Author Topic: DRM for online functions  (Read 46173 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2012, 08:23:37 pm »
I probably jumped the gun on leaving because I was in a foul mood last night and I kind of expected this conversation to go down the swirling maw that is similar to every "Conversation in YouTube comments everTM." ;) So that makes me look like a jerk in its own right. I can't win. *sighs*.

Having re-read your post several times eRe4s3r, I find no big warning sign with the idea. The only problems that could come up with such a system is any possible bugs/errors that could crop up. There is also a slight potential for abuse if the blacklist was outsourced to the community but its extremely unlikely to happen. Which is basically, someone reports a legitimate key being used to ban them from using it for malicious reasons. Its just something to mention. But, this seems like a decent system, provided you want to keep a blacklist of keys going. I'm not advocating it being used but neither am I saying we shouldn't. Certainly we have had worse ideas floated for protecting software here recently. *cough* Diablo 3 *cough*

So yeah.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2012, 12:09:11 am »
I'm about four pages late on this, but...

One of the things I respect the most about Arcen is that their games are DRM free.

Technically AI War isn't "DRM Free."  It still has a serial key, even if it doesn't check to see that it's only been used once.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #152 on: August 22, 2012, 04:21:13 am »
We're dipping into pointless semantics here. What does DRM free in the absolute sense mean? Does it matter? Basically, DRM free for the purposes of this conversation, means that the publisher doesn't keep you from making copies off their stuff, without parting with money, if you really want to. If anything, it's got DRM hooks into consumer morality. Typing in a stolen serial is akin to typing in "I didn't PAY FOR THIS GAME AND I DON'T CARE." So get technically DRM if you want to, but I'm pretty sure you know better.

edit: Two things: first, I said I'd bow out of this conversation, and two, now I'm sounding shrill. I'm out for good because I honestly don't think I'm positively contributing to the discussion at this point.

All I gotta say is that Arcen's original stance on DRM is spot on with how I feel about it, and I'd be pleased as punch to see that stance remain as it is.

now i'm gonna frogout
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 04:26:38 am by doctorfrog »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #153 on: August 22, 2012, 10:00:08 am »
I'm about four pages late on this, but...

One of the things I respect the most about Arcen is that their games are DRM free.

Technically AI War isn't "DRM Free."  It still has a serial key, even if it doesn't check to see that it's only been used once.
Yea, we usually say it has no significant DRM.

Honestly, the main point of the serial key thing is so that downloading the demo is not automatically getting the full game; the license key is the only difference.  Which lets us keep the demo up to date without additional effort :)
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Offline RCIX

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #154 on: August 22, 2012, 04:54:27 pm »
What does DRM free in the absolute sense mean?
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #155 on: August 22, 2012, 06:45:41 pm »
INSTALL GENTOO

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2012, 02:28:44 pm »
I can understand the desire to make it harder for pirates to get the updates for the game, after all it really isn't fair that they get the exact same level of customer service and support that the rest of us get. However, there is a distinct problem with any sytem that would blacklist serials of any kind. As keygens can create ANY valid serial, there is almost no way to prove that any given serial is legitimate customer's or a leaked/keygened serial. Yes if you have the original emails you could prove that you paid for your copy, but that would require a portion of legitimate customers to have to prove they're not pirates. After doing a bit of checking, prompted by this very thread, I discovered that 2 of my 5 serials are in fact posted on a torrent site. I've never personally given out my serials, so I can only expect that either they were keygended or were taken when my hotmail account was hacked into. Since that hack, I've made it a priority never to keep important info, like keys, passwords, ect in my email. As such, I delete any email that has such that I don't have to absolutely keep. Since I copied my keys into a file, which I backed up on multiple sources, I deleted the receipt emails. (I tend not to keep game receipts, only the keys are needed after all) Now I don't make any claim that my case is common, hell it might even be unique, but the fact remains that pretty much any form of additional DRM or changes to Arcen's DRM scheme would mean I that my copies of Fleet Command itself and Zenith Remnant would be invalidated. I would be required to either leave it in demo mode, or repurchase both the main game and one expansion. Personally, I would most likely just buy them over again, but its still an additional hassle that a pirate doesn't have to go through. All a pirate will do if their copy is invalidated is either wait for the new crack/keygen/leaked serial/ect. Or if they are the type, make the crack/keygen themselves. And thusly, like most DRM, the pirate gets it easy, and I have to deal with the hassle. At least with the current sytem the pirate suffers just as much from the DRM as I do. They have to put in 5 serials just like I did. Sure, they stole theirs while I paid for mine. But that is not Arcen's fault. People steal shit, and as long as it's an imperfect world, that is the way it is going to be. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Arcen's DRM stance. Is it broken by keygens? Yep. So are most systems that allows serials/keys. They all get broken in the end. Are the pirates getting the same support as I get? Possibly. But I think not. I recently had an issue with my copy of AI War (the Spire City Shard Reactor image was broken) and it was keith.lamothe that helped me resolve it. Your average pirate isn't likely to post on the company's support page and ask for help. (though I could be wrong) Because I paid for my copies I feel no reserve about posting on mantis for help, or posting on these forums for questions. (though truth be told this is my first post, and I didn't know about mantis until 5.036 when the update on the wiki talked about a certain bug and gave a link to mantis.)TL DRDR, changing the current DRM will almost certainlnegativelyly affect legitimate customers (though possibly very few of them) and have, imo, little to no real impact on pirates themselves. keith.lamothe himself has already gone on record saying that any DRM that would havnegativeve affects on legitimate customers is something they are not willing to do, and that even changing their current serial system would take away from time spent improving and expanding AI War. Thusly, we can either pony that pirates are getting the same stuff we are for free, which is going to happen almost no matter what, or be grateful for the continued work and support that is given to and put into AI War by the Acren staff. And tell them to keep it up, and keep taking our money.  I for one, will go with the second option, as I did when I bought and tested Ancient Shadows. Good job, love it, can't wait to see what it looks like when it's out of beta.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2012, 02:46:21 pm »
Paragraph (and minor type correction) mode enabled.  Oh, and welcome to the forums :) :

