Arcen Games

Games => Bionic Dues => Topic started by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 12:40:45 PM

Title: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 12:40:45 PM
Release notes: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Bionic_Dues_Alpha_Release_Notes#Alpha_0.924

Restart steam to force a quicker update if it doesn't do it automatically.

This one is just mostly a hotfix release to fix some pants-on-head bugs in the prior version.  You mean you wanted to hack doors?
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Histidine on September 27, 2013, 01:15:38 PM
Okay, I raised the issue of the bot shield/damage exponential growth in the other thread (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13939.msg158686.html#msg158686), but I didn't realize how bad it actually was until I actually punched the numbers into my calculator.

At a per-level exponent of 1.19 (Expert difficulty), non-bosses at level 20 will have 32.4 times their base HP and damage, on top of the HP tripling they already get for being on Expert. For reference, the corresponding multiplier for Normal non-bosses (1.11) and Expert bosses (1.13) is a much healthier 8x and 11.5x respectively.  This is a little like one of the versions of the Indian legend with the rice-on-chessboard problem (http://www.singularitysymposium.com/exponential-growth.html), except that instead of offering a generous repayment schedule Krishna overthrows the king with his robot army and takes over the world.

Considering that at that stage of the game the player will have damage increases of 3x at best, and maybe 6x or more for shields, this strikes me as just a wee bit excessive. In practical terms, in the last few levels of my old Expert playthrough I've resorted to just emptying my rocket/plasma cannon ammo where appropriate, then cloaking all the rest of the way straight to the exit (this probably needs fixing, by the way.)

To be sure, other than that little issue, I presently have no significant complaints whatsoever :D Everything seems good.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
Sweet. :)

How about this?

* Redid the exponents for normal/boss bot health/attack increases by level:
** Casual through normal: 1.10/1.07 down from 1.11/1.08
** Hard: 1.11/1.08 down from 1.16/1.10
** Hard: 1.12/1.09 down from 1.19/1.13
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Histidine on September 27, 2013, 01:35:03 PM
How about this?

* Redid the exponents for normal/boss bot health/attack increases by level:
** Casual through normal: 1.10/1.07 down from 1.11/1.08
** Hard: 1.11/1.08 down from 1.16/1.10
** Hard: 1.12/1.09 down from 1.19/1.13
Sounds good. :)
I'd need to test to be sure, but I'd probably be able to handle exponents up to 1.14 for Expert (13.7x multiplier at level 20). Keeping the growth as close to linear as possible makes it much easier to balance, though, and we'd want some headroom for if a Misery difficulty ever gets implemented :P
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 01:36:22 PM
except that instead of offering a generous repayment schedule Krishna overthrows the king with his robot army and takes over the world.
Which is obviously what he should have done to begin with.


Just checking: is there actually a need to reduce the exponents for casual, easy, and normal?  I think hard and expert needed the change, not sure about the other ones.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
Well, I think that most people here have an inflated skill compared to the average, and so balancing normal around them might not go so well.  So long as the hard options exist, we're all good.  But if there are not sufficiently middling options... I dunno.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
I just don't want Normal to be what Casual should be, etc.  As then Casual is... well, actually, Casual can be braindead easy.  Easy would be a bit more of an issue.

Anyway, do we have any way of getting good balance feedback on Easy and Normal before 1.0?
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Histidine on September 27, 2013, 01:44:46 PM
Okay, I lied. Depending on your precise config, your shields can be 10x of their base value or more (tested from stripping my exos).

On the other hand, I was using Emma, and constantly raiding the store so I could stack coolant tanks in my shield slots like a maniac, so my loadout may not be particularly representative.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Tridus on September 27, 2013, 01:45:15 PM
Normal is honestly not that hard right now, IMO. I would be careful about lowering those, because you may make things into a joke.

Do higher difficulties give out more levels to the enemy robots? Because that would also affect things.

edit - Easy and Casual certainly don't need help being easier either.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Histidine on September 27, 2013, 01:53:29 PM
Yeah, you could probably add 0.01 to all the listed values (this brings Normal and lower back to where they were before, and the value on Expert is still tolerable).

