11 days to go ... Let's Fund This!!!

[Dominus Arbitrationis]

Based on the latest kickstarter update, I guess it's over. It seems like the plan is to talk about the next one there instead of here? That's kind of annoying, kickstarter comments aren't well structured for a discussion.

We can definitely discuss anything here, but as of right now most people just happen to be asking stuff in the Kickstarter comments, so we answer there.

[CaptainTaz]

I originally was gunna only do $20, but I decided hug it, I love the AI war music, and went for a $50 with the remainder of my birthday cash.

Being a jobless leech on my family, that's about as much as I can do....

I really wish I could donate more to AI war Q_Q

[iob]

You should probably get some streamers on twitch or youtube live to stream AI war 1 or 2 when it's available. Damn, if I had the time, even I would do it. I guess lots of ppl would watch Ai War 1

[Pepisolo]

I originally was gunna only do $20, but I decided hug it, I love the AI war music, and went for a $50 with the remainder of my birthday cash.

Being a jobless leech on my family, that's about as much as I can do....

I really wish I could donate more to AI war Q_Q

That's incredibly generous of you, thanks!

You should probably get some streamers on twitch or youtube live to stream AI war 1 or 2 when it's available. Damn, if I had the time, even I would do it. I guess lots of ppl would watch Ai War 1

I had a bit of a look into who the big AI War streamers are a few days ago, but for a game as successful as AI War, it really doesn't have much of a presence on Youtube. Twitch, too, it seems. The biggest tuber I could find who is an AI War fan was Quill18. I believe that Scott Manley and Total Biscuit are also fans, but they have all been contacted, I think (although I don't know for sure). Erik has contacted a LOT of tubers, but so far there's been very little interest shown, unfortunately.

[Tridus]

Back when AI War was big, streaming games wasn't as big as it is now. Today, it's not a game that looks very good on Twitch. As someone else said, it hasn't aged terribly well.

[Pepisolo]

Back when AI War was big, streaming games wasn't as big as it is now. Today, it's not a game that looks very good on Twitch. As someone else said, it hasn't aged terribly well.

Yeah, I guess for streaming it makes more sense that it doesn't have much presence there. I'm a bit surprised that it doesn't have more of a presence on just regular Youtube videos, though. The AI War videos with the highest amount of views are mostly the ones on Chris' Youtube channel. Aside from those, there isn't that much else, very few videos with significant view counts, at least.

[eRe4s3r]

AI War 1 has a few notable technical issues since the Unity engine shift that make it a terrible choice for streaming and recording, especially the font size and the way the game looks above 1080p (which is to say, you can't read a damn thing). The game is entirely unplayable at 4k for example.... and god forbid you have a resolution slightly above 1080p and record for youtube ;p

Also the game was "big" 2010, maybe 2011, this was the window for AI War 2 development and it was missed. If you look at game releases after AI War 1 you will notice lots of games (And many expansions) not AI War 2 being made. After Tidalis and Valley, work on AI War 2 really ought to have started in some way, so that for the KS, in 2012 where KS was huge, they would have had a proper game prototype to show. But as they say, that was history and it turned out different. Especially everything after Valley was just riding on a high into oblivion.

Also it needs to be said, but 80k is actually a really good result, especially without prototype done, and what x4000 decided in the last update is the only correct path left. Make AI War 2 prototype with reduced funding. Polish it up to be amazing, and THEN you can expand again.

Or alternatively, finish up that 4x ^^ So much money went into that and it will be worthless if you sit around and wait. 4X genre is shifting constantly and if you wait too long your game will become anachronistic to the genre. (It already is graphically)

It makes me really sad that x4000 and keith seemed to have dropped that 4x for good now. It was the only game I was interested in for a long time. A more complex and involved civilization on alien planets is exactly what I want. And bonus points if that is not a travesty like Civ Beyond Earth..

