DRM for online functions

[doctorfrog]

1. I just know that developers who berate pirates as "not being our customers anyway" have found to regret this very quickly. Because it is wrong. I can guarantee you pirates are reading this and laughing their backsides off.

2. Or you know, you could just read stuff like this which is, i thought, common knowledge by now...
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110727/16233815292/another-day-another-study-that-says-pirates-are-best-customers-this-time-hadopi.shtml

1. Do you have any blog posts, articles, or anything from a developer expressing such a regret after berating pirates?

2. If I'm not mistaken, this article concerns big-name content associated with movies, music, and television, as do the other reports that the article links to. I'm not a media industry expert, nor do I have statistics at the ready, but I'd be willing to bet that just as the culture surrounding games is different from that surrounding "big content," the culture surrounding independent games differs still more from AAA title games. And thus the behavior of the indie game pirate cannot be judged the same way as someone who is trying to complete his collection of out-of-print Miles Davis recordings, or the 13-y/o girl downloading a Justin Beiber single.

Setting aside the implementation costs of what you suggest, the evidence that there is a piracy conversion rate anywhere near what you assume there to be remains extremely thin... and it still isn't worth potentially aggravating good customers for it.

[eRe4s3r]

It is my personal opinion, based on what I know of the environment in game development, take it or ignore it, based on your stance on my opinion, I am guessing the latter is the case. Just as I am not gonna say who uses this serial system... would be kinda defeating the purpose, if you know about it the developer did something wrong.

Setting aside the implementation costs of what you suggest, the evidence that there is a piracy conversion rate anywhere near what you assume there to be remains extremely thin... and it still isn't worth potentially aggravating good customers for it.

You still have not actually explained how a transparent serial protection would be "aggravating good customers". Maybe if you did that, we would not be writing in circles. Because I don't understand it. To me, doing nothing is worse than doing something that no customer would notice.

Apart from implementation "cost" although I highly doubt it would be much, considering the skill of Arcen's coders.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

It is my personal opinion, based on what I know of the environment in game development, take it or ignore it, based on your stance on my opinion, I am guessing the latter is the case. Just as I am not gonna say who uses this serial system... would be kinda defeating the purpose, if you know about it the developer did something wrong.

Setting aside the implementation costs of what you suggest, the evidence that there is a piracy conversion rate anywhere near what you assume there to be remains extremely thin... and it still isn't worth potentially aggravating good customers for it.

You still have not actually explained how a transparent serial protection would be "aggravating good customers". Maybe if you did that, we would not be writing in circles. Because I don't understand it. To me, doing nothing is worse than doing something that no customer would notice.

Apart from implementation "cost" although I highly doubt it would be much, considering the skill of Arcen's coders.

I guess that would be the thing to answer. Would this system be 100% completely foolproof, that in no way someone who legitimately bought a copy would be affected by this piece of software. If that is indeed so, then I haven't got a problem with it then. But I'm guessing based on Keith's comments that it is not so. That's just a guess though. And if there is something we know about software, it is often times buggy and prone to problems. Adding to that potential of those problems is probably not in Arcen's best interests, regardless of how good their coders are.

I do get your thoughts, that not putting in a form of DRM/protection is worse than putting one in. I don't agree with it though.

[doctorfrog]

1. It is my personal opinion, based on what I know of the environment in game development, take it or ignore it, based on your stance on my opinion, I am guessing the latter is the case. Just as I am not gonna say who uses this serial system... would be kinda defeating the purpose, if you know about it the developer did something wrong.

2. You still have not actually explained how a transparent serial protection would be "aggravating good customers". Maybe if you did that, we would not be writing in circles. Because I don't understand it. To me, doing nothing is worse than doing something that no customer would notice.

1. So you have no factual basis for saying this, in spite of claiming you knew of some developers who very quickly regretted dismissing pirates as non-paying customers.

2. Actually, I said "potentially aggravating good customers," which would occur if something went wrong with the system, or if good customers were turned off by even a benign form of DRM.

And the existence and success of Arcen Games, GOG, the Humble Bundles, and other indie efforts that deliberately eliminate DRM are sufficient proof that there is a demand for games that have no DRM of any kind. It's a selling point. People are attracted to it. I don't have to prove the negative.

