Author Topic: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.  (Read 32258 times)

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2012, 07:11:00 pm »
I mean, frankly, if you think that the difference between the ice age regions and say... the junkyards is merely a new tile set, then I'm not sure what we could do to make the areas feel different for you.

No but the difference between buildings in the ice age and buildings in the abandoned town is tile set and baddie population.  Caves in the desert are very similar to caves in the grass lands.  Ruins seems to be annoying and not worth exploring in every time slice I have found them in.  I have gone out looking for clay twice now.  Once I went to the desert once I went to an abandoned town my method of finding them was the same in both cases.  The surface layers of all these places are very nice looking and really convey the feel of their time slice, but as soon as you go inside that goes away.     

These are fair points. This is something we'll have to look at. We aren't able to do that right now. But in a few weeks, we should see what we can do about that.

Offline Tallgeese

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2012, 12:22:28 am »
I pretty much registered just to get in on this discussion.

One of the things I have noticed while browsing this forum is that there are complaints about there not being a good reason to try out various spells aside from one or two staples due to the cost of creating the appropriately tiered spell. Some say this is okay, but some don't. I have also seen at least one complaint about how sometimes a player wants to upgrade a certain spell, but it takes a long time for them to find the specific gem component they need in order to do it.

I think monster drops can solve the above sorts of complaints without unbalancing the game.

Judging from other posts I read on the subject, back before the game was released on Steam, there existed a generic spell building component called "dust".

Would it be feasible to bring dust back as a sort of "stand in" component? As in, make 20 (or what have you, just tossing out a number) generic dust stand in for any generic gem for the purposes of crafting a spell? Make the recipe take the gems first, of course.

I would think something like that would communicate to a new player that, yes, they COULD grind monsters for enough dust to make a new spell all by itself, but since the gems are worth much more, it would be obviously more time-efficient to go after actual gems. For the less bloodthirsty player, it could serve as a useful supplement to their gem stock, so that they do not have to go crazy searching for that one last gem they need to complete that desired spell.

This would scratch that itch for constant minor progression. If inclined, you could even throw in a death penalty that takes away a small percentage of your dust.

Just tossing in the idea. It's a fine game.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 01:35:01 am by Tallgeese »

Offline Xanirus

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 08:53:12 am »
Been playing this game for a while and I think I'm amongst a lot of people here agreeing that there should be at least some reward for killing mobs, other than health and unlocking...more mobs.  But I understand the goal of the game being about exploration instead of mindless killing, and in that sense, the exploration should be the activity required to gain your upgrades.

Unfortuantley, I'm coming from playing a lot of dungeon crawlers with RPG aspects (so bear with me if I'm diving too much down this road,) and with the random generation and near endless continents, unfortunately that's the kind of game I'm seeing here, even if that wasn't the game's intent.  I want to explore because of the excitement to find what kind of goodies I can find in all these rooms, not because I wanted to see new lands.  The problem is, this game has enemies too.

I have to be frank, regardless of why some people would call random generation "laziness," I think any game that has it is pure genius in order to keep people playing your game.  It gives the feeling that the game is never done, there will always be something new to explore.  It may not be interesting, but it's something.  But the ones who hate it, are usually expecting the generation to be miraculous, making them want to go WOW at the geometry, and always say it's repetitive when they find out all the layouts are repeated or generic.  But as I see it, there's virtually no way it can't be repetitive.  But a computer needs building blocks, it can't create those blocks on the spot, only a human can.  (Of course, I'm no programmer, maybe I'm wrong)  1,000, 100k, 1 million, it doesn't matter how many "blocks" the game has.  Unless you dedicate every patch to creating more (and I'm sure no one wants to do that) eventually, you're going to see a pattern. 

Metroid, what this game is obviously inspired from, didn't have random generation.  Forgive me for forgetting area names, (it's been a long time since I played Metroid) but I remember lots of elevator like-shafts with doors all alongside the walls.  Whether you personally like that level design or not, it's still unique.  Having unique and interesting level designs is a must if you want your game to be about exploring, making them fun to navigate through simply for the act of navigating, but it's only feasible if you don't plan on your game lasting any more than 20 hours or so.  AVWW is meant to last forever, so you can't do that.  I'm not trying to fault the game for choosing random generation, but since this very game mechanic makes the exploration dip down a bit, you got to balance out the other activity of the game: combat.

