Author Topic: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3  (Read 4714 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« on: September 27, 2013, 02:33:00 PM »
Ok, seems like things are shaping up pretty well :)

That said, I'm sure there are still issues all over the place, and specifically with part stats.

For this go round I'd like each of you to post your biggest complaint/concern/request/whatever about any of the player exo stats.  For reference those are:

Weapon-specific:
+%Attack
+%Ammo
+Range
+%Splash-radius

Shield-related:
+Shields
+Regen
+Damage-reduction

Propulsion-related:
+Stealth
+Overload
+Trap-skill

Computer-related:
+Sensors
+Hacking
+Virus
+Mines
+Sentry-turrets

Second-order:
+%Power-generation (exo-wide)
+%Attack (exo-wide)
+%Shield-related-stats (exo-wide)
+%Propulsion-related-stats (exo-wide)
+%Computer-related-stats (exo-wide)

Other:
+Power-generation
+Power-consumption
-Power Cost of other parts in same system


Or you may not have any significant issues with any of those, and you're welcome to say so :)  Feedback on other stuff is of course quite welcome in other threads and on mantis, just wanting to focus on the above here to make sure it doesn't get missed in the shuffle.

So anyway, basically anything related to those stats (balance, fun-value, UI representation, etc) is fair game :)

Thanks for the feedback!

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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2013, 03:51:30 PM »
+Trap-skill

Trap skill (and traps in general) are binary. Either you get hit, or you have trap skill > trap level and you don't.

While I don't think that needs changing for 1.0, in a future update I'd like to see there be more variability in this. A simple mechanism could look like this:

Traps have a 45 + 5*Level percent chance to hit you. Trap skill gives you 5*Skill avoidance. So a level 1 trap against an exo with no trap skill has a 50% hit chance. A level 10 trap would have a 95% chance. If you got 5 trap skill, it'd lower both of those by 25.

So trap skill above the trap level is still useful, whereas right now it's essentially wasted until the trap level catches up. Trap damage may need to be tweaked to accomodate it given that it'll be harder to get 100% avoidance, so that's why I think it might want to wait for post release.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 03:54:50 PM »
I don't mind changing Trap Skill pre-1.0 if we can find a good solution here that y'all agree is a definite improvement.

FWIW it also boosts your sentries and mines (that is, your traps), and that's not binary.


But on the trap-avoidance function thing: is there more interest in a "x% chance to evade" mechanic or a "take x% less damage from traps" mechanic?

And do we want to keep it so that above a certain level of trap skill you're just immune to the traps on that level?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 03:56:05 PM »
But let's also not laser-focus on addressing just trap-skill in this thread, as I would probably be prone to do :)  Others posting, please also indicate your biggest issue on the overall subject.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 06:37:14 PM »
But on the trap-avoidance function thing: is there more interest in a "x% chance to evade" mechanic or a "take x% less damage from traps" mechanic?

I'd go with evade. Damage reduction (and if you survive it, regen) are already doing the less damage thing. :) It also gives you a sense of risk if you have low (or no) evade but need to get over a square: do you take your chances?

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And do we want to keep it so that above a certain level of trap skill you're just immune to the traps on that level?

Probably, although with the numbers I gave that is going to require significantly more trap skill than it does right now. The Ninja would still be able to do it with that bonus, assuming trap skill is still a propulsion stat.

Offline Winge

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 06:59:53 PM »
TBH, I kind of like trap skill the way it is; I don't like rolling dice if I have to cross a square.  It's not a hard stat to come by, and you don't need much to be able to avoid traps.  Maybe make it so that it takes more skill to avoid traps.

Edit:  additional comments:
Regen seems to be in a pretty good place now.

Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.  I'd be curious to see what others think about these parts.

Need an Energy Weapon equivalent of the Nano-Rifled Barrel!  On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...

« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 07:06:31 PM by Winge »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 10:30:51 PM »
TBH, I kind of like trap skill the way it is
Fair enough.  I'm fine with changing it, but I don't want to simply change which half of the playerbase likes a feature, I'd like to actually increase the overall satisfaction :)

So it would help me for more of you to weigh in on the question of whether to change Trap-Skill from binary to %-chance-to-evade (or another alternative proposal, if you have one).  Or if your opinion is "I don't care which one you do" that's also good to know.  I guess I could start a poll ;)  But more discussion first, if anyone has any.


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Regen seems to be in a pretty good place now.
Good to know, thanks :)


Quote
Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.
Ah, interesting.  If +%Computer is ok because of the Science exo, why is +%Propulsion not ok because of the Ninja exo?  Or are neither really ok?

Anyway, I could adjust the range those stats are given such that the lowest always gives you something decent.  All but one exo starts with 10+ stealth, so a +10% minimum boost ensures at least 1 point of stealth.  And Overload is pretty granular, so if you have any of that the propulsion boost will kick right in there.  TrapSkill is a bit sticky there, in that I think it starts at 4, so less than 25% boost isn't going to cut it there.  And of course 1 point of stealth isn't very impressive even for a mkI part.

So, the current range on +%Propulsion is 6% to 30%.  Would it seem appropriate to shift to 10% to 60%?  Or even 25% to 100%?  I don't want to make it way OP, obviously, but the numbers may just need to get pretty high to make it worrthwhile.

