Other > Game Development

Achron Suggestions / Criticism

(1/6) > >>

Kron:
Hi there, AI Warriors!

First of all, congratulations on the 4.0 release! I've been following AIW for quite a while now, and it fills me with glee that it's still getting such a huge influx of content! ^.^


The purpose of this thread is to discuss Achron, a game touted as the world's first "metatime strategy game". Hope you don't mind or get angry or something. ;_;

I see you've already got a thread for the game here, but the purpose of this thread is slightly different (suggestions, as opposed to discussion), which is also why I've placed it within a separate forum.

For those who haven't heard of the game before, here's the most recent alpha demo (released for the IGF).


Anyway, while the game is coming along nicely, I'd love to hear suggestions and criticisms from players of different games...


* First of all, if you're not used to the game and haven't been playing it for ages... you're likely to come up with some really new ideas. Creativity is the advantage of the uninitiated.
* Secondly, Achron is a game that can use suggestions ranging from direct modifications to the game... to mods! The Resequence Engine (that runs the time travel shenanigans) is separate from the game itself, and different games can be built on top.
Altogether, I'm fairly interested in hearing what the AI War community has to say about Achron. I know that RCIX and Moonshine Fox are members, but what about the rest of you guys?

Some final notes on computational constraints:


* Achron has gone with a Starcraft-style scale as opposed to a Total Annihilation / Supreme Commander-style scale due to the extreme costs involved with processing the entire timeline.

So, while I know that a lot of you probably love the grand scale (and consequent strategic focus) of a game like AI War with its thousands of units... that's really not possible with the Resequence Engine right now. Sorry.
* Here's a very rough approximation of what slows down the engine:

Processing overhead = Number of timewaves * Speed of timewaves * Number of units

Note that "timeline length" is not a parameter in that equation. While Achron may run on a timeline length of around 8 minutes, it's certainly possible to stretch that to 8 hours (basically, AI War timescales)... as long as each timewave is an hour apart. Make of this what you will...

Mánagarmr:
I'm actually ashamed to say I bought the game and played the alpha a couple of times but then dropped it. I'm not entirely sure it was due to my inability to grasp the time-aspect of it, or that I simply don't like small-scale strategy games. You mentioned Starcraft in your post, and in difference from most RTS fans, I really loathe Starcraft/Warcraft. I simply hate that absolute balance where the slightest mistake or misclick will immediately cost you the game and you get rushed in 24 seconds by some pimply 15 year old with no life (or a geniune RTS genius. The effect is the same for me).

I was always a fan of the grand scale and deliberate inbalance of units in TA (and subsequently SupCom and primarily FA), because it felt more real. I could devise actual strategies that involed a fake-attack on a certain area to draw attention and then send bombers or whatever to cripple my opponents economy, or do a quick assassination of the commander. It didn't involve the agonizing grind of plowing through enemy units, only to find that you miscalculated just the slightest and you are now counterswarmed and killed. Defences mean absolutely nothing as your defensive structures get plowed down in seconds while doing no (significant) damage.


I'm not saying that SC-type games are necessarily the way I explained above, only that that is my perception when I play them. Thus I have a natural antagony against them.

As for Achron: It's brilliant and a fantastic idea, but the early alphas/betas have not piqued my interest enough to keep me hooked. It's mostly been "okay, what the hell just happened? I won? I lost? Err..." which I think is mostly due to my inability to wrap my grey matter around the time aspect. For me it simply feels like an SC clone with a replay function, which I KNOW it isn't, but that doesn't help that I percieve it as such.

Regardless, I was intrigued by the idea and even though I may never play it again ( you never know ), I still feel my money was well spent as indie developers, particularly those with new and grand ideas, need all the help they can get.

On a last note: I actually have the latest alpha version downloaded. I haven't installed it yet though, but I was intending to test how far it has come since the last one I played. Been busy with the AI:War release, as you can no doubt tell from the credits list. Making the videos and testing countless of bugs have taken up the bulk of my spare time lately.

