Arcen Games

General Category => AI War II => : x4000 August 31, 2016, 09:41:41 AM

: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 09:41:41 AM
Okay, there were too many conflicting things that I and others said in the other thread, and it was becoming a spiraling mess of discussion that was becoming quickly unhelpful to anyone, so let's try again.   Most of the blame on that was mine for not being clear and for giving conflicting requests from the start.

Chief Organizer: Cinth/b]
Cinth is the chief organizer of this document, so I want people to actually listen to him. ;)  It's very useful to have a specific person in charge of organizing anything that is created by a group, and in this case I don't want that person to be me (since that kind of defeats the point).  I'm doing my best to clarify what I want out of the document from my end, and then I'm leaving Cinth in charge of actually "making it so."  Thank you to everyone!

The Document Link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E78-KtgIKyAExd9VpIKe2aXEKFO14A8b9zRLwRENkRk/edit#

My Overall Goals (Meta)
I'm describing these as meta-goals, because there are any number of ways to get at these.  But these are the core intents of what I'm trying to set up, and I think that this is important to establish.

1. I want to have a comprehensive way of viewing everything from AI War Classic (ideally ignoring expansion status or origin history but including everything, since everything is equal for our purposes here regardless of when it was added or why).

2. I want to have a way for people to give me subjective feelings about units (and thus the related mechanics) that they like or hate, and why.  This is NOT A PLACE TO ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER.  Not yet. ;)

3. Based on that list and the related feedback, plus my own feelings and knowledge of underlying structure of the game code (which units share code bits and bobs), I'm going to work on the design document.

4. I'm looking to have wider game mechanics in here along with the units, because I don't really care about units.  Really this document is meant to be a "What's in AI War Classic (and let's not forget Kevin in the attic)" list.  Speaking about things in terms of how you felt about them in AI War Classic is useful to hear because that's how you think about them historically.  That said, ultimately I'm looking for cross-connections and mechanics.

What I Will Do With This (Concrete)
By parsing all of the commentary, and looking at the common themes and so forth, I'll be working on the design document from a features-standpoint.  Or rather, a mechanics standpoint.

The design document will contain no ship designs, AI type designs, or specific plots or whatever else along those lines.  Those things are data that can easily be haggled over in a moddable game such as this, during the early access period and before.

My goals in the design document are the following
1. To make sure that all of the TOOLS are there so that people can create all their favorite things, or so that we can create them for you.

2. To make sure that I'm not missing any tools that you/we will need to do that, so that our scope is complete and understood from a coding standpoint.

3. To make it clear what tools and mechanics are going to intentionally be left behind either permanently or for AIW2 v1.0, either because of coding complexity, bad interactions with other features, redundancy, weight on the CPU that isn't worth what you get out of it, or simple dislike by players.

Therefore, things you can skip commentary on...
I don't need to know how you feel about laser gatlings, or how you feel about bombers versus frigates versus fighters.  Honestly those are just numbers juggling things with art.  All of those could be modded in or out at will.

THAT said, things like the hull types discussion here on the forums (or other ways of creating triangles of ships) are really useful, and my feeling is that simply being reminded "oh yeah, that thing exists from expansion 5" might spark some thoughts from someone that then leads to useful discourse here on the forum in one of those mechanics-focused threads.

About organization
1. I would like to have this all in one document, because then it is easier for me to peruse and react to all in one place.  A trello is infinitely more daunting to me, because I have to dip in and out constantly and I can't tell what is updated and what is not, etc.

2. Having this all in one document also encourages people to keep their thoughts brief.  You don't have to sell me on anything.  If I disagree with what you say in a way that would impact the design document, then I'll make a topic and we can discuss that in more depth.  What I need right now is "just the facts m'am" in such a way that I can most efficiently create the design document core.  I am attempting to be similarly brief yet clear there.

3. The reason I don't care about expansions is that I really want to be expansion-blind.  So organizing it by that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  I should have said that upfront.

