Author Topic: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.  (Read 26888 times)

Offline treyra

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2017, 09:55:44 pm »
One thing that I think no one has mentioned yet, the fancier icons above would be great for big things like starships, guardians, structures, etc at full zoom out. That would make them really easy to pick out at a glance, something that's critical to evaluating a situation and determining what needs to die (or what you need to pull out fast). It also is visually pleasing, and I know I at least enjoy watching my bigger ships go to work.

As for the fleet ships, will the ships still be rendered at the minimum level of detail? Because if that's the case, then that alone lets you get a sense of where your ships are, and then I'm inclined to agree with some of the above that summary icons for the each type of ship as a whole in the fleet would be most useful and functional. Basically it would be like having the sidebar information in the midst of your combat. You could select all of the mkII fighters in the area and have the peel of to get the enemy bombers, and at the same time if you want or need more individual control, you are going to need a control group, as finding those ships in combat will be difficult at best.

To be sure information would be lost in that approach, but you probably still wouldn't see that one fighter off on its own with the missile frigates. And if the icons only summarized ships within some radius, you would see separate groups fairly easily. Finally, if might be a worthwhile option to have this versus every ship has a icon be some sort of setting/hotkey toggle that can be done at will and as needed.

Offline treyra

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2017, 10:04:03 pm »
Another potential benefit of summary icons would be having ships of the same type with different statuses/actions be represented by different summary icons. That way even if you're main fleet and defense fleet are sitting on each other, you would be able to tell at a glance which of those are set to FRD. Shielding in that scheme might be a bit of a mess, but something that could be handled (perhaps by a shield bar indicating what percentage of that type of ship is protected by its fullness).

Also to echo others thoughts, fleet health bars don't really matter, as both the player and AI targeting algorithms by default try to kill things quickly, so it typically takes a ship 2 seconds or less to die. You only really need to know when to book it out of there with an expensive starship.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 12:07:40 am by treyra »

Offline NichG

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2017, 10:21:22 pm »
The main reaction I had moving from the AIWC icons to AIW2 alpha glowy neon ones was that the AIW2 icons sort of individually each created a lot of visual interference to process. Part of that interference was the glow from the bloom (which caused things to merge together into a bright blob, so a general loss of high frequency detail which I'd normally use to interpret rough ideas of 'there are a lot of this thing' versus 'there's one big thing'). The other was that each icon had sort of GUI elements that extended away from the icon (and thus collided with others).

These new icons obviously don't have the bloom or intrinsic blurriness problems! :)

For detailed information (shields, health, etc), what I'd tend to do would be to use color cues, weak shape cues, or leave it to the mouseover. As has been noted, if only major structures have a health bar that seems to match their relative rarity so that you won't get visual interference between lots of health bars. What you can do for health for minor objects is to gradually darken the object as it takes damage. Alternately, start with a silhouette, but blend into a version with a noise-pattern overlay to indicate general damage. I would try to find a way to fold shielding into health (a double-ended health bar, with the left being shields and the right being hull or something?).

For indicating selected/non-selected ships, what would be best IMO would be if you could instead of drawing a circle around each selected ship, either use a brightness cue as above (of course then you can't use it for damage...) or draw a single glowing outline surrounding the entire group of ships (say, a convex hull around the points, or some kind of more clever contour that hugs the outside of the point cloud). That saves you visual clashes on the inside of the cloud - you look inside of the blob to see what it is/what the condition is like, outside to see the general extent of the fleet, and those details are confined to those regions.

As far as the broader UX aspects, I think clever handling of mouseover could really save a lot of work at the icon level. For example, what if the mouse cursor has a certain radius, and when you hold it in the midst of a cloud of ships it gives you the 'local combat situation summary' - profile icons of each ship comprising the fleet along with their count and averaged health/shields status. For that popup, you could use the more detailed icons (health bars, etc), while retaining the very abstract and individually simple ones for the 3D view.

Offline CubePolyhedron

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2017, 10:31:06 pm »


As far as stances go, I'm awful at making things look nice - but it should be easy enough to tell which is "attack stance", "moving patrol stance", and "defensive stance" without me explicitly labeling anything.

(Obviously you would be able to make these look a lot more subtle / smaller, and probably not use bright primary colors)

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2017, 10:53:17 pm »
Blue's minimalism design is really strong, but CubePolyhedron's suggestion I think would work well.

Still, I like D2 from the previous set (albeit with the solid fill from row E).

Offline treyra

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2017, 12:19:30 am »
7. Shield: If a fleet is shielded, its health bar is a different color to represent the shield's health. When that bar diminishes, it is replaced by the normal health bar (in whatever color you decide that will be). Since shielded fleets don't take damage, it makes sense that the shield would "die" to expose the fleet's true health.

