrying. Worrying in the sense that I am not sure I'd even want to play that since I find the community it has attracted post KS extremely toxic, if however 33% of missions end up as involved as the one they demoed then Star Citizen SQ42 will blow every other space game so far out of the universe that they need to develop new jumpdrives just to get back....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 04, 2016, 02:53:33 AM
Had never heard of SQ42 before... hmm.  Another "I don't get it" sort of game, in my case. 

Not one I'm going to follow; it's SC itself that has the potential for entertaining internet-wide chaos.   Gonna be awhile though, that's for sure, but... it might be interesting to at least see how quickly the insanity of it's fanbase rises.   And how far it goes.  I keep imagining things like a ravenous horde of fire-breathing zombies that ride flying f-bombs into battle, however that might work.  And then they smash together and the universe crashes.

Now I've had too MUCH caffeine, if I'm thinking up stuff like that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on September 04, 2016, 09:42:13 AM
Had never heard of SQ42 before... hmm.  Another "I don't get it" sort of game, in my case. 

You never played Wing Commander 1-4 or Strike Commander? ;P
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 04, 2016, 10:15:25 AM
I've seen them, my brother had those way back when.  Not my sort of thing as gameplay goes, at least back then.  Too much of the talking anyway though.  Lotsa cutscenes if I recall correctly.  Cutscenes & me tend not to get along very well.  With games I tend to just lose interest the moment the game looks like it might get like that.  I miss the days when everything was just told with text boxes and such.  I could just read at my own pace, not wait for people to act it out.  Or just not bother, if I didn't care enough.  Which was most of the time.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2016, 06:14:25 PM
Had never heard of SQ42 before... hmm.  Another "I don't get it" sort of game, in my case. 

You never played Wing Commander 1-4 or Strike Commander? ;P
Yeah, they were pretty clunky and awkward for the most part. Overall pretty good games though.

But as has been proven a billion times over by now:
Just because someone has made good games in the past, does not mean they'll make good games in the future.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 06, 2016, 07:13:50 PM
Reminds me of Mighty No.9. It was created by the original creator of Mega Man, so everyone excepted a true Mega Man game. But they got the same "I want to be new and cool" trash that you can get anywhere. No wonder the people were outrageous about. Seriously, I cannot see anywhere int he game where all the money went they got from Kickstarter.
I think people payed more for the fame of the creator than the actually development process.

Happened also to Peter Molyneux and Godus. This guy made so cool games in the past but Godus was one of his biggest mistakes. Probably the biggest.

Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on September 06, 2016, 08:53:30 PM
I frankly was surprised that people bought into Mighty No. 9, it just screamed "trying to be NEW Mega Man!!!" instead of trying to be like the classic ones.  I ended up finding a game called 20XX on Steam, plays like the old Megaman X games did (instead of the original NES series), except ACTUALLY feeling like them, and looks a lot like them too.  A zillion times better than No. 9 was and it didn't need a massive budget to do it.  I really do wonder where the money goes on ALOT of projects like that, not just Star Citizen.  I mean, seriously, I look at No. 9 and I just cant see where it all went. 

Wheras Star Citizen... they're dumping deeply stupid amounts of money into graphics, that's definitely part of it.  Gotta have every tiny screw or bolt on the interior of a ship be HYPER FREAKING DETAILED, after all!  That's the most important part!   Stuff like that is why I keep thinking that there's a really good chance that the final version of the game isn't actually going to be very good, as gameplay goes.  The focus is just all wrong.  It's all going to be cutscenes and shiny stuff, instead of actually playing well. 

Though, that only explains so much of the money... a TON of it doesn't make sense, as to where it went.  Very shady developer.  That people trust them at this point is bloody baffling. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on September 07, 2016, 12:20:43 AM
I think the real problem with Mighty No. 9 was that the publishing company, without asking the actual developers, created an advertisement that insulted the core audience.

Like, actually directly insulted them. "Anime fans who still live in their parent's basement" direct quote.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Pepisolo on September 07, 2016, 12:34:01 PM
Quote
That people trust them at this point is bloody baffling.

Now, I should disclaimer this with the fact that I haven't been keeping up to date with Star Citizen for a while, so maybe some things have happened that I'm not aware of....but when I used to follow its progress one of the things that those guys seemed to be getting right, was that they were pretty open and seemed to communicate quite well with the community. For such a massive project there seemed to be a lot of interaction with its backers. Then there is the fact that parts of the game are actually available to play -- or test is probably the more appropriate term. There is the Hangar Module, Dogfighting Module, Social Module, and maybe some other modules that have appeared since then. So, even though progress has been slower than expected, you can at least see the pieces coming together. Chris Roberts also has a pretty good record when it comes to delivering products and seems to be saying and doing all the right things. All this together, combined with the massive scope of the project that they're undertaking, has probably helped a lot in terms of them maintaining the trust that they have with their backers.

So, do these guys look dodgy? Not for me. Do they look like they might've been bitten off more than they can chew? Quite possibly, although my last impressions were cautiously optimistic. I also think that hype levels have probably reached the point that the actual game can never meet those expectations, although if it is eventually released I think it'll do a much better job of meeting those expectations than No Man's Sky did -- although it's not really possible to do worse than No Man's Sky did in this regard, so that's not saying much, I guess.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: zespri on November 28, 2016, 12:49:15 AM
So now we have this: http://www.no-mans-sky.com/foundation-update/

Do they think that it will make the game any less... underwhelming?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 28, 2016, 01:04:19 AM
So now we have this: http://www.no-mans-sky.com/foundation-update/

> You can now build shit!
No one cares!  There's no multiplayer to show off your shit to, so what's the point?  I also see nothing in there about addressing the main gameplay loop or the ending, sooo....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 28, 2016, 01:23:57 AM
Actually, they changed ALOT of things.  I tried it tonight, it may as well be a whole new game as far as I'm concerned.

Aside from a giant pile of new content (they call this a SMALL update?  Seriously?) there's the new survival mode.  This is one of the reasons why base-building is in before multiplayer.  Because it helps you not die horribly as the game gets continuously more cruel.  It has a variety of practical uses that you need later in the game (such as an area to grow plants in, among other things).  It's not just a pretty box to jump around in.  Also, you use a portal to travel back and forth to it like in Starbound.

Survival mode is.... brutal.  Utterly brutal.  The core gameplay loop is no longer "pop resource, wander, pop resource", because the game is non-stop trying to murder you.  Everything is deadly.  Everything.  Most players are having a bloody hard time even reaching their damn ship after the game starts.  They get killed by weather, gravity, sentinels (even the basic ones can beat you over the head with your own face now), horrible little poodle monsters, angry plants (I hate those things... so much...), your damn shield falling off for the 103509275th time...  Pirates in space are also outright murderous now, and aside from just being outright stronger, they have new AI.  Old exploits no longer have any effect other than killing you.  And good luck defeating a marked pirate.  So the game has gotten to where a "survival" game really should be.  I mean, those all have repetitive resource gathering... but they also have high difficulty and the universe trying to wreck you.  Now this finally does too (and the lack of it had been my own central complaint).  A lot of "quality of life" improvements too, like a quick-inventory function, and the ability to scan planets from space to see what sorts of resource nodes they actually have on them.  Since everything is so freaking dangerous now, you need to be choosey about where you go.   Also:  the landscape isn't drowning in resources anymore.  Good luck finding the things that keep life support going, among... everything else.  You have to actually explore now, to find what you need.  Carefully, and quickly. 

This is in addition to the ability to buy giant freighters (which you can build inside with a similar interface to the one that the bases use), and a bazillion new items, and.... yeah.  There's ALOT here.  I wasn't expecting any of this.  I was expecting a rather small update with simple little things.  Not a "HEY GUESS WHAT, TIME TO RELEARN THE GAME" followed by lots of angry stabbing.


Apparently next is a "big" update.  My own theory is that this next one might be the one that adds multiplayer, as the stuff that they added this time seems like a great foundation for it (and that's what the update is called, the "foundation" update). 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 28, 2016, 01:40:39 AM
So core loop remains identical, just harder and more grindy. Gotcha.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 28, 2016, 02:08:09 AM
So core loop remains identical, just harder and more grindy. Gotcha.
Looks like, here's one of the more long winded reviews from the 1.1 update:

Quote from: BlueLiquidPlus
No Man's Sky - v1.1 Review

Played Time: 3 Hours

TL;DR : No, 3 hours of painful grinding that lead to pirates and sentinels decimating me and losing everything over and over again.

------- My experience -------
A lot of people have written good and bad reviews, but with the v1.1 update and added survival I decided to take the plunge and go for it. I've spent the last three hours in a rage filled scramble of trying to survive in a hostile environment that just never gets better.

To begin, I ended up starting on a frozen planet... -75C at Night, and -50C during the day... which means I had to spend most of my time below ground scrambling to gather resources from a very unhospitable planet and constantly risk dying of no food. I honestly thought that this was just horrible luck, but it was going to get better once I got off that planet.

My first death was from the cold, but after that I stayed alive by playing it very carefully. Once I got all the materials and headed to my ship I made sure to stockpile extra fuel in the ships bays to ensure I'd be okay for a little bit (This is a mistake). I finally take off and soar through the sky into the blackness of space, and there I see a space station in the distance, some freighters off to the side, and several planets that could not be as bad as the one I was on (Wrong again).

Immediately I get scanned... Pirates. Well I don't have anything on me worth anything, right? Wrong. Pirates show up and decimate me, well okay may be that was just some bad luck.. RNG can be a cruel mistress. Respawn on the space station, I've lost everything in my ship (All that fuel and materials gone). FINE, I'll go to a non-cold world and try it again. I leave the station and move away to be scanned.. Pirates. Dead again. Restart.

I warp away to some Asteroids, cool I can gets some materials, but scanned. Pirates. Apparently my empty hold is worth SO much to them. Dead again. I warp out past the asteroids towards the closest planet that wasn't that frozen hellhole. I'm in orbit, Scanned, Pirates. Seriously? I turn towards the planet and dive towards it, perhaps I can lose them in the atmosphere. I careen towards the beacon on the planet below, and I see a huge clear area nearby and I land. WARNING HOSTILE SENTINELS LIMITED RESOURCES. Okay fine, this can't be that bad.