That was secondary to the criticism of that point, which is that there is no evidence that sufficient pirates would be converted into customers to make your anti-DRM scheme, no matter how ingenious it may be, worth implementing.

Instead, there is evidence in this very thread that people were wooed by Arcen's stance against DRM, as it was a talking point in the early days of AI War's release, and also clearly a draw for some of the people here.

Finally, you are confusing "not implementing DRM" with "doing nothing about piracy." Using DRM is one way to combat piracy. Trusting your customers is not "doing nothing," it is fostering an environment of trust that some people appreciate (myself included). Offering a free unlockable demo is making the game more easily and safely available to potential customers, which for some is more attractive than going the grayer route of piracy. Explicitly stating your anti-DRM stance in press materials and interviews, as Chris has done, is actually anti-piracy, because it's saying something that a lot of other companies are not: it's saying, "I'm not treating you like a potential pirate." In short, being pro-consumer is a form of anti-piracy.

You keep saying that the current system is "bad," and that it "does nothing," but you are simply ignoring alternative strategies that have actually had a lot of thought put into them.

[keith.lamothe]

Trusting your customers is not "doing nothing," it is fostering an environment of trust that some people appreciate (myself included).

It isn't so much a matter of trust as respect.  I don't actually trust the average stranger very far (I trust the average person on these forums a lot more, but they're almost all already our customers, not strangers), but I do respect that if they actually are giving me money for a product I should really avoid anything that could actively reduce or prevent their enjoyment of the product.  Just courtesy, and common-sense when trying to sell something.

The current license key system is actually more annoying to the customer than I want it to be, due to the 5-key nature of installing a copy of AIW and all the expansions now.  I'm not sure what else could be done at this stage; I could write something where you could paste in all 5 keys back-to-back but that's not how steam gives it to you in the copy-paste window so it wouldn't really help the common user.

[eRe4s3r]

there is evidence in this very thread that people were wooed by Arcen's stance against DRM

No, the only evidence this thread offers is that most people can not read nor comprehend what DRM even is or what DRM is already in place, or why a better DRM would be less intrusive. Because a serial is DRM, 5 serials in 5 emails is sodding annoying DRM. And the described system could fix that too**However not as easily.

So you have no factual basis for saying this, in spite of claiming you knew of some developers who very quickly regretted dismissing pirates as non-paying customers

True. But why should I... I am hoping keith replies with update download numbers vs sales in a specific time-frame of the dates I listed. Unless you think I have a way to get interna on developers what I am saying is conjecture based on my own experience and observations.

Finally, you are confusing "not implementing DRM" with "doing nothing about piracy."

No I am calling a keygen that generates Steam reggable keys that's out for 2 years as "doing nothing about piracy". I am calling when that happens 5 times in a row "doing nothing about piracy" and I am calling not doing anything to prevent it in a future game "not doing anything about piracy"

You are obviously happy this is the case... I am not.

However, I see that there is no point to argue for an improvement of this serial system. I have about my fill of giving suggestions how to fix it. If you believe it needn't fixing, well... then I am even more bedazzled than before.

[doctorfrog]

I've never said anything about whether the current system needs fixing, only that your solution has issues that you refuse to see... maybe because you are bedazzled? And then you condescend to other folks in here because they don't see things the way you do.

As for my 'happiness,' I'm pretty thrilled with Arcen's stance on DRM, even if the implementation needs work. And the work it needs may or may not have anything to do with your ideas, or mine, even. But you don't have the One True Answer, and there are alternatives out there that you mark as 'bad' or 'wrong,' as though that is the end of it.

But yeah I'm done here too. For I am ASTONISHED.

[eRe4s3r]

So your alternative was what? Being happy that Arcengames does nothing while customers get their serials stolen?

Or let me rephrase it. What exactly is YOUR suggestion to the problem. Because you made it clear you don't like mine , even though it'd be less intrusive than the current implementation. (hence my confusion) In fact, Zespri made the first post and that is the industry standard. Everyone does this + what I described to protect their serials.

[TKilburn]

I did not think such a topic would reach such level of ignorance. This is quite sad.

Below is the correct sentiment when dealing with piracy.

