Author Topic: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3  (Read 4712 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2013, 12:56:44 PM »
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.
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Offline nas1m

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2013, 01:02:59 PM »
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.
This sounds like the ideal solution to get regen back in check without nerfing it again - and create an additional tactical challenge along the way. Nice one! Supported :D.
EDIT: The damage reduction tweak sounds reasonable as well.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 01:04:55 PM by nas1m »
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2013, 01:22:12 PM »

With the change to damage resistance alone, the pictured Assault Exo's damage resistance will drop to 517, which is still rather higher than is healthy but quite a few more things will mess it up. I think a tank exo that ignores small arms fire should still be a viable build, as long as the pool of available anti-tank weapons isn't too small ;).


I think the one problem with this is that number is still pretty darn high, and quite a number of enemies simply dont do that level of damage even when leveled up, even before the patch that changed their attack multiplier.  Missions that the RNG fills with that type of enemy, as it does sometimes, will be extremely trivial.  In some cases you could have a mission where you dont really HAVE to shoot anything at all, and can simply waddle past them to the exit.


One other problem that occurs to me is the regen itself.   The whole mechanic with the regen getting cancelled by more attacks almost never does anything.   Either you do get hit with something, but the regen remains overly strong and the thing you got hit with does little damage, or you just walk away from enemies for 5 turns, which isnt too hard to do in most situations.  So it's pretty darn easy to keep the regen going at maximum effectiveness.   As for what a solution to this might be.... I have no idea.   But it's something I've noticed pretty often and it can lower the difficulty quite a bit.  Particularly when the one getting hit also has a ton of shielding.


And as for all those numbers there.... yeah, I've got nothing for that.   Math of any sort is not my friend.


Ok, I think i've got an idea, however i don't know how easy it will be to get it in place.

So, what we do is tie the enemy bot strength to a multiplier of the exo health, so, say i have a standard assault exo and go into a mission with only 40 to 120 on his guns and maybe 15 to 30 shields? Enemies could be buffed at 1.4 * of average Exo value, or 40% more than my exos. So the bots are always a bit over all of my exos.

If i walk into a mission with a decked out assault, or science, or whatever, then the formula stays the same, even though my assault has twice as much shielding and twice the guns as my lower exo before. So the enemies in this mission are still 1.4 * the average of my exos in the mission, still a bit over my exos. enough that my exos can't walk around un-intimidated.

(This is simplified for example, but what it would probably entail is adding all the strengths of the weapons and shielding and dividing by the number of exos of course to get the average for that 'team'. Or if that eats up too much time, then rough calculate.

Is the top gun for my team 120? Then give the enemy bots 40% over that, and don't worry about averaging any numbers at all, just take the highest value and adjust the enemy bots off that.)

Also if you want a 0.2 (20%) increase for each difficulty level, then that adds to what the exos have to deal with, no matter how buffed or tricked out they are.

This also has a benefit of not sledgehammering the lower difficulty levels to raise things for the harder levels, or the reverse also, of making things bearable for the lower difficulties and too easy for hard and expert.

This of course means not having values that are based how they are now. And i don't know if that will mess things up too much, or take too much time or whatever.

But hopefully it is something to think about, if its at all possible.

Just an idea,
-Teal

« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 12:57:00 PM by Teal_Blue »

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2013, 01:27:10 PM »
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.
Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.


This sounds workable, regen, but not too easy a regen.  :)  I like that!

-Teal


Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2013, 01:31:51 PM »
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.

Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

I'd actually like an even lower number (originally 50, but I'm thinking 75% now), but going to 90% is a good start.

Quote
On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.

That's going to be newbie hostile, because now we have to explain somehow that their regen stat doesn't work unless they spam the wait button. It also seems pretty annoying. The enemy is dead, and I want to walk over to where there's more, but first I need to stand here spamming wait?

That's kinda clunky. Maybe just extend the regen window so it goes more slowly to get the same results, making it harder to keep running and get to full all the time?

Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2013, 02:07:58 PM »
Another possibility is not letting damage reduction reduce incoming damage below a certain amount, say 10% of original damage (like AI War and many other games do). But that still has to work against massive, massive HP pools and regen.

Does anyone object to the max-90%-reduction-from-damage-reduction idea?

I'd actually like an even lower number (originally 50, but I'm thinking 75% now), but going to 90% is a good start.

Quote
On Regen we may need to work something else out.  Perhaps it gets delayed by movement... or anything, really.  So you have to literally use the Wait action to trigger it?  But perhaps it then also works even if you took damage that turn, rather than waiting an additional turn to kick in.

Thoughts?  The idea being that if you can dodge out of battle to regen, that's fine, but you'll have to actually stand still (while any alerted bots are catching up to you) to get your shields back.

That's going to be newbie hostile, because now we have to explain somehow that their regen stat doesn't work unless they spam the wait button. It also seems pretty annoying. The enemy is dead, and I want to walk over to where there's more, but first I need to stand here spamming wait?

That's kinda clunky. Maybe just extend the regen window so it goes more slowly to get the same results, making it harder to keep running and get to full all the time?


I'm not entirely sure the change would be newbie hostile. I mean, there are any number of ways that games choose to handle damage and health. It is just a matter of playing with something and understanding the mechanic. If there is a tooltip that says you have to get off alone and be still to kick in regen, then players will do it. The ones that are going to bark about it are going to be the ones that did it in other ways and don't want it to change.

I have no problem with the change, though i might die, i will have to get used to the tactic and figure out ways to get a bot out to recover, perhaps a change-out and use another exo, and when the heat or battle dies down change back in, but make sure the exo is still for a bit to re-heal.