This isn't really true in AI war. Most ships were shielded because they were under someone else's shields (which seems to still be the case based on the ark). And quite a few weapons were shield penetrating to some extent, firing through the shields and directly damaging the ships health underneath.  So there is a bit more subtlety at work. Honestly I've found the physical size of the shield to be a decent indicator of its physical strength, as was done in classic and is currently the case in the alpha. Plus it leads to more interesting tactics as ships get exposed when the shield shrinks. That said an indication of whether the ship near the border of the shield is under it or not could be nice. (But I really think it is easy enough to see in game right now, the other issues are more pressing).

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2017, 12:37:03 am »
This is imo a really important discussion here, maybe even one of the most important discussions in the entire game development, because it sets up the primary, most directly player interfacing way that this game is showing to a player, it defines what a new player sees when first booting, it defines what WE see in each battle and each gameplay moment. And it will have huge repercussions down the line if we don't talk about sidebars, control group info, and info condensing, about blips and blip grouping here and now..... and even selection outlining is an important consideration. Do you make it a point cloud around each ship of they are spread out far, or a outline that outlines all ships kinda spliny?

Do you want Icons in your main view when a battle is happening? When exactly would such icons even make (tactical!) sense? Where on the screen do you want them if you want them?

Mhh see, my problem here is that before even thinking about game-view icons, we need some clarity on wether a real modular information and worth to have sidebar is on the table or not I guess... and how "hover-over" info works both in the side-bar and the main-view.

Yes, a sidebar draws attention away from the battle, but that is the point, a battle I can watch is a battle I don't have to watch the sidebar for, but a battle where I need to see what is happening is a battle I NEED a condensed info on my *fleet* and not on squad 51 of my bombers or teh HP of one of my capital ships, although seeing the HP of my ARK is obviously important, but only when it actually takes damage.... if it ain't damaged, then why bother me with that info?

Also I think when we have settled on sidebar with control groups in that sidebar as modular elements, the whole stance display issue becomes kinda moot. It becomes a status we set on a control group (or fleet, if that is a term you like more) and then it is set until we override it.

Anyhow.. will be interesting to see where this one goes GUI wise, AI War 1 and especially the Unity redo of that were GUI nightmares and the only reason I care, is that I really care that this game becomes a success for Arcen, so we see many more games ;) And GUI is a REALLY important thing. It may very well be the most important thing aside from pure gameplay. So yeah, don't make my walls of text as not taking your work serious Blue, I love your icons, I just don't think they could ever do what they were made to do in combat. Not when there are more than 10 of em anyway. (And that's already pushing it)

^^
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 12:42:32 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Butterland

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2017, 01:12:28 am »
Full Disclosure:  I didn't read all of the entries on this topic.

My feeling is that icons should always be optional.  I've always liked the "Rome:Total War" feeling of a Bird's Eye View of combat.  Icons, information & DPS was always something i felt should be overlayed.   I always assumed that Augustus/Napoleon had this overlay in there head, and because I'm not them I need the handicap so that was my 2017 simulation.

I was going to comment on icons earlier today (and I still might!), but it always seemed to me that the ideal scenario was all of the icons and all of the information......available by holding "N", but otherwise it's a naked simulation of what is happening....press the button to get your overlay meatbag.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 01:39:19 am by Butterland »

Offline The Tycooner

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2017, 04:27:20 am »
To be honest, I didn't read through all posts, but I really only have thoughts on health, shield and cloak.

The health bar should be different colors depending on level of health, like strategy games have been doing it for a really long time, it should also not be visible unless a unit is damaged or have a different reason to tell you "HEY! I'm at full health!" (Perhaps to show it's shielded, but otherwise I'd think every health-bar visible is something that is damaged (some RTS games show health when a unit is selected, but I feel that is a bit useless if it's at full)), because clutter on the battlefield isn't good for you.

If a unit is shielded, it would be good if the 3d models themselves have a bubble, the health-bar (if visible) should have a shield-colored transparent overlay that simply denotes you need shield-piercing to hurt this unit, while also showing the health. The shielding unit would have the overlay go from 100% of the length of the health-bar when at full shield to gradually go to the left as it loses strength. It would be good if the icon also showed a shield-colored outline for clarity's sake. This does indeed mean that I want to double down on where shield is shown, so it's always visible where you got your eyes, and also to avoid confusion if a unit is right next to a shielded unit, but is not shielded, if the icon for the shielded unit is shown due to sorting for example.