Finally, you are confusing "not implementing DRM" with "doing nothing about piracy." Using DRM is one way to combat piracy. Trusting your customers is not "doing nothing," it is fostering an environment of trust that some people appreciate (myself included). Offering a free unlockable demo is making the game more easily and safely available to potential customers, which for some is more attractive than going the grayer route of piracy. Explicitly stating your anti-DRM stance in press materials and interviews, as Chris has done, is actually anti-piracy, because it's saying something that a lot of other companies are not: it's saying, "I'm not treating you like a potential pirate." In short, being pro-consumer is a form of anti-piracy.

You keep saying that the current system is "bad," and that it "does nothing," but you are simply ignoring alternative strategies that have actually had a lot of thought put into them.

Let me break this down for everyone, there are two types of pirates: challenging and vindictive.

Challenging Pirates are organized groups of people who are known to the scene (their own culture / ad-hoc organization). Such groups have dedicated suppliers of storage space and games. They pirate for the challenge of it. The harder/more restrictive the copy protection the more personnel and effort they will place towards pirating a game because they gain more reputation among the scene. They consider groups and games that do not pose a challenge unworthy.

Vindictive Pirates are customers who, by their own or collective judgment, feel that they have been wronged by a company. This usually is through having their game invalidated or not being able to play the game they bought due to a limitation and/or error with copy protection. In an act of spite, they pirate their game. This is usually accomplished via commercially available means as, most of the time, they lack the know-how Challenging Pirates have.


By not using CD key checks only Arcen avoids the Challenging Pirates because it is not enough of a challenge and avoids Vindictive Pirates because they do not have to integrate third-party software into their games. As they cannot control the quality of and can not reliable predict interactions between their game and such third party software.

No I am calling a keygen that generates Steam reggable keys that's out for 2 years as "doing nothing about piracy". I am calling when that happens 5 times in a row "doing nothing about piracy" and I am calling not doing anything to prevent it in a future game "not doing anything about piracy"

GGAAAhhhh make it stop!
Keygens exist for other games with DRM and online checks, they pass Steam too. Ask Bioware about how they like having all three of their Mass Effect games plus DLC keygened.

[eRe4s3r]

Good to know you are such an authority on piracy related truths ^^ And yay The first one to call me stupid Of course, you are not entirely wrong, but you didn't read the previous posts.. I never said that this can't happen as it happened for Mass Effect. Point was it can be prevented for X amount of time.

Challenging Pirates are organized groups of people who are known to the scene

THE scene? Welcome in 2012.. Firstly, there are 2 scenes (4 if you count usenet/irc separate) nowadays, some do, because there are even usenet and irc only release groups.

topsite scene -> These groups (or people) do it for the lulz (or challenge, as you put it) these are highly secretive, and they don't give a damn about anyone but their own rules and lulz. Their stuff is leaked by select few spreaders to high tier warez hubs or directly into p2p scene nowadays. Often it trickles down no matter what.

p2p scene -> Those groups (or people) do it to share warez as far as possible on public sites to as many people as possible, they crack for downloads, not for lulz. They often post under aliases directly on the big 2 warez boards or other channels (usenet, torrents, and the various true p2p clients). And they don't care what it is. They also make money. They also "steal releases" and spread them into other avenues if the original releaser does not.

As for pirates... vindictive pirates exist, but to think those and the scene releasers who do it for challenges are the only 2 groups of pirates.. well that is just very hilarious ;P But never-the-less, your less than correct post made me realize that a better serial is kinda pointless but for completely different reason than the one you proclaimed, it's simply that most of these pirates don't give a damn. For them a release only exists when it is there. If it isn't there, they don't care until it is. So you wouldn't ever get any of those to buy a game via DRM trickery.

