Arcen Games

Games => Bionic Dues => Topic started by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 02:33:00 PM

Title: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
Ok, seems like things are shaping up pretty well :)

That said, I'm sure there are still issues all over the place, and specifically with part stats.

For this go round I'd like each of you to post your biggest complaint/concern/request/whatever about any of the player exo stats.  For reference those are:

Weapon-specific:
+%Attack
+%Ammo
+Range
+%Splash-radius

Shield-related:
+Shields
+Regen
+Damage-reduction

Propulsion-related:
+Stealth
+Overload
+Trap-skill

Computer-related:
+Sensors
+Hacking
+Virus
+Mines
+Sentry-turrets

Second-order:
+%Power-generation (exo-wide)
+%Attack (exo-wide)
+%Shield-related-stats (exo-wide)
+%Propulsion-related-stats (exo-wide)
+%Computer-related-stats (exo-wide)

Other:
+Power-generation
+Power-consumption
-Power Cost of other parts in same system


Or you may not have any significant issues with any of those, and you're welcome to say so :)  Feedback on other stuff is of course quite welcome in other threads and on mantis, just wanting to focus on the above here to make sure it doesn't get missed in the shuffle.

So anyway, basically anything related to those stats (balance, fun-value, UI representation, etc) is fair game :)

Thanks for the feedback!

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 27, 2013, 03:51:30 PM
+Trap-skill

Trap skill (and traps in general) are binary. Either you get hit, or you have trap skill > trap level and you don't.

While I don't think that needs changing for 1.0, in a future update I'd like to see there be more variability in this. A simple mechanism could look like this:

Traps have a 45 + 5*Level percent chance to hit you. Trap skill gives you 5*Skill avoidance. So a level 1 trap against an exo with no trap skill has a 50% hit chance. A level 10 trap would have a 95% chance. If you got 5 trap skill, it'd lower both of those by 25.

So trap skill above the trap level is still useful, whereas right now it's essentially wasted until the trap level catches up. Trap damage may need to be tweaked to accomodate it given that it'll be harder to get 100% avoidance, so that's why I think it might want to wait for post release.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 03:54:50 PM
I don't mind changing Trap Skill pre-1.0 if we can find a good solution here that y'all agree is a definite improvement.

FWIW it also boosts your sentries and mines (that is, your traps), and that's not binary.


But on the trap-avoidance function thing: is there more interest in a "x% chance to evade" mechanic or a "take x% less damage from traps" mechanic?

And do we want to keep it so that above a certain level of trap skill you're just immune to the traps on that level?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 03:56:05 PM
But let's also not laser-focus on addressing just trap-skill in this thread, as I would probably be prone to do :)  Others posting, please also indicate your biggest issue on the overall subject.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 27, 2013, 06:37:14 PM
But on the trap-avoidance function thing: is there more interest in a "x% chance to evade" mechanic or a "take x% less damage from traps" mechanic?

I'd go with evade. Damage reduction (and if you survive it, regen) are already doing the less damage thing. :) It also gives you a sense of risk if you have low (or no) evade but need to get over a square: do you take your chances?

Quote
And do we want to keep it so that above a certain level of trap skill you're just immune to the traps on that level?

Probably, although with the numbers I gave that is going to require significantly more trap skill than it does right now. The Ninja would still be able to do it with that bonus, assuming trap skill is still a propulsion stat.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Winge on September 27, 2013, 06:59:53 PM
TBH, I kind of like trap skill the way it is; I don't like rolling dice if I have to cross a square.  It's not a hard stat to come by, and you don't need much to be able to avoid traps.  Maybe make it so that it takes more skill to avoid traps.

Edit:  additional comments:
Regen seems to be in a pretty good place now.

Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.  I'd be curious to see what others think about these parts.

Need an Energy Weapon equivalent of the Nano-Rifled Barrel!  On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 10:30:51 PM
TBH, I kind of like trap skill the way it is
Fair enough.  I'm fine with changing it, but I don't want to simply change which half of the playerbase likes a feature, I'd like to actually increase the overall satisfaction :)

So it would help me for more of you to weigh in on the question of whether to change Trap-Skill from binary to %-chance-to-evade (or another alternative proposal, if you have one).  Or if your opinion is "I don't care which one you do" that's also good to know.  I guess I could start a poll ;)  But more discussion first, if anyone has any.


Quote
Regen seems to be in a pretty good place now.
Good to know, thanks :)


Quote
Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.
Ah, interesting.  If +%Computer is ok because of the Science exo, why is +%Propulsion not ok because of the Ninja exo?  Or are neither really ok?

Anyway, I could adjust the range those stats are given such that the lowest always gives you something decent.  All but one exo starts with 10+ stealth, so a +10% minimum boost ensures at least 1 point of stealth.  And Overload is pretty granular, so if you have any of that the propulsion boost will kick right in there.  TrapSkill is a bit sticky there, in that I think it starts at 4, so less than 25% boost isn't going to cut it there.  And of course 1 point of stealth isn't very impressive even for a mkI part.

So, the current range on +%Propulsion is 6% to 30%.  Would it seem appropriate to shift to 10% to 60%?  Or even 25% to 100%?  I don't want to make it way OP, obviously, but the numbers may just need to get pretty high to make it worrthwhile.

+%Computer is also 6% to 30%; does that need a boost too?  Maybe 10% to 40%?


Quote
Need an Energy Weapon equivalent of the Nano-Rifled Barrel!
Ah, true.  At this point it's probably better to just let the nano barrel be used on all weapons, to avoid the need to add new part types so close to release. 