Sentinel attacks immediately as I chop down a tree, kill it, move 5 feet and another sentinel attacks. Well that's stupid, and another sentinel attacks. Killed it, ran, and another sentinel attacks and I die. Back to my ship, time to leave and forget this place... except... no landing fuel to take off because those pirates stole it all the first time they killed me.

Next 15 minutes is me hunting Plutonium down and sending it to my ship as fast as I can before the sentinels kill me, and finally I get enough, take off and head over to the beacon and land at it. Oh by the way, that 100% fuel you had? 0%! One lift off = total use of fuel. Hit the beacon, get told to head to an encampment 6 minutes away, and got attacked by two more sentinels. Back at the ship, hunting precious plutonium, all of my gear is broken (when you die your gear gets "critically damaged" and has to be repaired... this is your scanner, binoculars, and the Boltcaster (pistol) that I made so I'm down to my mining tool), and that's when I ran out of mining tool energy.

Start punching plants for Carbon to recharge the mining laser... here comes the sentinels... punch the first one down and then the second one shoots me dead. Spawn on my ship to a sentinel scanning me and engaging me.. this was the point where I just said screw it.

The new survival mode might be great, but I can't get past the beginning... you move and your life support system battery starts draining, run and it drains faster. I'm down for a challenge, but this is getting stupid.

Bottom line, I'd love to suggest the game to you, but I can't. I'm going to try again (I'm a glutton for punishment apparently), and perhaps a restart will change my mind (it better let me restart), but right now after three hours I'm too annoyed. It has a cool concept, and the survival mode could be great (less pirates, slower food loss, no more infinite sentinels appearing, and perhaps a more friendly intro system), but right now I'd just stay away.
-----

I know there's plenty of reviews about how you should stay away, pick it up for $10, don't buy it, and a bunch of reviews telling you the opposite. I took the gamble when it was 40% off to see how it was, and I found that it was literally like gargling glass and asking for more.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 28, 2016, 02:53:18 AM
3 hours is NOT enough to judge this one after the changes.  That looks like a review born purely out of frustration (which indicates more that it's not a game that suits that particular player, rather than actual problems; he didn't actually learn enough to even get an idea as to what the game's balance even IS right now). 

Though, honestly, if anyone is expecting non-repeating gameplay from a survival game... they're in the wrong genre entirely.  I still don't get why anyone expects otherwise.  It's like people STILL expect Elite Dangerous out of this game (no.... just no.  Seriously, no).  I mean, just... what.  Survival game = LOTS of resource gathering and management.  That's how it always is.  Those that don't like it need to just go buy blasted Elite already. 

I, personally, haven't found it grindy.  Though, I'm also doing decently well so far (but then, I'm used to hyper-difficult games, and this isn't up to that level) as opposed to dying every 10 seconds with everything taking a million years. Only had one death so far. 80 minutes to accomplish what some others (on planets extremely similar to mine, as I started on a *bad* one) have apparently taken 5+ hours to do.  But then, I'm not playing it like I used to.  I rather suspect that, surprise surprise, people are going into this expecting all of their old tactics to work (AKA, the ones that took no effort) and having their brains spray out their ears at the mere possibility that those tactics no longer work (what a concept THAT is... sigh).  Ah well.  Certainly not my problem, that's for sure.  I got exactly what I wanted out of it, so that works out well enough. 

This is where I'm thankful that it's NOT a multiplayer focused game:  Other people's thoughts on it have no effect on my own experience.  In full multiplayer, that can utterly ruin it (server population destroyed = no gameplay, in games like that, or gameplay with large holes in it due to those bits requiring enough players).  These days I don't bother with multiplayer, really.  Would have to deal with actual humans, who mostly I tend to hate.

That's a whole other (very, very long) rant though, the multiplayer bit.  Like, 20 pages, sort of thing.  I'd rather not totally destroy anyone's sanity with that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 28, 2016, 05:47:07 AM
Yeah, I'll freely admit I don't understand the survival genre at all. It's just...work work work. Then again, I play Project Zomboid, but that at least attempts to emulate real life. As in an "alternate reality" where the zombie apocalypse actually happened. It also takes into account the most important part of survival: Sanity.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mick on November 28, 2016, 07:54:49 AM
I didn't like "Chill" mode in 1.0 because the resources were everywhere and nothing was really dangerous. Survival mode in 1.1 in just stupidly tedious and random. I don't consider having to wait for 20 minutes in a cave for the day/night cycle to switch to be particularly compelling gameplay. I want difficulty in games to be about making hard choices, not determining how much paint you are willing to watch dry before you give up.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 28, 2016, 08:29:36 AM
I didn't like "Chill" mode in 1.0 because the resources were everywhere and nothing was really dangerous. Survival mode in 1.1 in just stupidly tedious and random. I don't consider having to wait for 20 minutes in a cave for the day/night cycle to switch to be particularly compelling gameplay. I want difficulty in games to be about making hard choices, not determining how much paint you are willing to watch dry before you give up.

You don't actually have to do that.

The problem it runs into though is that it's starting off a bit too hard for a lot of players... some are catching on but most don't seem to be seeing the options the game is throwing at them (as with a lot of games of this type, it's not exactly super obvious about it).  I haven't been waiting through night myself (this would be boring).  I can travel through the night on foot, but I make sure to bring shielding shards with (simple craftable things, instant thermal recharge), and I'll go at caves for resources whenever I see one (Iron is plentiful in caves, sentinels are not, and I can grab some carbon while in there too).  Either I can have the thermal thing recharge while in there, or if it's a deep cave, chances are there's another opening further down; can cross UNDER an area that I'd normally need to walk over.   If I get REALLY desperate with the damn "it's too cold" meter I'll dig a hole in some resource blob and sit in it for about a minute to generate heat that way.  Really similar to what I've often done in Minecraft when things went wonky, actually.   As I kept going though I found myself doing this less and less.   Currently where I'm at is that I have nearly everything needed to get off that blasted rock; just need one last journey to a specific spot.  And then I can get the bloody thing flying.  Have yet to die more than the once, though there have been close calls.

The real !!FUN!! will be actually leaving atmosphere.  I've seen that part.  Stuff gets loopy.


Quote
Yeah, I'll freely admit I don't understand the survival genre at all. It's just...work work work. Then again, I play Project Zomboid, but that at least attempts to emulate real life. As in an "alternate reality" where the zombie apocalypse actually happened. It also takes into account the most important part of survival: Sanity.

Ah, yeah, that game.  Always reminds me of Cataclysm:DDA.   Which I haven't played in ages, I suddenly realize. It's probably updated a whole bunch.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: crazyroosterman on November 28, 2016, 11:00:41 AM
I didn't like "Chill" mode in 1.0 because the resources were everywhere and nothing was really dangerous. Survival mode in 1.1 in just stupidly tedious and random. I don't consider having to wait for 20 minutes in a cave for the day/night cycle to switch to be particularly compelling gameplay. I want difficulty in games to be about making hard choices, not determining how much paint you are willing to watch dry before you give up.

You don't actually have to do that.

The problem it runs into though is that it's starting off a bit too hard for a lot of players... some are catching on but most don't seem to be seeing the options the game is throwing at them (as with a lot of games of this type, it's not exactly super obvious about it).  I haven't been waiting through night myself (this would be boring).  I can travel through the night on foot, but I make sure to bring shielding shards with (simple craftable things, instant thermal recharge), and I'll go at caves for resources whenever I see one (Iron is plentiful in caves, sentinels are not, and I can grab some carbon while in there too).  Either I can have the thermal thing recharge while in there, or if it's a deep cave, chances are there's another opening further down; can cross UNDER an area that I'd normally need to walk over.   If I get REALLY desperate with the damn "it's too cold" meter I'll dig a hole in some resource blob and sit in it for about a minute to generate heat that way.  Really similar to what I've often done in Minecraft when things went wonky, actually.   As I kept going though I found myself doing this less and less.   Currently where I'm at is that I have nearly everything needed to get off that blasted rock; just need one last journey to a specific spot.  And then I can get the bloody thing flying.  Have yet to die more than the once, though there have been close calls.

The real !!FUN!! will be actually leaving atmosphere.  I've seen that part.  Stuff gets loopy.


Quote
Yeah, I'll freely admit I don't understand the survival genre at all. It's just...work work work. Then again, I play Project Zomboid, but that at least attempts to emulate real life. As in an "alternate reality" where the zombie apocalypse actually happened. It also takes into account the most important part of survival: Sanity.

Ah, yeah, that game.  Always reminds me of Cataclysm:DDA.   Which I haven't played in ages, I suddenly realize. It's probably updated a whole bunch.
it cant be worse than don't starve in terms information clarity can it? that game literally tells you nothing I've got 52 hours into that game and I still haven't the slightest idea what those dentures I can pick up are meant to do.
which by the way if you haven't played it misery you really should it would be right up your alley.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 28, 2016, 12:15:59 PM
3 hours is NOT enough to judge this one after the changes.  That looks like a review born purely out of frustration (which indicates more that it's not a game that suits that particular player, rather than actual problems; he didn't actually learn enough to even get an idea as to what the game's balance even IS right now).

Uh.
If a game is murdering me for merely existing (which a -75/-50 planet is going to do) then I'm already done.  The game has already decided that I should know what I'm doing and has tossed a problem at me, for which I may have the resources, but not the knowledge to overcome.

Minecraft is a perfect example:
You start early morning, no mobs are spawned.  You go around trying to figure out what you can do, punch some blocks, collect a few resources, try to craft some things, then sun goes down ten minutes later.  Now you're having to fight off mobs and in desperation you punch a hole in the ground and hide while you try to figure out how to craft a sword.

You're guaranteed to not-die for 10 minutes even if you stand still (unless the initial spawn missed land by a couple blocks, which I've seen it do on occasion).

Terraria and Starbound are similar.  Your spawn location is "safe" for a time while the player gets themselves oriented and figures out the controls, harvests some resources and pokes at various mechanics.  There might be some hostile mobs nearbyish, but they're not usually that dangerous. i.e. you're not going to die before you figure out how to fight back.

What I'm seeing of NMS though is a game that wishes you dead and will do anything to make it happen: hug you player.