4. If there are units of like types, then grouping those together is good.

5. If you want to make a section of "ships that are just variants of other ships with different shooty values," then that might help with organization and lower the intimidation factor for everyone.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
I certainly enjoy the salvage mechanic, however I will say that it is a in the big picture like a band-aid for netflix time. An evolutionary update. So if a newer, more efficient mechanic that is revolutionary in nature occurs then the salvage mechanic may not be necessary.

Edit: So Chris structured like this?
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Aklyon August 31, 2016, 09:52:20 AM
This explains it much better, Chris.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 09:55:06 AM
Awesome, glad to help. :)
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 09:56:54 AM
Hacking is a really obscure mechanic including how it is obtained and how it is executed. I would want it to be refined to be far easier to understand and to discourage hoarding it until the end game.

Journal entries are an excellent way to provide narrative, so the code structure to allow them to be used in creative ways is ideal, including from its potential use in mods.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 10:01:29 AM
Let's keep the discussion of specific mechanics to their respective threads, particularly if they are going to be large and theoretically contentious, if you don't mind -- I've got separate threads for those two things for you.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 10:05:05 AM
Added note in the above, relating to this document:

Chief Organizer: Cinth/b]
Cinth is the chief organizer of this document, so I want people to actually listen to him. ;)  It's very useful to have a specific person in charge of organizing anything that is created by a group, and in this case I don't want that person to be me (since that kind of defeats the point).  I'm doing my best to clarify what I want out of the document from my end, and then I'm leaving Cinth in charge of actually "making it so."  Thank you to everyone!
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 10:14:06 AM
Trying really hard to format this thread correctly (I am trying to stay organized the best I can). Thanks for the guidancce:

While I enjoy boosting units (armor boostings, munitions boosters, shield bearers) What I find annoying is how to keep full use out of them unless ALL ships stay together. Wish there was a way they could stay attached together with a "mother" unit.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
Wish there was a way they could stay attached together with a "mother" unit.

THIS IS FREAKING BRILLIANT.

Thanks for that! :)
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth August 31, 2016, 10:18:25 AM
Wish there was a way they could stay attached together with a "mother" unit.

THIS IS FREAKING BRILLIANT.

Thanks for that! :)

Actually I think something like the formations from Homeworld might work.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 10:24:55 AM
Yes scaling things up formations in general would be great.  You could build upon that and give units stances that dictate behavior. So for example carriers are static, suicide units are aggressive, etc.

Would overall allow a streamlining of units that ultimately cuts down on micro.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: x4000 August 31, 2016, 10:28:48 AM
It's been a while since I played Homeworld, and I kind of bounced off of it.  I've played other games with stances, though, and frankly things like attack-move and FRD and so on are based around that concept.  What's the difference here?
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth August 31, 2016, 10:33:05 AM
I was more thinking in terms of Control groups actually moving at group speed and such.  That would keep specific units together all the time.

Formations in HW were just a pretty way to show that in 3d.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 10:37:02 AM
I really don't want to get into the weeds for something like this (could use its own thread) so I will just say that new options to control units on the control group level would be great. The actual how should be fleshed out elsewhere.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Pumpkin August 31, 2016, 11:10:20 AM
Thanks a lot for clarifying your goals.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: kasnavada August 31, 2016, 12:00:58 PM
formations
That deserves a better thread, but... If formations lead to the removal of FRD and attack move in AI war, basically... That'll kill the uniqueness of AI war movement for me.

What I love here is that the units decide for themselves to group. That one double click or one rectangle on the screen is a new group.
If you put up formations in a game, basically you don't control thousands of units. You control a few dozen, which displayed as lot of dots moving arounds. That's fine in other games, but that's not AI war.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art August 31, 2016, 09:04:11 PM
tl;dr : Keep the crystal shard logic from the Spire campaign so it can be flushed out for other uses.

the tl:

Procedural generated "quests" mid game.

The idea of this is to provide what in other games be called "quests" that would occur mid game to provide players guidance and rewards for accomplishing goals. These quests would not be addressed as such but by terms that would work mid game.

The function of these events are to provide variation and guidance in the mid game, which can easily become overwhelming and boring if one does not already know what to do. I know there was progress in making lists of things the player could accomplish, but even these lists got overwhelming and bland.

