Arcen Games
General Category => Bionic Dues => Topic started by: keith.lamothe on September 17, 2013, 01:53:47 pm
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Just looking for more feedback on an issue Misery brought up in this mantis record (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12514) :
Right now in order to see the current stats of any given system, you have to hover over a part for them to appear, which really seems kinda odd to me. If you dont have any parts in a system yet, you wont see any of these at all, and it kinda makes it look like something is wrong with the display, for it to be all blank like that if you're not hovering over something.
Simply to make things easier I suggest having both the Exo-wide and system specific sections always displayed regardless, similar to how the previous system worked. The fact that it was always displayed before wasnt really the cause of player confusion, and I think the new interface for this should reduce that by a ton, as overall it's much easier to look at and understand, not to mention that dividing it into those two sections helps alot as well. But it not displaying automatically is pretty annoying. Particularly if you're just starting the game, and you wanna have a look at what the specific base stats of each system is to begin with.
And my reply from there:
Ok, two questions:
1) Regarding "Particularly if you're just starting the game, and you wanna have a look at what the specific base stats of each system is to begin with."
What part of this does the bottom-left display on the exo-customization screen itself not address? It lists all your stats there, right?
2)Regarding "Right now in order to see the current stats of any given system, you have to hover over a part for them to appear, which really seems kinda odd to me. If you dont have any parts in a system yet, you wont see any of these at all, and it kinda makes it look like something is wrong with the display, for it to be all blank like that if you're not hovering over something."
Well, the thing is that the part-picker's purpose is no longer to show you system stats. Its purpose is to show you what will happen if you select a specific part (or select "take the current part out"). If it tries to fill both purposes it gets to be a really enormous amount of info, when really what it actually needs to tell you is far less than that. The confusion comes in when you're trying to figure out why the game is telling you all that stuff, and trying to find the info that's actually relevant.
If you take it at face value, does it still look like the display is wrong?. It no longer says anything about "System Stats", but rather "Clicking Right Now Will Change". Now, as someone who tested it earlier when it _did_ say "System Stats" I understand your confusion, but I don't think that applies once the mental transition is made.
So more basically: does it need to also try to tell you about the system? If so, why?
Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out what y'all actually want from this screen. I don't mind trying to work the system stats in somehow or another, but it probably means a different layout, etc. And preferably we can meet those needs on the main customization screen rather than trying to make the part-picker fill both roles. But first I need to find out what the screen(s) actually need to do :)
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The problem I had was that when I get a new gun (starting the game for the first time, getting an epic exo upgrade), I want to hover over the weapons to see what they do. They don't show me anything until I start slotting items into them.
It'd be nice to see the weapon stats if you mouse over the weapon while in customization. (Typically I ended up going into a mission and firing the thing so I'd know after that what it does.)
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The problem I had was that when I get a new gun (starting the game for the first time, getting an epic exo upgrade), I want to hover over the weapons to see what they do. They don't show me anything until I start slotting items into them.
Ah, an excellent point :)
(Typically I ended up going into a mission and firing the thing so I'd know after that what it does.)
Well, that would be the proper-dwarven-science approach, but I do understand that not everyone will be so inclined.
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The problem I had was that when I get a new gun (starting the game for the first time, getting an epic exo upgrade), I want to hover over the weapons to see what they do. They don't show me anything until I start slotting items into them.
It'd be nice to see the weapon stats if you mouse over the weapon while in customization. (Typically I ended up going into a mission and firing the thing so I'd know after that what it does.)
For me this is not only an issue if getting a new gun, but also if I simply want to check the current stats of a weapon I already know about including the equipped parts. Currently the only way to check this is to hover over an item in the parts picker that is boosting the respective stat. So this is definitely missing in the customization UI...
I bet this was one of the most wordy +1s you have heard for quite some time, though ;)...
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I agree with this.
Actual system stats are only on it's screen - it's really visible for weapons since their stats are only there or when you go into combat.
I'll take a look at new part picker and see what I can nitpick on.
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Just in for 0.914:
* The Exo Customization Window now has mouseover tooltips for each of the weapons (if your cursor is within their area without being over a filled slot of theirs; otherwise it shows what's in that filled slot), listing attack power, range, aoe radius and type (if any), and ammo capacity.
I think this will handle the bulk of that case. An alternative is to try to actually include that text in the layout of that customization screen, similar to how it already displays the ammo for each weapon. But I think that could to be just too visually busy and too much info to see at a "summary level". It also would be none-too-easy to fit on 1024x720.
Another alternative is to also list the info for each weapon in the bottom-left stat block on that window. It would make that much longer, but it's already scrollable. Would that help? Or be stuffing too much in there?