Like seriously, what's with the pirates going after the guy with an empty hold?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on November 28, 2016, 02:18:40 PM
Sounds like they got stuff done to make the game more interesting and then forgot to balance anything at all for survival mode.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 28, 2016, 02:33:49 PM
Also, 3 hours should definitely be more than sufficient to form an opinion. Remember the "no questions asked" return period is two hours.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mick on November 28, 2016, 02:34:21 PM
Sounds like they got stuff done to make the game more interesting and then forgot to balance anything at all for survival mode.

I think part of it is a middle finger to the players complaining the game was too easy (which was legitimate).

No middle ground apparently.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Logorouge on November 28, 2016, 07:17:28 PM
If a game is murdering me for merely existing  (which a -75/-50 planet is going to do) then I'm already done.
Wouldn't that include most of the survival genre? I don't think Neo Scavenger would be any kinder. (Or Better than Wolves, if you're into Minecraft) :P

[...] I think I might pick this up on sale in a couple of months. Discovering and naming random creatures on random planets sounds fun to me. [...]
And I did! And it was. The end. *credit roll*

I learned two things when I started playing:
1-There's a modding community for this game. So now my exosuit has a sassy voice (the default voice was grating on my ears) and I don't have to "charge" my clicks in the menus. The gen-affecting mods will be fun to mess with later on too.
2-I'm terrible at naming things. There's planets full of animals with stupid names now.

Anyway, so far so good.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 28, 2016, 08:00:38 PM
Also, 3 hours should definitely be more than sufficient to form an opinion. Remember the "no questions asked" return period is two hours.

That bit is Steam's problem, it still isn't enough to form a real review of, well, MOST games these days, honestly.  I dunno about everyone else, but I never, *ever* read reviews that don't have at least 10 hours in a game. The one and ONLY exception is Starward, for obvious reasons (and even then, that's just out of pure curiosity). This all applies to both positive or negative reviews... useless if they're at that low point.  Some games just take too long to really "grasp" to get anything out of them... I can think of so very many like that.  These aren't the old days were every game was as simple as something like the first Megaman.   Which is probably why so many people loathe Steam's refund system.  I mean, think of something like, well, almost any of Arcen's games VS this system.  MOST of the games here take well longer than 2 hours to get a handle on for many players.  AI War, the flagship title, being damn near impossible to grasp in that amount of time. 

That's a whole other rant though.  I usually just advise people to pretend the awful refund system doesn't exist and make sure they're choosing their purchases carefully to begin with.

Quote
Wouldn't that include most of the survival genre? I don't think Neo Scavenger would be any kinder.

Even Minecraft itself without mods technically does it:  Your hunger meter starts melting the moment you start moving.

Also, many roguelikes start an attrition kill process if you're going too slowly (and their concept of "slow" is kinda mean with that). 

But yeah, the survival genre does in fact pretty much ALL do it.  It's not exactly an unheard of feature.   If anything, it's expected.  Much of the time it's usually either A: hunger or B: weather related.  Many games use both.  Most are MUCH nastier than NMS is about it; at least in NMS, you can hop into a small hole or something to give your thermal whatsit a chance to recharge, and you're usually in perfect safety doing this.  Most survival games?  Yeah... good luck with that.  Chances are you'll only make it WORSE somehow.

Quote
I'm terrible at naming things. There's planets full of animals with stupid names now.

Ah, yeah, same here.  I'm used to just pulling names from a thesaurus (this is where all boss names other than Warden and Invader, and many enemy names in Starward come from, heh).  It takes too much effort to come up with a name otherwise.  I absolutely will just name something "Big freaking lump" without that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 28, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Quote
Wouldn't that include most of the survival genre? I don't think Neo Scavenger would be any kinder.

Even Minecraft itself without mods technically does it:  Your hunger meter starts melting the moment you start moving.

The hunger meter is one of the things about Minecraft I don't like. I mean, I'm fine with the concept, there's just implementation details that I grouch over, like the fact that you don't regen health unless you're over 8.5 (9?) shanks, but because of the hidden "saturation" value that acts as a second bar, but which can have a non-zero value while your standard bar isn't full, and those two values don't add together for the regen.  So you can be 92% "full" and still not regenerating health.

Things like that.

Also, hunger can't actually kill you.  It can only take you down to 1/2 heart unless you're on Hard (I consider Minecraft to be generally well balanced on Normal, although the mob diversity could use some help).

Edit:
Hunger is actually a system I want to try and fix/replace, but don't have any solid concepts, unlike how I've been able to tweak other areas of the game.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on November 29, 2016, 12:49:41 AM
The update information looks actually pretty good. I liek the idea of buying freighters that transport stuff for you from other planets. This gives the whoel game an economy, you invest resources (fuel or whatever) in finding planets, "claim" them, build resource extractors there, buy some freighters and let them ship the stuff to your main colony.

However, that you cannot freely create your base is a little... underwhelming. This might not be bad if it works similiar to Subnautica, where you can freely place corridors, rooms and whatever to your base how you like.
But the way how they show it seems more like the Skyrim version of "build your house". You simply buy the next upgrade/room for your house and it gets added to it. You may change what room exactly you want to have at that corner of the house but you are still pretty much limited to your options. And since they have a creative mode, I don't think this is a smart idea. Misery can proof me of course wrong int hat since he owns the game and I don't.

The other thing and let's face it, a too high difficulty kills the mood of playing the game. And no, don't give me the "it's a survival game" bullshit.
Survival game is not the same as harcore game experience. Look at Dark souls. Got advertised as hardcore experioence, everyone sees that it is that, no one complains.
Look at minecraft. It even HAS a mode that says "Hardcore". However, Survival is not the same as "this is so hard you have to fight for every inch to survive".
I could now search for a detailed explanation of the genre but I will just do it on my own. The survial genre fits some basic concepts.
You need something to sustain yourself. This "something" will deplet over time. If you want to refill it, you have to gather something. In most games this is "hunger" and you have to gather "food" to refill it. It could also be energy (like in Fortresscraft Evolved and I think in NMS as well).
Gathering the resource you need should not be a simple task but also not impossible. You don't know where said resource is at the start, you have to search it. It may take longer or shorter depending on how good you are at searching or how far away it is hidden.
There might be additional dangers, enemies for example or natural dangers, fire, lightning storms, stuff like that. Might also be traps or anything like that.
You have or have not an end goal. In order to reach it you have to live as long as possible, therefor survive a slong as possible.

Now, I believe that NMS has all that but the point is, the basic concepts do not state that the game has to murder you at every corner. It is rather that you MAY die at every corner but the game DOES NOT do so. While NMS does as teh review stated. And even you said yourself so, Misery, that the game is brutally hard, you even told it in the screenshot I saw that you died right at the start. This shouldn't happen. Being a hard game is great and all but a game shoudl also be FAIR. See Dark Souls again. The game is brutal. Teh game is terrifying (psychologically speaking) but it is also FAIR. You have a chance to beat all the bosses.
Making it POSSIBLE to surive is not the same as making the game FAIR. We could now try to argue what is fair but let's keep this short. In my opinion fair means, when every player get's the same chance of experiencing the game. Equal chances for everyone. That is not the case with this game it seems. And no matter how you want to put it, players get murdered for things that shouldn't murder them. liek pirates stalking a specific player endlessy despite him having no resources at all.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 29, 2016, 01:00:45 AM
Making it POSSIBLE to surive is not the same as making the game FAIR. We could now try to argue what is fair but let's keep this short. In my opinion fair means, when every player get's the same chance of experiencing the game. Equal chances for everyone. That is not the case with this game it seems. And no matter how you want to put it, players get murdered for things that shouldn't murder them. liek pirates stalking a specific player endlessy despite him having no resources at all.

I'd boil fair down to an atomic decision made when danger presents itself:

"If I die now, what am I going to lose?"
If the answer is ever "nothing" then the game is not fair.  I've had a fair few deaths in Minecraft where I wasn't really loosing anything (building a giant building, accidentally fall off the roof, and I collect up all my dropped items) but it wasn't a combat or other stressful situation, I never made the choice to die vs. staying alive.  There was no "shit shit shit hug hug hug, if I die now, I'm going to lose all my cargo! This took me hours to collect!" moment.

What I'm seeing in the reviews of the 1.1 patch is people dying to avoid problems.  "If I die to these pirates, I lose nothing and respawn in a better spot."  "If I die of exposure, at least I'll respawn with full hunger and can come back for the one steak I have left."  "If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 29, 2016, 01:56:07 AM
The update information looks actually pretty good. I liek the idea of buying freighters that transport stuff for you from other planets. This gives the whoel game an economy, you invest resources (fuel or whatever) in finding planets, "claim" them, build resource extractors there, buy some freighters and let them ship the stuff to your main colony.

However, that you cannot freely create your base is a little... underwhelming. This might not be bad if it works similiar to Subnautica, where you can freely place corridors, rooms and whatever to your base how you like.
But the way how they show it seems more like the Skyrim version of "build your house". You simply buy the next upgrade/room for your house and it gets added to it. You may change what room exactly you want to have at that corner of the house but you are still pretty much limited to your options. And since they have a creative mode, I don't think this is a smart idea. Misery can proof me of course wrong int hat since he owns the game and I don't.

The other thing and let's face it, a too high difficulty kills the mood of playing the game. And no, don't give me the "it's a survival game" bullshit.
Survival game is not the same as harcore game experience. Look at Dark souls. Got advertised as hardcore experioence, everyone sees that it is that, no one complains.
Look at minecraft. It even HAS a mode that says "Hardcore". However, Survival is not the same as "this is so hard you have to fight for every inch to survive".
I could now search for a detailed explanation of the genre but I will just do it on my own. The survial genre fits some basic concepts.
You need something to sustain yourself. This "something" will deplet over time. If you want to refill it, you have to gather something. In most games this is "hunger" and you have to gather "food" to refill it. It could also be energy (like in Fortresscraft Evolved and I think in NMS as well).
Gathering the resource you need should not be a simple task but also not impossible. You don't know where said resource is at the start, you have to search it. It may take longer or shorter depending on how good you are at searching or how far away it is hidden.
There might be additional dangers, enemies for example or natural dangers, fire, lightning storms, stuff like that. Might also be traps or anything like that.
You have or have not an end goal. In order to reach it you have to live as long as possible, therefor survive a slong as possible.

