Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.

[Martyn van Buren]

Enemies that block things would just encourage me to pop a shield and run through them. That's pretty much what I do right now if I run across something like a clockwork probe in the way of an enchant container. If it's weaker, I might stop and shoot it. So if the desired effect is to make monster interactions more meaningful, I don't think having them in the way would do much. Running across anything in a small hallway is pretty much already a monster in the way.

I mean, shouldn't that be a valid way of dealing with monsters?  Does the game really need to be balanced for a player who really wants to kill mobs but won't do it unless he's absolutely forced to?

[zebramatt]

Enemies that block things would just encourage me to pop a shield and run through them. That's pretty much what I do right now if I run across something like a clockwork probe in the way of an enchant container. If it's weaker, I might stop and shoot it. So if the desired effect is to make monster interactions more meaningful, I don't think having them in the way would do much. Running across anything in a small hallway is pretty much already a monster in the way.

I mean, shouldn't that be a valid way of dealing with monsters?  Does the game really need to be balanced for a player who really wants to kill mobs but won't do it unless he's absolutely forced to?

Or a player who really doesn't want to kill mobs whenever an alternative is available, for that matter!

[Dizzard]

Does the game really need to go out of it's way to encourage the killing of minor mobs? Aren't they called minor mobs for a reason?

On the other hand....

In Guild Wars (it's sort of like an mmo) when you entered a new area....you could talk to somebody to set up a sort of counter for kills (like a bounty) and then when you killed a certain amount of enemies you got reputation points for the race that you took the bounty quest from.

So perhaps in AVWW every time period group of npcs could have a different view of your hero. So you would have to gain a reputation with each one. Killing minor mobs (maybe specific ones) as bounties (received from an npc in a settlement) could be one way of increasing your reputation (although probably not a very good way of doing it...since minor mobs are farmable)

[Ramarren]

I have preordered AVWW months ago, but haven't played past the intro mission since the infinitely respawning monsters completely killed any sense of accomplishment in combat. I have played the current version a few hours and it feels much better.

So, I have some thoughts from a perspective of a more or less new player about rewards for defeating enemies.

The problem with many of the "kill x of monster y" unlocks is that the only thing they unlock is a new enemy type, which is a good thing from a player perspective since it is more content, but bad from "in character" perspective, since new monsters are more difficult. It would be nice if all unlocks had an in-game positive aspect.

Mobs dropping consciousness shards is definitely bad idea, because for a new player they are nearly useless. Even after guardian powers unlock, most of the initial ones are not really directly useful, other than the wind shelter one, and in any case they are limited by the scrolls, which can only be obtained through missions, and the costs are so low that you will gain more shards in the course of the mission than you could use on the scrolls. A reward for killing mobs, if any, must be much more immediate to influence new players.

I'm not really sure if any rewards are necessary, health drop and just the fact the monster is no longer there seems mostly fine. Although, I think the respawn rate should be pushed back to something on the order of mission expiration. Right now I have seen monsters respawn outside a larger maze rooms. I don't think there is so much backtracking in AVWW that it is necessary to provide monsters to fight when doing it, and it would give a greater sense of "holding back the tide" as it were. And I suppose a small enchant charge drop would be nice (maybe for absorbing health orbs at full health, when those are left behind and just float somewhere I always feel momentary need to go and collect them despite the fact that it's impossible), as long as it is minor addition to containers and the game communicates that properly.

[Terraziel]

And I suppose a small enchant charge drop would be nice (maybe for absorbing health orbs at full health, when those are left behind and just float somewhere I always feel momentary need to go and collect them despite the fact that it's impossible), as long as it is minor addition to containers and the game communicates that properly.

Now, I like that as an idea.
Rewarding people for doing the combat well, rather than just for doing the combat at all, and you could balance the reward such that no rational person is going to be grinding monsters for them.

[tigersfan]

And I suppose a small enchant charge drop would be nice (maybe for absorbing health orbs at full health, when those are left behind and just float somewhere I always feel momentary need to go and collect them despite the fact that it's impossible), as long as it is minor addition to containers and the game communicates that properly.

Now, I like that as an idea.
Rewarding people for doing the combat well, rather than just for doing the combat at all, and you could balance the reward such that no rational person is going to be grinding monsters for them.

I like this idea too.

Also, Ramarren, welcome to the forums!

[Minotaar]

Speaking of dropping consciousness shards...
<shameless_plug>
If this guardian power scaling idea was implemented, there actually would be an incentive to collect lots of shards, and, therefore, a reason to have monsters drop shards!
</shameless_plug>
Other than that, I kind of like Ramarren's idea, but the whole being able to go fully heal yourself thing doesn't really interact well with it. And I can't really think of a simple way of measuring combat performance that doesn't implicate "the only right way to play".

[Ramarren]

Also, Ramarren, welcome to the forums!

Thanks!

