Starships in the sequel

[WolfWhiteFire]

Well kasnavada, for one I have said nothing for or against sniper units, and personally I never use the sniper units in classic.

Hu, this ?

Okay, you quoted the small part where I conceded that there is one thing that might cause concern about that, then left out all the reasons I mentioned why I feel it isn't a concern. Also another reason I can add is that though it could mean reduced budget for balancing, it comes with a most likely equal or greater reduction in the budget for features that would need the balancing budget. So there would be less money for balancing but still less that needs to be balanced.

[kasnavada]

That's because I feel like you're underestimating the lower budget impact, compared to your other reasons. I'd give this a weigh of 10, your other reasons, however many they are, could be a 3-5 in terms of impact.

[Cyborg]

I think we're getting to0 caught up in what's gosu, kek. (Am I doing it right? Hu.)

But seriously, derp aside (baha, meme dialect switch!), I think you all are worrying about a whole lot of nothing prematurely. It's way too early to be drawing lines in the sand about being too hard to learn or whatever. This game isn't for call of duty gamers. It never was and probably never will be. People are going to have to think and learn things.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm opposed to improving the way of educating, or making the tooltips better, tutorials, trying to make things clear, etc. I'm certainly not. I don't want any obfuscation if it's not necessary.

But the quickest way to sink this game is to dumb it down. I'm not opposed to anything that doesn't dumb it down. Get rid of the useless clicking, pre-optimized strategies, whatever… but keep the game smart.

[Kahuna]

I agree that long range ships are better in general and that kiting the AI is often the most cost effective option. However it's not as simple as "long range ships > short range ships". I have used Mark IV Bomber Starships on 10/10 difficulty a couple of times and they were extremely effective at cleaning "not so well defended" AI planets. During big AI attacks and when I attacked the AI homeworlds they worked as cannon fodder as long as AI Fighters were out of range and they also did a lot of damage.

There are situations where you just can't run away and you will have to face the AI head on. Like when the AI sends waves and CPAs. When the AI ships get closer and closer to your command station you have nowhere to run so you have to stand and fight or you lose the command station. So in that case it doesn't matter that much if your ship has 50000 range or 5000 range. Sure ships with longer range tend to survive longer but when you're defending against an attack with your back against the wall it can be a good thing that your ships work as a cannon fodder to make your force fields last longer. And they're_ships_so they can be rebuilt pretty quickly. And since you're under attack you're getting a lot of salvage so rebuilding the ships shouldn't be a problem (in terms of having enough metal).


And you_can_have overwhelming odds on 10/10 difficulty level too even though it's not as easy.

But even on 10/10 diff you don't need to unlock every single mark level of every ship and starship level to achieve superiority in firepower. End game after you have unlocked enough defenses you're probably gonna wanna at least get Mark IV Bombers. Then possibly Mark IIs of other triangle ships and/or Mark II or Mark IV bonus ships and a few additional starships. Possibly Mark II Flagships unless you have Munitions Boosters as a bonus ship. A fleet like that supported by Engineers, Mobile Space Docks and Warheads is capable of taking out AI Homeworlds.

Without any support it can clean up any AI planet that hasn't been on alert for hours in-game time. Ion Cannons, OMDs and things like that need to handled by Raider Starships and Assault Transports or some teleporting/cloaked ships regardless of fleet composition. AI planets that have accumulated hundreds of guards can probably be handled too if you have unlocked additional Riot Starships as you can kite the AI around. If the planet has supply beachheading helps a lot too.

Against Special Forces, Reserves and Core worlds you will need Warheads regardless of how many ships you unlock (I don't know about Fallen Spire campaign).

So things aren't quite as black & white imo. I still agree that just having tons and tons of options (not that I'd think there is going to be in AIW2) isn't always good. Look at the bonus ships in AI War Classic. There are quite a few bad ships and I'd_never_pick so it's almost as if they didn't exist. Surely it feels satisfying to slaughter 40000 AI Autocannons but I'd never pick Autocannon myself as there are other ships that fill the same role but are way superior. Riot Starship's modules are quite balanced imo.

