Raptor Dev Diary #3: More Audio And Video

[crazyroosterman]

I absolutely love the police in Grand Theft Auto.  Always have, since GTA 1.  *innocent whistling*

here's  a fun fact  did you in gta5 that the police in that game will aboustley refuse to go any were near you if your on a mountain even if its just at the base leading up? when I discovered that I felt a bit empty inside ):

[chemical_art]

The whole response scenario leads to some interesting emergent gameplay.

Even in AI Wars some players try to take every world so they can see just how hard the AI respond.

[Draco18s]

My favorite stealth games were those that being alerted was not an instant failure, but instead resulted in escalating response from the enemy. If you were spotted, first it would be a fight to prevent the enemy from calling for help and if that failed then eliminating / hiding from the less dangerous guards before the more dangerous response followed up. You could in theory fight the response force but it was always a steep climb, but on the other hand if you did manage to eliminate it then neighboring areas would be much easier since such a force was already eliminated.

You and me both, which is why the 3D game of mine (that is currently back-burnered) would operate like that.  And heck, even just getting into line of sight with a camera or guard wouldn't even be sufficient enough for them to call in backup or engage in a firefight.  There's this wonderful thing called disguises that if you're just wandering around looking like 400 other blokes no one's going to bat an eye.  And even if they are searching for you, being mixed in with 400 other blokes means you're hard to recognize in the crowd.

Also, the whole thing takes place in cyberspace, so the standard issue guard is a "dog brain"* robot: they might not even realize that there's an alert!  (Or rather: there's a fire alarm in that room, its in this room, so it's somebody else's problem and it didn't get the memo about your description anyway).

*Its what us chummers call a rating 3 pilot program. It's not very smart, but it at least doesn't require standard actions to direct in a firefight.

[crazyroosterman]

My favorite stealth games were those that being alerted was not an instant failure, but instead resulted in escalating response from the enemy. If you were spotted, first it would be a fight to prevent the enemy from calling for help and if that failed then eliminating / hiding from the less dangerous guards before the more dangerous response followed up. You could in theory fight the response force but it was always a steep climb, but on the other hand if you did manage to eliminate it then neighboring areas would be much easier since such a force was already eliminated.

You and me both, which is why the 3D game of mine (that is currently back-burnered) would operate like that.  And heck, even just getting into line of sight with a camera or guard wouldn't even be sufficient enough for them to call in backup or engage in a firefight.  There's this wonderful thing called disguises that if you're just wandering around looking like 400 other blokes no one's going to bat an eye.  And even if they are searching for you, being mixed in with 400 other blokes means you're hard to recognize in the crowd.

Also, the whole thing takes place in cyberspace, so the standard issue guard is a "dog brain"* robot: they might not even realize that there's an alert!  (Or rather: there's a fire alarm in that room, its in this room, so it's somebody else's problem and it didn't get the memo about your description anyway).

*Its what us chummers call a rating 3 pilot program. It's not very smart, but it at least doesn't require standard actions to direct in a firefight.

that sounds interesting although some of the more deliberately dum ai seems like it could make the game not quite as challenging as id like but still id play a stealth game in cyber space any day.

[x4000]

I absolutely love the police in Grand Theft Auto.  Always have, since GTA 1.  *innocent whistling*

here's  a fun fact  did you in gta5 that the police in that game will aboustley refuse to go any were near you if your on a mountain even if its just at the base leading up? when I discovered that I felt a bit empty inside ):

Choppers can still get you up there, though.  Unfortunately there's no military response (except in that one mission) in that game.

I've discovered that if you ride the train around the city while you're fully loaded with a minigun and rocket launcher and whatnot, you can absolutely wreck the police and maintain 5 stars for a super long time, and then eventually when you run low on ammo just keep riding the train and if you've taken out all the choppers or go into a tunnel, the stars expire.  In the meantime... far more invincible than on a mountain.

[crazyroosterman]

I absolutely love the police in Grand Theft Auto.  Always have, since GTA 1.  *innocent whistling*

here's  a fun fact  did you in gta5 that the police in that game will aboustley refuse to go any were near you if your on a mountain even if its just at the base leading up? when I discovered that I felt a bit empty inside ):

Choppers can still get you up there, though.  Unfortunately there's no military response (except in that one mission) in that game.

I've discovered that if you ride the train around the city while you're fully loaded with a minigun and rocket launcher and whatnot, you can absolutely wreck the police and maintain 5 stars for a super long time, and then eventually when you run low on ammo just keep riding the train and if you've taken out all the choppers or go into a tunnel, the stars expire.  In the meantime... far more invincible than on a mountain.

relay?! I never choppers when I used to do that exploit guess it must have been a bug.