Other than that, I kind of like Ramarren's idea, but the whole being able to go fully heal yourself thing doesn't really interact well with it.

I don't think that is actually a problem. Unless I'm missing something the only way to heal other that mob drops is the Ilari at the settlement, and the reward should obviously be balanced so that the time it would take to get to the nearest gate, move to the settlement, and then get back to wherever you were would be better spent either exploring for enchant containers or just healing by killing trash mobs.

[zebramatt]

Other than that, I kind of like Ramarren's idea, but the whole being able to go fully heal yourself thing doesn't really interact well with it.

I don't think that is actually a problem. Unless I'm missing something the only way to heal other that mob drops is the Ilari at the settlement, and the reward should obviously be balanced so that the time it would take to get to the nearest gate, move to the settlement, and then get back to wherever you were would be better spent either exploring for enchant containers or just healing by killing trash mobs.

I agree.

[MaxwellDemonic]

So, what about the Castlevania approach (and I'm referencing the later games), have the monsters drop (on a low% change) something related to them. This could be a rare spell component (based on energy type and tier of course), a usable item (potentially a one use spell), usable secret mission thing (like the Scrolls in Torchlight) , maybe a monster-drop only guardian power (who cares if you stockpile a ton of them, they still require shards). I think that for spell components, they should all be found elsewhere or else you'll have people grind for them. Aren't unlockables the real reward anyway?

My other suggestion would be to have the message window give updates on monster-based unlockables upon reaching a certain point so something like "you are 50% of the way to unlocking (unlockable name), 50 (monster name)s to go". This way monster-based unlockables are clearly a combat reward. With something like that you don't have to add any more complexity while still giving a sense of purpose to combat.

[bvchaosinc]

I seem to be missing a central tenet of this game.

Why is exploration grinding any more or less interesting than combat grinding?

Why is wanting to not kill anything any more or less a valid choice than wanting to kill every thing?

Why don't you reward both play styles equally?

It would seem the if an hour of kicking in doors netted you the same stuff as an hour of monster murdering, that more people would enjoy your game.       

[tigersfan]

I seem to be missing a central tenet of this game.

Why is exploration grinding any more or less interesting than combat grinding?

Why is wanting to not kill anything any more or less a valid choice than wanting to kill every thing?

Why don't you reward both play styles equally?

It would seem the if an hour of kicking in doors netted you the same stuff as an hour of monster murdering, that more people would enjoy your game.     

I think the central tenent that you are overlooking is that this is a game about exploration. This isn't necessarily a game about killing every bad guy you see, just like Metroid isn't about killing every bad guy you see.

As another example, compare Counter-Strike and Ghost Recon. In CS, being a "Rambo" type character where you just let bullets fly all day and just run through the level is a viable option. Good Luck doing that in Ghost Recon.

My point is that not all games have the same focus. In AVWW, the focus is on exploration, and seeing things you've never seen before. It's not on killing every enemy and feeling accomplished by the body count.

[bvchaosinc]

In AVWW, the focus is on exploration, and seeing things you've never seen before. It's not on killing every enemy and feeling accomplished by the body count.

This is not coming threw for me.  After more than 3 chunks in the same tile set it all starts looking the same to me.  I stopped exploring to explore about 2 hours in because I assumed that was not what this game is about.  As I had not found anything more interesting than a new tile set.  I now run from building to building, cave to cave, check the block map for the room type the thing I need spawns in run to it if its their go to a different building if its not.  This does not feel like exploration, this feels like a chain of fetch quests.

[tigersfan]

In AVWW, the focus is on exploration, and seeing things you've never seen before. It's not on killing every enemy and feeling accomplished by the body count.

This is not coming threw for me.  After more than 3 chunks in the same tile set it all starts looking the same to me.  I stopped exploring to explore about 2 hours in because I assumed that was not what this game is about.  As I had not found anything more interesting than a new tile set.  I now run from building to building, cave to cave, check the block map for the room type the thing I need spawns in run to it if its their go to a different building if its not.  This does not feel like exploration, this feels like a chain of fetch quests.

I mean, frankly, if you think that the difference between the ice age regions and say... the junkyards is merely a new tile set, then I'm not sure what we could do to make the areas feel different for you.

[bvchaosinc]

I mean, frankly, if you think that the difference between the ice age regions and say... the junkyards is merely a new tile set, then I'm not sure what we could do to make the areas feel different for you.

No but the difference between buildings in the ice age and buildings in the abandoned town is tile set and baddie population.  Caves in the desert are very similar to caves in the grass lands.  Ruins seems to be annoying and not worth exploring in every time slice I have found them in.  I have gone out looking for clay twice now.  Once I went to the desert once I went to an abandoned town my method of finding them was the same in both cases.  The surface layers of all these places are very nice looking and really convey the feel of their time slice, but as soon as you go inside that goes away.