Quote
On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...
Yea, it's actually neither.  It's a Big Glob Of Acid Weapon :)
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Winge on September 27, 2013, 11:02:54 PM
Quote
Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.
Ah, interesting.  If +%Computer is ok because of the Science exo, why is +%Propulsion not ok because of the Ninja exo?  Or are neither really ok?

Anyway, I could adjust the range those stats are given such that the lowest always gives you something decent.  All but one exo starts with 10+ stealth, so a +10% minimum boost ensures at least 1 point of stealth.  And Overload is pretty granular, so if you have any of that the propulsion boost will kick right in there.  TrapSkill is a bit sticky there, in that I think it starts at 4, so less than 25% boost isn't going to cut it there.  And of course 1 point of stealth isn't very impressive even for a mkI part.

So, the current range on +%Propulsion is 6% to 30%.  Would it seem appropriate to shift to 10% to 60%?  Or even 25% to 100%?  I don't want to make it way OP, obviously, but the numbers may just need to get pretty high to make it worrthwhile.

+%Computer is also 6% to 30%; does that need a boost too?  Maybe 10% to 40%?

I haven't played with the Ninja in a while; he might make the Propulsion Booster worthwhile.  It is probably more a matter of preference:  I'd much rather stack +% Attack, which allows me to actually kill enemies in Expert (very hard to do early on  :o  but that's what I get for playing Expert).  +% Shields allows a Brawler to tank (and it's even more fun with an Assault--win by running the enemy out of ammo!).  One other factor:  computer skills tend to have higher values than propulsion skills.  I'm curious to hear the opinions of other players as well.

One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?



Quote
On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...
Yea, it's actually neither.  It's a Big Glob Of Acid Weapon :)

Which adequately explains why I love it so much  >D
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 11:30:24 PM
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 28, 2013, 09:15:17 AM
The thing with the propulsion booster seems to be that boosting propulsion just isn't as useful as boosting other stuff is, due to the nature of the stats it has. Maybe that's okay. Not all loot has to be of equal value in a roguelite. :)

Just throwing an idea out there, but a way to make propulsion boosters more valuable might be to add a new propulsion stat:

Sneak Attack - Grant a % bonus to damage inflicted by any attack made while under Stealth.

Having a booster raise that is going to give every weapon more power if you burn a stealth action to fire.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 28, 2013, 10:25:29 AM
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?


I think it'd be a bit much for most of them.  While the propulsion stats dont increase very well, the other ones do, so adding even more effect to them is probably going overboard a bit.  Most of this sort of thing seems fiine as-is.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Winge on September 28, 2013, 10:27:28 AM
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?

But of course.  I'd rather you get opinions from other players too...I can be quite narrow minded at times.

In the meantime, I'll Ninja it up and see what I think.  I suspect that I will still prefer Attack Boosters...
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: chemical_art on September 28, 2013, 11:22:30 AM
Propulsion, great for selling am I right?  :D
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 28, 2013, 12:05:02 PM
Just throwing an idea out there, but a way to make propulsion boosters more valuable might be to add a new propulsion stat:

Sneak Attack - Grant a % bonus to damage inflicted by any attack made while under Stealth.

Having a booster raise that is going to give every weapon more power if you burn a stealth action to fire.
That would be good for an expansion, but for 1.0 I'm done adding stats unless there's a pretty critical need.  3 for propulsion, 3 for shields, and 5 for computer lines up nicely with the max number of slots per system :)


Anyway, yea, not all loot has to be equally valuable.  I'm certainly not going for some kind of knife's-edge balance.  But if +%Propulsion is slacking off, just boosting the numbers a bit will make it slack off a bit less, and I think that would be a good thing :)  What I'm looking for is what numbers would be better?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 28, 2013, 02:13:39 PM
Quick weight in, I like the balancing alot so far, but i'm getting rather good at surviving lots of missions... which leads me to believe that since i'm rather a noob most times on these games that the game is getting too easy. 

Anyway, i think the trap avoidance thing might be cool if it was a percent chance of it triggering or not. That way the traps aren't completely useless and i am completely unworried about them. If they are always a certain amount of dangerous, then i have to be more careful.

:)

-Teal

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Histidine on September 28, 2013, 02:34:27 PM
Trap skill is currently rather excessive; in my most recent Expert game I have 20 days left on the clock, I'm almost entirely ignoring the trap skill stat, yet my lowest trap skill is 34 (when traps are currently level 10). Aside from the numbers being generally high, too many things seem to carry it as a bonus.

Probability based traps might be a good way to introduce variance, although enemy traps aren't very common in general to begin with.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 28, 2013, 04:33:22 PM
That would be good for an expansion, but for 1.0 I'm done adding stats unless there's a pretty critical need.  3 for propulsion, 3 for shields, and 5 for computer lines up nicely with the max number of slots per system :)

Understood. :)

Quote
Anyway, yea, not all loot has to be equally valuable.  I'm certainly not going for some kind of knife's-edge balance.  But if +%Propulsion is slacking off, just boosting the numbers a bit will make it slack off a bit less, and I think that would be a good thing :)  What I'm looking for is what numbers would be better?

I don't think just more of it will really solve it. If you need attack to actually kill stuff, more propulsion doesn't make you not need attack. At the end of the day more stealth < killing things faster (which makes you need less stealth). Since it's really easy right now to get enough trap avoidance to ignore traps, that's not a big deal either unless you're using mines & sentries, and I don't think those go up fast enough to make you pick that over attack if that's your choice.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: windgen on September 28, 2013, 06:01:14 PM

> +Power-generation

I think the probability of rolling slave reactors / auxiliary reactors is a little on the low side.  In other words, those equipment types should be made a little more likely to occur as loot or store items.  I think having them occur twice as often as they currently do would go too far, bumping to 1.2-1.5 times as often would be better.

