Author Topic: Part Stats Balance, Round 2  (Read 3851 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 10:32:12 AM »

If it takes 3 turns to virus a DoomBot and you can't stealth during that time, nobody is ever going to do it. 3 turns with a DoomBot coming after you (after you had to be at point blank range to virus it) is suicide. I'll be using the rocket launcher to deal with those cases instead.

Well, yes, thats the point. It is meant to be hard. Otherwise, why wouldn't you virus it every time?

Right now, virus is a very high reward method with very little risk if you use tactics and have the points for it (lure enemy into corner). The "high-risk" needs to be put back in. How this is done should be debated, but I think it is needed.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:38:06 AM by chemical_art »
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »
I really don't understand what you're trying to say in this thread. In one set of posts you're saying that it's fine that one virus part can have 200 points and virus tons of things. Now you seem to be advocating making those points unusable against anything actually worth hitting with a virus.

And what do you mean by put high-risk back in? It was never high-risk in the first place. The limited use abilities are all powerful. Shooting stuff with the rocket launcher from across the map isn't high-risk either, and unlike waiting 3 turns without stealth for a virus to kick in isn't suicidal. Under that ruleset, I'd skip viruses entirely and bring more siege exos.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:38:46 AM by Tridus »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 10:39:25 AM »
I really don't understand what you're trying to say in this thread. In one set of posts you're saying that it's fine that one virus part can have 200 points and virus tons of things. Now you seem to be advocating making those points unusable against anything actually worth hitting with a virus.

I'm advocating it is fine to virus many things, but the risk of attempting the virus itself is too low right now, especially in proportion to harder things.

Right now, if one has the points and knows how to game the AI, virus is a "I win" button in terms of great reward and no risk.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2013, 12:02:58 PM »


Seeing that stealth is always a one shot method of eliminating threats, it is true that hiding around corners can allow it to be abused.

I can see a few ways to get around it: (not, not all would be used at the same time)
Stronger enemies 2 turns before infection. Strongest enemies need 3 turns. Maybe unable to stealth during this time.
Using virus will stealthed breaks stealth
Using virus while stealth caused extra "stealth points" to be used up

I'd be interested to see exactly how you're doing this virusing without stealth bit, because from what I've seen.... it doesnt work.  Not unless the enemy bot has an attack range of exactly 1.

I'm not sure just what you're seeing in your own game, but when I attempt that strategy, against pretty much any enemy, what actually happens is this:



As you can see, he's already aiming at me. He doesnt need to step onto the tile in front of me to hit me, and thus, he wont do so, and thus wont get virused easily.  To virus him, I *have* to take at least one step forward, and certainly on Expert mode, doing such a thing WITHOUT stealth is generally suicide.  A great many enemies can either kill you in a single blow, or maul you so badly that they may as well have.  Masterminds like the one shown there are weak (though he'd still do 70 damage to me with his current attack power at level 12, and that's a significant amount on Expert where your shields start out VERY low), but there's an army behind him that you cant see in the screenshot.  And it's a Mastermind, which means that the army behind him is *really* nasty right now from getting that buff.

This situation is why I suggested simply having a stealth cost when doing this type of action.   Granted, that's not a perfect solution.... eventually the stealth cost might become the main cost for viruses, determining how many you can use instead of the virus count determining it like it should.


Even then though....  one thing I'm also not finding, is that I'm not finding that virusing things is all-powerful.  Most things that I hit with viruses *will* die rather quick, sometimes without managing to deal damage (and I'm very selective about what I will use viruses on, so I'm not using them on weak, pathetic things or anything).  Even the mighty DoomBot has occaisionally gone down after firing a single shot, if that, when I turn him against his fellow bots.   It may be better on lower difficulties... I'm not sure, as when I was playing on Normal I didn't really use it much at all.   On Expert though, at least with my playstyle, it's never quite that simple, and it doesnt act as a win button; it's just another strategic tool.   I actually consider mines to be much safer to use (even if they require alot of preparation), and they're my emergency weapon if something truly threatening is coming, instead of the viruses.   I put hacking and mines over viruses in terms of importance (though I dont put them all on the same Exo, that'd end badly).  Others may disagree of course, but for me this is the case.   Not that virusing isnt powerful, because it is.


I'm going to try to think up more suggestions though for how this might be balanced a little better, but right now the best suggestion I can come up with is increasing the virus cost of certain bots by a good amount.   Though the "more stealth points used" idea really isnt a bad one either.


And if I'm not making sense somehow here or outright missing something, I apologize; I'm about to go to bed here and am a bit tired, so.... yeah. 

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »
I'm not in a mood to argue, actually, I am saying it flatly.

Hacking > killing a unit outright, therefore, it should be harder.

Right now, if one has stealth, hacking is just as hard as killing. Get unit to corner, stealth for one turn, hack, win.