[x4000]

If they haven't seen you for long enough, then yeah, no choppers.  I meant mainly if you're up in the mountains where the police won't go, but you're sniping them or something along those lines.

[Draco18s]

that sounds interesting although some of the more deliberately dum ai seems like it could make the game not quite as challenging as I T'Would like but still I T'Would play a stealth game in cyber space any day.

Its not quite "deliberately dumb," I'm just downplaying it a little. I've got specific mechanics in mind and the goal is for the player to not need to worry about if their foot is sticking out around a corner, but rather worry about bashing keypads or riffling through data stores in the open.

Think of it more like playing a spy in TF2: if you're in amongst players of the other team just right, none of them are going to suspect a thing.  As soon as you stab someone, then everyone in your line of sight will go "spy!" and everyone not in your line of sight will just keep doing what they're doing.

[crazyroosterman]

that sounds interesting although some of the more deliberately dum ai seems like it could make the game not quite as challenging as I T'Would like but still I T'Would play a stealth game in cyber space any day.

Its not quite "deliberately dumb," I'm just downplaying it a little. I've got specific mechanics in mind and the goal is for the player to not need to worry about if their foot is sticking out around a corner, but rather worry about bashing keypads or riffling through data stores in the open.

Think of it more like playing a spy in TF2: if you're in amongst players of the other team just right, none of them are going to suspect a thing.  As soon as you stab someone, then everyone in your line of sight will go "spy!" and everyone not in your line of sight will just keep doing what they're doing.

hu so social infiltration stealth then? I know its not an entirely accurate word to use since if your in cyber space your not socially manipulating people but rather systems and so on but that actually sounds really interesting the only other core stealth game I can think of that uses social infiltration is the hit man series.

[Draco18s]

Well, being a single player game, it's going to be against a scripted system either way.  There's some extra flexibility in suspension of disbelief when systems misbehave though. "Well of course it did that, it's just a dumb robot."

Not that all entities will be AI programs, there will be 'human' agents as well, but mostly on Overwatch.  Well, and the fellow non-allied sneaks causing trouble for you too.

Anyway, just because they're AI programs doesn't mean that they can't provide a challenge.  One of the systems I designed was allowing the player to see through walls or around corners (or in other remote ways).  But such vision is imperfect.  See through walls? Sure.  But not everything you see is real: just as you can make the AI not see you, the AI can make you not see it (or create virtual phantoms).

It's the "empty police car on the side of the freeway makes drivers slow down" tactic.

[crazyroosterman]

Well, being a single player game, it's going to be against a scripted system either way.  There's some extra flexibility in suspension of disbelief when systems misbehave though. "Well of course it did that, it's just a dumb robot."

Not that all entities will be AI programs, there will be 'human' agents as well, but mostly on Overwatch.  Well, and the fellow non-allied sneaks causing trouble for you too.

Anyway, just because they're AI programs doesn't mean that they can't provide a challenge.  One of the systems I designed was allowing the player to see through walls or around corners (or in other remote ways).  But such vision is imperfect.  See through walls? Sure.  But not everything you see is real: just as you can make the AI not see you, the AI can make you not see it (or create virtual phantoms).

It's the "empty police car on the side of the freeway makes drivers slow down" tactic.

1 I meant as in not usually sneaking but trying but sort of blending and trying not to arose suspicion but sounds like this might have bits of both sounds like I should enjoy it providing your actually letting public people play it when your finished with it of course

2 that sounds like potential for multi player not that I expect that will lead to it but a possibility any way

3 is it going to be using a peaking system of some kind in regards to looking round walls and such? I liked that system in you know what I'm referring to

4 so the ais going to be on a sort of watching state then? presumably in till the player fucks up inevitably and makes shit hit the fan I hope your ais good  other wise people are going to find a way to cheese it even though that tends to be half the purpose of a stealth game its not really to good if you want it to be challenging in the long term.