There are (This is not the "casual piracy" crowd)

Majority# (ie, more than 99% of a site/board/channel are one or more than 1 of these categories)
x) Personal Interest pirates (various degrees). Those pirate everything in their field of interest (Music/Apps/ebooks/porn/games/movies/TV/packs etc...). Everything that flows through their reaches is pirated, doesn't matter who made it, what it costs, whether it's free or not. As long as they find it curious, or it is something they were looking for,or waiting for, they download it. They do it for lulz, morals, hate, play absolutely no part. They download because it's easy. Often their interests can be specific, or all enveloping.

x) Collectors (from lol to insane), these collect everything for the sake of collecting. All 720p movies, all TV shows, all games take your pick. They do it for lulz. Nearly all pirates are also collectors of some degree.

x) Sharers, those pirate something to fill requests on other locations. Altruism, personal recognition. No idea what drives them.

x) "out of principle" Haters, Hate specific companies and pirate everything from them, (you call them vindictive pirates..) Would never download anything else.

x) Special interest pirates, pirate anime/foreign movies and super rare stuff for which there is no legal avenue of obtaining it, or if, often in inferior quality. Which is not actually illegal most of the time.

By the way, casual piracy exists too, often focused on 1 thing that they absolutely must have but can't afford or don't want to afford but have. The 13yr girl downloading Justin Bieber songs is a good example of a casual pirate, those are completely irrelevant. They are the bottom feeders of the above mentioned social system of piracy.


Now let's get 1 thing out of the way. Would be proper secured serial prevent piracy? NO Would some hassle of extra serial security make some of those pirates I described above give a damn? NO Except, and ONLY, maybe, casual pirates. Those are the only ones.. I guess.

What is it good for?
1) Timed staged security to make 0-day piracy a pain
2) protection of bandwidth for updates
3) make patching a pain in the ass for pirates, just because you can.

And that's it. I guess I can understand that some people find this too little a reason to mess about with Arcengames stance on DRM.

However, as far as DRM goes, there are far better DRM methods that work... Anno 2070 (Ubisoft) comes to mind. Pirates lose 75% of the games features, there is no crack that "circumvents it"

[TKilburn]

Good to know you are such an authority on piracy related truths ^^ And yay The first one to call me stupid ...

What I posted is not overly complex nor difficult to understand. As a matter of fact it is quite generalized for the sake of expedience and broad understanding. If such is too complex for you than you have only yourself to fault.

Of course, you are not entirely wrong, but you didn't read the previous posts.. I never said that this can't happen as it happened for Mass Effect. Point was it can be prevented for X amount of time.

Cripes more ignorance, you have forgotten what I posted about Challenging Pirates? They are broadly defined as an organization with suppliers, they obtain the software to crack before everyone else.

But humor me for a minute, can you quantify what is the ideal X amount of time is? After all you have set a standard with a lack of data to accompany it.

THE scene? Welcome in 2012.. Firstly, there are 2 scenes (4 if you count usenet/irc separate) nowadays, some do, because there are even usenet and irc only release groups.

topsite scene -> These groups (or people) do it for the lulz (or challenge, as you put it) these are highly secretive, and they don't give a damn about anyone but their own rules and lulz. Their stuff is leaked by select few spreaders to high tier warez hubs or directly into p2p scene nowadays. Often it trickles down no matter what.

p2p scene -> Those groups (or people) do it to share warez as far as possible on public sites to as many people as possible, they crack for downloads, not for lulz. They often post under aliases directly on the big 2 warez boards or other channels (usenet, torrents, and the various true p2p clients). And they don't care what it is. They also make money. They also "steal releases" and spread them into other avenues if the original releaser does not.

As for pirates... vindictive pirates exist, but to think those and the scene releasers who do it for challenges are the only 2 groups of pirates.. well that is just very hilarious ;P But never-the-less, your less than correct post made me realize that a better serial is kinda pointless but for completely different reason than the one you proclaimed, it's simply that most of these pirates don't give a damn. For them a release only exists when it is there. If it isn't there, they don't care until it is. So you wouldn't ever get any of those to buy a game via DRM trickery.