I am thinking of using the logic that Spire crystals did in their campaign in terms of procedural generated events. That event in itself could be a tool of one the possible events: Escort X to Y for Z reward. Obviously escort missions would not be the only thing, but that is kind of the goal of this.

The rewards, etc, can be worked on down the road but the concept is what I am purposing.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Draco18s August 31, 2016, 10:54:36 PM
I realize there's a lot less flexibility for quests in an RTS, but it reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otAkP5VjIv8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur6GQp5mCYs

Edit:
I had to add part 1 as well.  There's good detail in both videos.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: chemical_art September 01, 2016, 12:30:07 AM
I realize there's a lot less flexibility for quests in an RTS, but it reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otAkP5VjIv8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur6GQp5mCYs

Edit:
I had to add part 1 as well.  There's good detail in both videos.

I am glad I read that in chronological order.

For the second part said "You can understand this convoluted quests if you watch the eyes [minor detail] then..."

And that I consider just as bad design. And reading that actually soured the good feelings of the first one. One person's "lore building" is for me "far too much attention to minor details". I should not have to ask random people in the hope one of them gives me a hint that leads to me another person. Nor should I hope to observe a minor visual detail to start a quest. One may consider random talking to people good encouragement. I view it just like fishing instead of with actual fish you are doing it with virtual people. You know, like a detective. Also known as a job that people pay because they do not want to do it themselves.

I will admit that did make me wonder about for a moment about why the quests structure is what it is...but after I thought about it for a few minutes I recognized the "superior" methods are really not in any way better for in my eyes they are both tedium.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Draco18s September 01, 2016, 12:49:57 AM
2:50 in the first one is more the kind of thing I'd want to see.  Not necessarily the specific implementation, but the kinds of details.  Stuff that is more....narrative.  "You find a ring at the bottom of a lake, no explanation, the ring's got OK stats, but the flavor text says that the ring has an inscription, 'a promise for a lifetime', later you encounter a guy who tells you a story about a woman who threw herself off a cliff after the city guards killed her husband. You mention the ring you found near that area and he mentions that the barkeep's daughter had a ring with that inscription..."

The barkeep never said anything about a daughter, the fact that she was dead, or her missing ring.  Rather you found the ring first and a series of other encounters led you back to him.  Nothing said "this is a quest" on it.  No exclamation points over people's heads, none of that.

Yeah the quest in The Secret World involving the sewer plates is a bit much, but the point he was making there was that a small detail of the world you wouldn't otherwise notice takes on new meaning once it's pointed out.  It's not a series of yellow dots on a minimap, there's no waypoint that says "go here."  Instead it's built into the world before hand.  The whole "look it up on Wikipedia" ends up just clunky.  But that wasn't the part I found amazing about it, what I found awesome was the fact that the signposts leading you down a path were completely innocuous before being told they were sign posts.  True secret society stuff, which fit right in with that particular game.

Anyway, in an RTS set in space, we're not going to see many opportunities for stuff like that, the conversation just reminded me of it.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Pumpkin September 01, 2016, 11:42:35 AM
Hey, Chris! How are things going? Are you satisfied by the document, right now? Are we going in the right direction? Are there more specific needs?
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Kahuna September 01, 2016, 12:02:15 PM
Apparently Champions are so forgettable that they haven't been added to that document that has literally everything (except Champions) listed, including the kitchen sink. I'd not miss Champions if they were left out.
Champions are especially fiddly and micro heavy. Also imo the fact that they respawn endlessly every time they have been destroyed seems kind of cheap to me.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth September 01, 2016, 12:10:20 PM
Apparently Champions are so forgettable that they haven't been added to that document that has literally everything (except Champions) listed, including the kitchen sink.

That is false.  They just haven't been put up into the main body yet (the shadow frigates are the first stage of the champions).

I'm still finding units to put on the list so I haven't had opportunity to do much there.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: tadrinth September 01, 2016, 05:44:14 PM
Chris, you said you want mechanics and that this is to serve as a basis for a design doc.  That means you want not just unit mechanics, but basically all the mechanics in the game, right?  Everything you'd have to code.  That's broad and I don't see anyone else adding that kind of stuff.