[Draco18s]

providing your actually letting public people play it when your finished with it of course

Not for a long while.  It's no where near a state that people can "play" it.

that sounds like potential for multi player not that I expect that will lead to it but a possibility any way

Hah, sort of, but I'm not set up to do a networked game. I just intend to have agents that are also doing what you're doing, but with different goals, who might (cough, will) trip alarms and make certain areas more dangerous to pass through.  Yeah, maybe they aren't looking for you, but security levels will be on alert for any suspicious activity.

is it going to be using a peaking system of some kind in regards to looking round walls and such? I liked that system in you know what I'm referring to

No, but yes.  There's at least 3 ways I envision being able to observe enemies outside your direct line of sight, one of which is a literal wall-hack: you see enemy outlines through walls (screenshot is just a demo scene to verify that the visual effects work the way I wanted).  Another is via remote camera, e.g. there's a camera over there rendering its view over here for me to see, ah la Portal or CCTV.

so the ais going to be on a sort of watching state then? presumably in till the player fucks up inevitably and makes shit hit the fan I hope your ais good  other wise people are going to find a way to cheese it even though that tends to be half the purpose of a stealth game its not really to good if you want it to be challenging in the long term.

There's a tiered system involved.  Guard patrols room / overseer watching through cameras / etc.  Each one will have its own weaknesses in terms of how to get by, but Stealth games are at heart puzzle games, albeit with less strict penalties for failure.  And in my case, going in guns blazing and shooting everything in sight should be a valid (although dangerous) option.

[crazyroosterman]

providing your actually letting public people play it when your finished with it of course

Not for a long while.  It's no where near a state that people can "play" it.

that sounds like potential for multi player not that I expect that will lead to it but a possibility any way

Hah, sort of, but I'm not set up to do a networked game. I just intend to have agents that are also doing what you're doing, but with different goals, who might (cough, will) trip alarms and make certain areas more dangerous to pass through.  Yeah, maybe they aren't looking for you, but security levels will be on alert for any suspicious activity.

is it going to be using a peaking system of some kind in regards to looking round walls and such? I liked that system in you know what I'm referring to

No, but yes.  There's at least 3 ways I envision being able to observe enemies outside your direct line of sight, one of which is a literal wall-hack: you see enemy outlines through walls (screenshot is just a demo scene to verify that the visual effects work the way I wanted).  Another is via remote camera, e.g. there's a camera over there rendering its view over here for me to see, ah la Portal or CCTV.

so the ais going to be on a sort of watching state then? presumably in till the player fucks up inevitably and makes shit hit the fan I hope your ais good  other wise people are going to find a way to cheese it even though that tends to be half the purpose of a stealth game its not really to good if you want it to be challenging in the long term.

There's a tiered system involved.  Guard patrols room / overseer watching through cameras / etc.  Each one will have its own weaknesses in terms of how to get by, but Stealth games are at heart puzzle games, albeit with less strict penalties for failure.  And in my case, going in guns blazing and shooting everything in sight should be a valid (although dangerous) option.

1 yea fair enough like I said when you do decide to release how ever it is you intend to do that

2 I never expected you to actually have multiplayer elements (from what I've heard that sort of thing can be quite expensive to do) but the ground work is there for sure in having those other sneakers be players and if you wanted to go even further than that you could have the security systems be all controlled by a player as well just to make it more interesting

3 neato

4 sigh I wish stealth games wouldn't do that and just focus on making the stealth mechanics stronger personally I find when they have combat in that's its either to easy/dull and not very interesting BUT if that's how you want it to be I'm not going to try and sandbag you there ill just be doing my usual thing treating being detected as a failure state and restarting.

[Draco18s]

4 sigh I wish stealth games wouldn't do that and just focus on making the stealth mechanics stronger personally I find when they have combat in that's its either to easy/dull and not very interesting BUT if that's how you want it to be I'm not going to try and sandbag you there ill just be doing my usual thing treating being detected as a failure state and restarting.

Oh I get it. This is all about stealth, but I'm a fan of being able to shoot my way through problems if I want/need to.  I've even got the weapons designed in such a way that they can benefit the stealth stuff. e.g. blinding a robot so its vision range is nil.

[crazyroosterman]

4 sigh I wish stealth games wouldn't do that and just focus on making the stealth mechanics stronger personally I find when they have combat in that's its either to easy/dull and not very interesting BUT if that's how you want it to be I'm not going to try and sandbag you there ill just be doing my usual thing treating being detected as a failure state and restarting.

Oh I get it. This is all about stealth, but I'm a fan of being able to shoot my way through problems if I want/need to.  I've even got the weapons designed in such a way that they can benefit the stealth stuff. e.g. blinding a robot so its vision range is nil.

o really? now that I can get behind heck you can shoot your way through problems in invisible if you think its a good idea at the time heck having more utility in their guns that wasn't for assassinating guards would nice know that I think about like something they could sell in enough thingy of downloadable content
btw if weapons will have uses for stealth then ill be happy not to ignore them entirely in my try hard way of stealth gaming.