When it comes to cloaking it really should just be as simple as making the unit model/icon transparent enough that it's clear it's invisible without it being hard to see.

These suggestions do fully support the option to turn off icons as well as turning on health-bar at all times or when selected, which really now, should be in the options when the game is released. Perhaps you might even include an option to turn off models for those who want to play it on a toaster? I like customization in games even on GUI, as everything isn't right for everyone, so it might be a good thing if you don't settle for one thing and keep the option to swap for another solution, at least at release.

Offline darkarchon

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2017, 05:35:44 am »
What you're looking at:



1. Stances. (Defense, Attach, Patrol.)
2. Cloak
3. Shield
4. Health
5. Mark Level.

Thoughts?

-Blue

I like this idea.

Offline rkfg

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2017, 09:02:42 am »
Wait a second, why ship icons to begin with? What is the point of ship icons?
<...>
Sidebar
Your post is of utter importance. I forgot about the sidebar and yes, THAT should be the way to select shpis and check their health. I can't stop thinking about all these useless 3D models if they would be replaced with icons 99% of time, it's such a waste, really! Instead they should always be visible at any distance and sidebar would allow for precise selection and control instead! And that grand battle feeling won't be lost this way. So the icons are fine and it's totally ok for them to be isometric, textured and whatnot IF they only appear at the sidebar. It won't get cluttered and everything should be readable just fine. The actual question is how to make the sidebar great again and even better than it was (for example, to instantly recognize how many ships were completely destroyed and how many just ran away to another planet to repairs).

Also.

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not  ;) ) the AIWC full name is AI War: Fleet Command, it has never been about one particular ship but about large fleets that should be managed efficiently. I don't see any reason not to bring that philosophy to the sequel.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2017, 11:42:31 am »
Wait a second, why ship icons to begin with? What is the point of ship icons?
<...>
Sidebar
Your post is of utter importance. I forgot about the sidebar and yes, THAT should be the way to select shpis and check their health. I can't stop thinking about all these useless 3D models if they would be replaced with icons 99% of time, it's such a waste, really! Instead they should always be visible at any distance and sidebar would allow for precise selection and control instead! And that grand battle feeling won't be lost this way. So the icons are fine and it's totally ok for them to be isometric, textured and whatnot IF they only appear at the sidebar. It won't get cluttered and everything should be readable just fine. The actual question is how to make the sidebar great again and even better than it was (for example, to instantly recognize how many ships were completely destroyed and how many just ran away to another planet to repairs).

Also.

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not  ;) ) the AIWC full name is AI War: Fleet Command, it has never been about one particular ship but about large fleets that should be managed efficiently. I don't see any reason not to bring that philosophy to the sequel.

If only I had summed it up that nicely and not wrote 2 walls of text ;)

But yeah, a well made sidebar replaces ship icons, which is why I felt the need to bring this up right now, before it is too late. I saw no mention on x4000's dev blog about this which reminds me of old AI War 1 GUI mistakes that haunted us an entire decade. If the sidebar handles status display, condensed of a fleet (control group / planet well / allies/enemies/own then in-game icons on ships are entirely unneeded aside from, obviously, a few "blips" that denote team color in far zoom.

As for historic data, this is a huge priority for me, if we have a sidebar (say, in Sins of a Solar Empire) then I want to see how many ships my control group has vs how many ships I once had in it. (assuming combat happened)... this isn't even so much a tactical thing, I just want to see how many ships I lost in a battle and if you ever played AI War 1 you know what a nightmare it is to manage a large blob, suddenly you notice that all your bombers are space-dust because that 1 last super fortress is taking zero damage and your fleet numbers are dwindling faster than before (oh and also, the AI focused down your bombers)  and that is obviously bad in every way ;)

Btw, even if this were a moba with 5 heroes, I would never want icons in the actual playing field. So I am odd like that ;)
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Offline Otagan

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2017, 11:44:28 am »
I was planning to write up a giant wall of text about my thoughts on the icons today, but it looks like eRe4s3r already beat me to it and basically said most of what I wanted to.  I did intend to put some examples of other games that have dealt with icons that came to mind earlier this week, so that'll go below with a bit of added rambling.

Assuming icons are a given, Blue's more recent, minimalist icons are definitely on the right track for a game of AI War's scale.  I think it'll have to be accepted that you can't manage to have individual icons for every single ship type in the game that are meaningful without introducing some combination of a) a significant frustration factor for new players and b) sensory overload for everybody else.  Making the distinction between what information needs to be communicated in an icon on the map itself and what can be relegated to an informational pop-up or other GUI element is critical.