How much detail do you want? Like, do you just want a line that carriers contain ai units, or do you want notes on each distinct mechanic associated with carriers? Like, they deploy ships when they enounter humans, they transfer damage to internal units, they power up based on the strength of units contained, they disappear when empty, they use bullheaded targetting... Carriers are complicated. Do you want all that detail? 
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth September 01, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
Chris, you said you want mechanics and that this is to serve as a basis for a design doc.  That means you want not just unit mechanics, but basically all the mechanics in the game, right?  Everything you'd have to code.  That's broad and I don't see anyone else adding that kind of stuff.

How much detail do you want? Like, do you just want a line that carriers contain ai units, or do you want notes on each distinct mechanic associated with carriers? Like, they deploy ships when they enounter humans, they transfer damage to internal units, they power up based on the strength of units contained, they disappear when empty, they use bullheaded targetting... Carriers are complicated. Do you want all that detail?

If it's in the game, yes, by all means add it to the list.  Be complete but please be brief.  Just going to point out that Carriers are on the list and have a brief description already added.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Misery September 01, 2016, 10:06:12 PM
It's really interesting to look at this document and see some of the stuff written about all these different things.

It's also interesting to see just HOW MANY different things there are.  You've really got your work cut out for you here, eh?

Also I hadn't realized there were that many Astro Trains.   


: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Captain Jack September 02, 2016, 12:07:13 AM
It's really interesting to look at this document and see some of the stuff written about all these different things.

It's also interesting to see just HOW MANY different things there are.  You've really got your work cut out for you here, eh?

Also I hadn't realized there were that many Astro Trains.
A lot of work went into making Trains work. NEEDLESS TO SAY...

Real talk: Astro Trains should be considered very carefully, and Chris/Keith should dump them the second they start thinking "Maybe with a few more days I can fix this!".
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: PokerChen September 02, 2016, 12:21:07 AM
Two points:
1) Real talk should go into the doc.
2) Given that there's going to be 300++ entries at least, I'm more inclined to bet that Chris will take the essentials and build again from the ground up than try to port the whole game over.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Draco18s September 02, 2016, 12:22:47 AM
A lot of work went into making Trains work. NEEDLESS TO SAY...

Real talk: Astro Trains should be considered very carefully, and Chris/Keith should dump them the second they start thinking "Maybe with a few more days I can fix this!".

Astro Trains: Lets Talk (https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,18975.0.html)
I already formulated an idea that Chris liked, feel free to chime in.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Pumpkin September 02, 2016, 03:05:10 AM
Chris, you said you want mechanics and that this is to serve as a basis for a design doc.  That means you want not just unit mechanics, but basically all the mechanics in the game, right?  Everything you'd have to code.  That's broad and I don't see anyone else adding that kind of stuff.
I did. There is a category, near the end of the doc, for mechanism. Even resources are being added.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: tadrinth September 02, 2016, 09:20:49 AM
Er, sorry Pumpkin, I take that back.  I was seeing a loooot more text written about unit types than about the basic game mechanics, when the basic mechanics are really important.  Thanks for adding stuff!
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth September 02, 2016, 11:16:14 AM
Er, sorry Pumpkin, I take that back.  I was seeing a loooot more text written about unit types than about the basic game mechanics, when the basic mechanics are really important.  Thanks for adding stuff!

The list had to start with something ;)
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Tridus September 02, 2016, 12:10:59 PM
Some things appear in more than one place (eg: Spire Civilian Leaders), so it took me a bit to figure out where to put thoughts on them. I was able to add a bunch of stuff, though.
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Cinth September 02, 2016, 06:31:51 PM
Some things appear in more than one place (eg: Spire Civilian Leaders)

Unintended consequence of having a lot of people write on a single doc at the same time :)
: Re: Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics - V2!
: Draco18s September 02, 2016, 06:42:05 PM
Unintended consequence of having a lot of people write on a single gigantic doc at the same time :)

FTFY ;)

FTFY ~ Cinth