> -Power Cost of other parts in same system

I think the numbers being rolled for this stat are way too low, current values should be multiplied by 5 or even 10.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Winge on September 28, 2013, 07:27:07 PM
> +Power-generation

I think the probability of rolling slave reactors / auxiliary reactors is a little on the low side.  In other words, those equipment types should be made a little more likely to occur as loot or store items.  I think having them occur twice as often as they currently do would go too far, bumping to 1.2-1.5 times as often would be better.

Agreed, sometimes the only way for me to get one is to go to the store and hope I get lucky.  Even the Reactor Missions don't seem to grant them often.


> -Power Cost of other parts in same system

I think the numbers being rolled for this stat are way too low, current values should be multiplied by 5 or even 10.

I'm not sure about 5x to 10x; that would probably be too high.  I've seen -14 power to all parts on the same system...boosting it like that would make all other parts in the same system energy-free.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Histidine on September 29, 2013, 03:39:39 AM
Bulletproof exo is bulletproof
(http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13951.0;attach=7874)
The damage reduction stat bonuses on Hard and Expert might need toning down, though my Assault Exo is the only one with this kind of "immune to 80% of bot attacks" power by far...
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 05:13:26 AM
Bulletproof exo is bulletproof
The damage reduction stat bonuses on Hard and Expert might need toning down, though my Assault Exo is the only one with this kind of "immune to 80% of bot attacks" power by far...

I'm thinking that both reduction and regen need toning down.

They dont need to go down really super far, dropping both by half might do it, particularly since the player is likely to combine both when trying to go for a tanky build.

You also have a ton of shields there, too.  Enemy attack scaling changed if I recall correctly, what kind of damage are most foes doing? 

My own current Expert game is still early on, so I havent fully seen how they grow over time and how far it goes exactly.

Though, also, the Assault Exo's +50% to shield stats may need a bit of a nerf as well.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Histidine on September 29, 2013, 05:40:06 AM
what kind of damage are most foes doing? 
Very few do enough to overcome that Assault's damage resistance, although most can still hurt my other exos (second highest stat in that attached savegame is 143, on the Sniper; my Science has a pitiful 36). At a guess, 50-200 are the most typical values, with things like BlasterMaster, CannonBot and WyvernBot doing about 400-800. Note that this is with a rather wide level variance among the bots; WyvernBot is only level 7 while some are level >20.

About the only bots I've encountered (or have numbers for) that do appreciably more damage than my Assault has resistance are: RazorBot (level 15, 1469 damage), TigerBot (level 20, 1263 damage), TethysBot (level 23, 1332 damage), TreadBot (level 23, 3753 damage), PantherBot and GaffeBot. Of those, Tethys is a boss, and the others all have weaknesses that largely negate their firepower advantage (except TreadBot; that thing isn't a bot, it's an unstoppable force of nature).

Considering the player's defense seems to go up much faster than their firepower, it may be that the bot's HP and attack growth should have separate exponents (possibly replacing the boss/non-boss distinction; it's not really big enough to matter, and bosses should be scary anyway).

Though it should be noted again that the problem may well be entirely specific to the Assault Exo. Hell, it may be specific to this Assault Exo; that thing has two legendary and one epic shield item.
(although I have an older screenshot of getting it up to 388 damage resistance with no legendary items)
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 07:08:08 AM
Hm, I think you're right about the bot exponents, attack power and health should probably be seperate.   It does seem like their attack power is rising slowish, and that's on Expert; it's probably more of a problem on the lower difficulties.

Heck, in my game even my science bot can negate many attacks and actually has higher resistance than my Assault, AND it has good regen..  I dont think it's just the Assault being the problem.

If they're split, the attack exponent might do well to be put up near where it was before, perhaps.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 29, 2013, 07:11:28 AM
In the recent patch the exponents came down, AND damage reduction & regen numbers went up tremendously.

That's just too many things changing at once. The reduction and regen numbers coming back down some would help significantly.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 08:40:33 AM
Yeah, the difficulty definitely got a little warped with these changes.

Expert mode, Lion's Den missions should be very dangerous.  Particularly when they contain like 18 DoomBots, 20 zillion TreadBots (who are quite leveled up), and LeaderBots, among others.  SHOULD be dangerous.  Instead, they didn't have a chance.  Now granted, I also didn't allow myself to actually get hit by any of the Treads or Doombots.  Had a Treadbot shot one of my Exos, it'd have killed it instantly.  But still.  I only virused one thing, too, a DoomBot, which mostly ran around shooting HideBots until it ran out of ammo.  Absolutely tore through that mission.

Shield levels of enemies are doing decently.   Most, if not all, of the enemies in that mission required multiple shots from powerful weapons to take down quickly, so dealing with hordes fast enough to keep things from firing at me took careful use of all weapons.  Completely drained my Sniper and most of the Assault and Sniper's weapons as well.   Enemies that did get close enough, generally HideBots, Leaders, and Hunters, did 1 damage with each shot.... against any of the 4 Exos. 
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 09:34:03 AM
Ok, thanks, helpful info :)  I don't have time to get into the code at this moment but here are my plans, do these sound reasonable?

- Bring the exponents for bot attack power back up to what they were, leaving the shields alone.

- Bring the damage-reduction-multiplier on hard/expert from 2x/3x => 1.5x/2x.

- Bring the regen stat range down from 15/330 => 10/220 (had been 5/110 before).

