Author Topic: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1  (Read 141819 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #210 on: March 30, 2013, 01:37:32 pm »
One man's work is another's play?
And vice versa, sometimes.

Enjoying work isn't a bad thing, where it gets weird is when the "work" is a purely virtual activity that doesn't accomplish anything a series of database commands (that take one millionth as long to create and execute) would.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #211 on: March 30, 2013, 01:46:49 pm »
But you see, if the main fun of a game is bashing monsters to get better loot, and you yourself acknowledge it is built in you have to grind ridiculous amounts of time or buy stuff to acquire said loot (not very fun)to bash those monsters, for a game that is a failing grade.

Games shouldn't ever be work.
This is absolutely a big part of why it should get a failing grade, which I'd peg as around 1-4 or so. 0 is like, E.T.
Also, bashing the monsters is actually pretty fun. Blizzard kinda nailed that in a way that, as long as you are actually doing decent damage, it's actually pretty fun to send them flying with tendrils of electricity stretching between their limbs and the ground.

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #212 on: March 30, 2013, 02:15:35 pm »
One man's work is another's play?
And vice versa, sometimes.

Enjoying work isn't a bad thing, where it gets weird is when the "work" is a purely virtual activity that doesn't accomplish anything a series of database commands (that take one millionth as long to create and execute) would.

Yep. I've been spending a lot of time with DCS Black Shark 2, a high fidelity simulation of a fairly unique Soviet era attack helicopter. Most of my friends think I'm insane when they find out just how much study and practice it takes to become combat effective. To them this sort of thing is the furthest thing from a game or an enjoyable experience, but when I uncage my Shkval on an OpFor tank and strike it down from 6km away and then slip away behind terrain features while contacting a FOB for more targeting data, I'm getting something I can't get anywhere else. But my friends think I'm insane.

Of course I think they are crazy with how they drop sixty bucks day one on the Tomb Raiders and Bioshock Infinites.


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #213 on: March 30, 2013, 02:26:31 pm »
(...) I'm getting something I can't get anywhere else.
That's a lot of what I'm going for in game design.  I don't have anything against people who are totally happy filling their gaming hours with Tomb Raider or BF3 or whatever.  But they don't need me ;)  AIW, on the other hand, scratches itches that pretty much nothing else does.  I dunno if we'll ever do a flight sim like you describe, but that general "serve a need that's not being served" idea is important to me.

But it's a pain to market ;)  So it's not all I'm trying to do, either.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #214 on: March 30, 2013, 04:09:19 pm »
All this discussion reminds me of is why I prefer to complete the games I review and not use a rating score. I also detest scoring reviews because it never gives a good impression of the game. Don't get me started on how effed up Metacritic is either..:
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Offline Panopticon

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #215 on: March 30, 2013, 05:08:45 pm »
(...) I'm getting something I can't get anywhere else.
That's a lot of what I'm going for in game design.  I don't have anything against people who are totally happy filling their gaming hours with Tomb Raider or BF3 or whatever.  But they don't need me ;)  AIW, on the other hand, scratches itches that pretty much nothing else does.  I dunno if we'll ever do a flight sim like you describe, but that general "serve a need that's not being served" idea is important to me.

But it's a pain to market ;)  So it's not all I'm trying to do, either.

Yeah, Arcen's approach to design is a big deal to me. I love what you guys are doing and your dedication to supporting your games. I'm not a big puzzle gamer but if I get that itch Tidalis is my fix. The Valley games are the kind of wild eyed blue sky development that I loved about the table top gaming scene of the eighties, with Valley 2 being really successful in pulling off its design. Shattered Haven is a lot of fun too with it's thoughtful and puzzley combat and progression. And AI War is the best RTS ever made in my opinion, and also one of the best asymmetric scenarios I've ever encountered which is a special button for me. You guys are definitely giving me stuff I can't get anywhere else.  :)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #216 on: March 30, 2013, 05:12:00 pm »
You guys are definitely giving me stuff I can't get anywhere else.  :)
Glad to hear it :)

And I think Exodus will do that too.  Whether or not we can market it effectively is actually going to be a harder problem than making the game itself, but in any event I think it will be a very uncommon (and possibly genuinely unique, but I don't know every game ever made) kind of gameplay that will appeal to a lot of folks.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #217 on: March 30, 2013, 06:54:42 pm »
And I think Exodus will do that too.  Whether or not we can market it effectively is actually going to be a harder problem than making the game itself, but in any event I think it will be a very uncommon (and possibly genuinely unique, but I don't know every game ever made) kind of gameplay that will appeal to a lot of folks.