Now, I believe that NMS has all that but the point is, the basic concepts do not state that the game has to murder you at every corner. It is rather that you MAY die at every corner but the game DOES NOT do so. While NMS does as teh review stated. And even you said yourself so, Misery, that the game is brutally hard, you even told it in the screenshot I saw that you died right at the start. This shouldn't happen. Being a hard game is great and all but a game shoudl also be FAIR. See Dark Souls again. The game is brutal. Teh game is terrifying (psychologically speaking) but it is also FAIR. You have a chance to beat all the bosses.
Making it POSSIBLE to surive is not the same as making the game FAIR. We could now try to argue what is fair but let's keep this short. In my opinion fair means, when every player get's the same chance of experiencing the game. Equal chances for everyone. That is not the case with this game it seems. And no matter how you want to put it, players get murdered for things that shouldn't murder them. liek pirates stalking a specific player endlessy despite him having no resources at all.

Hmm, to answer various parts (I'm too lazy to split up the quote):

Base creation:  I haven't done it yet.  Though, it's also not really my focus in games that allow it, which works well as I'm very bad at constructing things that actually make sense.  In Minecraft for example, a "house" made by me usually ends up as a distorted, twisted mess.  It functions, sort of, but it sure doesn't look like it should.  In Starbound I don't even bother, I just find a pre-constructed building on the surface and snatch it.  If I need more room for stuff, I just drill holes in the floor and stuff boxes into them.   In NMS, it's likely to be awhile before I start with the base-building.  I first must complete my quest to find the freaking zinc.  However, it's still an attractive prospect due to it's practical use.  If it lets me grow the accursed zinc plants, it's a good thing.   From most of what I hear from other players, the base creation mechanics overall are pretty nice.  But it's certainly not block-based as in "sandbox" games like Minecraft (where terrain building/deforming/destroying is half of the game; in this it's more of a side thing).

High difficulty kills the mood:  Feh, this one is really subjective.  Some players don't like this sort of thing because it ruins immersion or whatever.  In my case, "immersion" is a throw-away concept that gets ignored.  Interesting though the landscape in games like this may be, it's mostly just pretty pixels to look at. Which has some decent value, but it's more of an "Oh, that's cool" sort of thing.  I, and many others who requested (and ended up enjoying) this new mode, get the most out of a game like this when the difficulty is high.   Even with Minecraft, this is the case:  I often play it with mods that dramatically increase the difficulty.  Normal skeletons aren't very interesting... mildly annoying at best.  But they sure get more interesting when they can move at high speeds, hit like a freight train, fire twice as often, and go into "crazed axe murderer" mode if you get too close (and axes can break shields).  For me, that's when things get fun.  It's the same for the main genres I play, bullet-hell and roguelikes.  Or both at once.   With easier games, my attention wanders too much because there isn't anything to focus it on.   The AMOUNT of difficulty is also very subjective.  Dark Souls, for example.  I know people that wouldn't touch it with a 100-foot pole because "It's stupidly hard, how is that any fun?".   I, personally, think it's too easy; it's like the first Castlevania, in that once you've learned an enemy's patterns, they no longer present a threat.  The earlier games in the series were the same way, and I got bored with them fast.   Player reactions to that entire series vary wildly between those two extremes.   Even with NMS, and the new mode, there are those that think it's STILL not hard enough.

Dying at the start shouldn't happen:  Lots of games do this.  Bullet hells and roguelikes are BUILT on it; they will murder the funky hell out of the player way harder than this one does, and it's as if the designers not only know this will happen but ENJOY the fact, and so the cruelty increases.   This, too, is subjective though, to the skill of the player.  Again, Dark Souls:  There are many who will NEVER CLEAR THE TUTORIAL ZONE.  I know a couple of people like that.  They simply cannot get ANYWHERE in it.  Even with a game like Isaac, this does happen... and Isaac isn't very hard.  This is one of the design issues that all developers will face, sooner or later:  You cannot create a game that has the right difficulty for everyone. It's impossible.  Trying to do so is an exercise in stupid.  I can say from my own experiences with Starward that is it frankly a bloody annoying process.

The game isn't fair:  It is, actually, in a technical sense.  I have yet to encounter a "how the hell was I supposed to deal with that?" situation.  And as I've said often when referring to Starward's design, that's basically the cardinal sin for me, if a game pulls that (meaning I wouldn't exactly be so pleased if NMS genuinely did it).  With Starward, if a situation that causes that is found, I change it ASAP.   With NMS now, one example of people saying it's not fair is Thamium:  The element needed to power your life support systems (well, there are other ways, but this is the simplest).  People complain that "they cant find any!" on basically any planet.  I have discovered this to be untrue.  The stuff isn't exactly covering the landscape, but... I've still ended up with a big surplus of it, and as I know how to go about searching for it (with or without the scanner) I wont be running out anytime soon.  The difference between my approach and theirs though is that I simply KEPT GOING until I learned how to really get at the stuff easily.  The same goes for basically everything that isn't zinc.  But I'll figure out the damn zinc sooner or later.   People have the unfortunate tendency to give up on stuff really easily... how can they know if something is fair or not when they didn't TRY long enough to even fully understand what was going on?   Same for the mechanic of dealing with the weather.  People complain about a lack of caves in some areas.  But one thing that EVERY world has (because it's necessary) is resource nodes.  Big lumpy blobs of some element that you get at by actually digging into them.  Want a spot to recharge your thermal thingie?  Just dig a hole in it, and walk in there and stand for a short time.  It may be simple shelter, but it's still shelter.   The problem that players encounter though is that like many high-difficulty games, NMS doesn't explain itself very well.   I suspect that this is actually because the previous version was *just* easy... it didn't really need to explain all that much of advanced techniques because those were only necessary on the occaisional super-dangerous world.  Players didn't need to learn those things, so they enter the new mode without them.  This is similar to how roguelikes approach things (where they are happy to tear you to shreds without teaching you a freaking thing), but people don't expect that utter lack of explanation in a game like this.   That all being said... the normal mode still exists for those that want it.   I do, however, think that one more mode should be added, one that's between the two extremes.   I cant speak of pirates yet as I have not dealt with them in this mode.  I'll be expecting them though; I'll carry my blasted resources into space as much as I want as I'm stubborn like that, so I rather expect they'll attack more unpleasantly than they do for some players.  It'll get interesting. 


Quote
"If I die to these pirates, I lose nothing and respawn in a better spot." 

This is entirely untrue.  You lose some stuff if you die.   Been there, done that, with the one death I did have (bye bye, Thamium and Plutonium).   I suspect that those players that are doing as you say are actually just sending items back to the ship..... which only works if the ship actually has space for them (and throughout most of the game, it wont).   Even Minecraft can do this, without mods (Ender Chests, which have massively grown in power with the new Shulker Chests.  Which can be shoved into the Ender Chests.  You could put 30 inventories worth of items into an Ender Chest and simply leap into a pit of lava to "warp" home quickly.  Some players do this.  With Minecraft's low difficulty, these things aren't exactly hyper difficult to get).   The derpy part with NMS (and I don't like this bit) is that the rule changes when you're in space.  I don't understand why that is.  Games do this bit sometimes, that rule change, and it always bugs me.

That being said, this one is still actually a very weak point.  MOST games, and I really do mean most of them, do not penalize the player for dying.  Even the basic concept of "lives" is gone, these days.  Some of them don't even have the guts to PUSH THE PLAYER BACK A BIT.  They cant even do THAT.  You simply respawn WHERE YOU WERE.  God forbid we actually have the player feel like a failure, they might not buy the next 20 sequels.   Now THAT is ridiculous.  Even if NMS had no loss of items... what you DO lose is all the progress towards your destination (and this often means a very significant travel time that you must now do again).  It's the same with Minecraft... I often don't worry too much about lost items, because items are bloody everywhere, and chances are I've got a squillion backups even of armor back at base.  The reaction I have if I die stupidly somewhere is "Uuuuuuuugh I have to walk aaaalllllll that way again".  I get a much worse version of this reaction if I die in Starbound, where the trek back is *really* long in most cases.  But most games don't even do that.  Devs are too afraid of making the player feel like failures, so.... most of the time, the player cannot REALLY lose.   Some games even go so far as to give you a BOOST if you die in the same spot more than a couple of times. 


Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 29, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.

Minecraft's "bad" starts are not ones that instantly kill you.  That is: it is impossible for your initial spawn to be inside lava (as well as surface lava being pretty darn rare).  NMS seems to take the approach that your starting plant must be in some way hostile.  No simple grassy area for you, player, nope, have fun freezing to death/incinerating/melting/being poisoned/suffocating."  Which is dumb.

It's not that "sometimes proc gen means a bad start" (because I'll freely admit that it does) but that NMS seems to bias all starts as "bad" in some way.  There's a difference between randomly painful and intentional murder.  Minecraft is the former, NMS is the latter.

Which is fine for a certain group of players, but not for the type of audience that NMS has or appears to want.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 30, 2016, 03:44:56 AM
Quote
"If I just delete my game, maybe my starting world won't be on fire in a pit of acid."

This happens in other games.  Even in Minecraft.... even I've done this.   Why?  Because starting on a tiny, deserted island with one bloody tree on it is more than a bit obnoxious; that one sucks so much that even the monsters don't want to show up there half the time.  Same with starting in a hideous lumpy pile of jagged rocks that stretch in all directions, making travel take 10 billion years.  Or a forest that stretches on for a thousand miles (even more irritating to navigate).  When you're dealing with procedural worlds.... sometimes, you get a pile of suck when you start.   The one game I've seen that avoids this is Terraria, because it's not ENTIRELY procedural.  For example, you will *always* start in a grassy zone with trees.  This will *always* be bordered by the corrupted zone.  The Jungle as well as the fortress will *always* only appear beyond the corrupted zones.  Oceans will *always* be only on the very edge of the world.  You get the idea.  That's the one and only way to remove this problem from a game in this sort of genre, and many devs don't like the idea of doing this.