+%Computer is also 6% to 30%; does that need a boost too?  Maybe 10% to 40%?


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Need an Energy Weapon equivalent of the Nano-Rifled Barrel!
Ah, true.  At this point it's probably better to just let the nano barrel be used on all weapons, to avoid the need to add new part types so close to release. 


Quote
On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...
Yea, it's actually neither.  It's a Big Glob Of Acid Weapon :)
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Offline Winge

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 11:02:54 PM »
Quote
Most of the +X% to a type of stat (weapon, shield, etc) are pretty good, but I feel that +X% to Propulsion is lacking.  I think this is due to the fact that most of the stats it boosts are already small, and need whole number bonuses.  Adding half of a stealth point or trap skill doesn't really do anything.  +X% to Computer stats has a similar problem, but it works well on the Science Bot.
Ah, interesting.  If +%Computer is ok because of the Science exo, why is +%Propulsion not ok because of the Ninja exo?  Or are neither really ok?

Anyway, I could adjust the range those stats are given such that the lowest always gives you something decent.  All but one exo starts with 10+ stealth, so a +10% minimum boost ensures at least 1 point of stealth.  And Overload is pretty granular, so if you have any of that the propulsion boost will kick right in there.  TrapSkill is a bit sticky there, in that I think it starts at 4, so less than 25% boost isn't going to cut it there.  And of course 1 point of stealth isn't very impressive even for a mkI part.

So, the current range on +%Propulsion is 6% to 30%.  Would it seem appropriate to shift to 10% to 60%?  Or even 25% to 100%?  I don't want to make it way OP, obviously, but the numbers may just need to get pretty high to make it worrthwhile.

+%Computer is also 6% to 30%; does that need a boost too?  Maybe 10% to 40%?

I haven't played with the Ninja in a while; he might make the Propulsion Booster worthwhile.  It is probably more a matter of preference:  I'd much rather stack +% Attack, which allows me to actually kill enemies in Expert (very hard to do early on  :o  but that's what I get for playing Expert).  +% Shields allows a Brawler to tank (and it's even more fun with an Assault--win by running the enemy out of ammo!).  One other factor:  computer skills tend to have higher values than propulsion skills.  I'm curious to hear the opinions of other players as well.

One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?



Quote
On a somewhat related note, is the Dissolver considered an Energy Weapon?  It looks like it can't use either Energy or Projective Weapon parts...
Yea, it's actually neither.  It's a Big Glob Of Acid Weapon :)

Which adequately explains why I love it so much  >D
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 11:30:24 PM »
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 09:15:17 AM »
The thing with the propulsion booster seems to be that boosting propulsion just isn't as useful as boosting other stuff is, due to the nature of the stats it has. Maybe that's okay. Not all loot has to be of equal value in a roguelite. :)

Just throwing an idea out there, but a way to make propulsion boosters more valuable might be to add a new propulsion stat:

Sneak Attack - Grant a % bonus to damage inflicted by any attack made while under Stealth.

Having a booster raise that is going to give every weapon more power if you burn a stealth action to fire.

Offline Misery

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 10:25:29 AM »
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?


I think it'd be a bit much for most of them.  While the propulsion stats dont increase very well, the other ones do, so adding even more effect to them is probably going overboard a bit.  Most of this sort of thing seems fiine as-is.

Offline Winge

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 10:27:28 AM »
One possibility for those boosters:  allow them to get stats that are normally limited to that system.  For example, allow Computer Boosters to have Mines or Sentries, and Propulsion Boosters to have Stealth or Overload.  It would boost the power of those parts, but it might be too much.

Thoughts?
We could do it, sure, though I removed the cross-pollination of those stats at Chris's explicit request so I'd need to clear it with him.  Anyone else think it would be a good thing to add to those parts?

But of course.  I'd rather you get opinions from other players too...I can be quite narrow minded at times.

In the meantime, I'll Ninja it up and see what I think.  I suspect that I will still prefer Attack Boosters...
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 11:22:30 AM »
Propulsion, great for selling am I right?  :D
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2013, 12:05:02 PM »
Just throwing an idea out there, but a way to make propulsion boosters more valuable might be to add a new propulsion stat:

Sneak Attack - Grant a % bonus to damage inflicted by any attack made while under Stealth.

Having a booster raise that is going to give every weapon more power if you burn a stealth action to fire.
That would be good for an expansion, but for 1.0 I'm done adding stats unless there's a pretty critical need.  3 for propulsion, 3 for shields, and 5 for computer lines up nicely with the max number of slots per system :)


Anyway, yea, not all loot has to be equally valuable.  I'm certainly not going for some kind of knife's-edge balance.  But if +%Propulsion is slacking off, just boosting the numbers a bit will make it slack off a bit less, and I think that would be a good thing :)  What I'm looking for is what numbers would be better?
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance/Polish, Round 3
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 02:13:39 PM »
Quick weight in, I like the balancing alot so far, but i'm getting rather good at surviving lots of missions... which leads me to believe that since i'm rather a noob most times on these games that the game is getting too easy. 

Anyway, i think the trap avoidance thing might be cool if it was a percent chance of it triggering or not. That way the traps aren't completely useless and i am completely unworried about them. If they are always a certain amount of dangerous, then i have to be more careful.

:)

-Teal