But what's the difference between killing an enemy for the loot that it drops, or destroying an enemy because he's guarding it?  Really it's nothing.  I think what we're craving for is some kind of loot or at least something of value from enemies that we can't get from anywhere or by doing anything else.

After reading all the posts, I still think the currency bit is the way to go, but the trick is what would that currency be and what exactly would we be buying?  Also, how would it balance the game out so it doesn't detract too much from it's original intent?  (Exploration)

Enchant Store

I think this would be the most basic reason for currency, as enchants are basically RPG equipment, but since the game's lore is of being right after a world-wide cataclysm and people are working together to survive, it doesn't make any sense for anyone to charge for anything.  So instead of charging some kind of made up money, a gesture that would no doubt be considered selfish in a time of rebuilding civilization, people are simply asking for the crafting components required to make them.  The problem is if the components are existing materials in the game that can be found through exploration alone, it wouldn't solve the problem of killing monsters having no value. 

There would be two ways to do this, a quick way, or another way that caters to the game's Terraria-like (I'm assuming this game was an inspiration too to an extent?) item crafting.  Regardless though, both methods have cons.  The easiest way to to do this is to have all monsters give the same material that would be used to create enchants.  Something that all monsters have, like monster "souls."  (Which of course I know doesn't make sense for robots, but this is just an example.)  Essentially, this is the same thing as cash.  The problem with this is that it might make players see $$ in their eyes whenever they see monsters, and can lead to grinding for cash. 

Another way is for each monster to give some kind of material related to them.  (Robots give metal, espers give, I dunno, essence, and rhinos would give up their horns.)  Effectively, the "body parts" from mobs act as individual currencies, used to create enchants and nothing else.  The problem with this method though is such an method would require time.

As far as the enchants themselves available?  They would be 10 or so randomly generated enchants, (like Diablo) but not necessarily of any better quality than enchants you could of gotten from enchant charges.  (Although a in-game lore reason as to why the stock would keep changing I haven't the foggiest idea, it would still seem like he's a merchant who keeps getting different stock.)  The reward in this is although getting enchants in this method requires more work and a form of currency, the player has more choices of what enchants to get.  (Also, enchant charges should give less "charge" per pickup if this store were to be implemented....or remove that one room which is a giant maze that has like 15 or so enchant charges, I always thought this room was overkill TBH.)  This provides another choice of how to gain enchants, leaving the player to decide if he would rather procure the enchants by blasting enemies, or exploring, leaving no game activity more viable than than other.  The enchants from the store would of course be improved as the tier increases on that continent.

An alternative to the above would be to have the enchant charges give you, instead of an enchant, an item that can be inserted into an enchant that boosts it's effects.  This would provide a way reason for the player to focus on "both" activities (combat and exploring) albeit maybe forcefully so.

Buff/Powerup Store
Someone earlier mentioned this, but instead of dropping from enemies, these can be consumable "potions" sorta speak.  Temporary effects, things like 10% HP increase for 5 minutes, or 5% increase chance of enemies to drop a particular material when killed.

Energy Tanks
Yes, I realize this may alienate the whole permadeath thing with no way to heal other than killing enemies, but it's just a random thought.  Why not have Metroid/Mega Man energy tanks in the game?  As it is, any person is going to choose whatever combat difficulty he's comfortable with, which means they're probably not getting hit and leaving a lot of health orbs behind.  With energy tanks, whenever your health is full, collecting health orbs will start filling up a tank little by little.  The amount it can heal can be mitigated, by say for i.e. having energy tanks NOT purchasable and instead be very very rare finds, making them consumable items, or setting the healing consumption rate only to half.  (Filling a tank by 2 HP would only heal 1 HP when consumed.)

While not necessarily a gameplay enhancing option, this is for us trophy gamers who take pride in defeating things for the sake of defeating things.  Plain and simple, have an in-game statistic counter.  Espers kills, robots kills, total enemies killed, etc.  (The statistics would also display player deaths, missions completed, and other random stuff.)  Each world would have their own statistics for that player.