Tossing my hat into the ring…successes and mistakes from previous trailers:

* Your first trailer should not have any inventory menu screens or complicated interface mechanics.
* The best AI War trailer I saw showed a gigantic battle.
* The worst trailer I saw was for Shattered Haven. It was dramatic phrases in giant letters with no real inclination on what the game was.
* Valley trailers improved over time, eventually showing the games action sequences and less stylized animation.
* You know how people who laugh at their own joke are kind of... yeah? It's the same way with showcasing your art. It's nice when you create something beautiful, but you are showing us a game, not an art show. The art should communicate the game, not the other way around.
* That being said, I wasn't one of the ones complaining about the art for any of the titles. This time around, I hope that you don't cater to people complaining about graphics. It kind of appeared to your core audience that you were offended by the whole thing, tried to fix it yourselves, and then hired an art team after that to please a bunch of people who are probably better off playing call of duty and don't know anything about more intellectual titles.  Not that Valley was that intellectual, but it certainly had more complex elements than the usual adventure title. These folks were never going to buy it to begin with.
* Your strength is in creating titles that are complex enough for gamers to chew on for some time. Why don't you sell that as part of your marketing? Not to come at people and say, "smart people play our games (and if you don't play them, you must be simple)," but to convey that challenge, creativity, and discovery are rewarded. A great example would be  Paradox. There's two things we know about paradox: they are terrible about bugs, they are amazing about complex gameplay. You should market your positive qualities as a studio.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #218 on: March 30, 2013, 07:35:00 pm »
* Your first trailer should not have any inventory menu screens or complicated interface mechanics.
Spreadsheet Simulator 2013!

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* The best AI War trailer I saw showed a gigantic battle.
In the Ancient Shadows one, or another?

Combat is usually good trailer material, yea.  For Exodus I'm not sure, as it will probably look like old-style JRPG combat (Dragon Warrior, or more recently Cthulu Saves The World, etc).  The interesting part comes in that any damage you take or ammo you spend... well, that's spent.  You can heal the damage (or at least some of it) using medkits (particularly if you have a good medic skill) but those are very finite too.  Though there is some normal healing over days of rest.  The ammo for the modern weapons is completely irreplaceable, though, so you have to choose when to go melee or use native ranged weapons to conserve.  And if there's some 4 story tall animal (or hostile offworlders in powered armor) coming at you, you don't want to be stuck with longbows.

Anyway, that's just one case where what's actually going on is (imo) pretty interesting, but how on earth do you trailer that?

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* The worst trailer I saw was for Shattered Haven. It was dramatic phrases in giant letters with no real inclination on what the game was.
Yea, we really went overboard on the story focus there.

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* Valley trailers improved over time, eventually showing the games action sequences and less stylized animation.
Yea, with Valley2 it does seem that people are getting some of the "what this game does that you can't get anywhere else" from the trailer.  At least, ongoing sales have been better than I would have expected were the trailer not accomplishing that.

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* You know how people who laugh at their own joke are kind of... yeah? It's the same way with showcasing your art. It's nice when you create something beautiful, but you are showing us a game, not an art show. The art should communicate the game, not the other way around.
Yea, we'll want to have enough in there so that people will have a clear idea of what style & quality of art to expect in the game (not just the cutscenes, but the gameplay itself), because I think that's one of the good things about the game... but if what the consumer want is a pretty looking game, there are better places they can go than us.  We're getting better on that, imo, but it's not our focus.
 
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* That being said, I wasn't one of the ones complaining about the art for any of the titles. This time around, I hope that you don't cater to people complaining about graphics. It kind of appeared to your core audience that you were offended by the whole thing, tried to fix it yourselves, and then hired an art team after that to please a bunch of people who are probably better off playing call of duty and don't know anything about more intellectual titles.  Not that Valley was that intellectual, but it certainly had more complex elements than the usual adventure title. These folks were never going to buy it to begin with.
The frustrating part is when it appears that no matter what we do, tons of people (and more than a few reviewers) will use the art in our games (and, by extension, the games themselves) as the conversational equivalent of restroom tissue.  While accepting basically zero responsibility to be accurate, fair, rational, etc.  When you realize as the producer of something that significant parts of the audience would derive more personal satisfaction from gloating over your failure than enjoying your success... that's not a pleasant thing, even without particularly high expectations going into it.

