My Love/Hate Relationship with Games

[LaughingThesaurus]

I actually have not had that happen yet. Any kind of performance gone wrong had gone wrong in certain mechanical ways. Again, like not remembering lines and stuff like that. Just a general lack of preparation on the part of the actors. I'm not generally worried about whether the audience likes the performance, but rather that the performance will be giving it all we've got. It's kind of like your example.

I'm a little bit like that. I think that as I grow, I'll feel it more. Like, I'll be more familiar with what I'm doing and become much more comfortable with the keyboard I have as time goes on, and I'll be more familiar with all of the little ways that your hand moves and feels as it strikes the keys in different ways. Now, I have not thought about playing with the rhythm and structure, or anything like that. I have actually sort of transitioned out of a song that's in C major and just moved on to something else in the same key that was completely improvised. Granted, again, I'm not as familiar or comfortable, so it's not as if it flows quite the same way as what it came from... but it's like me in the form of music right there. And usually it's pretty. When it isn't I just do different things. But, there was a part of this song I have for the showcase that bugged me. In a Whole New World, the part that goes "fantastic point of view" is just a bit of a mess. It's straight quarter notes in the arrangement I have and it has been driving me nuts... so I'm playing it more to resemble the original song. Probably going to run it by somebody more experienced, but it sounds and feels much better to me.

If singing is more like a sport, I'm not really at all physically fit. That would explain a lot of why I feel sort of behind. It's also just that my voice as it is isn't very good. The range isn't. The sound of it apparently is very pleasant, but my range extends from something like the G at the bottom of the staff on bass clef to middle C on an okay day. Maybe the E above that on a really really good day. If we're talking falsetto, or high voice, or whichever term that is... an octave higher would be pushing it. Really, I don't think that I want a different voice, but I just don't know how to use the one I've got. And, well, if it is indeed more like a sport, I must be so unfit that I can't really perform as well as the real vocal athletes.

Sprouting wings or being the very best is a bit out of the question, but there's no way to work and practice at being successful enough at something you weren't necessarily born to do? I wouldn't buy that. Regardless, I don't really have any knowledge or experience in this field. I'll just have to learn it the hard way in the end, and figure out what I really am the best at doing. But, I will say that I have no plans to min-max life. I must strike the balance of passion and survival, to enjoy what I'm doing and still eat while doing it.

Well, I like there to be music around. I guess it's not as if I can only focus on one thing, rather that I need to devote some amount of my attention span to what I am listening to as well as to what I am doing. It actually really bothers me to hear other people talking while I work, because then I'll listen. And then I'll respond. It's kind of ingrained in me, I guess. I've just done it for so long that it happens with words just as well as music.

Now... I do not know what I would do in that situation. I actually used to do a lot of more improvisational sort of thing, and that kind of skill probably comes in handy for disaster mitigation in these situations. However, I actually have not done any improv for a very long time, so I'm not at all well practiced. I'd need to get into it to really know how I would handle things and to keep a straight enough face through the worst things.

aaaaand... I will look into them when I'm not extremely tired. I'm talking, tired enough that I feel the effect of being tired. So... Goodnight! We shall talk more other days, good sir!

[apophispro]

Ok so another slight refinement of what I'm looking for. It's definitely not casual games. They're way too simple. I'm not just looking for something to wind down with, though that was a good thought. The reason I'm not really looking for board games comes down to that I religiously play single-player games. I get my communal experiences elsewhere, and I like my games to be something I do by myself. I still want something that I can get into though.

I also do want an intellectual challenge, but I don't get anything out of mathematical challenges. They're just not interesting to me. That's why I like real-world strategy versus game strategy. Real-world strategy is hardly ever based on math. The technology is highly mathematical, but the actual strategy is based on "If we do this, what will happen on a strategic level?" So knowing the math of the tank-busting bullets is almost completely unimportant for both soldier and leader. What's important is having a good idea of what they will do to the tank and the people inside it. That interests me. When that's represented in solid mathematical variables, it doesn't interest me at all.