Anything else to address that particular balance issue?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
And that Assault exo is totally insane ;)
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Histidine on September 29, 2013, 09:55:53 AM
Ok, thanks, helpful info :)  I don't have time to get into the code at this moment but here are my plans, do these sound reasonable?

- Bring the exponents for bot attack power back up to what they were, leaving the shields alone.

- Bring the damage-reduction-multiplier on hard/expert from 2x/3x => 1.5x/2x.

- Bring the regen stat range down from 15/330 => 10/220 (had been 5/110 before).

Anything else to address that particular balance issue?
I dunno if I'd bump the exponents up that high again, especially if the other two changes are implemented as well. Just a little bit lower. (On the other hand, we can probably afford to err on the side of challenge here.)

Okay, so current Hard/Expert non-boss exponents are 1.12/1.13; old ones were 1.16/1.19. On Expert, a level 20 bot would get the following multipliers:
^1.13: 11.5x
^1.19: 32.4x (2.81x current)
^1.16: 19.4x (1.69x current)
^1.17: 23.1 (2.01x current)

And for Hard:
^1.12: 9.64x
^1.16: 19.4x (2.01x current)
^1.15: 16.4x (1.69x current)

So yeah, a 69-100% increase to damage dealt coupled with a 25-33% decrease in the damage reduction stat should deal with the problem quite nicely.

With the change to damage resistance alone, the pictured Assault Exo's damage resistance will drop to 517, which is still rather higher than is healthy but quite a few more things will mess it up. I think a tank exo that ignores small arms fire should still be a viable build, as long as the pool of available anti-tank weapons isn't too small ;).

Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 10:34:38 AM

With the change to damage resistance alone, the pictured Assault Exo's damage resistance will drop to 517, which is still rather higher than is healthy but quite a few more things will mess it up. I think a tank exo that ignores small arms fire should still be a viable build, as long as the pool of available anti-tank weapons isn't too small ;).


I think the one problem with this is that number is still pretty darn high, and quite a number of enemies simply dont do that level of damage even when leveled up, even before the patch that changed their attack multiplier.  Missions that the RNG fills with that type of enemy, as it does sometimes, will be extremely trivial.  In some cases you could have a mission where you dont really HAVE to shoot anything at all, and can simply waddle past them to the exit.


One other problem that occurs to me is the regen itself.   The whole mechanic with the regen getting cancelled by more attacks almost never does anything.   Either you do get hit with something, but the regen remains overly strong and the thing you got hit with does little damage, or you just walk away from enemies for 5 turns, which isnt too hard to do in most situations.  So it's pretty darn easy to keep the regen going at maximum effectiveness.   As for what a solution to this might be.... I have no idea.   But it's something I've noticed pretty often and it can lower the difficulty quite a bit.  Particularly when the one getting hit also has a ton of shielding.


And as for all those numbers there.... yeah, I've got nothing for that.   Math of any sort is not my friend.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Pepisolo on September 29, 2013, 11:11:50 AM
Quote
I'm not sure about 5x to 10x; that would probably be too high.  I've seen -14 power to all parts on the same system...boosting it like that would make all other parts in the same system energy-free.

I agree, I'd like to see a buff, though. Maybe 2x to get the ball rolling? When you've got a 150 power consumption part, a -10 or less reduction in power seems a bit weak.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 12:56:44 PM
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: nas1m on September 29, 2013, 01:02:59 PM
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.
This sounds like the ideal solution to get regen back in check without nerfing it again - and create an additional tactical challenge along the way. Nice one! Supported :D.
EDIT: The damage reduction tweak sounds reasonable as well.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 29, 2013, 01:22:12 PM

With the change to damage resistance alone, the pictured Assault Exo's damage resistance will drop to 517, which is still rather higher than is healthy but quite a few more things will mess it up. I think a tank exo that ignores small arms fire should still be a viable build, as long as the pool of available anti-tank weapons isn't too small ;).


I think the one problem with this is that number is still pretty darn high, and quite a number of enemies simply dont do that level of damage even when leveled up, even before the patch that changed their attack multiplier.  Missions that the RNG fills with that type of enemy, as it does sometimes, will be extremely trivial.  In some cases you could have a mission where you dont really HAVE to shoot anything at all, and can simply waddle past them to the exit.


One other problem that occurs to me is the regen itself.   The whole mechanic with the regen getting cancelled by more attacks almost never does anything.   Either you do get hit with something, but the regen remains overly strong and the thing you got hit with does little damage, or you just walk away from enemies for 5 turns, which isnt too hard to do in most situations.  So it's pretty darn easy to keep the regen going at maximum effectiveness.   As for what a solution to this might be.... I have no idea.   But it's something I've noticed pretty often and it can lower the difficulty quite a bit.  Particularly when the one getting hit also has a ton of shielding.


And as for all those numbers there.... yeah, I've got nothing for that.   Math of any sort is not my friend.


Ok, I think i've got an idea, however i don't know how easy it will be to get it in place.

So, what we do is tie the enemy bot strength to a multiplier of the exo health, so, say i have a standard assault exo and go into a mission with only 40 to 120 on his guns and maybe 15 to 30 shields? Enemies could be buffed at 1.4 * of average Exo value, or 40% more than my exos. So the bots are always a bit over all of my exos.

If i walk into a mission with a decked out assault, or science, or whatever, then the formula stays the same, even though my assault has twice as much shielding and twice the guns as my lower exo before. So the enemies in this mission are still 1.4 * the average of my exos in the mission, still a bit over my exos. enough that my exos can't walk around un-intimidated.

(This is simplified for example, but what it would probably entail is adding all the strengths of the weapons and shielding and dividing by the number of exos of course to get the average for that 'team'. Or if that eats up too much time, then rough calculate.