There needs to be more risk, otherwise hacking is OP.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2013, 01:00:11 PM »
Except that your solution breaks viruses to the point of uselessness, like Misery explained. Stuff can shoot you before you can virus it, without stealth. If virusing breaks stealth and takes a bunch of turns to kick in, the exo that does the virusing is dead. Period. There is no reason to ever do that over shooting or doing something not-suicidal with the part slots (mines, turrets, or stack up some door hacking and don't bother with a science exo).

It already is harder than just shooting it, seeing as how I can shoot it from across the room or as they come around the corner (and thus always get the first shot).

Aside from fixing the virus costs on the bots (and the part giving too much), I don't think we should do anything else to it this close to release. Figure it out post 1.0. Particularly not something that's going to cripple it entirely.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2013, 01:13:55 PM »
And I'm saying that one cannot shoot from stealth, one shouldn't virus from stealth, period. Otherwise, that is game breaking form my perspective.

I appreciate how some are butchering my suggestions (assuming a maybe statement within a multi-prong statement = a must statement), but that won't dissuade me from my original view that stealth + virus is OP
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 01:45:35 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2013, 01:54:17 PM »
And I'm saying that one cannot shoot from stealth, one shouldn't virus from stealth, period. Otherwise, that is game breaking form my perspective

If every gun had a range of 1 that would probably be a fair comparison. But I can shoot stuff from the other side of the map, or around the corner. Viruses as they stand right now flat out aren't worth using if you can't use them from stealth.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2013, 02:00:43 PM »
And I'm saying that one cannot shoot from stealth, one shouldn't virus from stealth, period. Otherwise, that is game breaking form my perspective
Viruses as they stand right now flat out aren't worth using if you can't use them from stealth.

I disagree. It is far too easy to isolate units, then get to a corner, and virus. I don't stealth for this.
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2013, 03:41:47 PM »
This is just an opinion, but i believe that Tridus has a point, if it becomes much harder to use viruses against bots, then the usefulness is voided and players will simply rely on other tactics, which to be honest is not really the purpose as virus was introduced to do exactly what it is doing.

If it is too easy to do it, then perhaps at higher difficulties, it is not.

Or if it is even there, then perhaps it is used to replace the shrinking usefulness of other weapons against those bots. Which is a strong possibility.

In addition, rather than doing a complete overhaul to the virus tactic and how it is done, some small tweaks to slight increases in cost, either to stealth or to the virus points themselves would address that. So players who feel it is a magic button, now feel that it cost them something to use it, something that sometimes they are not going to be able to afford. So it limits the over-powered feeling of the tactic.

Also, the increase in cost may be acceptable to the players that do use it often to balance themselves against stronger or longer range opponent bots, as a necessary cost of using that action.

This of course was already proposed by Misery and Tridus and seems to me to address all of the concerns and to do it in a way that doesn't alienate one side or the other.

Thats my two cents, but i agree that tweaking costs with this sounds like a reasonable alternative to both sides on virus and stealth use.

:)

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Offline Winge

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2013, 04:02:43 PM »
I'd be interested to see exactly how you're doing this virusing without stealth bit, because from what I've seen.... it doesnt work.  Not unless the enemy bot has an attack range of exactly 1.

You're mostly correct.  In that situation, you need at least one Stealth (and probably more, since you mentioned a very angry army behind those).

The only way you can virus without tanking damage or using a stealth point is if you can isolate an alerted bot behind cover.  If I get the chance, I'll post a pic.  Obviously, that is very rare; I almost always either take a light hit (if I'm virusing a lower-damage buff bot) or stealth up.  I also almost never virus bots in groups, as neither they nor I last long.  That's a "nuke them from orbit" kind of solution--I <3 rocket launchers!

One possibility for higher difficulties would be to decrease the starting number of stealth actions, and buff the stealth granting items.  Then, what items and strategies the player uses become much more a matter of choice, rather than being able to do everything really well.  Really, this might need to be done anyways--Exos get a lot of starting stealth actions.  I suppose that the number of starting stealth actions could scale with difficulty like shields, although that might be too much.

Thoughts?


Edit:  How to capture bots without spending Stealth Points

« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 05:47:14 PM by Winge »
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2013, 04:37:10 PM »
I'd be interested to see exactly how you're doing this virusing without stealth bit, because from what I've seen.... it doesnt work.  Not unless the enemy bot has an attack range of exactly 1.

You're mostly correct.  In that situation, you need at least one Stealth (and probably more, since you mentioned a very angry army behind those).

The only way you can virus without tanking damage or using a stealth point is if you can isolate an alerted bot behind cover.  If I get the chance, I'll post a pic.  Obviously, that is very rare; I almost always either take a light hit (if I'm virusing a lower-damage buff bot) or stealth up.  I also almost never virus bots in groups, as neither they nor I last long.  That's a "nuke them from orbit" kind of solution--I <3 rocket launchers!