Shield Bearers are pretty much game breaking in AIs hands. First of all AI gets literally hundreds of them. And they and everyting they cover are immune to tractor beams so all the AI ships just fly next to your command stations and destroy it. Zenith Siege Engines (Keith's mental file about Kahuna's grudge against ZSEs gets loaded into the working memory and the filter activates) I've complained about before and I shall again. Again AI gets hundreds and hundreds of them. That combined with their long range and their bonus damage against force fields - and everything under them - makes them a no go. I don't hate them just for the heck of it. I dislike them because they're too powerful imo. Can't say much about other ships in Ancient Shadows because ZSGs make me disable the whole expansion because it's "the only way to be sure" I don't get them in my game. Imo that's a problem. So problems like that can occur when a lot of content gets slapped in.

add & add & add until it's a mess

Thankfully the nerf/buff hammer was swung many times.

EDIT: Almost forgot to say. I think what Keith proposed in the first post sounds good. Also I think Mark levels would be better than "Cruiser", "Battleship" etc. They could be saved for the Spire.

[keith.lamothe]

Zenith Siege Engines (Keith's mental file about Kahuna's grudge against ZSEs gets loaded into the working memory and the filter activates) I've complained about before and I shall again. Again AI gets hundreds and hundreds of them. That combined with their long range and their bonus damage against force fields - and everything under them - makes them a no go. I don't hate them just for the heck of it. I dislike them because they're too powerful imo. Can't say much about other ships in Ancient Shadows because ZSGs make me disable the whole expansion because it's "the only way to be sure" I don't get them in my game. Imo that's a problem. So problems like that can occur when a lot of content gets slapped in.

Yea, ZSE's are a good example of what happens when we keep adding new units without a solid and coherent idea of how to balance things. We wanted a new siege-themed unit, and we wanted it to be different than the existing ones (hence the must-stop-before-loading thing), but that differentiation made it a pain to use for the player so we had to make it powerful enough for the player to want to bother, which in turn made it OP in AI hands since the AI doesn't care as long as the thing eventually fires...

On the shield bearers, you basically won't see forcefield generation on anything smaller than a starship. Whether that helps this case or not, we'll see.

The AI's capacity for annoying unit spam is legendary

[Draco18s]

On the shield bearers, you basically won't see forcefield generation on anything smaller than a starship. Whether that helps this case or not, we'll see.

I am ok with making Shield Bearers starships.

[Kahuna]

when we keep adding new units without a solid and coherent idea of how to balance things.

My sarcasm detector went off as I read that.
Bluntly put. As were parts of my post I guess.

The AI's capacity for annoying unit spam is legendary

It sure is!

Annoying/nasty things are fine as long as they can be countered reasonably. Basically AI having Shield Bearers = unlock Mark III Gravitational turrets and Mark IV Needler and Laser turrets before anything else. ZSEs = unlock Mark IV Sniper and Spider turrets before anything else. Both of these cases need a lot of knowledge. Getting knowledge increases the AIP. So the contrast between the impact of AI getting Shield Bearers/ZSGs vs any other ship is too high.
EDIT: On the other hand there are some quite weak ships so when the AI unlocks those it's not a big deal. Meh maybe I just need to suck it up and lower the difficulty level? Nah..    ..I actually got motivated to grind AIW again.. I might try to find an effective and safe way to play against both of those ships that are my only cryptonites during the holidays.

[keith.lamothe]

when we keep adding new units without a solid and coherent idea of how to balance things.

My sarcasm detector went off as I read that.
Bluntly put. As were parts of my post I guess.

Not sarcastic at all, actually. I slowed down the rate of new bonus ships and whatnot in an effort to keep it from getting too ridiculous, but in general we layered questionably-balanced stuff on top of questionably-balanced stuff for a long enough time that the result is a game with a bunch of reasonably balanced stuff, some woefully UP stuff, and some nastily OP stuff. It would be a better game without the latter two categories, though some of the OP units add their own kind of fun (protector starships, whee!!)

It was refined over time, and could be further refined, but it's better to start with a foundation where we can make sure it's reasonably balanced before we start stacking stuff on top.

[Draco18s]

See also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc

"Previous week":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA

And more general talk about power creep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

[Tridus]

It would be a better game without the latter two categories, though some of the OP units add their own kind of fun (protector starships, whee!!)

And they're a beautiful, hilarious thing.

[Atepa]

EDIT: On the other hand there are some quite weak ships so when the AI unlocks those it's not a big deal. Meh maybe I just need to suck it up and lower the difficulty level? Nah..    ..I actually got motivated to grind AIW again.. I might try to find an effective and safe way to play against both of those ships that are my only cryptonites during the holidays.

Both at the same time... right? 