I still consider Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance to be the benchmark for meaningful iconography in the face of huge numbers of units.  While this doesn't translate 1:1 to a game like AI War, there are still lessons that can be applied.



For each non-experimental unit, there is a small icon situated above it.  The shape of the outline, the insignias contained within the outlines, the level of the unit indicated by the small vertical bars underneath each icon, as well as the health and (where applicable) energy bars tell me the general disposition of my force at a glance.  The icons do not communicate minor stat differences between the various tier 2 assault tanks or tier 1 assault bots, as that information is relegated to tooltips, but an experienced eye can tell in about 2-3 seconds that this army is geared almost entirely toward a land battle (with tanks, bots and artillery) and has virtually no anti-air cover.

The game also does not specify these same icons for the huge experimental units, because each of those is sufficiently powerful and visually large and unique that an icon would be effectively meaningless.  They instead get health/energy bars as applicable (in this case, just health as none of these units have shields).

A key difference here, though, is that while both games are played on 2D planes, AI War allows for and encourages more camera rotation in a full three dimensions, both because it's in space (who doesn't want to rotate a camera in space) and because ships like the Ark have a vertically-oriented design that is inherently less appealing from a top-down perspective.  Furthermore, the current AI War icons hover a significant distance above the units they represent, rather than being overlaid directly on top of them like in SupCom, which leaves open the issue of icon overlap yet again.  Shrinking the icons down and/or implementing a spacing requirement on ships (so 30 squadrons don't stack on top of one another) would potentially help, though the spacing requirement would probably introduce gameplay changes that aren't wanted and isn't really a serious suggestion.

Another game I have a ready screenshot example of is Wargame Red Dragon, which has significant numbers of units in close proximity to one another with large icons displayed over the top of each unit.



The options menu allows for significant customization of these icons.  The setup I was using at the time shows the NATO icon for the unit (indicating if it is infantry, anti-air, artillery, etc), the number of units in the group (always 1-4), the name of the unit, a binocular icon if needed to indicate if the unit has any recon optics, a number in parentheses indicating how many soldiers are in the group, a vertical column with a yellow bar showing the unit's supply capacity if it has any, and then optional flashing icons on the right to indicate if the unit is low on fuel or ammunition.

As you can see, while the icons are individually very informative, things get nigh-unreadable just above the center of the image.  Even I can only make out a fraction of what's actually there with 200 hours of time in-game.  Even though the game allows you to merge icons (condensing that indecipherable mess into a single horizontal line of NATO icons), you lose all of the other information, leaving you uncertain of whether your cluster of six separate tanks is entirely out of ammunition, or your blob of infantry is composed of a stack of single troops instead of squads of 10.  Similar issues could arise in AI War now that, for example, fighter squadrons exist, especially if discrete fighter survival (i.e. 2/10 vs 7/10) is a meaningful gameplay element in its final form.

And on the subject of sidebars, they could be awesome, especially if it were coupled with some kind of vastly simplified icon system (if only to have a basic symbol/highlight to tell the player that there are ships there).  That sounds to be more like a Sins of a Solar Empire GUI style (which was just posted about as I was uploading the images for my own rambling wall of text), which even comes with small overlays for fighter squadrons rather than icons floating above them when zoomed out.  Both the base Sins game and the recent Star Wars Supremacy mod have some UI examples I'll leave below to cap this off.  There are all kinds of ideas already out there, and maybe there is something to be gained from borrowing a few of these where appropriate rather than trying to completely reinvent the wheel.  Just some food for thought.





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Offline mooncows

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2017, 12:15:02 pm »
Personally I love the new icons. And I think as long as people are able to turn on or off different HUD elements for the ships then there can't be too much information. If I want lots of info ill keep it on, and if someone else wants simplistic they can turn it all of except the ship icon. More options is never a bad thing, as long as there is a choice.
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Offline rkfg

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Re: Developer feedback requested: Ship Icons.
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2017, 01:13:48 pm »
As for historic data, this is a huge priority for me, if we have a sidebar (say, in Sins of a Solar Empire) then I want to see how many ships my control group has vs how many ships I once had in it. (assuming combat happened)...
To add to this, people would usually care more about their own forces than about enemy and allies, thus it should be easy to collapse allies and enemies on that sidebar to some shortened representation. Maybe in "power/unit numbers" form, including losses and absent units, maybe even with derivative data like "losing N power and M units per second, enemy is losing Q power/R units per second, we (or enemy) are going to be eliminated in P seconds" to estimate the enemy power and get away from the battle early. And if the player wants, they can click on some "+" icon that expands that info into the full view with all units and buildings visible.

In AIWC you always have everything on the sideboard and if colors of the sides are close it becomes confusing.