Oh man, I just spent 2 hours doing this.  Time for sleep.  I'm sorry if these suggestions are going out of hand.

EDIT:  Okay, maybe scratch the buff store, just found out that's what the guardian scrolls are for.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:24:13 am by Xanirus »

Offline khadgar

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2012, 06:32:27 am »
Killing enemies should be it's own reward, in that you won't run in to those monsters any more. Now that monsters respawn, it's not. I mean, sure, putting a few new monsters in a zone you thought clear is fine, but having the entire zone reset after 5/10/50 minutes? Meh, no point to fighting them anymore. Just equip the best triple or double jump enchant I have, and storm dash across the map. If I'm low on health, the LAST thing I want to do is fight monsters, I might DIE! Going to town is always easier and safer (chosen one), even if it means climbing out of a house or cave to do it.

In the earlier betas, wiping out the monster nests netted you a nice clear area to walk through. Though it left the areas relatively barren afterwards, what is wrong with that? Maybe as the strategic side of things gets flushed out more, a sort of thing can be implemented wherein once you defeat a certain boss or mission thing, monsters will no longer respawn. What about those weird towers that you guys had pre continents? I don't remember what they were or what they were supposed to do (something about... not being able to pass through them? I dont know) Have some kind of thing that you can activate to disable monster respawning in an area of some sort, for a time, if not permanently.

Offline bvchaosinc

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2012, 10:09:10 am »
HP tanks would be stellar.  It would make what baddies already drop useful and worth fighting for as well as sticking with your metroidvania formula.

Also stopping baddies from spawning in cleared areas(but not from migrating from uncleared areas) would be cool and give a sense of take back the land.

That said I would still like it if baddies drop crafting components.

Offline junker154

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2012, 01:54:46 pm »
What about adding a bar to a continent which shows the strengh of the presence of all the enemies, so if you fight and defeat loads of enemies this bar will deplete which makes the continent less dangerous and more habitable. Maybe when the bar reaches a certain point the player will be rewarded with some items/bonuses or maybe give him so advantages for a certain time. Or rescuing villagers and gathering ressources becomes easier.

This bar will increase if you idle for to long or cease to fight monsters. So throughout the playthrough you have a minor sidegoal, it is optional but gives the combat a deeper purpose.

Offline Xanirus

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 04:44:11 am »
Normally, I don't like long adventure type games where you can (or forced to) re-visit old areas with nothing to fight because you already defeated everything, hence the respawn.  But then again I forgot this game never ends, so disabling spawning wouldn't be too bad, if, however, we are negating the idea of having some reward from enemies in the first place, which I hope we're not.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:45:54 am by Xanirus »

Offline darkchair

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 08:23:52 pm »
Some ideas:  (sorry if they've been mentioned before, just skipping half the replies for now)

Story Rewards:

Have the monsters that drop something that advances the story somehow.

Perhaps you need a certain amount of drops to open the doors into the current puzzle rooms?
Perhaps you unlock fun little stories about random people?

Enemy Cohesion:

Saw this mentioned earlier, I'm a huge fan.
If you could have enemies randomly blockade certain parts of the map with a magical barrier or anti-air turrets or something it would add character to running around and make combat more interesting.

Temporary Spells:

Along the lines other people have suggested, maybe the monsters could randomly drop spell components that can make temporary high level spells with limited uses. (Like you could make a tier 4 miasma whip during CP level 2 but it would be destroyed after 30 uses)

Vanity Rewards:

I'm not really a fan personally but you could reward vanity items for killing enough trash mobs.
I would rather vanity items come from more interesting, rewarding reasons.

Offline Xanirus

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 01:06:42 am »
I believe I once killed a certain amount of enemies and I unlocked part one of the mysteries, which is sort of part of the story, well, back-story really.

EDIT:  Okay, maybe not.