But that's probably not a solvable problem, nor a problem we absolutely have to solve.  So we're trying to not let it take up a disproportionate amount of our thought processes.

In the case of Exodus, I picked the art style because it's what I personally like.  I like anime a lot.  All the way back through my earliest favorite games.  Frankly, very little of the art in any of our other games is a major draw to me, except perhaps the AIW icons which kind of have grown on me.  Whether it was wise to pick a style for these reasons... well, we'll see.

We're also trying to avoid "getting in the way" of the art by requiring lots of animation or scaling or parallaxing or tiling or whatever.  This way we can afford to produce it at a higher quality because it's not having to do as many different things or work in so many different contexts.

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* Your strength is in creating titles that are complex enough for gamers to chew on for some time. Why don't you sell that as part of your marketing? Not to come at people and say, "smart people play our games (and if you don't play them, you must be simple)," but to convey that challenge, creativity, and discovery are rewarded. A great example would be  Paradox. There's two things we know about paradox: they are terrible about bugs, they are amazing about complex gameplay. You should market your positive qualities as a studio.
We certainly do want to lead with the hook.  Specifically for the game in question but also for us in general where it's applicable.

The big challenge I'm trying to wrestle with right now as far as the marketing is this: there's a lot of concepts in this game (including the largely Arcen-wide ones you mention) that, if we could somehow laser-beam them into the neural matrix of everyone who came to the game's store page, the game would probably do remarkably well.  But how do you concisely and compellingly communicate "Every round of offworld ammunition fired, every wound sustained, every medkit or power-pack used, every reputation-change from a choice, every bit of food gathered or eaten, every day spent... every consequence is permanent to your survival and your catching up to the Core before it's too late"?  I mean, I imagine that sentence is neat to some people, but if we tried to lead a trailer with it (verbatim, I mean)... well, I don't think that would work out very well.  So what do we say?  We're tossing around ideas internally, but feedback from you (and the rest of the folks here) is certainly welcome.  Though of course that will be easier when you can play the actual game.

And more generally the same problem exists when trying to communicate that we make thought-provoking games that reward creativity, discovery, etc.  Communicating that-we-do-that concisely and compellingly and (as you mention) non-condescendingly is actually in some ways more difficult than actually doing it ;)  Suggestions welcome.
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Offline Nonsense Syllable

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #219 on: March 30, 2013, 08:53:37 pm »
"An in-depth turn-based strategy where every decision counts."

That's probably a little too dry (even a bit cliche). The point I really want to make is that you don't want to overload that initial statement. Obviously you want your 'hook', but don't forget you will have the rest of the trailer to unpack exactly what that opening line means. It's hard to give suggestions without having played the game...

Not sure if the 'robots and dysentery' line is still being considered, but I would argue that it is not a strong line. It's funny, definitely, but only to those familiar with Oregon Trail, which a lot of people randomly browsing Steam/etc. won't be. Not only will they not get the joke, but it will fail its intended purpose of informing the viewer of the game's genre ("So this is the next Trauma Centre, right?").

Last, I'd actually argue that having some complex interface stuff in the trailer is not such a bad thing. Of course you do not want to alienate anyone, but you also want to make sure the game reaches its intended audience (people who appreciate strategy and complexity, who aren't afraid of some hardcore menufication).

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #220 on: March 30, 2013, 09:19:36 pm »
"An in-depth turn-based strategy where every decision counts."

That's probably a little too dry (even a bit cliche).

Yeah, very cliche. Could be said for most games on some level in broad terms.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #221 on: March 30, 2013, 09:25:55 pm »
"An in-depth turn-based strategy where every decision counts."

That's probably a little too dry (even a bit cliche). The point I really want to make is that you don't want to overload that initial statement.
True, and thanks for the suggestion.  We don't want it to be long, and this is about the right length. 

But we also have to avoid the cliche: isn't the quoted line a claim that a great many games make?  Granted, the "turn-based" part of the claim is rarer nowadays, but doesn't every strategy game claim that every decision counts?  Generally, every decision does count somehow in a strategy game.  We're trying to emphasize that it really can come down to the wire, and every round left in your offworld weapon's clip may make a difference at a critical moment, or that last energy bomb could get you past that last encounter... if you still have it.  Or that each choice can contribute to your reputation, which can make the difference between a particular enigmatic figure stepping in to save your rear-end at a crucial moment, or trying to crush you instead.

If you saw a game claim it was an in-depth strategy game where every decision counted, would you keep listening?  Would you even suspect it could mean the above?  Or would you think "well, yea, every strategy game has to claim that"?