It might also help to look at the levels/day gain of the bots in addition to the level exponents themselves.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
Since folks are asking for reference, looking at the level-related stuff:

Manufacturing level goes up by 1/1/2/2/2 per day on Casual/Easy/Normal/Hard/Expert.

Robot levels go up per day such that at on DaysLeft=0 the average bot level is 10/12/15/18/22.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 02:00:18 PM
Okay:

* Redid the exponents for normal/boss bot health/attack increases by level:
** Hard: 1.12/1.09 down from 1.16/1.10
** Expert: 1.13/1.10 down from 1.19/1.13


Not only do robot levels go up, but also the base health of the robots goes up on hard and expert as well.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: keith.lamothe on September 27, 2013, 02:01:32 PM
Congratulations guys, we hammered him into submission!

(I kid ;) )


And yea, the 2x and 3x multipliers to base enemy health on hard and expert definitely factor in.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Pepisolo on September 27, 2013, 02:02:38 PM
Long ago bumped myself up to hard. Not really struggling, seems about right for me, although I'm only in the last 20 days. I'm not really in serious mode, either. Looking forward to testing ironman mode on expert -- for some reason I've always gotta play permadeath in the highest difficulty even if I get caned. Oh, I've been watching those Let's Plays by Das and he seems to be cruising normal, although he is a very strategical player. Casual/Normal definitely don't seem too hard.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Pepisolo on September 27, 2013, 04:35:37 PM
Can't update to .924 on Linux for some reason. I've reinstalled the game, too. Surprised I only noticed after completing a couple of missions!
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
Can't update to .924 on Linux for some reason. I've reinstalled the game, too. Surprised I only noticed after completing a couple of missions!

Are you on the dev branch?  If so, that only goes up to .923, and you should switch back to the main branch.  That's the only reason I could think of for this!
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Pepisolo on September 27, 2013, 05:01:31 PM
Can't update to .924 on Linux for some reason. I've reinstalled the game, too. Surprised I only noticed after completing a couple of missions!

Are you on the dev branch?  If so, that only goes up to .923, and you should switch back to the main branch.  That's the only reason I could think of for this!

Nope, never switched the dev branch on and it's not on in my steam settings. I'll try a PC reboot later, maybe that'll sort it.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 27, 2013, 05:03:20 PM
I think I missed updating the build for OSX and Linux on that one, actually -- oops.  I looked at the linux compared to OSX and they were the same, so at first I thought there shouldn't be an issue.  Then I looked at the windows one, and realized. ;) .925 just came out, though, and definitely has it for all three.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Misery on September 27, 2013, 08:39:09 PM
Long ago bumped myself up to hard. Not really struggling, seems about right for me, although I'm only in the last 20 days. I'm not really in serious mode, either. Looking forward to testing ironman mode on expert -- for some reason I've always gotta play permadeath in the highest difficulty even if I get caned. Oh, I've been watching those Let's Plays by Das and he seems to be cruising normal, although he is a very strategical player. Casual/Normal definitely don't seem too hard.


I noticed that same thing when watching his stuff;  I get the impression that he was expecting Normal to be harder.  Where right now it seems very easy, with most things just going squish in one easy hit and the player not taking much damage to their already high-ish shields.  I know I'm not really the best one to judge that particular difficulty level, but still.   Considering that alot of players will start on Normal, I keep wondering if the low challenge of that is going to give the wrong impression?   

As for these exponent things, I have to wonder if the changes with those are going to make hard/expert easier?  Not that I'm any good with math stuffs.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: Histidine on September 28, 2013, 12:45:56 AM
If the lower difficulties are too easy, maybe the exo health bonuses could just go down somewhat. 10x, 5x and even 2x are a lot.
Title: Re: .924 now out.
Post by: x4000 on September 30, 2013, 10:13:56 AM
* The health multipliers for exos in various difficulty levels has been tuned:
** 1.1x instead of 2x on normal.
** 3.5x instead of 5x on easy.
** 7x instead of 10x on casual.