Is the top gun for my team 120? Then give the enemy bots 40% over that, and don't worry about averaging any numbers at all, just take the highest value and adjust the enemy bots off that.)

Also if you want a 0.2 (20%) increase for each difficulty level, then that adds to what the exos have to deal with, no matter how buffed or tricked out they are.

This also has a benefit of not sledgehammering the lower difficulty levels to raise things for the harder levels, or the reverse also, of making things bearable for the lower difficulties and too easy for hard and expert.

This of course means not having values that are based how they are now. And i don't know if that will mess things up too much, or take too much time or whatever.

But hopefully it is something to think about, if its at all possible.

Just an idea,
-Teal

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 29, 2013, 01:27:10 PM
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.


This sounds workable, regen, but not too easy a regen.  :)  I like that!

-Teal

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 29, 2013, 01:31:51 PM
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.

Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

I'd actually like an even lower number (originally 50, but I'm thinking 75% now), but going to 90% is a good start.

Quote
On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.

That's going to be newbie hostile, because now we have to explain somehow that their regen stat doesn't work unless they spam the wait button. It also seems pretty annoying. The enemy is dead, and I want to walk over to where there's more, but first I need to stand here spamming wait?

That's kinda clunky. Maybe just extend the regen window so it goes more slowly to get the same results, making it harder to keep running and get to full all the time?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 29, 2013, 02:07:58 PM
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.

Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

I'd actually like an even lower number (originally 50, but I'm thinking 75% now), but going to 90% is a good start.

Quote
On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.

That's going to be newbie hostile, because now we have to explain somehow that their regen stat doesn't work unless they spam the wait button. It also seems pretty annoying. The enemy is dead, and I want to walk over to where there's more, but first I need to stand here spamming wait?

That's kinda clunky. Maybe just extend the regen window so it goes more slowly to get the same results, making it harder to keep running and get to full all the time?


I'm not entirely sure the change would be newbie hostile. I mean, there are any number of ways that games choose to handle damage and health. It is just a matter of playing with something and understanding the mechanic. If there is a tooltip that says you have to get off alone and be still to kick in regen, then players will do it. The ones that are going to bark about it are going to be the ones that did it in other ways and don't want it to change.

I have no problem with the change, though i might die, i will have to get used to the tactic and figure out ways to get a bot out to recover, perhaps a change-out and use another exo, and when the heat or battle dies down change back in, but make sure the exo is still for a bit to re-heal.

Thats just how i see it, but i could be biased you know,   :)
-Teal

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 29, 2013, 02:33:05 PM
I'm not entirely sure the change would be newbie hostile. I mean, there are any number of ways that games choose to handle damage and health. It is just a matter of playing with something and understanding the mechanic. If there is a tooltip that says you have to get off alone and be still to kick in regen, then players will do it. The ones that are going to bark about it are going to be the ones that did it in other ways and don't want it to change.

What tooltip, the one for the stat itself? They can't see it in combat, which is when they're going t wonder why it's not doing anything.

This is kind of like the previous idea of a "heal" skill, only instead of pushing that button once you push wait 5 times.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 02:47:40 PM
What tooltip, the one for the stat itself? They can't see it in combat, which is when they're going t wonder why it's not doing anything.
Well, if they haven't read the tooltip, where do they get their expectations of what it does?

Quote
This is kind of like the previous idea of a "heal" skill, only instead of pushing that button once you push wait 5 times.
True.  And it could just take 1 turn instead.

Anyway, what would you suggest?  The main issue I have with the current model is that apparently it's too easy to kite and regen at the same time.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 29, 2013, 02:58:47 PM
Well, if they haven't read the tooltip, where do they get their expectations of what it does?

The name itself implies it's going to regen. Right now it does that so long as they're not getting shot, so it's fairly easy to grasp what's going on without reading the tooltip (or reading it and forgetting it).

Quote
True.  And it could just take 1 turn instead.

Anyway, what would you suggest?  The main issue I have with the current model is that apparently it's too easy to kite and regen at the same time.

Depends on if you consider this a problem or not. IMO it's not that big a deal. You could lengthen the window of regen time so you have to kite farther.

Alternately you could make it not work while any enemy bots are on alert (virused ones wouldn't count). But plase don't make me sit there going "click click click click click" after every time I take damage.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Pepisolo on September 29, 2013, 04:19:24 PM
Personally, I haven't had any problems with regen. I've used it and haven't found it overpowered. I haven't found that I can walk away from enemies regularly -- they still shoot at you don't they if you try to walk away? You can use stealth and retreat, of course, but that is a drain on your stealth points. If regen is overpowered I'd prefer to see the numbers tweaked rather than the mechanic changed. The current mechanic in conjunction with the fighting game health bar works well for me.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 04:41:10 PM
Ok, if the kiting+regenning isn't seeming exploitable then I don't mind leaving it in.  Just trying to figure out what y'all are actually telling me here ;)
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 07:18:55 PM
Currently, I do think it's definitely exploitable in some ways.  On the occaision that my Exos actually do take a hit (or a few hits) that their crazy armor doesnt make them immune against, it can be a rather big hit.... and it just wont matter much.  I can finish off the enemy in question and then hit wait a few times to regen, or I can wander off and maybe stand behind a wall for a bit, which also has the effect of getting the enemy right where I want him, or I can just walk away entirely until regen finishes, and finally I can just stealth, move away, unstealth, and bam, regen.  And kiting specificallly is very easy to do: if you're on the edge of an enemy's range, which you often are if they're firing at you, you can just walk away and they're forced to keep walking instead of firing more, but if you're a bit further in their range, you only need to stealth for a couple of turns, get to the edge, unstealth, and THEN you can make them follow you.