Actually for that lower-left stat block I'm thinking of just having it always list every thing. Taking for example an empty non-epic Siege exo:
Shields: 650/650
Power Usage: 0/120
(Inherent)
+10 Sensor Range
+5 Stealth Actions Per Mission
Light Machine Gun:
Attack: 120
Range: 6
Ammo Capacity: 55
Rocket Launcher:
Attack: 1000
Range: 9
Area-Of-Effect: 2 (Radial)
Ammo Capacity: 7
Shield-Related:
Damage Reduction: 0
Regen: 0
Propulsion-Related:
Stealth Actions: 5
Trap Avoidance Level: 0
Self Destruction Level: 0
Computer-Related:
Sensor Range: 10
Hacking Points: 0
Virus Points: 0
Sentry Turrets: 0
Mines: 0
Sentry/Mine Strength Boost: 0%
Each of the actual stat lines having mouseover tooltips as now.
Would that work? Or be too much?
As for nitpicking on the Part-picker, please do let me know what you would like improved there. But also bear in mind that it is paired with the exo customization window itself, so what I'm really looking for is feedback on the two of them combined. Though obviously the original point of the thread was more focused than that (not that that's every stopped us before... ;) ).
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Including the weapon stats into the overall layout would be my preferred solution if it can be fitted in.
Otherwise the tooltip is fine.
Having the weapon stats added to the lower left text field would be superfluous for my taste - but i could live with it if they are always appended to the end ;).. (as having to scroll through weapon stats to reach e.g. computer related stats which are only given there would be inconvenient)
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Including the weapon stats into the overall layout would be my preferred solution if it can be fitted in.
It makes sense on the surface of it... but on a 5-weapon exo, do you really want 10-15 extra lines of info spread across that screen? At some point you just get to a wall of info, and a substantial portion of the target audience just glazes over and stops absorbing it. Or do you think that's not true?
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DISCLAIMER - I haven't played in 2 days, so maybe I don't have any idea of how this screen currently looks.
Actually for that lower-left stat block I'm thinking of just having it always list every thing. Taking for example an empty non-epic Siege exo:
That looks great. That's exactly the sort of thing that would help me figure out my exo's overall ability. I assume that the different categories, if you had a global upgrade, would display something like this?
Propulsion-Related: (+28%)
Stealth Actions: 8
Trap Avoidance Level: 3
Self Destruction Level: 4
Though seeing that number there (28%) might be a tiny bit confusing for some people, to not know if the 28% is already applied to the numbers they see below, or if those numbers are pre-bonus. I just want to be able to see my global system bonus stats somewhere in addition to the raw stats.
Also, I know that was just an example, but don't forget 'regen window' under the Shield-Related category! And speaking of, if + global bonus to shield systems effects raw shield values, then regen, regen window, damage reduction, and raw shields should all be grouped together I think.
EDIT: I don't think having the weapon info in the bottom left is entirely necessary. The weapon stats could appear when you are hovering over in the tooltip just fine, but ALSO I would like if they were displayed when changing ANY module for the given weapon system (is that what is called the part picker?).
So, for example, a weapon with 0 parts added would still display all the weapon-based stats in the little part picker screen for that weapon. 8 range, 2 AoE, 52 ammo, etc.
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Including the weapon stats into the overall layout would be my preferred solution if it can be fitted in.
It makes sense on the surface of it... but on a 5-weapon exo, do you really want 10-15 extra lines of info spread across that screen? At some point you just get to a wall of info, and a substantial portion of the target audience just glazes over and stops absorbing it. Or do you think that's not true?
Never acquired an epic exo yet, so that's a little hard to say.
I think it would turn out okay for three weapons (see: the assault exo), though.
It's just that I would prefer a solution that does not hide that info in a tooltip or a text dump, really.
How about only including damage, range and ammo into the text that is shown directly in the customization UI? The argument being that AoE is fairly situational, while the type of a weapon does not change. Would that mitigate your concerns a bit :)?
EDIT: Additionally *all* weapons stats should be displayed *always* in the upper right corner of the part picker UI if selecting a weapon slot, imho - as proposed by khadgar above...
EDIT2: If the change to add the stats to the customization UI is trivial for you, just lets give it a shot and see what the others think, don't you think?
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I assume that the different categories, if you had a global upgrade, would display something like this?
Actually, I wouldn't show that there, I don't think. It would just show the final values for each stat, rather than showing the second-order stats (stats which only impact other stats).
I mean, I can certainly show those too, but ultimately I think it's unnecessary and potentially confusing.
Also, I know that was just an example, but don't forget 'regen window' under the Shield-Related category!
Regen-window is no longer a stat as of 0.913 :) It's just always 5 now. That way you don't need two stats to make a single mechanic work (same reason that consecutive-stealth was removed as a stat, it's just the one stealth stat now).