Minecraft's "bad" starts are not ones that instantly kill you.  That is: it is impossible for your initial spawn to be inside lava (as well as surface lava being pretty darn rare).  NMS seems to take the approach that your starting plant must be in some way hostile.  No simple grassy area for you, player, nope, have fun freezing to death/incinerating/melting/being poisoned/suffocating."  Which is dumb.

It's not that "sometimes proc gen means a bad start" (because I'll freely admit that it does) but that NMS seems to bias all starts as "bad" in some way.  There's a difference between randomly painful and intentional murder.  Minecraft is the former, NMS is the latter.

Which is fine for a certain group of players, but not for the type of audience that NMS has or appears to want.

Actually, it IS what they wanted.  That's the entire point.  That's why survival mode (which is what this is) exists whatsoever: because it was requested over and over and over. 

Minecraft, that comparison doesn't actually work.  The reason it doesn't kill you with a bad spawn is because it's freaking Minecraft.  AT ITS HARDEST the game is super easy.  Hell, having seen all the content in the game a million times over, there's one, and ONLY one thing in the game I consider genuinely dangerous, and it's the Wither.  And that's entirely because it's *very* badly designed and implemented (no, seriously, it's a freaking disaster).

For survival mode in NMS, that specific group of players you mention is, in fact, EXACTLY who it was made for.  Some of us genuinely wanted a high-difficulty survival challenge.  As in, where it's challenging to simply not be dead.   I dunno about everyone else, but that's what "survival challenge" means to me.

The original game mode still exists for those who DONT want that.  I'm told there have been some changes to that too (supposedly making it a bit more challenging?) but I cant confirm those as it's not something I care about now that the other mode is there, so I haven't bothered with it.

Besides, the sorts of starts you mention do *not* guarantee the player's death.  They guarantee that the player will have to actually think about what they're doing and understand the game in order to not die.  I still haven't encountered a genuinely unfair situation in the game yet, and I started on a real turdball of a planet.  No zinc anywhere nearby, Heridium is a million billion miles away, super cold temperature (which is WORSE than toxic/radioactive, because the effect doubles at night, and it's harder to recover from), stupid bitey plant things are bloody everywhere, and the landscape is very lumpy and difficult to get around.  And of course the ever-present sentinels.  I still haven't died again though (and the first time was really my own fault... there were things I COULD have done to avoid it; I simply didn't do those things).

And it's the norm for a survival game that your first area be just as hostile as everything else.  Note, I don't actually count Minecraft as a survival game.  I divide them up into two sets:  There's stuff like Minecraft, where it's more about building and you typically aren't worrying about true "survival" elements... I call those "sandbox" games most of the time, as long as I'm not getting my terms all tangled...  and then there's games like Don't Starve, which is more of an *actual* survival game to me, where absolutely bloody everything tries to make sure you die horribly, and the entire point of the game is not to.   There's a reason why the new NMS mode is called "survival" mode instead of just "hard" or whatever.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on November 30, 2016, 04:02:24 AM
Sounds to me like NMS needs something inbetween "I'm dead within a minute, and if I'm not I'm dead as soon as I leave the atmosphere" and "I've been playing for 20 hours without so much as a challenge and by god I'm bored oh god please help!"
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mick on November 30, 2016, 07:34:27 AM
If there are no shelters on the starting planet along the way to your ship I suppose you just have to git gud harder or something. So balanced.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 30, 2016, 07:52:40 AM
Sounds to me like NMS needs something inbetween "I'm dead within a minute, and if I'm not I'm dead as soon as I leave the atmosphere" and "I've been playing for 20 hours without so much as a challenge and by god I'm bored oh god please help!"

Definitely.

My experience so far has been very different overall than with the previous version.   Previous version, it really was mostly about roaming and looking at stuff... and that was neat for awhile, I enjoyed it well enough, but I didn't have to think all that hard.

The new mode, though, is right on my level, and my time with it so far has been INTERESTING.   As it is, I got to the space station finally.  I have a surplus of the important resources (well, the ones that are important at this stage of the game).   I never had any "lucky find" moments, nothing like that.  Things were just as sparse throughout that whole wacky adventure.  The difference was that I started coming up with more and more techniques to squeeze additional use out of what I DID have, and prevent unnecessary wasting of things.  This is the sort of idea I want out of games I classify as "survival" games.  I expect to have to do these very things.  I also learned how to better deal with the accursed sentinels.  And most importantly (for my limited patience) learned how to get set up for mining/gathering at night without needing a cave.   The trip to get the bloody Heridium seemed like it was going to be A: impossible, and B: drain all of my resources, but.... nah.  I didn't die, and I got piles of things that I both could use right then and also that I knew I would be wanting later.


Of course, that's just me.  I'm used to games at the level of difficulty where this mode is.  A lot of people ARENT.  They *really* need a mode in between the two extremes.  This game is definitely at it's most enjoyable when you're playing it at a level that actually works with your own ability.   Unless of course you really are just there for the "chilled" experience, then it doesn't matter, Normal mode will do.  But for those that wanted more of a "game" out of it.... that's what this mode does, BUT, it's gone too far for many.   It's the sort of thing where I often would tell people "look at tutorial videos if you're having trouble".   Which.... yeah.   Definitely up there in difficulty, if THAT is the first bit of advice I come up with.  But even with all the procedural generation it never had actual unfair moments.... even in the barren wasteland (had to deal with a LONG section that was almost entirely flat, which in this mode is a Very Bad Thing, yet I had to bloody well cross it anyway... twice).  But figuring out how to use all the stuff around me was.... not easy.  I can say for certain that it is absolutely going to FEEL bloody impossible to some players.


That being said, the idea that the game ALWAYS starts you out on a hazardous nightmare world, well, it turns out that's not actually true.  Watched someone start this mode earlier.... and get a happy sunshine world (complete with small idiotic-looking bunny things).  Not that the idea of " just restart a lot" is a true solution of course.... one way or another I think it really just is going to need another variation of this mode.  But it's something.



Also, pirates:  nothing bad happened.   Though, I was REALLY careful about exactly WHAT I was carrying on my ship.  They may be more likely to attack, but they still don't ALWAYS attack.  They must still be pulled by something.   And I was in the "most likely combat zone" sort of place too, when I left the atmosphere, being that there was a huge fleet of cargo ships there (much higher chance of pirates around those).

I'll probably actually seek some pirates out the next time I fire the game up, just to see how that goes.  The stuff on the planet was enjoyable, but I have nothing to judge the current space combat on.


Quote
If there are no shelters on the starting planet along the way to your ship I suppose you just have to git gud harder or something. So balanced.

Well... yes, actually.   Honestly, it's not that different from learning any other survival game (which arguably is a problem with the genre entirely?). You learn the tricks of the trade, or the seemingly uninhabitable wasteland kills you.  In *every* real survival game I've played (and this goes for a lot of roguelikes too, as they very often kill you with "barren" areas as well, or worse) the whole "I'm totally out of stuff and this entire area is made of death and pain" thing happens in every single one of them when I'm learning the game in question.  Which is probably why I'm not exactly bothered by it in this one, because I've done this in games a few thousand times by now.

In this, when I started, "flat" areas with no caves/cover seemed impossible.  Now.... yeah, I know how to deal with them, and I DONT need to go into them with a squillionty resources first (actually I teleported half my stuff back to the ship before crossing a section like that, since I was sure it'd kill me; I figured that one way or another, I'd have to deal with it as I went along).  But it wasn't THAT bloody hard to figure out.

One issue is that the game rather makes you think that caves or buildings are the ONLY way to "shelter" yourself.   They aren't.   It also makes you think that you MUST have "shelter" to recharge your thermal unit.  There is another way, and it's not that hard to do (just like there are TWO, not one, ways to refuel your life support system even early on, but most players don't spot the second one).  The game makes you really obsess over the elements of Thamium and Plutonium... it DOESNT help you to understand what all of the others can do for you even before you've gotten your ship to function.

If they're going to keep the difficulty of the mode this high, it almost needs to explain its mechanics in a bit more depth.   Well, a lot more depth.  It's one of those situations where many players are dying.... when salvation might be RIGHT in front of them, but they're absolutely not spotting it because they don't know how it works. It didn't teach them, and they had no reason to learn it on their own before.  The game definitely has that issue.    And since the previous mode is just too freaking easy, even some players that played it ALOT may not spot these things that are now needed.



I'm going to be interested to see what happens next with this.   Not so much from my own point of view, but I mean wether or not they push forth any updates or whatever that do anything to alter the difficulty a bit, and how exactly they go about that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mick on November 30, 2016, 08:29:44 AM
I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me the survival mode in NMS isn't shit.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on November 30, 2016, 09:08:15 AM
I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me the survival mode in NMS isn't shit.

*shrugs*

Not my problem.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on November 30, 2016, 12:54:37 PM
This post and then I'm Done Forever with this thread:

Don't name it Survival, name it Hardcore.

This game got too much press, released too early, this patch does nothing substantial to fix the problems it has.  The game is still empty, the game is still grindy, and the game still lacks advertised features.

Sure, the rating has risen from 10% positive to 25% positive, but I still don't see a reason to pay $10 for this game, much less $60.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on November 30, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
I'd pay $10 for it, Its not the worst thing I'd have gotten for that much. Maybe $15. I'm certainly not paying $30+ for it however, not in its current state. And the online appears to actually be relevant to a degree, so its not really worth finding...other copies.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 01, 2016, 06:57:33 AM
This post and then I'm Done Forever with this thread:

Don't name it Survival, name it Hardcore.

This game got too much press, released too early, this patch does nothing substantial to fix the problems it has.  The game is still empty, the game is still grindy, and the game still lacks advertised features.

Sure, the rating has risen from 10% positive to 25% positive, but I still don't see a reason to pay $10 for this game, much less $60.

Frankly I'm surprised you weren't Done Forever with it quite some time ago.   The lack of interest is very clear, and your decision on the game was clearly formed LONG ago.... why even take part in this from the start?  I have a hard time believing that anyone on this forum would REALLY engage in the classic internet behavior of "hate on something I haven't tried just to hate on it because others do", thus I am at a loss as to the point.