There are (This is not the "casual piracy" crowd)

Majority# (ie, more than 99% of a site/board/channel are one or more than 1 of these categories)
x) Personal Interest pirates (various degrees). Those pirate everything in their field of interest (Music/Apps/ebooks/porn/games/movies/TV/packs etc...). Everything that flows through their reaches is pirated, doesn't matter who made it, what it costs, whether it's free or not. As long as they find it curious, or it is something they were looking for,or waiting for, they download it. They do it for lulz, morals, hate, play absolutely no part. They download because it's easy. Often their interests can be specific, or all enveloping.

x) Collectors (from lol to insane), these collect everything for the sake of collecting. All 720p movies, all TV shows, all games take your pick. They do it for lulz. Nearly all pirates are also collectors of some degree.

x) Sharers, those pirate something to fill requests on other locations. Altruism, personal recognition. No idea what drives them.

x) "out of principle" Haters, Hate specific companies and pirate everything from them, (you call them vindictive pirates..) Would never download anything else.

x) Special interest pirates, pirate anime/foreign movies and super rare stuff for which there is no legal avenue of obtaining it, or if, often in inferior quality. Which is not actually illegal most of the time.

By the way, casual piracy exists too, often focused on 1 thing that they absolutely must have but can't afford or don't want to afford but have. The 13yr girl downloading Justin Bieber songs is a good example of a casual pirate, those are completely irrelevant. They are the bottom feeders of the above mentioned social system of piracy.

So close yet so far! You are confounding a method of communication and distribution with culture, thus, demonstrating fundamental ignorance of sociology. A method of communication does not in and of itself create culture.

Now let's get 1 thing out of the way. Would be proper secured serial prevent piracy? NO Would some hassle of extra serial security make some of those pirates I described above give a damn? NO Except, and ONLY, maybe, casual pirates. Those are the only ones.. I guess.

A claim, a hypothetical scenario and no proof. Lets get crackin'.

What is a properly secured serial?
How and why would pirates not give a damn?

I want to see you exemplify your claims. Perhaps you might provide an analogue scenario.

What is it good for?
1) Timed staged security to make 0-day piracy a pain

Suppliers, how do they work?

2) protection of bandwidth for updates

That would actually work, of course which third party would have to be paid to distribute and host the patches? Badnwidth and storage server side is not cheap.

3) make patching a pain in the ass for pirates, just because you can.

If you are setting up a war of attrition you are doing it wrong. Pirates do not have to pay people to annually, companies do.

However, as far as DRM goes, there are far better DRM methods that work... Anno 2070 (Ubisoft) comes to mind. Pirates lose 75% of the games features, there is no crack that "circumvents it"

Look how little you actually know.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Ok, I'm done with this conversation, stepping out as it were. Mostly because of TKillburn (FYI: calling someone stupid only invalidates your argument).

Unfortunately this is just a thing where we are going to have to agree to disagree. Arcen is not doing nothing about piracy. Though for some reason eRe4s3r is ignoring what has been said on that subject. I sure wouldn't call Ubisoft's latest DRM a good idea on Anno 2070. Especially when it prevented a lot of people like me from buying it. Good job Ubisoft, you stopped the pirates and a percentage of your customers from buying. Truly, some great DRM right there.

Tired of people calling other people stupid. I expect better from people on this forum.

[tigersfan]

Up until recently, this conversation was fine. Discussion is fine, debate is fine, but we really need to not have the personal attacks please. I'll be watching this thread closely, please don't make me take any further action.

[eRe4s3r]

So close yet so far! You are confounding a method of communication and distribution with culture, thus, demonstrating fundamental ignorance of sociology. A method of communication does not in and of itself create culture.

You know what memes are? The internet creates culture simply because it IS, culture is not created without a method of communication that can carry it, it requires it. I ignore sociology and your statements relating to it however, because you are wrongly assuming people see the Internet as an equivalent of the real world (they do not, particularly pirates and assorted hardcore internet users). The "consuming" side of pirates are like a river flowing in an ocean of warez. Warez flows to them... they do not need to put ANY effort into getting warez (exceptions are maybe, if you are using filehosters, but then the effort is not related to finding warez, it is the getting it for free part thats the problem there ;P). This needs no proof, because if you ever were a pirate (sins of youth, or whatever) you know this.

What you are talking about are the actual core sources of warez and THEIR motivations (which are completely out of scope of any action whatsoever we could possibly commit to). And so that is not relevant. Indeed, no way we could annoy them.

you have forgotten what I posted about Challenging Pirates? They are broadly defined as an organization with suppliers, they obtain the software to crack before everyone else.

