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Ideas for exploration enhancement

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Bluddy:
I'd like to address one of the points that I think AVWW doesn't have down yet completely: exploration. The reason I'm doing it here rather than on Mantis is because I'd like maximum feedback and because I think there is SO much potential for ideas on this front.

I've thought long and hard about this topic. I used to be averse to the huge number of areas and rooms AVWW generates. I thought that it could easily generate far fewer meaningful areas rather than so many ones that are uninteresting. Remember that there's an issue with the game where people tend to over-explore after losing track of a goal, and then they get bored. This is something that's been an issue with the game for a while: you have to actively stop yourself from exploring.

I've come around to seeing the advantage of having a huge world with many rooms. As Chris says, it's more realistic: you have to zero in on the good stuff and separate the wheat from the chaff. But I think there are some hindrances from this philosophy really excelling in the game. The major problem as far as I can tell is having the map be auto-explored.

Let me explain. What is fun about exploration? I think the thing that's most fun is the thought: what's waiting for me just around the corner? What cool thing am I going to find now? Also, where can I find some secret goodies? The map really prevents that from happening. It also doesn't make sense -- how can I always see what's in rooms 2 levels away from me? This mechanism isn't intuitive and it doesn't relate to the subject matter of the game.

So how would I like to see exploration of say, a cave? First, I would like the map to be used for what it's usually for: showing you where you are and how to get back to places you've been, and incorporating new information you've learned. This will restore the surprise of "oh crap I just stepped into a boss cave and there are 3 frackin' bosses here!" and the joy of finding a gem vein. It also presents so many other opportunities. But more on that later.

Second, I keep thinking about Chris's notion of exploration in the real world. How would I explore a huge open world? Well, I would try to get to the good stuff. But how do I do that without a magical map? I'd look for clues of course. If I'm looking for a gem vein, a empty gem bag would be a clue that someone came out of that door and had gems at some point. Or I could find a broken gem on the ground. Where did it come from? There's seemingly no entrance around here? Wait a minute -- if I climb all the way up this cave, there's a hole in the wall directly above this dropped gem! That's where it came from! Another good aspect of this is that I'm looking at the main screen to try find my way and clues about where to go -- not just the map all the time.

There's also the potential for hiding entrances behind things, with clues. I've found a gem bag on the ground but I've checked all the entrances and there's nothing there to be found within a couple of chunks. Where's this gem from? Wait it was next to this mushroom... Destroy the mushroom and there's a secret entrance to another cave! This of course should be rare so you're not constantly destroying every item. Also if mushrooms can explode and spray gas etc you have an incentive not to blow up all of them.

I think there's still place for the map to expand and give you some knowledge, but that knowledge could come from maps that you find or are given. So looking for gravestones is a good idea, because someone might have etched a map onto that. Or you might just find a random map on the ground. These things are likely because the caves were inhabited at some point, and the inhabitants needed a way to find their way or to tell others how not to get lost.

Then you get into all the potential things that you could find and that could surprise you once you're not tied to the map telling you everything. You find an old madman running back and forth and shouting crazy things related to what happened to the world. He may have a clue about a gem vein, or a room where another survivor can be found. He can mark it on your map.

This also brings me to another (minor) point, which is the way that 'missions' are such a rigid, defined structure. They break the 4th wall of the game -- especially secret ones. I'd much prefer it if an Ilari stone told you about something to do, and especially if it didn't call it a mission. Or it could just be 'attempt to rescue survivor' by going in through a door. Yes, it's a mission, but we don't have to call it that. Anyway that was a tangent.

What would going through buildings be like? Actually it would be even cooler than going through caves. Remember, buildings are mostly empty, but there were some survivors who tried to protect themselves from the monsters that were unleashed before they died. So they created bunkers out of objects and crates and... traps!. So you're going through the building looking for some signs that something was alive here recently. Some food on the floor would be a clue that you should keep going down this hallway. A trap would be a great sign, because survivors would have set that. As you get closer to a stash, you'd find more traps and barricades. This would have the serendipitous effect of making the path to the stash more and more difficult as you got closer and closer, making things more and more interesting.

Anyway, I think that this method of leaving clues to the whereabouts of things and distributing maps minimally would really restore that sense of exploration that's missing with the map uncovering stuff for you. What do you guys think? And what ideas do you have for exploration (along the lines I sketched here)?

KingIsaacLinksr:
So the tl;dr of this is that you want us to replace maps with clues.  Which ultimately...idk if that fits in this rather fast-paced game.  idk, I need to think on it and I'll see what other people say before I chime in again but I'm a bit iffy on the idea you present of clues-over-maps. 

King

Bluddy:

--- Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on April 26, 2012, 12:15:32 pm ---So the tl;dr of this is that you want us to replace maps with clues.  Which ultimately...idk if that fits in this rather fast-paced game.  idk, I need to think on it and I'll see what other people say before I chime in again but I'm a bit iffy on the idea you present of clues-over-maps. 

King

--- End quote ---

Well, clues and maps that you find or are given. Basically stuff to find in the 'empty' areas that'll let you figure out which way to go. And to restore the surprise that's currently missing. And allow secret passages that aren't just marked on your map.

KingIsaacLinksr:

--- Quote from: Bluddy on April 26, 2012, 12:41:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: KingIsaacLinksr on April 26, 2012, 12:15:32 pm ---So the tl;dr of this is that you want us to replace maps with clues.  Which ultimately...idk if that fits in this rather fast-paced game.  idk, I need to think on it and I'll see what other people say before I chime in again but I'm a bit iffy on the idea you present of clues-over-maps. 

King

--- End quote ---

Well, clues and maps that you find or are given. Basically stuff to find in the 'empty' areas that'll let you figure out which way to go. And to restore the surprise that's currently missing. And allow secret passages that aren't just marked on your map.

--- End quote ---

Technically, we have secret passages that don't show up on the map, being the vent ducts in destroyed rooms.  But I get what your saying.

On the one hand I agree in that exploration with the map showing a couple levels feels a slight bit much.  I would rather it was toned down more, although getting rid of it completely and having map pieces lying around seems like just another thing we have to gather and I think we have plenty of those as-is. 

On the other hand though, I've gone into buildings where I explored to the end of it and I didn't find much at all.  Its maybe 1/15 buildings that happens, but it does and having the look-ahead-scouting feature prevents that from being a problem. It would essentially require us to make all buildings have something good or exploration will get aggravating in the long run. 

King

Bluddy:
Or the approach to this would be similar to what you'd do in real life. Think about exploring 5 huge buildings. You scout the first few levels of a building and if you don't find anything interesting, no signs of life so to speak, move on to the next one. It's just moved it from the map telling you what's there to actually engaging the player actively with things to look for in the main screen. Also, it deals with maps where there's a stash at the very end and you have to dig all the way for it. If there's no clue at all, don't even both exploring it. Then, while you're on your way to finding the thing you found the clue for, you can be surprised by bosses, random encounters, missions etc, so again the map isn't spilling the beans.

Except for when you find a map piece -- that'll always lead to something interesting and may reveal the location of a boss or mission.

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