Kron:
Hi there, Moonshine! I'm actually planning on resurrecting your old intelligence-gathering thread right after this post! Small world. :3


--- Quote from: Moonshine Fox on October 27, 2010, 08:46:55 am ---I'm actually ashamed to say I bought the game and played the alpha a couple of times but then dropped it. I'm not entirely sure it was due to my inability to grasp the time-aspect of it, or that I simply don't like small-scale strategy games. You mentioned Starcraft in your post, and in difference from most RTS fans, I really loathe Starcraft/Warcraft. I simply hate that absolute balance where the slightest mistake or misclick will immediately cost you the game and you get rushed in 24 seconds by some pimply 15 year old with no life (or a geniune RTS genius. The effect is the same for me).

I was always a fan of the grand scale and deliberate inbalance of units in TA (and subsequently SupCom and primarily FA), because it felt more real. I could devise actual strategies that involed a fake-attack on a certain area to draw attention and then send bombers or whatever to cripple my opponents economy, or do a quick assassination of the commander. It didn't involve the agonizing grind of plowing through enemy units, only to find that you miscalculated just the slightest and you are now counterswarmed and killed. Defences mean absolutely nothing as your defensive structures get plowed down in seconds while doing no (significant) damage.
--- End quote ---

I completely agree with you. There's a bit of a divide in the RTS genre right now between "strategy games" and "actions per minute games".

I particularly don't like Starcraft 2, since it seems to have gone and embraced the dark side. I suppose I can cut them some slack since they're trying to manufacture an e-sport or something right from the ground up, so maybe they want fast-clicking 15 year olds...

(I've also recently managed to get my hands on Forged Alliance! I am so looking forward to playing it.)


However! I'd like to defend Achron from the assertion that it is basically Starcraft with a time slider.

The time slider changes a lot in the game. For example, say you rush an enemy base and juuust manage to take out a high-powered enemy unit because there was a gap in the enemy's defences.
... In a normal RTS like Starcraft, you grin and capitalize on your small victory, possibly escalating it into a crushing victory.
... In Achron, that gap in the enemy defences won't exist on the next timewave, since your opponent will have fixed his mistake. Your rush will crash and burn.

In Achron, you have to go one step further; you can't just defeat the enemy... you have to defeat the enemy's causal structure comprehensively. Tricks will earn you nothing, as the game isn't in an unstable equilibrium (like Starcraft and its ilk).

(I have posted a nauseatingly TL:DR guide on this subject here. Read it if you have way too much time on your hands...)


Furthermore, APM means a lot less in Achron. Next to nothing, in my experience. This is because of the chronoenergy mechanic.

The only moment in time you can spam commands is in the present. The slower you are at spamming commands, the more comfortably you can submerge yourself in the past. It's actually conceivable that players with low APM have an advantage over compulsive clickers this way.

The game falls into a more strategic rhythm of giving the right commands to the right units at the right moments in time... with some skill going into being prepared and setting up command hierarchies in advance.

Mánagarmr:
Yeah, and as I said, much of my "reluctance", if you can call it that, to delve into Achron stems from my perception. But now that things are calming down, I've been meaning to sit down with Achron and try to wrap my brain around it again :D Because as much as I might dislike this type of game, the idea is far too awesome to simply dismiss.

Kron:

--- Quote from: Moonshine Fox on October 27, 2010, 10:21:41 am ---Yeah, and as I said, much of my "reluctance", if you can call it that, to delve into Achron stems from my perception. But now that things are calming down, I've been meaning to sit down with Achron and try to wrap my brain around it again :D Because as much as I might dislike this type of game, the idea is far too awesome to simply dismiss.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Still, first impressions are important. Whether or not Achron is a good game, a great deal of its success will hinge on whether potential players will think it's a good game.

Normally, this comes down to complexity (players thinking they'll need PhDs in mathematics to play this game or something). This "It's like Starcraft, I don't like it" gut reaction is actually pretty new to me, and it fascinates me.

Do you have any suggestions for how we could make the game appear less APM-focused and more appealing? Most of our demo videos have primarily revolved around game mechanics... maybe we should make a "tactics" video too?

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page