Part Stats Balance, Round 2

[Tridus]

It's hardly all-in when it only requires my computer slots on one exo. I still have three more, and all my guns on all four which aren't affected and get their own upgrades.

I could do it on three of them and still even have hacking in a science exo. I'm not giving up much in exchange to be able to virus entire maps.

[chemical_art]

Again, it sounds like you are able to do so with default stealth values. I think that should be examined, or rather, the ease in which one can get into point-blank range to virus.

Do virus actions break stealth? They should unless {epic} ninja.

[Tridus]

You could before,mbut it may have changed with the shooting from stealth. Doesn't really matter anyway, 600 virus points on the ninja is more than enough to wipe out a typical level. It's like the plasma cannon maxed AoE again, only slower.

[Teal_Blue]

If the 212 on a standard exo (is it the science? or ninja?) is too much for a single part, and as you say you can stack several parts on the exo, then perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is too much.

Chemical Art, am i understanding that you were asking about looking at making getting next to bot to virus them should be looked at? In other words, maybe make stealth more difficult? That might be interesting too, if it isn't a sure thing.

Maybe something like a stealth scanner on 'some' enemy bots that can see through the stealth? Something like that might make getting next to a bot harder.

Or have each move of the exo, maybe every three to ten moves? be calculated at a certain possibility of success? (not to much as it might throw too many calculations at the game) but what that could mean, is every 3 to 10 moves i get a new roll of probable success for 100% stealth effectiveness. Next roll what if i get 10% and am spotted on the second square i move to?

These are just ideas and may be too much work to get to. Simplest mechanic would be to not give so many stealth or virus points, or up the number needed for different bots so that our chances stay where they currently are, or lower.

Just some thoughts,
-Teal

[Tridus]

212 is the normal number, it'd be 318 on a science. An epic science could still virus a murderbot even with that 999 virus modifier cost.  It's not really worth doing that, but it's doable. It should come down to more like the hacking point numbers,which would let you do a few bots per part instead of double digits per part.

[Teal_Blue]

Your suggestion sounds reasonable to me, so that the ability is several bots per mission but certainly not all of them.
That would mean using other strategies in the mission to win, like weapons, or mines or sentries, or whatever...

[Tridus]

Your suggestion sounds reasonable to me, so that the ability is several bots per mission but certainly not all of them.
That would mean using other strategies in the mission to win, like weapons, or mines or sentries, or whatever...

Or load up your exo with multiple virus parts. I carried 3 on my epic ninja earlier in the alpha and virused lots of stuff. 5 TigerBots on your side can do a LOT of damage. (Let alone what one DoomBot does...)

It's just the max one part can have, not an exo maximum. Multiples stack, and if you can virus 15 bots with a single exo you're going to get a huge swing in your favor, on top of that exo's guns. Ninjas happen to be the best at it because they can also stack a lot of stealth, which makes using the viruses safer. But if you can lure stuff to you and virus it that way, a Science bot would have 50% more virus points.

I used sentries on my Assault and mines on my Siege, so each one had some kind of special thing.

[Teal_Blue]

sounds like a good strategy, using different specials on each exo.

[Misery]

On the note of the virus points, yeah, 200 is way too much per one part.    A max of 100 sounds much more reasonable.

I do think some base costs for virus points per enemy bot need to be changed, though.   I dont think the actual mechanics of how viruses work needs to be changed at all, after having experimented with it quite a bit, but some bots are definitely more powerful/useful than others when it comes to this.  DoomBots, CommandBots, er...... blanking out on robot names here, I havent been awake long.... but various bots need to be a bit higher in cost.   I dont think they need to be utterly ridiculous when it comes to cost... for example nobody is really going to virus something if it costs 100 or 120 points at mid-game, however useful it might seem.   

I think having the base virus level always be just 5 plus the robot level is part of the problem here.  Bot should probably have specific base values in addition to that.   That CommandBot, for instance;  give him a base of, say, 30 or 40.   At mid-game he'd be potentially around 50-65 to virus, which sounds more reasonable for that particular bot, wheras in my current game (where I am halfway through), the CommandBot is about.... 20-ish, to virus?  Too easy to get him.  Same with various other bots.

If a bot is either very strong, or provides a useful special effect, it should be expensive to virus.   I should have to consider the costs carefully;  do I take this really strong bot, that has lots of attack power or provides such-and-such special effect yet costs 70 points, or do I try to grab multiple smaller, simpler bots for the same total cost, giving the enemy more targets they must shoot at and more distraction?   Choices like that are what should be happening here with this mechanic.


This is all based on Expert mode, this feedback, so that's worth keeping in mind, probably.   But yeah, I think the actual mechanics of virusing stuff is perfect, but the costs are definitely not.   And 200 points coming offa 1 part is definitely too much.


As for viruses breaking stealth, I dont really think that'd need to be the case if those per-bot costs are corrected.  One of the reasons virusing even works at all, particularly on expert, is BECAUSE it doesnt break stealth.   Many situations where a virus is needed would basically REQUIRE an Exo sacrifice if that was the case.   Perhaps instead, actions that dont break stealth could have a higher stealth cost, such as perhaps taking 5 points away on that turn instead of always just 1. 