All this thread is, mostly, is me describing my genuine impressions and experience with it:  And keep in mind I'm the very rare sort that DID NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE TO BEGIN WITH. I didn't even listen to it, due to not giving a fart about a game that was a freaking year away or more.  Frankly, nobody should have listened, just like with any other not-yet-released game.  So I'm able to simply look at it for what it IS, instead of for what it ISNT.  And then I give my honest thoughts on the matter.

If you don't agree with my thoughts on the matter, that's fine, I quite frankly EXPECT that most people wont agree with my thoughts about MOST games, but specifically sitting here JUST to poke holes in my ideas about the game seems like a bloody waste of time (particularly as you have not played it).   I'm aware I myself am typically negative as hell, but even I generally don't debate a game too much if I haven't already played it enough (thus, the Gungeon thread, which I DID play... and even then, I still took Wingflier's thoughts on it into regard, and kept up with it, it eventually did grow on me). 

And you, specifically, don't have the negativity I do.  Nobody else on this forum really does (that I can remember, or that I've actually spotted).  So.... why?

That's a genuine question, mind you (provided you see this).  As I've often said, I don't understand social crap half the time (IRL, I barely even talk) so stuff like this confuses me.  Maybe the answer is in my face, heck if I know...   Sure wouldn't be the first time.   

Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on December 01, 2016, 11:26:25 AM
Fine. Make me reply again.

Two things:
1) I want to know why people like things, because there's obviously something I'm missing
2) I'm bored
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 01, 2016, 11:40:42 AM
Fine. Make me reply again.

Two things:
1) I want to know why people like things, because there's obviously something I'm missing
2) I'm bored

Ah, okay, that makes more sense then.

I tend to have those same two reasons often, hah.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on December 01, 2016, 10:19:38 PM
I think the reason so many people *CARE* about the game and thus we have a 13 page topic, is that deep down they wish this were an actual fun game (and not just a pointless exploration sandbox) with actual production values and tons of cash attached, because they want to play a game like it ^^ But they also hope NMS might turn around, only to be disappointed in the end.

I think there is still a market for a game like NMS just less hyped and more developed. With better source art for the procedural gen, with better planet algo, with better ship algo, with better anything and everything. In essence, NMS is really only a show-of-concept...  and developers are now scared to follow it through. Because NMS fell primarily over its hype. Had they been honest up-front in how limited this sandbox is....

But modesty doesn't move a ton of copies.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 01, 2016, 11:29:45 PM
I think the reason so many people *CARE* about the game and thus we have a 13 page topic, is that deep down they wish this were an actual fun game (and not just a pointless exploration sandbox) with actual production values and tons of cash attached, because they want to play a game like it ^^

Most of the posts here that drive this are from me, and frankly I'm not someone that gives a fart about production values or any of that crap.   I do not and never have understood WHY people obsess so much about that.  I grew up with games on the ancient 2600 and NES, and tend to consider things like that as being dramatically better than many (nearly all) major AAA games today.  That's not an exaggeration, believe it or not.

As it is, it's not a matter of "wishing" for those things in my case... the game is doing a good job at the things I've mentioned.  Previous versions of the game were too bloody easy, and nobody needed to explore the game's additional mechanics (though I did it anyway, in case it was necessary to know later on, which turned out to be the case), or most of the crafting system.  With this update, that has changed.   This is already a "game"; exploration was the focus before the update, NOT DYING is the focus AFTER the update if the game is played in Survival mode.   I always get the feeling that when people say it isn't, particularly after the update, what they ACTUALLY mean (or at least partially mean) is "it doesn't have cutscenes or story". Apparently that's what makes a "game" these days. I facedesk, which is my usual response to people rambling about those things in games.  NOT having those things is, honestly, my preference, and makes me more likely to pick up a given game.  I usually avoid games that have either of those two things.  Don't want.  Exceptions are very, very rare.

Production values, on the other hand, usually just make me suspicious.  If a developer has concentrated too hard on graphics, chances are that A: it'll have cutscenes, and B: the actual gameplay will suffer (and be way too easy, because God forbid the player not reach the end of the all-important STORY, they might not buy the next 80 sequels if that happens).  The only AAA game I've bought in years is Overwatch.  Multiplayer competitive games CANT be "too easy" because the difficulty is created by your opponents.   If there's been another AAA purchase I've made, I've forgotten about it.  Wait, no, there was Diablo 3, though I didn't stick with that for all that long as my arm kept acting up (too much mouse).  Suddenly occurs to me that I could give that and PoE another go finally.... hmm.  I just might do that.

And if people STILL don't like it overall... they can go join the Biggest Hype Train Ever, that of Star Citizen, a hype train SO freaking huge that the UNFINISHED game (where MILLIONS have been spent yet the game isn't even remotely close to BEING remotely close to finished) has ENTIRE CONVENTIONS RELATED TO IT.  Frankly, I'm expecting a violently explosive failure of the most epic proportions the industry has ever seen; the goals of the game are just WAY too lofty, and the developer is way too shady.  I'll be watching that one upon it's release.  With popcorn.  And a blast shield.  But we'll see what happens.  Though I've no intention of touching that one even if it's a masterpiece... it's an MMO, after all.  Screw that genre with a fork.

Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on December 02, 2016, 01:11:58 AM
Though I've no intention of touching that one even if it's a masterpiece... it's an MMO, after all.  Screw that genre with a fork.

A friend pressured me into buying the $20 "get the game" edition.
Ages upon ages ago, before it got stupid.  Questionable, but not stupid.

I think the reason so many people *CARE* about the game and thus we have a 13 page topic, is that deep down they wish this were an actual fun game (and not just a pointless exploration sandbox)

Actual game: yes.
Production: meh.

Currently it looks like it has production but no game.  That is: lots of shiny assets, but no mechanics.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 02, 2016, 01:36:37 AM
Though I've no intention of touching that one even if it's a masterpiece... it's an MMO, after all.  Screw that genre with a fork.

A friend pressured me into buying the $20 "get the game" edition.
Ages upon ages ago, before it got stupid.  Questionable, but not stupid.


Someone I know tried to do the same thing.  I ranted at him for 20 minutes until he agreed to never mention it again.

If you've played it, is there actually anything to it?  As in, any good whatsoever?  What little I've seen of the game doesn't exactly fill me with a desire to have much more of a detailed look at it, but I don't have enough info to really judge it regardless.

Granted it only matters so much... it's still a freaking MMO.   There was a time when I didn't hate that genre... ah, those were the days.  And then Warcraft happened.  Ugh.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on December 02, 2016, 01:50:16 AM
If you've played it, is there actually anything to it?  As in, any good whatsoever?  What little I've seen of the game doesn't exactly fill me with a desire to have much more of a detailed look at it, but I don't have enough info to really judge it regardless.

Own, not played.
I've been deliberately ignoring all the newsletters and not installing/playing because I have no fucks to give until it is complete.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 02, 2016, 09:01:24 AM
For the content NMS provided on release I believe it was ridiculously overpriced. There was probably not more than $15 worth of content in the game and they demande you fork over $60. That never sits right with me.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 03, 2016, 04:54:45 PM
If there's been another AAA purchase I've made, I've forgotten about it.  Wait, no, there was Diablo 3, though I didn't stick with that for all that long as my arm kept acting up (too much mouse).  Suddenly occurs to me that I could give that and PoE another go finally.... hmm.  I just might do that.
PoE just started a new league yesterday, too (and has an expansion next year).
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 03, 2016, 06:28:08 PM
I never got past the Siren in PoE. And no one of my friends plays the game, so I have no one to help me.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 03, 2016, 08:26:22 PM
I never got past the Siren in PoE. And no one of my friends plays the game, so I have no one to help me.
My friend who I play it with was talking yesterday in discord about how it'd be great if we had more than the occasional returning person in our tiny guild to talk to or play with, I'd play with you guys if you want.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 03, 2016, 08:32:25 PM
I have to reinstall the game first but I would maybe play with you guys. That depends however on the level gap which I fear may be too big. Liek I said, I never got past Siren which was the second boss in the entire game.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 03, 2016, 08:35:10 PM
First actualy boss, really. Brutus is a mid-act boss.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 03, 2016, 09:18:36 PM
Then I'm even worse.

Also I don't remember but are there different servers for different continents? Because I'm from EU and my characters would be on EU too.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 03, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
No, but there are different gateways that lead to the same place but with better/worse ping.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 03, 2016, 09:26:54 PM
Okay, I'm currently installing the game but this may take a day.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 03, 2016, 10:07:37 PM
Then I'm even worse.



The game DOES have a pretty big learning curve.  I doubt you're the only one getting stuck in places like that.

From what I understand, it's not uncommon for a new player to get a certain distance in, sort of hit a wall, and realize that their character build just isn't working.  Which is when it's time to start a new one, hopefully improving on the previous concepts.   And starting totally new characters sounds like something that's done FREQUENTLY in this game for a bunch of reasons.  Probably why levelling up is so quick.

I ended up watching a few tutorial videos myself very recently (and also installing a loot filter designed to help new players).  Particularly for when it came to stuff like the economy... that currency stuff is more than a bit confusing at first.  Such a unique mechanic though.   