It's hard for story to "advance" in this game, since you keep moving on to new on continents onto infinity.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 04:09:22 am by Xanirus »

Offline Qba

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2012, 02:38:32 pm »
When I first saw this game, I thought that my dreams come true! I waited for years for this game. I'm not interested in any of the new games that are now on top. This game is fantastic! I also understand that the game designers want to make something trully original to this game. Please tell me what is so wrong with gaining experience? This game is quite original in order to have the levels of experience. 2d Morrowind  :) I like it! Especially That is enough space above the mana bar for, for example white bar of experience, progress to next level  :) What's wrong is in grinding? Personally, I always loved when my character reached a high level of experience.This is only one missed thing in this game for me. Killing monsters is really boring... My three friends come to the conclusion that this game is not for them - through lack of experience,I think I'm not alone. I read what Chris wrote, and I know there is no way to improve the game witch exp. But you can always try  :) That is why I speaking in this forum only once. This is my first post Ever. seriously!  :) I'm glad that is the reason for me to write my first post in my life, exactly on this forum. Don't  get me wrong, but I really think that something is missing in this game. I understand that the characters in this game are random, and you can really die unexpectedly, but look at it from the other side: If our cannon fodder die so quickly, it would have to be really hard to trying to achieve a higher level. Chris also wrote that if it was the experience, players will have the oportunity to fast grinding to highest level. Ok, I agree with this, but notice that the difficulty levels in the game are  really hard(especially the last three of them) so that theoretically, achieve a high level would be(anyway) very difficult. In this case in settlement may be for example a tombstone like a highscore - All dead Glymphbearers will be written on this "grave" like a "in memorial" And also will be saved scores in three columns like : Name / Level / Monsters killed. This is just my idea to keep already dead characters in glory!  :)
One more thing: This game really reminds me a great commodore remake - "Hurrican"in this game, I never thought about the experience - there is no point about that for me. I walked simply from point A to point B - and ... Level finished! Simply platform game. But AVWW is too GREAT and too BIG to be without some kind of experience reward for player! (I know I'm a maniac of RPG games!)  ;) I think the idea of experience is not so stupid, I mean, for example, you meet a guy on the 90 level, and think: Wow! this guy rules!... A few minutes later - wow this guy dies!  :) In this game you can die very quickly. Independently of the level of experience that might exist. In my case, I would be angry for a while when my character was died on higher level, but after a moment I will try with pleasure to play and gathering up experience to next character. It works for me - You died? It's your problem... then you must start over! This is my opinion.That's all, thanks!

What do you think?

Don't beat me for my english, please!  :) I hope that you understood me.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 02:56:35 pm by Qba »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies.
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2012, 06:13:47 am »
Hi Mr Park!

I wanted to ask - have you ever played a Monster Hunter game?

I think there could be some merit in using a simple crafting system for consumables rather than just having a vendor for them. You could get monsters to contribute drops towards such a system - say, kill 1 robots and get screws or nails, which you use with cedar logs to make crates. It'd solve the problem with building up a HUGE stockpile of crafting ingredients (especially with this new update coming up) and then never needing to go hunting again.

I really like moon orbs! I kind of dislike the flash of light spell because it made them sorta obsolete - and I like games where you have to plan your expeditions and supply yourself accordingly beforehand (although yes, some people find this gameplay very annoying indeed!). Right now, the primary way of getting consumables like platforms, crates and moon orbs is from finding stashes in buildings, but you mentioned that there'll be some changes to stashes in the works, and it was kind of frustrating trying to hunt down moon orbs to sustain my moon orb only no-flash playstyle, so I eventually caved in to using Flash of Light (RNG isn't reliable). We have ilari vendors using generic shards, but that's plain uninteresting (heatsuits and snowsuits are cheap) and the items they sell are in such huge quantities that I'm kind of puzzled why there even exists a limitation on platforms and crates - they may as well be infinite in supply.

With monster hunter, it was always nice to be able to plan expeditions keeping future expeditions in mind - items were limited (you couldn't carry more than 9 potions at once - want any more and you had to craft them in the field) and it really lent an immersive aspect to the survival bent of the game. The "scrounging/salvaging things" appeal has been around ever since Robinson Crusoe and the Swiss Family Robinson.

AVWW is at its core a Man versus Environment survival game, no? But there's no real survival pressure outside of windstorms (and the most preparation I've found vs windstorms is just to bring the no blowback enchant on a swap) - once people are rescued, they pretty much stagnate around the Ilari and don't really do much of anything. Defeating enemies doesn't just have to solely be to combat the overlord, forcing combat for survival purposes is a cool concept too.


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