But more than that it's the sheer strength of the damage reduction and regen that is the issue right now.  The mechanics are a bit exploitable, yes, but the numbers are also just too huge.  Heck, I'm not at all trying to focus on shield stats whatsoever with any of my team, but they've all ended up that way, pretty much invincible even against strong foes.  Most things simply cannot do any damage whatsoever and those few that do, the damage just gets healed after a couple of turns anyway.

Overall though, if the stats can be more brought into line, it could work out.  The stats are definitely the main problem here.   At the same time though, it should be a bit easier for bots to cause "permanent" damage to you.  I've found that that particular part of the mechanics just doesnt seem to go off much at all, which just makes it even easier to tank things.   Not that tanking things is a bad idea in concept, but it shouldnt be that simple to do and the tank should usually be left with SOME damage;  after all, that's what the Assault's often-largeish shield numbers are for.



On another note though, I also still think the Assault's 50% bonus to shield stats should be toned down.  It's not the only Exo that's gone all indestructible at the moment, but it's the one that can do it the easiest, definitely.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 07:50:20 PM
Ok, what % for the Assault shield bonus, then? 40%? 30%?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 07:55:53 PM
I was thinking 25%-30%.   Though, one of the others here who can do the math a bit better might have a different idea.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Pepisolo on September 29, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
I'd rather see the numbers tweaked a little before changing the mechanics. I can see how you might be able to kite by maintaining tight control of the distance to your enemy, but this is still forcing the player to adopt a very cautious and defensive style which maybe should be rewarded. Stealthing in and out of battle is absolutely fine by me in order to regen as doing this burns a lot of stealth points. I don't quite see how you can just wander off in order to regen. I've tried this and I just get obliterated by any bot with decent power although I do tend to just wade in.

That being said, I don't play this game to the level of other players on the forum, so I'm not really against changing the mechanics if there is a general feeling that doing so would prevent completely exploitable tactics. I do agree with Misery that the numbers are the main problem, though, so let's tweak those before making any drastic changes. The regen system I'm actually very impressed with so I'm a little worried that we might try and fix something that isn't broken by altering the mechanics.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 29, 2013, 08:04:19 PM
It is definitely based on playstyle to some degree;  I tend to play very carefully and am always considering position and distance, and I tend to pull small groups away from the main groups, and stuff like that.  So I'm usually in a position where I can make overly effective use of the current regen and such.  It indeed wouldnt work quite as well if you've got things coming at you from every direction all at once, but that's relatively rare, even in Lion's Den missions.  That playstyle seems rewarded well enough for being defensive as it is, as it tends to simply lead to not getting shot very often.

I forgot what else I was going to say.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Pepisolo on September 29, 2013, 08:12:07 PM
It is definitely based on playstyle to some degree;  I tend to play very carefully and am always considering position and distance, and I tend to pull small groups away from the main groups, and stuff like that.  So I'm usually in a position where I can make overly effective use of the current regen and such.  It indeed wouldnt work quite as well if you've got things coming at you from every direction all at once, but that's relatively rare, even in Lion's Den missions.  That playstyle seems rewarded well enough for being defensive as it is, as it tends to simply lead to not getting shot very often.

I forgot what else I was going to say.

Hmmm, I might have to switch to my permadeath playstyle (using house rules) and see what I think then. When I'm in permadeath mode I go excessively cautious, for obvious reasons. That's kind of why I like permadeath as it forces me to play uh.... properly.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 29, 2013, 08:16:32 PM
It sounds like the numbers probably shouldn't have been raised so much initially. What would dropping the damage reduction bonus by difficulty do, given the lower attack powers we have now?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Pepisolo on September 29, 2013, 08:29:56 PM
This is a strange and not very helpful way for me to provide feedback, but hey, brief comments for every stat in a stream of conc fashion.

Weapon-specific:
+%Attack -- No probs. Useful in customization.
+%Ammo -- Good for specializing in certain weps.
+Range -- Super useful. Probably the closest to being exploitable (if you outrange enemy there's nothing they can do). Still don't mind it personally.
+%Splash-radius -- Useful...maybe too useful. The rocket launcher is a BEAST stacked with radius. Actually, Rocket Launcher seems comparable to the Plasma Rifle, but with more ammo. Maybe a little OP?

Shield-related:
+Shields -- Don't pay much attention (surprisingly). Quite easy to make exos tanky if you choose to.
+Regen -- Use it. Exciting skill. No probs personally.
+Damage-reduction -- Boring. Don't pay much attention, but it seems to work anyway. Sometimes an enemy hits me and does minimal damage.

Propulsion-related:
+Stealth -- Fun. Tactical. Useful!
+Overload -- FUN! Not that useful, but I still love it. Especially the giant explosion on death you get.
+Trap-skill -- weird. Almost like a non-skill. I pay minimal no attention to it. The trap avoiding, anyway. Didn't know this affects trap placement also ...for some reason.

Computer-related:
+Sensors -- Yeah, useful.
+Hacking -- Useful, but boring. When is hacking ever 100%? Where's the "oh s**t they're onto me!!" (siren sounds) after failing a hack.
+Virus -- Useful. Entertaining results. Not much danger in using it. Could be chance of success based.
+Mines -- Use these when I'm in trouble to barricade myself away.
+Sentry-turrets -- Cool. Useful.