EDIT: I don't think having the weapon info in the bottom left is entirely necessary. The weapon stats could appear when you are hovering over in the tooltip just fine, but ALSO I would like if they were displayed when changing ANY module for the given weapon system (is that what is called the part picker?).
What I'd really like to avoid is making the part-picker responsible for showing anything but a comparison of the two parts in question. With the minimum spec of 1024x720 it can _just barely_ manage to do that space-wise right now (when considering swapping a General Overcharger in or out), and if we try to make it also tell you additional info on top of that I'll probably have to rework the whole thing again. Which we can do if truly necessary, but I think even if it weren't for the space/layout problems it would make the part-picker less useful rather than more useful because it would be showing you info you didn't really need to know at the time.
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EDIT: Additionally *all* weapons stats should be displayed *always* in the upper right corner of the part picker UI if selecting a weapon slot, imho - as proposed by khadgar above...
What I'd really like to avoid is making the part-picker responsible for showing anything but a comparison of the two parts in question. With the minimum spec of 1024x720 it can _just barely_ manage to do that space-wise right now (when considering swapping a General Overcharger in or out), and if we try to make it also tell you additional info on top of that I'll probably have to rework the whole thing again. Which we can do if truly necessary, but I think even if it weren't for the space/layout problems it would make the part-picker less useful rather than more useful because it would be showing you info you didn't really need to know at the time.
I can see your reasoning here, so please ignore my above edit to my previous post.
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Ok, well, we can try just having weapons always show all Attack, Range, and Ammo (and AOE-range if its base aoe > 0) on the part-picker comparison block... but we couldn't do just that and leave it, really. Right now the header for that section is "Clicking Right Now Will Change:", followed by "(Nothing)" if nothing would change.
What should it say when you're in there for a weapon slot?
Something like changing from:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing)
to:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing, but for reference here are the weapon stats):
(System-Specific)
Attack Power: 250
Attack Range: 4
Ammo Capacity: 24
?
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Just put in the changes to the customization window's lower-left stat block, so it now shows all stats (that aren't just boosts to other stats) for the exo even if they're zero, and includes the weapon info (at the end).
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Main thing that I'm missing is a power display thats present on both customization screen and when you are fitting modules.
I see that new interface added power balance to fitting screen.
So it's missing only from customization screen - need to scroll stats around to see it.
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Main thing that I'm missing is a power display thats present on both customization screen and when you are fitting modules.
I see that new interface added power balance to fitting screen.
So it's missing only from customization screen - need to scroll stats around to see it.
In theory, yes, but it's one of the top two lines of the readout, so it's always displaying unless you've intentionally scrolled to something else, right?
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Would it work to put weapon info in a different window in the main customization screen, and provide a button to switch between weapon stats and Exo stats?
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Just in for 0.914:
* The Exo Customization Window now has mouseover tooltips for each of the weapons (if your cursor is within their area without being over a filled slot of theirs; otherwise it shows what's in that filled slot), listing attack power, range, aoe radius and type (if any), and ammo capacity.
I think this will handle the bulk of that case. An alternative is to try to actually include that text in the layout of that customization screen, similar to how it already displays the ammo for each weapon. But I think that could to be just too visually busy and too much info to see at a "summary level". It also would be none-too-easy to fit on 1024x720.
Another alternative is to also list the info for each weapon in the bottom-left stat block on that window. It would make that much longer, but it's already scrollable. Would that help? Or be stuffing too much in there?
It could work with the info in there, but I definitely want the mouseover. That was how I tried to look at them originally.
If they're going to all be in the stat block as well, can you sort it so the weapons are at the bottom? The core stats should be at the top IMO.
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Would it work to put weapon info in a different window in the main customization screen, and provide a button to switch between weapon stats and Exo stats?
It could be done, but why? Adding another interface element (the button) seems to be a significant additional complexity. The fact that the area has to be scrollable is bad enough, I think :) I suppose if it were _only_ paged (by that button and another one, maybe another one after that) it could be an improvement, but even there I dunno. And Chris really prefers scrolling to paging.
It could work with the info in there, but I definitely want the mouseover. That was how I tried to look at them originally.
Right, the mouseover part went in earlier than the changes to the lower-left block.
If they're going to all be in the stat block as well, can you sort it so the weapons are at the bottom? The core stats should be at the top IMO.
Yep, I put the weapons at the end.
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Sounds good. :)
While you're in there, any chance of the button to remove all equipped items at once? (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12294) It takes a lot of clicking to do that with epic exos right now.
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While you're in there, any chance of the button to remove all equipped items at once? (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12294) It takes a lot of clicking to do that with epic exos right now.
Where would it go?
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I just started playing this Monday and I have no issue with the part picker, it currently shows me exactly what I want to see.