Thats just how i see it, but i could be biased you know,   :)
-Teal


Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2013, 02:33:05 PM »
I'm not entirely sure the change would be newbie hostile. I mean, there are any number of ways that games choose to handle damage and health. It is just a matter of playing with something and understanding the mechanic. If there is a tooltip that says you have to get off alone and be still to kick in regen, then players will do it. The ones that are going to bark about it are going to be the ones that did it in other ways and don't want it to change.

What tooltip, the one for the stat itself? They can't see it in combat, which is when they're going t wonder why it's not doing anything.

This is kind of like the previous idea of a "heal" skill, only instead of pushing that button once you push wait 5 times.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2013, 02:47:40 PM »
What tooltip, the one for the stat itself? They can't see it in combat, which is when they're going t wonder why it's not doing anything.
Well, if they haven't read the tooltip, where do they get their expectations of what it does?

Quote
This is kind of like the previous idea of a "heal" skill, only instead of pushing that button once you push wait 5 times.
True.  And it could just take 1 turn instead.

Anyway, what would you suggest?  The main issue I have with the current model is that apparently it's too easy to kite and regen at the same time.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2013, 02:58:47 PM »
Well, if they haven't read the tooltip, where do they get their expectations of what it does?

The name itself implies it's going to regen. Right now it does that so long as they're not getting shot, so it's fairly easy to grasp what's going on without reading the tooltip (or reading it and forgetting it).

Quote
True.  And it could just take 1 turn instead.

Anyway, what would you suggest?  The main issue I have with the current model is that apparently it's too easy to kite and regen at the same time.

Depends on if you consider this a problem or not. IMO it's not that big a deal. You could lengthen the window of regen time so you have to kite farther.

Alternately you could make it not work while any enemy bots are on alert (virused ones wouldn't count). But plase don't make me sit there going "click click click click click" after every time I take damage.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2013, 04:19:24 PM »
Personally, I haven't had any problems with regen. I've used it and haven't found it overpowered. I haven't found that I can walk away from enemies regularly -- they still shoot at you don't they if you try to walk away? You can use stealth and retreat, of course, but that is a drain on your stealth points. If regen is overpowered I'd prefer to see the numbers tweaked rather than the mechanic changed. The current mechanic in conjunction with the fighting game health bar works well for me.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 04:34:37 PM by Pepisolo »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2013, 04:41:10 PM »
Ok, if the kiting+regenning isn't seeming exploitable then I don't mind leaving it in.  Just trying to figure out what y'all are actually telling me here ;)
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Offline Misery

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2013, 07:18:55 PM »
Currently, I do think it's definitely exploitable in some ways.  On the occaision that my Exos actually do take a hit (or a few hits) that their crazy armor doesnt make them immune against, it can be a rather big hit.... and it just wont matter much.  I can finish off the enemy in question and then hit wait a few times to regen, or I can wander off and maybe stand behind a wall for a bit, which also has the effect of getting the enemy right where I want him, or I can just walk away entirely until regen finishes, and finally I can just stealth, move away, unstealth, and bam, regen.  And kiting specificallly is very easy to do: if you're on the edge of an enemy's range, which you often are if they're firing at you, you can just walk away and they're forced to keep walking instead of firing more, but if you're a bit further in their range, you only need to stealth for a couple of turns, get to the edge, unstealth, and THEN you can make them follow you.

But more than that it's the sheer strength of the damage reduction and regen that is the issue right now.  The mechanics are a bit exploitable, yes, but the numbers are also just too huge.  Heck, I'm not at all trying to focus on shield stats whatsoever with any of my team, but they've all ended up that way, pretty much invincible even against strong foes.  Most things simply cannot do any damage whatsoever and those few that do, the damage just gets healed after a couple of turns anyway.

Overall though, if the stats can be more brought into line, it could work out.  The stats are definitely the main problem here.   At the same time though, it should be a bit easier for bots to cause "permanent" damage to you.  I've found that that particular part of the mechanics just doesnt seem to go off much at all, which just makes it even easier to tank things.   Not that tanking things is a bad idea in concept, but it shouldnt be that simple to do and the tank should usually be left with SOME damage;  after all, that's what the Assault's often-largeish shield numbers are for.



On another note though, I also still think the Assault's 50% bonus to shield stats should be toned down.  It's not the only Exo that's gone all indestructible at the moment, but it's the one that can do it the easiest, definitely.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 07:26:46 PM by Misery »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2013, 07:50:20 PM »
Ok, what % for the Assault shield bonus, then? 40%? 30%?
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Offline Misery

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2013, 07:55:53 PM »
I was thinking 25%-30%.   Though, one of the others here who can do the math a bit better might have a different idea.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2013, 07:56:44 PM »
I'd rather see the numbers tweaked a little before changing the mechanics. I can see how you might be able to kite by maintaining tight control of the distance to your enemy, but this is still forcing the player to adopt a very cautious and defensive style which maybe should be rewarded. Stealthing in and out of battle is absolutely fine by me in order to regen as doing this burns a lot of stealth points. I don't quite see how you can just wander off in order to regen. I've tried this and I just get obliterated by any bot with decent power although I do tend to just wade in.

That being said, I don't play this game to the level of other players on the forum, so I'm not really against changing the mechanics if there is a general feeling that doing so would prevent completely exploitable tactics. I do agree with Misery that the numbers are the main problem, though, so let's tweak those before making any drastic changes. The regen system I'm actually very impressed with so I'm a little worried that we might try and fix something that isn't broken by altering the mechanics.