[chemical_art]

I'm still of.the opinion that if one is able  to virus 15 Bots, the problem is not virus,'the problemoblem is being able to stealth virus 15 units to start with.

[Teal_Blue]

Quote - "Many situations where a virus is needed would basically REQUIRE an Exo sacrifice if that was the case.   Perhaps instead, actions that dont break stealth could have a higher stealth cost, such as perhaps taking 5 points away on that turn instead of always just 1. " - Misery -



That sounds very reasonable. I didn't think an exo sacrifice would be necessary, But i haven't played enough games to know positively, but you may be right. But i suppose the question might then be, is a sacrifice of an exo something that is going to cost me the game? If i am not losing any exos at all on a regular basis, then perhaps
having missions where i lose several, or even missions that i lose all of them, then that would cause some tension in whether or not i can pull off the end game mission to win the game. Which might make things very fun!

Does that seem reasonable? I'm don't want to suggest making things crazy hard, but making it so it isn't a cake walk might make it more interesting, and perhaps more rewarding as well when we make it through it?

 And I suppose as long as the virus numbers doesn't make the game too easy, or makes getting through a mission impossible. then that is probably what everyone wants from the viruses and stealth abilities anyway.

Anyway, i'm just thinking out loud, i could be completely wrong in how it all feels under playing conditions, its a little too easy for me to think something might not be a big deal, when in fact in the game it might be a very big deal. 

Anyway, thank you for listening,


-Teal

[Misery]

Well, some of it definitely will depend on both the difficulty level chosen, and the player's individual playstyle, since there's generally alot of ways to approach things.

In my experience, on Expert, I can only stealth-virus so many bots not because of a lack of virus points, but because the stealth is necessary in order to not die, and there's only so much of it.  I find alot of strategic uses for it that dont involve viruses, so it gets used alot and the remaining count goes down very fast.  Other players though may be using different tactics, so they seem to have too much stealth count instead of never enough.

And of course all those different playstyles and the huge variety of situations the game can produce just makes this that much tougher to balance....

For now, increasing virus costs on bots is the best suggestion I have.


.....and I forgot what else I was going to say.  Yay!

[Winge]

Again, it sounds like you are able to do so with default stealth values. I think that should be examined, or rather, the ease in which one can get into point-blank range to virus.

Do virus actions break stealth? They should unless {epic} ninja.

I found out the answer to this by accident:  http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12617.  Not only does Virus not break stealth, it doesn't even cost a stealth action point right now--definitely a bug.

That said, it can be relatively easy to get close to enemies multiple times, sometimes without stealth.  A lot depends on the map.  On a map with lots of cover, I may be able to grab a DoomBot without even using stealth...I just cower behind boxes until the DoomBot charges in.  Corners can be used similarly, although you will typically need to spend 1 Stealth Action Point to avoid taking a hit.  The weaker 'buff bots' can be captured with no stealth if your virus bot has decent regen (one reason I like to make my Assault Exo my virus carrier).

Is that good or bad?  I don't know.  It might just be that bots need fewer starting stealth points, so that using them for a difficult virus conversion is that much more costly from the player's perspective.

[chemical_art]

Again, it sounds like you are able to do so with default stealth values. I think that should be examined, or rather, the ease in which one can get into point-blank range to virus.

Do virus actions break stealth? They should unless {epic} ninja.

That said, it can be relatively easy to get close to enemies multiple times, sometimes without stealth.  A lot depends on the map.  On a map with lots of cover, I may be able to grab a DoomBot without even using stealth...I just cower behind boxes until the DoomBot charges in.  Corners can be used similarly, although you will typically need to spend 1 Stealth Action Point to avoid taking a hit.  The weaker 'buff bots' can be captured with no stealth if your virus bot has decent regen (one reason I like to make my Assault Exo my virus carrier).

Seeing that stealth is always a one shot method of eliminating threats, it is true that hiding around corners can allow it to be abused.

I can see a few ways to get around it: (not, not all would be used at the same time)
Stronger enemies 2 turns before infection. Strongest enemies need 3 turns. Maybe unable to stealth during this time.
Using virus will stealthed breaks stealth
Using virus while stealth caused extra "stealth points" to be used up

[Tridus]

Seeing that stealth is always a one shot method of eliminating threats, it is true that hiding around corners can allow it to be abused.

I can see a few ways to get around it: (not, not all would be used at the same time)
Stronger enemies 2 turns before infection. Strongest enemies need 3 turns. Maybe unable to stealth during this time.
Using virus will stealthed breaks stealth
Using virus while stealth caused extra "stealth points" to be used up

If it takes 3 turns to virus a DoomBot and you can't stealth during that time, nobody is ever going to do it. 3 turns with a DoomBot coming after you (after you had to be at point blank range to virus it) is suicide. I'll be using the rocket launcher to deal with those cases instead.