Currently I'm using a witch who specializes in summoning exploding skeletons for some reason.  Cant go wrong with exploding skeletons.  Well, if this were Minecraft then you could go wrong with them, it'd mean some sort of hideous skeleton/Creeper combo.... 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 03, 2016, 11:00:02 PM
And starting totally new characters sounds like something that's done FREQUENTLY in this game for a bunch of reasons.  Probably why levelling up is so quick.
That, and also the fact that they give you a ridiculous amount of character slots for free. Plenty of space for alts...not so much stash space once you actually find things you want to hold onto.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 04, 2016, 09:42:48 AM
Installes and checked, my furthest character is at level 17.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 04, 2016, 10:16:44 AM
I've got two guys in breach league, one slightly before merveil the siren and one in act 4 at lv 34.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 04, 2016, 11:00:25 AM
I have none in Breach since this is the new league and like I said, I didn't play for a long time. I would have to make a new character then.
I can play until the Siren if you want.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 04, 2016, 11:24:53 AM
Its not too far, go ahead. Whisper at Flarinth or Golemyst when you want to party up and I'll throw you a friend request in PoE (for anyone here really, not just vampire)
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 04, 2016, 11:33:47 AM
Okay, wcan you tell me what character/build you use? So I don't end up with the same.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 04, 2016, 11:36:24 AM
Zombies/SRS into eventually golemancer (once I have the jewels for it and the clayshapers) for the character near merveil.
Multiple fire spells for the guy in act 4.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 04, 2016, 12:20:34 PM
From what I understand, it's not uncommon for a new player to get a certain distance in, sort of hit a wall, and realize that their character build just isn't working.  Which is when it's time to start a new one, hopefully improving on the previous concepts.   And starting totally new characters sounds like something that's done FREQUENTLY in this game for a bunch of reasons.  Probably why levelling up is so quick.
That's what happened to me. I'm currently on the highest difficulty playthrough and I'm regurarly getting wreckt in a second now if I screw up just a tiny bit.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 04, 2016, 12:49:12 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Not to mention, one other key thing seems to be that basically EVERYONE will eventually hit a wall.  One big tip I'd heard was that while the maximum amount of skill points you can possibly get is over 100, you shouldn't bother PLANNING for more than about 70.  Because chances are, you wont make it to 100.  The "end game" is particularly nasty (you'll know you're approaching it when it's time to start using/working with maps) and eventually you'll find that you just cant seem to go further.  There ARE players that make it super far, but apparently that's pretty freaking rare.  And with players constantly creating new characters to try new builds, or making them for new leagues when those start, or other reasons, most don't worry about going ultra-far as it is (it's not like you have to get to the VERY end before it gets challenging, heh).

It's a pretty interesting approach.  In so many other games you're pretty much guaranteed to eventually hit max level if you just keep going.  But here... no.  You might not even get close.

Pretty merciless, really, heh.  I like that aspect.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 04, 2016, 01:23:58 PM
Maximum points I believe is around 120. Most builds have points planned up to lv80ish, or around 110 points, but have all the things they actually need around lv60-ish.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 04, 2016, 07:20:15 PM
Played a little today, don't remember what level I have but it should be around 5 or 6 now.

Currency system is still confusing as hell, that's why I'm ignoring player trading chat as good as possible.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 04, 2016, 08:30:53 PM
Trade chat is a silly place and full of shouting people. If you want to get something easily, you want to use the poe.trade site.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 05, 2016, 04:06:40 AM
Trade chat is a silly place and full of shouting people.
As is the case with every trade chat ever.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 06, 2016, 04:24:11 PM
Level 10 now, but still haven't reached Merveill, not even Brutus. This may take a while.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 10, 2016, 03:33:27 PM
I'm now very close to where I last got stuck. My build this time is a lot better and more stable at least that's what I think.
Currently level 15, very close to 16.
How far ahead are you?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 10, 2016, 08:59:29 PM
Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get there?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 10, 2016, 09:19:11 PM
Around a week. It could have been faster if I would have played every day actively but most of the levels I got this weekend (friday and saturday) because that's the time when I have enough time to play. Under the week I have to work at daytime and at the evening I want to play at least one game of Dota for my battle pass.
Also today was the finale of the Dota Major and I watched it three hours straight. And tomorrow they release 7.0 sooo it could be I will be busy tomorrow. Depends on how stable the servers will be on day 1 after the patch. Or how good the patch will be anyway. I hope for some nice buffes for Sand King.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 11, 2016, 06:59:40 AM
One thing that might help is looking up ways to level up faster... like, spell/skill combos and whatnot.  And general techniques to use when levelling.

I ended up re-creating my witch character, after realizing I'd made my first one in the Standard league, so I restarted in the Breach league (more mechanics=more interesting, breaches are entertaining/weird/profitable, among other things).  Instead of taking ages with it though, I tore through about 15 levels (or slightly more, I cant exactly remember, but it was at least 15) and Brutus in a couple of hours.  I'm not using a pre-made build either, that's boring (I tend to learn faster if I try and fail on my own).  Some general tips helped a lot though.  Like using this orb spell plus Spark to assist with clearing basic mobs (while always having a pile of zombies around).    Tears through piles of mobs pretty quick, and all it is, is a pair of skills... nothing had to be done on the passive tree.  It's just a "do stuff a bit faster" combo. 

Also helps a lot if you have an idea as to what to pick up and what to just ignore (and you'll end up ignoring MOST things).  Getting a loot filter can really help to learn that (is what I did).  There's videos and such about that too.   The "loot overload" aspect of the game is one of the most bloody confusing parts of it for new players, after all (certainly was in my case).  I mean, you punch like, one big skeleton, and this avalanche of helmets and gems and swords just flies all over the place.   I always wonder where they keep that stuff.

Helps also if you plan out your skill tree ahead of time.  There are sites for that.  Makes it less bloody confusing when you go to level up and cant remember where you were going or how you were going to get there.   


The big nasty part for me though is the vendor recipes.  Bloody strange mechanic.  Just.... ugh.  I aint gonna remember half of them.   The main one I can remember is the one to get Chromatic Orbs, so I've got a bunch of those now.

Not that I have a whole lot of any specific currency yet.  But then, I also aint using too much yet, so that works out well enough.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 11, 2016, 11:39:08 AM
Has there ever been a Hack and Slay RPG that was not totally overloaded with items? Because I cannot remember one. That is kind of a big aspect of these games, find a lot of stuff but because there are tons of items only a small amount of the stuff you find is useful.
The drop rate is pretty much that big because otherwise you would only get inferior stuff. Or you need big luck to get soemthign you really need.
Big drop rate means your chances of getting at least one useful item per map are bigger.

I think Breaches make  alot of things easier. Compareing the to Talisman, where you have a randomly appearing powerful monster and get a single semi-useful item, this time you face tons of weak monsters that drop tons of items, so your chance ofgetting stuff you need are also higher. And don't forget the tons of xp you get.
I got a lot of orbs, scrolls and other stuff. You don't have to save every last of them like in normal league, you can decide more often to reforge an item, even if it isn't that good. For example I got already around 5-7 chromatic orbs, so if I'm not happy with the sockets on an item, I reforge them to other colors.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 11, 2016, 07:28:18 PM
Beat Merveill myself now, couldn't wait anymore since this is the last day of this weekend.
It was a lot easier this time, actualyl it was too easy to be honest. Maybe this build is too strong or I had too much luck with my items or mayber it is becasue Breach makes the game overall easier.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 11, 2016, 10:40:08 PM
Has there ever been a Hack and Slay RPG that was not totally overloaded with items? Because I cannot remember one. That is kind of a big aspect of these games, find a lot of stuff but because there are tons of items only a small amount of the stuff you find is useful.
The drop rate is pretty much that big because otherwise you would only get inferior stuff. Or you need big luck to get soemthign you really need.
Big drop rate means your chances of getting at least one useful item per map are bigger.

I think Breaches make  alot of things easier. Compareing the to Talisman, where you have a randomly appearing powerful monster and get a single semi-useful item, this time you face tons of weak monsters that drop tons of items, so your chance ofgetting stuff you need are also higher. And don't forget the tons of xp you get.
I got a lot of orbs, scrolls and other stuff. You don't have to save every last of them like in normal league, you can decide more often to reforge an item, even if it isn't that good. For example I got already around 5-7 chromatic orbs, so if I'm not happy with the sockets on an item, I reforge them to other colors.

You'll get no complaints from me over the loot amount.... mostly I just find it moderately odd.   It's true that the genre throws stuff at you a lot, but I've never seen another game do it as much as this one.  I mean, you shoot one ghost or whatever with a deathray, and 20 shields, 7 swords, and a hat come flying out for no apparent reason.   They certainly have an interesting approach, but I'm just glad those filters are there.  Lots of little text blocks everywhere.

Though I think a huge part of it is just the satisfaction aspect: Who doesn't like seeing their screen fill up with possible goodies?


As for the breaches, they seem to get more interesting further on;  apparently they're really not all that great in the early game (particularly since they barely drop any of those splinters early on, which are apparently a major thing, though I'm not sure what exactly they are for).  Or that's what I read, anyway.   Strange things, though.  I've had a couple where it just flings this nearly overwhelming amount of things at me, and there was one in particular that farted out like, exactly three half-assed spiders, and then it just ran out of ideas.   I never did figure out what happened with that one, though I do remember the positioning of it made no sense (narrow area in the prison).
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 11, 2016, 11:27:41 PM
You may have a point there. I maybe just shrugged it off because of Breach. After each breach the entire floor is littered with stuff, I press alt and my entire screen is filled with text.
I also haven't played Van Helsing ina long time and Diablo even longer (the first one that is, I don't have 3).

About items in general: PoE advertises itself with "Loot the game". Check the game descirbtion page (not on steam, on the actual site), they are proud that this game has even mor eitems than the usual stuff in this genre. They even managed to make skills and currencies into items. They really like their loot.

About Breaches: In geenral I like them because they are nice goodie bags. You open them and items pop out. They are also fairly easy to survive. I died once though in one of the later one. To one of this huge... spidery things you mentioned. Apperently in the later ones there drops at least one "mini boss" kind of enemy that drops some good items once you kill him, one is a splinter. I can guess that they will appear more frequently the deeper you are in the game. Since I just reached Act 2 I cannot say that much about it, hell, I never even was that far before in the game. Everthing that comes now will be a surprise for me.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on December 12, 2016, 02:08:30 AM
The big nasty part for me though is the vendor recipes.  Bloody strange mechanic.  Just.... ugh.  I aint gonna remember half of them.   The main one I can remember is the one to get Chromatic Orbs, so I've got a bunch of those now.

Not that I have a whole lot of any specific currency yet.  But then, I also aint using too much yet, so that works out well enough.
Unless you're minmaxing from the getgo, you really don't have to care much about vendor recipes. It's mostly for the endgame when you start crafting new gear for you. You'll go through mountains of currency doing that.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on December 12, 2016, 11:07:14 AM
I'm now very close to where I last got stuck. My build this time is a lot better and more stable at least that's what I think.
Currently level 15, very close to 16.
How far ahead are you?
Was busy most of yesterday, sorry. With the character who was at merveil (who I'd gotten there in a couple hours at most, act 1 isn't long), they're still there. My other guy is at lv65, and almost good for mapping.
So either slightly behind or incredibly ahead. Whats the name of your guy?