One possibility for higher difficulties would be to decrease the starting number of stealth actions, and buff the stealth granting items.  Then, what items and strategies the player uses become much more a matter of choice, rather than being able to do everything really well.  Really, this might need to be done anyways--Exos get a lot of starting stealth actions.  I suppose that the number of starting stealth actions could scale with difficulty like shields, although that might be too much.

Thoughts?


I like your idea of having the majority (if i am understanding correctly) of the stealth, or virus points going into the parts and not part of the built in abilities of the exos, and as you say, in that way it becomes a matter of those that use stealth and virus alot, can buff their exos with those parts. While those that feel it is overpowered or a magic button can choose to play without those buff parts.

Nicely analyzed.  :)

I second the motion.


Offline Misery

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2013, 08:27:08 PM »
I'd be interested to see exactly how you're doing this virusing without stealth bit, because from what I've seen.... it doesnt work.  Not unless the enemy bot has an attack range of exactly 1.

You're mostly correct.  In that situation, you need at least one Stealth (and probably more, since you mentioned a very angry army behind those).

The only way you can virus without tanking damage or using a stealth point is if you can isolate an alerted bot behind cover.  If I get the chance, I'll post a pic.  Obviously, that is very rare; I almost always either take a light hit (if I'm virusing a lower-damage buff bot) or stealth up.  I also almost never virus bots in groups, as neither they nor I last long.  That's a "nuke them from orbit" kind of solution--I <3 rocket launchers!

One possibility for higher difficulties would be to decrease the starting number of stealth actions, and buff the stealth granting items.  Then, what items and strategies the player uses become much more a matter of choice, rather than being able to do everything really well.  Really, this might need to be done anyways--Exos get a lot of starting stealth actions.  I suppose that the number of starting stealth actions could scale with difficulty like shields, although that might be too much.

Thoughts?



Hm... this method you show doesnt use corners though?  Chemical_Art, is this the way you're doing it as well?  Ah, I feel like I"m missing something here.  Not that THAT is anything new, hah.

The method displayed here is not a problem with stealth or viruses, it's a problem with the bot's AI.   There's actually *lots* of ways to take advantage of that behavior that have nothing to do with viruses.  I've realized it's a bit of a problem in various ways, but hadnt considered it important enough to bring up, in the face of the game needing lots of other types of testing first.   Though, virusing with this method only works if you get the bot entirely on it's own, cut off from it's allies.  Wouldnt be a good move otherwise, particularly with so many bots with extreme range around.  ....or is that mostly Expert mode?  I forget if enemy range scales by difficulty level.

As for the amount of starting stealth, you could probably decrease that a bit overall, even on lower difficulties.   I think every Exo needs at least a LITTLE of it.... just to alleviate player frustration from mistakes made (which is important), and for various strategies to work.... but having more of it come from items instead of too much coming from the Exo itself would fit in line with the other abilities.


Also, one new idea does occur to me:  One of the problems with viruses is that the bot grabbed is immediately a battle asset;  what if this were not the case?   Let's say you grab a bot with virus, right, well, what if it took 5 (or even more) turns for the virus to fully act upon the bot?  You would virus the thing, and it would..... sort of just shut down, until the virus runs it's course.  This means that virusing something in the middle of a heap of other bots is going to mean you get a useless bot that *will* just die, because other bots would happily attack it during it's shut-down phase.  Even the mighty DoomBot would be useless if grabbed in this way.  You would HAVE to work to isolate the bot in question if you wanted to do it this way.  This would give the player some options:  If they really wanted to they could still choose to use the virus to whittle down an enemy group, picking one of them off.... but they would gain no additional benefit because the bot would be flattened instantly.  But if they wanted to USE the bot, they'd have to isolate it FIRST, and THAT isnt always so easy (though it IS kinda easy on lower difficulties). 

And yes, I know one of the arguements for this is that it instantly defeats a bot essentially, but I dont think that's all that much of an issue, honestly.   On lower difficulties, *most* bots can be defeated instantly if you have your weapons set up right, and if you know how to do it.   Even on Expert, this can be done.  Being able to KO enemies immediately at times is not, I think, a problem unless you're doing it like ALL the time, or in some extremely broken way (like getting 50 rockets and then using them to blast through walls, or something).  And simply knocking out one bot.... or even 5.... with this isnt going to alter the difficulty all that much.   There's just too many bots per mission for that to be the case.  The main reason why it can whittle them down more than that is indeed the simple fact that they can instantly fight for you, thus my above suggestion.  And even that is going to depend on the bot;  some of them can be helpful yet can barely do damage.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2013, 10:08:45 PM »
Giving virus'd bots a couple turns of paralysis would be very easy to do :)

And the Epic Ninja could just have like 1 turn of virus-paralysis instead :D

Though I guess it gets all the fun specials.  Maybe Epic Science.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Part Stats Balance, Round 2
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2013, 10:19:52 PM »
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