However, I have to agree that the basic/current stats of a weapon have to be displayed somewhere on the main customization screen. I would prefer having a tool tip pop up when we hover over a weapons name that tells us all of its current stats. This way, the information would only be displayed if we need it and it would also be easy to find. No scrolling an searching for a specific weapon.
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However, I have to agree that the basic/current stats of a weapon have to be displayed somewhere on the main customization screen. I would prefer having a tool tip pop up when we hover over a weapons name that tells us all of its current stats.
Right, and that's already in for 0.914 :)
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While you're in there, any chance of the button to remove all equipped items at once? (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12294) It takes a lot of clicking to do that with epic exos right now.
Where would it go?
Right here. :)
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While you're in there, any chance of the button to remove all equipped items at once? (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=12294) It takes a lot of clicking to do that with epic exos right now.
Where would it go?
Right here. :)
Done :)
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Did anyone want to weigh in on:
Ok, well, we can try just having weapons always show all Attack, Range, and Ammo (and AOE-range if its base aoe > 0) on the part-picker comparison block... but we couldn't do just that and leave it, really. Right now the header for that section is "Clicking Right Now Will Change:", followed by "(Nothing)" if nothing would change.
What should it say when you're in there for a weapon slot?
Something like changing from:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing)
to:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing, but for reference here are the weapon stats):
(System-Specific)
Attack Power: 250
Attack Range: 4
Ammo Capacity: 24
?
I'm willing to try it, but I'm looking for some kind of reasonable way to display it to the user that is at least not self-contradictory :)
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Including the weapon stats into the overall layout would be my preferred solution if it can be fitted in.
It makes sense on the surface of it... but on a 5-weapon exo, do you really want 10-15 extra lines of info spread across that screen? At some point you just get to a wall of info, and a substantial portion of the target audience just glazes over and stops absorbing it. Or do you think that's not true?
Never acquired an epic exo yet, so that's a little hard to say.
I think it would turn out okay for three weapons (see: the assault exo), though.
It's just that I would prefer a solution that does not hide that info in a tooltip or a text dump, really.
How about only including damage, range and ammo into the text that is shown directly in the customization UI? The argument being that AoE is fairly situational, while the type of a weapon does not change. Would that mitigate your concerns a bit :)?
EDIT2: If the change to add the stats to the customization UI is trivial for you, just lets give it a shot and see what the others think, don't you think?
What about adding the main weapon info (i.e. damage , range and ammo) to the main customization UI the way ammo alone is already displayed now as proposed above? For smaller reolutions the info could be added to the same line. If more screen estate is available linebreaks could be added.
Adding the text directly to the customization UI would be no downside, imho. For me it adds to the "techy" flair of the screen (like, it being the blueprint for the respective exo including "engineering annotations" and stuff. But maybe that's just me ;)...
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Adding the text directly to the customization UI would be no downside, imho
Up to 15 more numbers on an already-busy screen is a downside :)
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Did anyone want to weigh in on:
Ok, well, we can try just having weapons always show all Attack, Range, and Ammo (and AOE-range if its base aoe > 0) on the part-picker comparison block... but we couldn't do just that and leave it, really. Right now the header for that section is "Clicking Right Now Will Change:", followed by "(Nothing)" if nothing would change.
What should it say when you're in there for a weapon slot?
Something like changing from:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing)
to:
Clicking Right Now Will Change:
(Nothing, but for reference here are the weapon stats):
(System-Specific)
Attack Power: 250
Attack Range: 4
Ammo Capacity: 24
?
I'm willing to try it, but I'm looking for some kind of reasonable way to display it to the user that is at least not self-contradictory :)
What if you did something like this, visible all the time while on the part selector with the current stats:
Affected Stats
(System-Specific)
Attack Power: 250
Attack Range: 4
Ammo Capacity: 24
Then if you are hovering over something that would change it:
Affected Stats
(System-Specific)
Attack Power: 250 => 300
Attack Range: 4 => 3
Ammo Capacity: 24
So you always show the system (weapon) stats, and just add the modified values to show the change next to it if there is a change.
Done :)
Thanks! :)
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FYI, just in for 0.922:
* Part-picker header line now displays the name of the in-context system (so "Reactor", "Shotgun", etc).
* Part-picker, when in the context of a weapon, now always includes the attack power, ammo, attack range, and (if an aoe weapon) aoe range in the comparison block, under an "(unchanged, but related)" subheader. If a stat has already been listed because it is being changed, it is not listed in that new section.
The second one being the important one here, but the first seemed pertinent too. Attack power of what? Etc.
Anyway, the second change may be info overload, as I was concerned about, but we'll see :) Please let me know what you think either way when you try out 0.922 or later.
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Hm, I dont think that'll be info overload really; I was considering suggesting something along this line myself as well. Being able to quickly look at those stats should help a bit when customizing.