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Obviously you want your 'hook', but don't forget you will have the rest of the trailer to unpack exactly what that opening line means.
Part of the problem is that we don't have the rest of the trailer unless that hook really grabs them.  The hook doesn't have to pack all that info in, but it has to pique their interest, get past that initial shell of anti-cliche defense and so on.

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It's hard to give suggestions without having played the game...
Fair enough ;)

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Not sure if the 'robots and dysentery' line is still being considered, but I would argue that it is not a strong line. It's funny, definitely, but only to those familiar with Oregon Trail, which a lot of people randomly browsing Steam/etc. won't be. Not only will they not get the joke, but it will fail its intended purpose of informing the viewer of the game's genre ("So this is the next Trauma Centre, right?").
That's a good point.  I think it's worth having in there somewhere toward the end (it is an awesome line) as a nod to one of the inspirations, but I think it is important to not primarily define this game in terms of another.  If we have to do that, I think we're fighting from a weak position and should change something so that's no longer true.

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Last, I'd actually argue that having some complex interface stuff in the trailer is not such a bad thing. Of course you do not want to alienate anyone, but you also want to make sure the game reaches its intended audience (people who appreciate strategy and complexity, who aren't afraid of some hardcore menufication).
That's what I'd think, but I'm not sure it would work.  Further-down-the-list screenshots showing the interfaces would good, I think.  I get alarmed when I see a strategy game whose store page refuses to give any visual evidence of what its interface looks like.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #222 on: March 30, 2013, 09:34:31 pm »
\We're trying to emphasize that it really can come down to the wire, and every round left in your offworld weapon's clip may make a difference at a critical moment, or that last energy bomb could get you past that last encounter... if you still have it.  Or that each choice can contribute to your reputation, which can make the difference between a particular enigmatic figure stepping in to save your rear-end at a crucial moment, or trying to crush you instead.


See, but that's confusing too. That sounds very, very roguelike in just how routine intense situations occur.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #223 on: March 30, 2013, 10:00:15 pm »
I just thought of a perfect tagline for your company:

"Arcen games, simple enough for a scrub, complex enough for an elitist!"


LOL

Oh right, laughing at your own jokes.  I'll just shut up now.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Exodus Of The Machine Teaser 1
« Reply #224 on: March 30, 2013, 10:02:55 pm »
\We're trying to emphasize that it really can come down to the wire, and every round left in your offworld weapon's clip may make a difference at a critical moment, or that last energy bomb could get you past that last encounter... if you still have it.  Or that each choice can contribute to your reputation, which can make the difference between a particular enigmatic figure stepping in to save your rear-end at a crucial moment, or trying to crush you instead.


See, but that's confusing too. That sounds very, very roguelike in just how routine intense situations occur.
Well, it's not "routine" in the sense that there won't be a ton of encounters where you need every advantage.  In one early encounter with some , for example, if you pass a difficult scout roll you can choose to initiate combat from long range.  If you use modern weapons at long range against the melee-only creatures in question... well, you're not taking any damage.  That's not a particularly intense situation.  But was it a wise use of irreplaceable ammo?

On the other hand you can choose to evade.  If you fail the stealth roll you're caught in melee range, but if you pass your stealth roll you're done with the encounter with absolutely no items or healthlost (unless you expended a one-use cloaking device to boost your stealth skill for the roll).  But nothing gained, either.  Stealthing too much puts a lot of points towards "weak" on the "strong/weak" reputation axis.  Being thought of as weak isn't going to kill you but it does close down some encounter options with some folks later on.  And if you kill the animals instead of stealthing you can salvage some meat for food (particularly if you pass a medic roll, representing knowing how to tell what meat is safe and what isn't).

(incidentally I'm considering providing some other incentive for stealthing, as it sounds like a bit of a raw deal right now)

Or if you fail your initial scout roll you don't get that long-range choice and you have to fight the animals.  How short-ranged the combat starts is up to how badly you fail the scout roll.

Anyway, that's actually not a very intense situation, relatively speaking ;)


All that said, yes, there's a very roguelike "feel" in that you've got very limited resources that are not really renewable, and if you run out of something critical you're probably going to lose the run.  But it's not roguelike in that there's no 2d top down grid, nor is there really a lot of freedom of movement (you're following a trail; there are some branching decisions but overall your destination is naturally determined by the thing you're chasing).  So it would be misleading to call this a roguelike.

So... much... to... communicate... *head explodes*
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