[Kahuna]

I'd like to add that Plasma Siege Starships actually have the same problem as Zenith Siege Egniness and it's because of the ability they both have. It becomes a game of "can you destroy the Plasma Siege Starships/Zenith Siege Engines before they get in range to shoot at your Command Station and one shot it even though it's protected by quadrillion Force Fields so it could withstand the punishment of Mark V AI Bombers for hours". Thankfully the Home Command Station is immune to that.

Both at the same time... right? 

Playing against 10 Raid Engine Vengeful / 10 Artillerist Vorpal and am doing decently but I'm still in early game. What I wrote above made alt F4 once. Also there is a huge delay when you destroy the "leader ship" of an exo galactic strike force (usually Raider Starship). All the other ships have the same speed as that leader ship as long as it's alive. But they all still keep moving at that high speed like a minute after I've destroyed the leader ship. They also ignore all Gravitational Turrets as long as the leader is alive. That's silly.

[Atepa]

Playing against 10 Raid Engine / 10 Artillerist Vorpal and am doing decently but I'm still in early game. What I wrote above made alt F4 once. Also there is a huge delay when you destroy the "leader ship" of an exo galactic strike force (usually Raider Starship). All the other ships have the same speed as that leader ship as long as it's alive. But they all still keep moving at that high speed like a minute after I've destroyed the leader ship. They also ignore all Gravitational Turrets as long as the leader is alive. That's silly.

That sounds like a vicious fight... do you record / stream / AAR your games? I'd love to read/watch it.

[keith.lamothe]

I'd like to add that Plasma Siege Starships actually have the same problem as Zenith Siege Egniness and it's because of the ability they both have. It becomes a game of "can you destroy the Plasma Siege Starships/Zenith Siege Engines before they get in range to shoot at your Command Station and one shot it even though it's protected by quadrillion Force Fields so it could withstand the punishment of Mark V AI Bombers for hours". Thankfully the Home Command Station is immune to that.

Yea, I don't plan to carry that over. In general shields (forcefields) will be a lot more reliable, though you will likely have a harder time acquiring quadrillions of them.

Also there is a huge delay when you destroy the "leader ship" of an exo galactic strike force (usually Raider Starship). All the other ships have the same speed as that leader ship as long as it's alive. But they all still keep moving at that high speed like a minute after I've destroyed the leader ship. They also ignore all Gravitational Turrets as long as the leader is alive. That's silly.

My plan is to have that effect no longer be "pure" magic, and instead have a special "Cohesion Guardian" units in each exo that actually provide the speed change. So it's more obvious in-game what you have to kill. And having their death cause a more immediate update of movement speed.

[Kahuna]

Playing against 10 Raid Engine Vengeful / 10 Artillerist Vorpal and am doing decently but I'm still in early game. What I wrote above made alt F4 once. Also there is a huge delay when you destroy the "leader ship" of an exo galactic strike force (usually Raider Starship). All the other ships have the same speed as that leader ship as long as it's alive. But they all still keep moving at that high speed like a minute after I've destroyed the leader ship. They also ignore all Gravitational Turrets as long as the leader is alive. That's silly.

That sounds like a vicious fight... do you record / stream / AAR your games? I'd love to read/watch it.

(I forgot to mention the Raid Engine is also vengeful.)
I've thought about streaming or otherwise recording AIW gameplay but I don't know which software to use. Don't know how people stream stuff and if my computer could handle it. And I have been too lazy and/or busy to do the research on that. I've also been very inconsistent with my gaming recently since my engineering studies (and working out too) are taking most of my time and energy nowadays.

I'd like to add that Plasma Siege Starships actually have the same problem as Zenith Siege Egniness and it's because of the ability they both have. It becomes a game of "can you destroy the Plasma Siege Starships/Zenith Siege Engines before they get in range to shoot at your Command Station and one shot it even though it's protected by quadrillion Force Fields so it could withstand the punishment of Mark V AI Bombers for hours". Thankfully the Home Command Station is immune to that.

Yea, I don't plan to carry that over. In general shields (forcefields) will be a lot more reliable, though you will likely have a harder time acquiring quadrillions of them.

Also there is a huge delay when you destroy the "leader ship" of an exo galactic strike force (usually Raider Starship). All the other ships have the same speed as that leader ship as long as it's alive. But they all still keep moving at that high speed like a minute after I've destroyed the leader ship. They also ignore all Gravitational Turrets as long as the leader is alive. That's silly.

My plan is to have that effect no longer be "pure" magic, and instead have a special "Cohesion Guardian" units in each exo that actually provide the speed change. So it's more obvious in-game what you have to kill. And having their death cause a more immediate update of movement speed.

Sounds good.