I can't find games that offer this kind of strategic thinking on any scale. I don't know if they exist. The games that come closest are games that offer real-time offensive gameplay like RF:G and Skyrim, but the combat in Skyrim is pathetically simple and the combat in RF:G isn't much better. The combat in Far Cry 2 doesn't offer much either. I don't like setting my own goals because that's not strategic. I'm not solving a problem. I'm just experimenting with the programming in the game.

So I stand by my previous refinement of what I'm looking for is real-time WYSIWYG improvisational strategic gameplay. I'm also amending that with I'd like it to be severely intellectually challenging but without using mathematical abstraction (thus becoming mathematically challenging rather than, I think, strategically challenging), and I don't want it to be something that's heavily simplified or can ONLY be played for half an hour. Finally, I do want it to be single-player.

With those amendments made, is that even really possible in games? Are games simply too mathematical in nature to be able to offer a real strategic challenge, not a mathematical one. The planning and execution of real-world strategy is mostly based on psychology, not math. It's not even really technology or weapons. Those are just tools. There have been some great articles written about how Al Qaeda is using incredibly low-tech bombs to beat our high-tech detection equipment. Every time we develop something to detect their new one, they remove that component. That's the kind of strategy that interests me. It's all about being clever with what you have in front of you, having a goal to achieve, and thinking through what the other side will do. Technology and weapons are just tools in those situations.

Chris, I think you're absolutely right that my taste has changed as I've gotten older. The issue is I fear it may have evolved out of what games are capable of offering me. When I was younger, I had simpler strategic and tactical needs. The combat and strategy in Morrowind or Red Alert 2 was more satisfying. As I got older and started learning about military tactics and strategies, I wanted to try them out for myself on the individual and larger scales (but not against real people). I started looking for that to be fulfilled by games, and I searched every genre to try and find games that would offer that on some level. However the games I found that even approached that kind of strategy were so simple that I felt like I was wasting my time (i.e. the more sophisticated FPS games). The more sophisticated strategy games changed out of real-world strategy and into very sophisticated math problems, which isn't what I'm looking for at all. So I guess my question is whether this is possible in modern gaming technology, or do I have to wait for virtual reality? No kind of real-world strategy that shows up in games even offers me a challenge.

[x4000]

I suggest online Chess, Go, or Backgammon, then.  Chess really has everything you're looking for honestly.  And plenty of games with solid AI for them, unless you're already very good.

[x4000]

Edited though: Civilization IV (and I presume V, though I've not played it) may also meet your criteria.

[apophispro]

Chris, that's a really interesting suggestion. I played backgammon a lot when I was younger but avoided chess because I couldn't understand it very well yet. I haven't played go. I've been avoiding games with simple strategies so much that I just dismissed those as being simple games. How could a game with only a few pieces and a board of all squares with two colors be more complex than a game that offers armies and weapons etc? That definitely could be something I've matured into without realizing it. I'm going to check it out. I also only gave Civ a try ages ago, and I didn't spend much time with it. I should give it a solid shot.

[x4000]

Go is incredibly complicated, just FYI -- holy moly it's hard.  In parts of Asia it has the same status as Chess, unless I'm much mistaken.

[MouldyK]

After reading through this and thinking that at 21, I am facing the same problems a lot, I wish I played Red Faction: G or even Morrowind so I could feel the love you feel for them xD

So far, I feel like Crusader Kings 2 appeals a lot to what I want in a game (Do what you want, no goals etc.) and I am waiting for Europa Universalis 4 as that might appeal in that aspect as well to me, but I do like the idea about Scribblenauts with Guns. Being set a task and being able to solve it my own way. Like in Skyrim, I wore the worst armor, but went around sneaking with a bow everywhere to create a challenge.


I'm a very creative person, so I like to think outside the box with things, hence my plan to build an underwater town in Terraria when the update comes. xD


So I feel Apophispro's thoughts about being bored, but I am looking on the brightside that I wil find something eventually...


...until someone makes something like Terraria/Minecraft, but underwater. Like swimming through caverns, digging breathing holes, maybe hunting for food aswell, findign secret cities and things to sell. The Aim: Amass $1,000,000,000 in artifacts.

[tigersfan]

Go is incredibly complicated, just FYI -- holy moly it's hard.  In parts of Asia it has the same status as Chess, unless I'm much mistaken.