Second-order:
+%Power-generation (exo-wide) -- Seems OK.
+%Attack (exo-wide) -- Useful.
+%Shield-related-stats (exo-wide) -- Don't pay much attention, but sounds good, and it's clear what it does.
+%Propulsion-related-stats (exo-wide) -- Don't really know what this affects...stealth? (My own fault for not paying attention)
+%Computer-related-stats (exo-wide) -- Know exactly what it does. More loot hacks.

Other:
+Power-generation - Highly prized. Always look out for these in the shop.
+Power-consumption - Not highly prized.  ;)
-Power Cost of other parts in same system -- Try to use it cleverly, but seems a little weak. Also, much better in some systems than others (more slots the better of course).

Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Winge on September 29, 2013, 10:03:04 PM
I like regen as it is (mechanically speaking), but I could see either Regen or Damage Reduction stats going down a little bit.  Increasing the cap on Damage Reduction could work as well; right now, it's minimized at 1, which is a joke if you have any regen whatsoever.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 29, 2013, 11:26:26 PM
Maybe I just need to do the regen-only-works-on-wait change on Expert only ;)

Though having mechanics change between difficulties (rather than just numbers) is probably a no-no.

Maybe Regen should only happen when you kill an enemy ;)  Nah, that should just be a new separate mechanic in an expansion if we get to do one of those.

Anyway, I'm just gonna tweak numbers for now, and leave mechanics changes for later if there appears to be a need.  I certainly would like to avoid mechanics changes at this point if we can, and I think most of you feel that way too.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 30, 2013, 12:37:12 AM
Ok, I've put in the changes for 0.926 that came from this thread.  Might be some more, dunno, we'll see.  Anyway, for the moment this is the devestation y'all have wrought upon the game this time:

Quote
=== Parts/Stats Polish, Round 4 ===

* We're getting into the last stages of polish here, so trying to address pretty much any stat issue that's sticking out to players.  It will seem like a lot of change at once (which isn't great for isolating variables for observation)  and we generally take the "do a big change, then pick a middle ground if it was too much" approach rather than the "do a small change, then do another change in the same direction if it was too little" approach, at least at this stage in a game's life.  But please bear with us, we're making progress and we're still listening :)
** As usual, most of these changes have no impact on parts already generated in old saves.  But things like bot stats and inherent exo stats will generally change immediately, even in old saves.
** Thanks to Tridus, nas1m, Misery, Pepsisolo, Teal_Blue, Winge, Histidine, windgen, and others for inspiring these changes.

* The Nano-Rifled Barrel part can now go in any weapon, not just projectile weapons, as it is the only part with +attack as a primary stat.

* The robot stat growth exponents are now separate for shields and health, as shield levels were feeling fine on Hard/Expert after the last change to bring the exponents down, but the attack levels were feeling low.  So the attack exponents are now:
** Normal/Boss on Hard from 1.12/1.09 => 1.15/1.10 (numbers before last change were 1.16/1.10).
** Normal/Boss on Expert from 1.13/1.10 => 1.18/1.13 (numbers before last change were 1.19/1.13).

* Previously damage reduction had felt very underwhelming on Hard/Expert, so last time we added a 2x/3x to that stat on Hard/Expert.  Then it started feeling OP.  That's probably because of the attack exponents going down significantly at the same time, so since those are going back up it's probably not good to entirely remove the buff to damage reduction on those difficulties.
** So it's going from 2x/3x => 1.5x/2x.
** Also, damage-reduction can now only negate up to 90% of incoming damage; you can't use it to prevent the last 10% (that's still subject to regen, but you'll need more than a token regen to heal it, probably).

* Previously Regen felt underwhelming (under the recently introduced new model, at least) so last time we buffed its range of values from 5-to-110 all the way to 15-to-330, but that's seemed pretty OP.
** So now it's going from 15-to-330 => 10-220.

* Apparently at some time after the trap-skill values were last set the tile levels came way down (or maybe the trap skill values were just set wrong, dunno).  Either way, it's become trivially easy to get trap skill to 17, which is enough to dodge all traps on day 50.  So:
** Trap-Skill value from 3+level => 1+(level/3).  So the highest trap skill you can get on an item is now 9.
** Trap Skill now also occurs as a variant effect on fewer parts (all primarily-propulsion parts kept it, most others did not).

* +%Propulsion-related-stats has been feeling underwhelming since the three related stats (stealth, overload, and trap-skill) are relatively secondary compared to what +%Attack and +%Shield-related-stats can get you.  The same is true to a lesser extent for +%Computer-related-stats.  So:
** +%Propulsion-related-stats value range from 6%-to-30% => 12%-to-60%.
** +%Computer-related-stats value range from 6%-to-30% => 7%-to-35%.

* "-power cost of all parts in this system" has felt useful but ultimately underpowered for many for a while, so:
** Value from level => level*2.

* Power reactors continue to be harder to come by than is really quite fun, so their occurrence rates have been boosted 25%.

* High durability was too easy to get for pretty much all exos in the last version, but it was particularly egregious for the Assault Exo, so we're trying:
** Inherent boost to shield-related stats from +50% => +30%.

* +%AOE-radius has been pretty OP for a while.  It's also one of those "really hilarious when it's OP" things so we're not really itching to nerfhammer it.  Still, some adjustment should be made.  So:
** +%AOE-radius value range from 25%-to-100% => 25%-to-75%.

If you have any pre-emptive feedback or otherwise wish to chime in, please do so :)
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 30, 2013, 03:02:18 AM
Lessee....

Trap-skill:  Wont this impact mines and turrets too? That could be a bit of an issue.   On that note, turrets might do with a bit of a buff, as it's hard to get really any damage out of them, particularly when bots with somewhat decent attack values come by.  If those bots just look at the turrets in a funny way the damn things shatter in fear.   Even with high trap skill, which I usually have on my Science guy, these can be a little underwhelming.