And those we do not want to annoy because there is no point, they will crack a game when it releases. Always. Unless they can't (Anno2070 is uncracked so far, Reloaded only enabled the offline mode, you can do that too without using a crack ,p)

A claim, a hypothetical scenario and no proof. Lets get crackin'.

What is a properly secured serial?
How and why would pirates not give a damn?

I want to see you exemplify your claims. Perhaps you might provide an analogue scenario.

I know I can not expect you to actually read what I post.. but no proof.. well, let's explain a last time

A properly secured serial is one that has at least a 2 stage fallback check system to maintain keygen security against proper validation. Proper validation meaning once that final stage is keygenned you fully expect valid serials to be keygenned, forever. Before that, only thing that's keygenned is access to 1 specific game version. Every major patch adds an additional (pre-chosen) check that all a developers valid serials already pass. However, the game itself only checks for additional checks when the developer chooses. The more checks hidden, the more resistance against keygens, each patch invalidates their keys and blacklists leaked ones.

And this brings me back to your previous statement

you have forgotten what I posted about Challenging Pirates? They are broadly defined as an organization with suppliers, they obtain the software to crack before everyone else.

Where you are partially wrong imo. Pirates get games from suppliers ON RELEASE. Rarely, and I mean, you have to actually have a cracking group with exceptional "gives a damn" ratings for that. They release cracked patches. And more often than not, that's only for steam games.

That would actually work, of course which third party would have to be paid to distribute and host the patches? Badnwidth and storage server side is not cheap.

Exactly, which is why you make patches so they have to be cracked and pirates have to distribute them themselves.

Suppliers, how do they work?

Are you asking or being sarcastic there? Supplies get their stuff mainly from steam nowadays. So the discussion (and any DRM including the serial) is at least in that regard pointless. As you can not do ANY serial trickery with steam. But in return steam patches need to be redistributed by pirates anyway. So those don't hurt at all In fact, if you go entirely steam only. Forget serials and make it account based.

I want to see you exemplify your claims. Perhaps you might provide an analogue scenario.

Scenario

You make game X it releases not on steam. You offer demo with serial unlock. Patches are secured with serial check (ie, checks when a serial was entered, whether that serial is blacklisted or failing one of your new checks). Only major patches have this.

Serials are generated with 5 checks that all serials you give out pass. These checks are inactive. Actual first serial check is the bare algorithm. All valid serials pass this check as well as billions of invalid ones. Keygens however, do not see any checks in place, generate keygen or leak serial. Both wanted. First off, day 0 piracy can not be prevented at all (i was being silly ,p) my point was you WANT that piracy, it is PR. It is the first showcase. It is a demo for pirates, except it is the full version. Nevermind that. first patch now comes out with 1 of the 5 checks in place sees pirates have invalid serials entered. Says "sucks to be you, no patch for you"

new keygen needed or new leaked serial needed (at this point, a serial that has to be bought).

Repeat as long as you have checks to spare. IN best case, every major patch needs a cracked patch, a keygen or a leaked serial. All of which is "annoyance" for pirates that you want. At this point we are talking 6+ months post release. Most pirate groups do not do "patch support" that long after release.

After all 5 checks are depleted, you remove all checks again and start making a new game. Or a new add-on ;p

@KingIsaacLinksr
Yeah, I didn't say Anno 2070 is friendly for the customer, but as far as DRM goes.. it does what it should and it does so pretty damn well. In fact, Ubisofts approach is pretty much teh ONLY drm scheme, apart from online games and account based serial registration. That is uncracked in teh sense that pirate get a better product and service.

And yes, I was ignoring what has been said on that subject, mainly because If I didn't the discussion would be dead

Anyhow, you needn't be stepping out just because someone calls me stupid I am certainly not going to reply in the same way, simply because I find this discussion quite fascination. For one, because I.. think I have a pretty good grasp of how piracy works. But I admit, the whole anti-drm stance is not my thing. I am too much a "creator" of content to think no protection or trust would work

[keith.lamothe]

TKilburn, I don't really agree with eRe4s3r, and I appreciate some lighthearted ribbing, but it would be difficult for me to estimate how much he has contributed to our games in terms of suggestions (particularly on the art side of things).  You may do many things here, but being wantonly disrespectful of other community members is not one of them.