You are not.

[jonasan]

Great discussion guys and some nice suggestions for where to go to find real entertainment these days. I would have to personally recommend the world of rogue-likes as the one genre which still has the ability to capture and sustain my attention these days.... and to give a recommedation that (at least to some extent) might fulfill your criteria I would heartily recommmend you check out TOME 4. It can be downloaded for free (but you may feel the need to donate after it takes your life...) and has provided me with over 250 hours of high quality single player tactical roleplaying entertainment. 

I can't really express how much i love this game and it is without a doubt the best thing i have played in years. Having started out in gaming with a BBC micron and 5 1/2 inch floppy (reallly floppy) and then followed the evolution through I can completely agree with a lot of your comments on modern games over the last 10 years. Indie games are where things are at these days in my opinion - that is individuals and awesome companies like Arcen. They are the only people with the drive to push the boundaries - they are disolussioned gamers like us, fed up of the latest COD and FIFA

So yeah - no more time but... TOME 4 - rogue-like fun, with a very nice tileset, great UI, brilliant talents/cooldown system, deep combat, fabulous class options and build development, real tactical intellectually challenging gameplay, oodles of content, nice unlockables that keep you coming back for more, vibrant open world to explore. I don't know how to get it across properly but its outstanding. In the current climate of games which are often picked up and put down again fairly quickly due to lack of inovation and compelling involving gameplay - TOME 4 really stands out from the crowd.

Give it a try - might just remind you why you love gaming as it did for me! 

(Also - its open source and very modable in  a relatively simple way - which means it might be a great place to start your potential inrodes into coding games - should you choose to go that way)

[apophispro]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all of your wonderful input in this thread. Most of you have probably forgotten it existed, but I thought some of you might appreciate knowing where all of this ultimately went. After picking up and fooling around with probably near 150 games (for no more than $200 thank you GOG and Steam summer sales), I seem to have landed on a genre that meets most of the criteria. I would never have predicted it in a million years, but it's a certain story-driven breed of think-before-you-leap platformers. My current favorites are the Trine series, Gunpoint (amazing game), Mark of the Ninja, and Waking Mars.

I found that platformers based on muscle memory and learning controls (Super Meat Boy) or simply based on making it through the game (Deadlight, Bastion) don't hold the same appeal. I like best getting involved in a quirky little world with a clever mechanic or two that I can use to be inventive while playing. At the same time the direct puzzle games including platformers also have not held the same appeal (Osmos, Spacechem, Portal, Vessel, The Swapper, Unmechanical, Puddle, Spirits and so on). It's being able to use an inventive mechanic to make my way through the world or defeat enemies that interests me rather than a laid out logic puzzle of some kind.

So that's the update for the games that came out of this smattering of ideas. Of course if anyone has any recommendations for games of this nature, I'd be more than happy to look into them. Additionally, if anyone's reading this thinking "but what about this equally obscure genre that has all the same kinds of stuff just different" I'd be happy to look into that as well. Ultimately though, this is less a plea for recommendations than a friendly update for those who helped out. Thanks!

[x4000]

Great to hear it bore fruit for you!

[Draco18s]

*Slips into the thread, skimmed the first page and the most recent posts*

I would never have predicted it in a million years, but it's a certain story-driven breed of think-before-you-leap platformers. My current favorites are the Trine series, Gunpoint (amazing game), Mark of the Ninja, and Waking Mars.

I found that platformers based on muscle memory and learning controls (Super Meat Boy) or simply based on making it through the game (Deadlight, Bastion) don't hold the same appeal. I like best getting involved in a quirky little world with a clever mechanic or two that I can use to be inventive while playing.

Have you tried Knytt?
The base game is--as far as I am aware--in that same zone as those others.  Neat little power ups that you get along the way (surprise surprise, you can revist earlier areas for additional exploration) but not hard in the muscle-memory vein.

There are user created levels which do fall into that, but the base game was very well done.  It gets hard in the same way that Portal got hard: lots of options.

Also, on the game design front:
Who said you had to program your games?  My most wildly successful game (so far) has been a card game.