And the AoE stuff.... one thing you could do is increase the rate at which damage drops as it gets further from the center of the blast.  I dont really think this would lower their usefulness at all, because one way or another you're getting free damage on potentially lots of foes, and probably outright killing at least a couple of them.  And if there's an ammo-refil station around you can usually feel free to fire more than one explody thing into the area.   The changes to that item type though sound good.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 30, 2013, 03:24:28 AM
@Misery: Fair enough on the turrets.

FWIW, what you're seeing in game right now is that the turret gets a boost to health and attack equal to 5+1.13^((trapSkill-3)/2) ... oh, wait, yea, you and math.  You've told me about that.

To put it more concretely, in 0.925 you get this much turret health at these levels of trap skill:

(one spreadsheet later)

Ew.  The numbers are actually laughably low.  You basically have to stack like 53 trap skill to cap out, and that's only a 26% boost to health.  Which is 78 extra points of health.  Whooptedo

Similar on the attack side.


Hmm. ok.

So I'm thinking of instead having trap skill give a flat +% boost per point.  Given that 9 on a single part will be endgame levels, how about +10% per point?  So a turret with one endgame trap-skill part backing it up is almost twice as durable and does almost twice as much damage.

Or is that still pitifully low?  Even with 3 end-game trap-skill parts that's only a quadrupling of power of something that isn't all that strong to start with.  Then again you get a ton of turrets by endgame so we don't want to go too nuts with the stats on the individual ones.

Put another way: how much more durable do you want endgame sentries to be than no-bonus sentries? And how much more offensively powerful?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 30, 2013, 03:39:13 AM
I'm thinking it's gonna take a bit of experimentation to get the numbers on those right.  With bot attack levels changing, and their health being different from how it used to be.  Obviously the turrets dont need to be doing the kind of damage a heavy weapon does, but nor should they be on the level of a light machine gun which takes many, many hits to kill anything. 

Hmm, what are the turrets' max stats for health and attack as they are now?  I dont think I used them all that much near the very end of the game, since they were scaling up really badly as it went on.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 30, 2013, 03:49:41 AM
Quote
mm, what are the turrets' max stats for health and attack as they are now?

Base stats for a sentry right now are 300 health and 120 attack.  If my math is correct in that the max boost you can get from trap skill is between 26% and 27%, then max health is 381 and max attack is 153.

Is that what you're seeing in your game?  Seems like if the numbers were bad someone would have said something.  Because that's worse than mines, probably.  Mines at least do some damage while they're walked over.


And yea, it will take experimentation, I'm just looking for first-guess numbers.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Histidine on September 30, 2013, 05:09:44 AM
Bots also gain range over time while sentries don't (soon outranging sentries quite handily unless you place them just around a corner), so letting sentries gain range with trap skill would be nice as well.

Considering the endgame bots will often have at least 5x their starting health and 10x their starting damage on Hard, even quadruple strength sentries doesn't sound particularly excessive.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 30, 2013, 05:54:01 AM
Quote
mm, what are the turrets' max stats for health and attack as they are now?

Base stats for a sentry right now are 300 health and 120 attack.  If my math is correct in that the max boost you can get from trap skill is between 26% and 27%, then max health is 381 and max attack is 153.

Is that what you're seeing in your game?  Seems like if the numbers were bad someone would have said something.  Because that's worse than mines, probably.  Mines at least do some damage while they're walked over.


And yea, it will take experimentation, I'm just looking for first-guess numbers.


Wow, that's the max stats?   Haha, and here I'd thought I just somehow wasnt managing to get enough trap-skill stats equipped.  I didn't think that was actually the max.  But yeah, that's..... way too low.  I can do plenty of damage with mines, particularly since you get like a zillion of them, but those turrets..... that wouldnt even scratch much of anything. 

Histidine is right, multiplying it by 4 or 5 wouldnt really be excessive.   Though, I'm thinking of the higher difficulties when I say that;  on lower ones, it's very different.  Might be a bit much on those since bots have much lower attack/shields?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Tridus on September 30, 2013, 07:40:38 AM
Given the way that the trap skill numbers work now, here's the health/attack numbers on sentries with 18 trap skill (two capped items) at various bonuses per point. Math might be off, it's early morning. :)

Bonus per trap skillHealth at 18TSAttack at 18TS
10840336
151110444
201380552
251650660
352190876

So I guess the question after that is just how beefy should turrets be? Their attack triples between the start and end of a game (nearly) at 10% per point, nearly quadruples at 15, and gets pretty nice on its own at 20. After that they're looking rather strong.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 30, 2013, 08:29:13 AM
The ones at 15 or 20 look about right to me, given the damage level and health of enemies around that time.  It's not too weak while not being too damaging either;  using multiple turrets at once would be the thing for stronger foes.
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 30, 2013, 12:15:33 PM
Ok, I think I'll have each point of trap skill give turrets:
+20% health
+20% attack
+0.5 range (so 1 range per 2 points... though maybe that's too much?)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Teal_Blue on September 30, 2013, 01:23:06 PM
I haven't tried the new version yet, so this may be a bit early to speak, but how about

+10% health
+10% attack
+0.25 range (so 1 range per 4 points... as an alternative to your higher stats?)

Just my opinion though,
-Teal


p.s.   now off to check out the new version.  :)



Title: Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
Post by: Misery on September 30, 2013, 07:54:56 PM
1 range for every 2 points might be a bit much.   Other than that, it should be fine, I think.