Edit: Also, the lightning/spiders/things breaches can be very deadly very quickly in merc. Bloody orbs.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 12, 2016, 04:04:47 PM
Character name is TrueVampire. I'm currently just at the start of Act 2. We can either do Merveil together or I wait until you killed her. Whatever you like.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Pepisolo on December 12, 2016, 08:22:32 PM
I've got 479 hours logged in POE, but this was from a couple of year ago. There have been so many content updates since then that it's probably quite a different game now. I haven't even played since they changed the network code, the game used to desync quite a lot, but I believe that's been fixed now. I had a great time with it. You can do sooo much in terms of character builds, and that skill tree is insane. Great currency and potion systems. Some of the new perks in the SR Beta were inspired by POE -- those Power/Defense/Energy Orbitals are quite similar to something from POE, heh. ;)
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on December 13, 2016, 12:09:38 AM
Stop spoilering the SR Beta for me, now I want to play it even more. This update takes damn long.

On another side not to No Man's Sky (that's the game that kicked this topic off, remember?), I finally brought myself to buy a very similiar game that I had my eyes on in a long time. Subnautica. It's basically No Man's Sky in water.
I cannot say if it's better or worse as NMS but the genre is very similair and the gameplay is really fun. Except some parts that i will mention later.

Subnautica is still in Early Access and therefor not finished, you notice this in multiple points, mostly because the graphical options are shit, you can only set between good or bad but have no further options, for example shadows or lighting effects. The only other option is water, which makes up 90% of the game, so it is kind of given that they have at least an option for that to scale it up or down.

Anyway, in Subnautica a spaceship with tons of colonists or whatever they were, crashes on an aquatic planet, you can escape the wreck with your emergency lifepod but you are seemingly the only survivor left. What makes it even worse, your lifepod is very close to the wreck of the Aurora (the spaceship) and because of the sustained damage it sends out deadly radiation and it is only a matter of time until the whole area is radiated and you die. So basically you have to find a way to survive. On a planet full of water. No islands. Just water.

Sounds liek alot of fun, especially if you have a phobia of water. You start only with some rations but with no equipment (except an emergency fire extinguisher that you have to use right a the start because your lifepod is on fire). You have however a fabricator which is the only thing that somehow didn't break on your landing. This thing is basically the crafting bench of Subnautica, you can use it to fabricate literally anything 8as logn as you have the blueprints) from raw materials. Materials have to be collected of course underwater, at the start you can collect pieces of the Aurora wreckage and turn them into useful metal. You will also find Quartz crystals around your starting position that you can collect. these can be turned into glass. Combine glass and metall and you get an oxygen tank which you need to make longer dives in the water.
You will dive deeper in the world and start to collect various suff, your PDA gives you basic information about what to do next. You will craft a knife that allows you to collect plants and kill the maritine lifeforms, some are harmless, some are aggressive.
At some point you will craft the scanner, your most important tool in the game. This allows you to scan nearly anything, fishes, plants, even wreckage. Scanning stuff gives you more information about it but you may also unlock new blueprints (crafting recipes) for the fabricator. The broken pieces of the equipment from teh Aurora can be scanned and unlock the blueprint to it, for example you can unlock a seaglider if you scan it's broken remains that are scattered somewhere.

The survival aspect comes from basic needs, food and water, and of course the aggressive lifeforms you may encounter. Also the radiation of the Aurora that increases the closer you get to it.

Some aspects are however still annoying. First, needs. You have to drink each day which is realistically, but because you can only craft at the fabricator, you have always walk back to it to craft your rations there. There is no handcrafting whatsoever in the game. Water is somewhat simple to get compared to food. You have to eat so-called creepervines which are basically giants algaes that you can collect with your knife. These give around 3% of your food need, so you have to collect tons of them to get filled. And most often there are Stalkers, which attack you on sight.

Soem of the resources you need for starter items are hard to find. Crashfish powder can be found in caves which you don't know as new player And it will not spawn all the time, basically crash fish live in plant-like nests and if you get close the crash fish will rush out and explode at your face. In the nest you can find sometimes the powder but most often not. And you need the powder rigth at the start to get the repair tool, so you can repair your lifepod.

I think th emost annyoing part at the start is really that you have to swim all the time back to the lifepod to craft the next thing, then go out to find new stuff, swim back, craft and so on. This changes once you have a habitat build tool, because then you can create an underwater base and create your own fabricator. I recently reached that point and it feels very satisfying.

Base building int his game is simple, it's not block based like in Minecraft or Terraria, instead you have a buildign tool that allows you to select basic base parts, for example corridors, rooms etc. You can connect the different parts to your liking as long as they fit together, you can build simple bases or more complex ones and the corridor system allows you to place one part and enter the base and add other corridors and parts to the base without having to destroy anything. Every corridor you palce is an enclosed system that does not let any water in. You have to place of course a hatch to enter and it needs a power source to produce oxygen for you but once yo have it, you can place devices and furniture to your liking. Designing your base is really entertaining in this game.

The exploration aspect is somewhat limited because of the basic problem: You cannot hold your breath forever. Once you run out of oxygen you have to return to the surface or you drown. If you die during your exploration, you loose everything that you have collected until the last time you were in the base. Entering base sets a save point for your inventory, eerthing you have collected is then safe in your inventory, even if you die, but anything that you collect during your next travel will be insecure. It's a good system that pulls ideas from both aspects.
To make exploration easier you can craft tools and vehicles, the sea glider is the first one, it gives you a powered speed boost and allows you to travel faster as logn as it has enough power. Oxygen tanks and later even submarines help you to travel faster and deeper into the world.
There is currently no end game goal as far as I know but you can fidn the different lifepods that were scattered during the crash, int he world and find out more about the lore of the game. There are however no other humans besides you and the game has and will never have a multiplayer. The game wants that the player feels alone and has to survive on his own wits.

Also, the game looks AMAZING, the graphics and creature designs are well made.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on December 13, 2016, 02:30:51 AM
Stop spoilering the SR Beta for me, now I want to play it even more. This update takes damn long.

Yeah, it is, isn't it....   one issue is that some of us have just been overly busy lately, so that slows things down (given the season, I rather expected this might be the case).  Not to mention that even after a year of doing this, none of us are exactly experienced developers or anything, so that can lead to confusion (particularly in my case).  Not to mention that balancing things is bloody difficult... that can take awhile. 

We really do need to just get right down to it and put the bloody thing out.  There's not actually that much left to do on it and that build seems stable enough (probably).
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: z99-_ on March 12, 2017, 01:14:21 PM
So, apparently they released another major update, with relatively positive reviews (as one reviewer put it: "When the overall reviews go from overwhelmingly negative to mostly negative, you know they're doing something right!").

I don't own the game, but I'm curious to hear the opinions of those that have regarding the update. Is it things moving in the right direction, or too little too late? Or even, 'this is worse than what we had before'?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on March 12, 2017, 01:59:22 PM
Steamspy reports a massive jump in positive reviews (about 650) only a handful of negative ones (about 100 new ones) and a drop of about 65 older negative reviews (likely people that updated and changed their opinion).

Actual score didn't change that much:
Userscore: 33% Old userscore: 32%
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 12, 2017, 02:28:10 PM
Most people I know that play the game say that the last release is actually pretty good. So if you're a fan of open world snoredom simulators where you visit slightly different worlds over and over and over, this might actually be worth picking up now.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Aklyon on March 13, 2017, 05:44:34 PM
What exactly is this new update?
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: eRe4s3r on March 14, 2017, 01:54:57 PM
What exactly is this new update?

Vehicles but no real point to driving them....
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: z99-_ on March 14, 2017, 09:55:41 PM
What exactly is this new update?

Going through the release notes:

- improved graphics and textures
- you can own multiple ships
- ships and weapons have different quality levels and specializations
- many more base building materials added
- you can share base designs online or through steam
- vehicles, as mentioned
- you can make racetracks on planets, and share them via base sharing
- npc faction interactions made more meaningful
- photo mode added
- discovery menu improved, and mission log with current objectives added
- more audio and soundtrack
- most everything can be renamed
- cutscenes and text are skippable

perhaps still not what most people want, but certainly not nothing
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on March 15, 2017, 01:08:04 AM
Right now, it's unknown as to how far they intend on going with the vehicle stuff.   Both this and the previous "Foundation Update" were listed as preparations for things to come (for example freighters came in the previous update, but they only did so much until now, when you can now fill them with numerous ships), which could be anything.  So, no bloody clue where they're going with any of that.   

I'm also guessing that they intend on expanding the combat system (as in, with more enemy types) due to the changes in this build (weapon/ship types/classes/qualities and such).  But no way to know for sure.  One way or another though, it's not going to change things for people that don't like sandbox games.

I haven't tried this update myself yet.  A bit busy with Starward and a bit overly obsessed with Streets of Rogue (among others).  Lotsa roguelike right now.   I'll get to trying this out soon enough though. 
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: TheVampire100 on March 15, 2017, 03:13:01 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if this is a preparation to build your own empire in the game and lay war aganst other factions.
also, racetracks: What's the point of those? You don't meet any other player int he game anyway, so there is no one you can race against. Unless they plan to design intelligent npcs that will race against you.

Still not getting the game, even with the current sale. I wait till it costs 20.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Misery on March 15, 2017, 07:07:54 AM
Apparently the tracks can be uploaded/traded/something somehow.   Don't really know.   I'm guessing they intend on doing something more with it later.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Mánagarmr on March 15, 2017, 10:07:17 AM
I just hate this whole "Let's release what broken crap we have. We can always fix it later"-mentality.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: Draco18s on March 15, 2017, 04:57:22 PM
Nothing in those bullet points makes me think "oh, this is a game now."
I mean, yeah, sure, some positive stuff, but nothing that says opinion about it's "game-y-ness" should have risen.

And really, it hasn't.  The net change as a % is up one point. The only reason that makes the game "mostly negative" instead of "overwhelmingly negative" is because it crossed an arbitrary threshold.
Title: Re: After all this time, No Man's Sky finally releases....
Post by: ricardol on May 08, 2017, 05:31:30 AM
Overall I don't think anything they do can rectify how much of a dissapointment No Man's Sky was.