I can understand the desire to make it harder for pirates to get the updates for the game, after all it really isn't fair that they get the exact same level of customer service and support that the rest of us get. However, there is a distinct problem with any sytem that would blacklist serials of any kind. As keygens can create ANY valid serial, there is almost no way to prove that any given serial is legitimate customer's or a leaked/keygened serial. Yes if you have the original emails you could prove that you paid for your copy, but that would require a portion of legitimate customers to have to prove they're not pirates.

After doing a bit of checking, prompted by this very thread, I discovered that 2 of my 5 serials are in fact posted on a torrent site. I've never personally given out my serials, so I can only expect that either they were keygended or were taken when my hotmail account was hacked into. Since that hack, I've made it a priority never to keep important info, like keys, passwords, ect in my email. As such, I delete any email that has such that I don't have to absolutely keep. Since I copied my keys into a file, which I backed up on multiple sources, I deleted the receipt emails. (I tend not to keep game receipts, only the keys are needed after all)

Now I don't make any claim that my case is common, hell it might even be unique, but the fact remains that pretty much any form of additional DRM or changes to Arcen's DRM scheme would mean I that my copies of Fleet Command itself and Zenith Remnant would be invalidated. I would be required to either leave it in demo mode, or repurchase both the main game and one expansion. Personally, I would most likely just buy them over again, but its still an additional hassle that a pirate doesn't have to go through. All a pirate will do if their copy is invalidated is either wait for the new crack/keygen/leaked serial/ect. Or if they are the type, make the crack/keygen themselves.  And thusly, like most DRM, the pirate gets it easy, and I have to deal with the hassle.

At least with the current system the pirate suffers just as much from the DRM as I do. They have to put in 5 serials just like I did. Sure, they stole theirs while I paid for mine. But that is not Arcen's fault. People steal [stuff], and as long as it's an imperfect world, that is the way it is going to be. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Arcen's DRM stance. Is it broken by keygens? Yep. So are most systems that allows serials/keys. They all get broken in the end. Are the pirates getting the same support as I get? Possibly. But I think not.

I recently had an issue with my copy of AI War (the Spire City Shard Reactor image was broken) and it was keith.lamothe that helped me resolve it. Your average pirate isn't likely to post on the company's support page and ask for help. (though I could be wrong) Because I paid for my copies I feel no reserve about posting on mantis for help, or posting on these forums for questions. (though truth be told this is my first post, and I didn't know about mantis until 5.036 when the update on the wiki talked about a certain bug and gave a link to mantis.)

TL;DR[?]: changing the current DRM will almost certainly negatively affect legitimate customers (though possibly very few of them) and have, imo, little to no real impact on pirates themselves. keith.lamothe himself has already gone on record saying that any DRM that would have negative affects on legitimate customers is something they are not willing to do, and that even changing their current serial system would take away from time spent improving and expanding AI War.

Thusly, we can either pony that pirates are getting the same stuff we are for free, which is going to happen almost no matter what, or be grateful for the continued work and support that is given to and put into AI War by the Acren staff. And tell them to keep it up, and keep taking our money.

I for one, will go with the second option, as I did when I bought and tested Ancient Shadows. Good job, love it, can't wait to see what it looks like when it's out of beta.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2012, 01:48:29 pm »
Paragraph (and minor type correction) mode enabled.  Oh, and welcome to the forums :) :

Thank you for your assistance and the welcome




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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #159 on: August 26, 2012, 08:14:33 pm »
I have a question about the serial key actually. Would the game actually allow two players with identical serials play a game together? If not, would there actually be a problem if that were actually not allowed to happen?

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #160 on: August 27, 2012, 02:55:35 am »
I have a question about the serial key actually. Would the game actually allow two players with identical serials play a game together? If not, would there actually be a problem if that were actually not allowed to happen?

Given that the only way to test that is to give away a copy of the game, which you really shouldn't, I'm not sure they want us to know.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #161 on: August 27, 2012, 09:33:34 am »
Well, at worst, I gave em something to think about. Answering that question publicly is probably a terrible idea. And no, I'm not gonna test it. I'd rather just buy the game for my friends.

Offline RCIX

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #162 on: August 27, 2012, 01:33:58 pm »
Can't say either way really. My guess is no, since Arcen never mentioned it.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2012, 04:19:53 pm »
I have a question about the serial key actually. Would the game actually allow two players with identical serials play a game together? If not, would there actually be a problem if that were actually not allowed to happen?

1) Yes, two people with identical keys can currently play together.  I know, as I did this with the friend who introduced me, prior to buying my own copy.
2) Actually, yes.  If you activate with one key, there's no way to "revoke" that key and/or enter a new, different one (ditto expansions).

Offline chemical_art

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Re: DRM for online functions
« Reply #164 on: September 06, 2012, 01:57:12 am »
With steam I've had me and my dad play together using the same account. I wonder if steam cares if two players play, and only take notice when they notice a larger number of people using the same account at the same time.
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