Author Topic: Tweak ... ?  (Read 1740 times)

Offline Teal_Blue

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Tweak ... ?
« on: September 30, 2013, 01:53:27 PM »
ok, so i am probably just getting used to the game, i have about 25 hours logged and i have been starting new games when the changes in a new version come out just to see how things work out.

Anyway, the bots are getting easier... i think.  And one thing i noticed during one of the early new missions, in 1 or 2 i think, the enemy bots just sit there and i would fire on one, fire on the next, the next, the next, the next ... for like 5 or 6 bots that were at the other end of the room and were alerted.

Now maybe i was just beyond their range, but it seemed rather weak to just have them sit there (game is on normal) So i thought i would ask if you would think of having the bots 'not' just stand there, and not continually advance when i'm in range, but to shoot!  :)

Sometimes i can take out a whole dozen, in the normal difficulty and this sort of bothers me. I mean, i'm not like a great player or anything, just careful, less rush in like i started. But anyway, I'll try the next difficulty up and see if that changes things and see if you can take a look at the normal difficulty and see what you think?

I mean, we want this accessible, right?  So making it harder might not be a really, really good idea. But we don't want it too easy either do we?

Just some thoughts,
Thank you for listening,
-Teal



Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2013, 01:58:47 PM »
Could you post a save of a situation like you're describing?  In general if you start shooting at a group of bots the others nearby should activate and move towards you, but I'm not sure what exactly you were running into (if they're far enough apart it's fine if they don't activate, etc).

Thanks :)
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2013, 02:10:18 PM »
will do, thank you for the help!


Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2013, 02:13:44 PM »
On a semi-related note, would it be possible to have some of the bots patrolling rather than just standing there? I'm guessing this is a no-no in terms adding lag to the game or something, though.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2013, 02:14:50 PM »
On a semi-related note, would it be possible to have some of the bots patrolling rather than just standing there? I'm guessing this is a no-no in terms adding lag to the game or something, though.
Up to Chris, but we discussed the topic at length earlier in the design process and the general idea was to avoid giving players a reason to stand there for a long time observing patrol patterns.  Though that was back when our inspirations were way more rainbow-six-like.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
On a semi-related note, would it be possible to have some of the bots patrolling rather than just standing there? I'm guessing this is a no-no in terms adding lag to the game or something, though.
Up to Chris, but we discussed the topic at length earlier in the design process and the general idea was to avoid giving players a reason to stand there for a long time observing patrol patterns.  Though that was back when our inspirations were way more rainbow-six-like.

If there is no technical problem then having some patrols would be vastly superior for me. It would bring the dungeons much more to life and create the illusion that these robots trundling around actually have some form of intelligence -- aside from dumbots, of course! Maybe I'm missing something, but seems like a no-brainer to me as long as it is not going to cause any significant lag. These robots really just stand perfectly still all the time until an intruder turns up....really?

Offline x4000

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 02:40:12 PM »
I'm semi okay with making them wander around, but you do have to remember that it will indeed cause quite a bit of non-literal lag in the sense that you are waiting for all those bots to do their animations.  There is also the issue of them stepping on mines and electric floors, opening doors, clearing out cover prematurely, and doing all sorts of other unpleasant stuff.

A simple algorithm would be to say:
1. If bot is not alerted, then "wander."
2. If wandering, look at all four adjacent tiles and see which ones are plain empty floor or other wander-valid tiles (not a hazard, not cover, not doors, etc).
3. If one or more of the adjacent tiles has an opening, then randomly choose between them.

Possible addendum would be to say "don't go back to the tile you were just on unless there is nowhere else to go."

Of course, then you get into problems with other certain bots, like EagleBots for instance.  They would have to have their wander logic suppressed.

All told, this could be interesting at some point, but I'm not sure it would add a huge amount, and could be pretty annoying in many ways.  I think that a week prior to release is not really the right time to toy with something like this.  Press are also getting their review copies starting today, and so this really isn't the time for that sort of thing in that sense.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2013, 03:00:33 PM »
Ok, maybe in the future then. I do personally think it would add a lot to the game. At the moment, the dungeons feel a bit lifeless unless you're actually engaged in combat. I'd really like to look at my sensors and think.... "where the hell do you think you're going....not on my watch, buster....KABOOM!".

As for the programming, I have every confidence that you could come up with a suitable algorithm. I don't really see how it would be annoying after the behaviour has been tweaked a bit, aside from the issue of potential lag. To reduce the lag problem, maybe limit the amount of patrolling bots to whatever maximum number produces a smooth game.

A week until release, though, yeah might not be a good idea to start coding this in at this stage, especially as the coding seems like a fair bit of work. I should have mentioned it a week ago really...oh well.


Offline x4000

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2013, 03:03:31 PM »
The coding itself isn't really that much work; it's a matter of defining behavior that is not annoying or problematic is really the thing.
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »
The coding itself isn't really that much work; it's a matter of defining behavior that is not annoying or problematic is really the thing.

Seems like that'd need a bit of iterating then. Feedback etc. Probably a terrible idea, but .... maybe open a dev branch with the new behaviour for testers to help you refine? That way you could maybe test it while not annoying players/press. To clarify, really just an idea... I know you're pressed for time with the release due very soon.

Offline x4000

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 03:18:52 PM »
We can't do any main branch releases while there is an open dev branch, so it would basically halt all other main branch improvements until we finished that. Can't really do that at the moment, and I think more than a week of testing is probably warranted here anyhow.  And given it took anyone this long to bring it up, I question how important it is, or if it's really a needed thing for sure, anyway.  Most roguelikes I have played do not have this feature.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 03:21:24 PM »
I think it would make a good conduct/extra-pain option for an expansion :)  I think the non-wandering behavior is a better default, but that the wandering is good for players who want the extra challenge of the dungeon taking some of the tempo control away from them.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 03:26:05 PM »
True, that's a good way to handle it. :)
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Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 03:27:54 PM »
We can't do any main branch releases while there is an open dev branch, so it would basically halt all other main branch improvements until we finished that. Can't really do that at the moment, and I think more than a week of testing is probably warranted here anyhow.  And given it took anyone this long to bring it up, I question how important it is, or if it's really a needed thing for sure, anyway.  Most roguelikes I have played do not have this feature.

It'd actually be interesting to see how many roguelikes (if any) do have a similar feature. You're right, if nobody else has brought it up, how important can it be? No worries.

Quote
I think it would make a good conduct/extra-pain option for an expansion :)  I think the non-wandering behavior is a better default, but that the wandering is good for players who want the extra challenge of the dungeon taking some of the tempo control away from them.

At least not doing it now potentially gives you something interesting to implement for a future expansion. Sounds good. Wandering bots + dead is dead... I'm sold.

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: Tweak ... ?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 03:28:51 PM »
I'm not sure wandering bots are the answer but perhaps increasing the sensor range for bots reacting would make things more challenging on normal difficulty, which is super easy at the moment.