Ehm, anyway ;P

If I am being totally honest, on my "want" scale

Arcen 4x
Mass Effect 4
That RPG from Witcher devs
Various KS things I am still waiting on finishing.. can you say Star Citizen and assorted?
Divinity Original Sin 2 **
Battlefield 1 **
...
..
.
Arcen AI War 2

** already playing those

Currently I just have no.. dunno how to call it... "drive" to play AI War. No idea if I am just a vast minority here or something, but AI War 1 is there and it won't go away, but what isn't there, what I can not play right now but what is lacking in my gamer life right now, that is what is on my want list.  If AI War 2 looks like in the first screenshots I'd also not be particularly interested in playing it to be honest, I find it too.. .. not.. doom and gloom and grimdark enough. (Makes me really sad the backstory for AI War was never properly written into a novella format with allusions towards 40k)

[Misery]

Hm, aye, SBR would probably do pretty well if released (IF it could actually get attention, which seems nigh-impossible recently), considering that people had so much interest in it.  Though I personally really don't, which is a first for me when it comes to Arcen's stuff.   Gotten completely disillusioned with the 4X genre as a whole at this point.   Cant remember the last time I WASNT bored to sleep by those.  Includes Civ, the game that might well be the cause for all the dull in the genre.  Just... feh.  Granted I might take an interest if SBR turned out super-different from normal 4X games, but that seems very hard to manage.

But plenty do want it, so it'd make sense to do.   Though from what I understand, they just couldn't get a satisfactory bit of gameplay going whatsoever.  Others might not agree with me maybe, but I think stopping the project was a good decision. 


AI War 2 though I'd dive right into.  It's bloody difficult to find good strategy games these days.  I've found a couple other than the first AI War recently... the two games by Knuckle Cracker, and Infested Planet... but something tells me those are my last non-Arcen strategy game buys for a very long time.  Nobody else is making anything I care about (in any genre, come to think of it) and everyone just copies freaking Civ over and over.  Sigh... that's a whole other rant though, that bloody genre.  A really long, unpleasant rant.

I've forgotten where I was going with any of this.  Or if I was going anywhere at all.  Yay for caffeine and it's ability to totally destroy my focus.

[eRe4s3r]

Yeah the 4x genre as a whole is really .. bleh, Civ 6 for example is just a tiny variation and not the great throw of innovation they promised (and AI is still lackluster.......) , although it certainly still has addictive potential, and apparently enough people still buy it. Then we Endless Space 2 where for a moment I thought they had grown a brain and stopped using game design by committee tools like g2g.. heavens know how that turns out, but from the EA release so far (Only seen it streamed) I would say "badly" ;p

Thing is if the 4x genre ever does "grow up" then game design for that genre will be affected and expectations shift, at which point a held off 4x release might really do nothing but cause some 20 or so steam reviews....

In the end it all goes back to the video of the KS... I have no idea how AI War 2 would even play, so I have no expectations and no hype for it so I am a bit worried that a toned down development would end up not making AI War 2, but rather some hybrid mix of ideas that don't result in a real sequel feeling.. but as I said, I could be totally wrong :/

I just had high hopes for that 4x game.. and I read why it was stopped, but to me not finding a rewarding core gameplay loop is just an empty excuse, open up Moo 4 (no seriously, do that) and look in awe with how little core gameplay they get away with. Reward even? Zero....

But maybe that is really the core issue with 4x games. To make a reward loop, you need to have systems in place that make rewards worth to be attained. Worth to play the game for. Be that "story driven" or "character driven" or "immersion" or "loot" ;p

Ps.: Or do it like Nobunaga's Ambition and make it extremely deep if the player wants, or casual. Can't even put into words what addictive quality it has when you can pick any character and start as retainer where you just build your local lands up to supply demands for your Daimyo.. and where you can, over the 4 steps and through earning honor (by fighting battles, fulfilling demands, marrying, political intrigue etc.) you can raise up to be the head of the clan. But where, if you want, you can ignore all that and just fight battles with your Daimyo, or even just build up political alliances and defect to other clans where you are better liked... there are lot of ways to play that game ;P

My point is fun gameplay isn't something you invent, it's something you have to have a vision for from the get go. And the graphics of SBR (or whatever the name was) aren't going to get better. And I feel like we have passed the "retro" phase and now everyone wants immersion ;p

[Tridus]

Yeah the 4x genre as a whole is really .. bleh, Civ 6 for example is just a tiny variation and not the great throw of innovation they promised (and AI is still lackluster.......) , although it certainly still has addictive potential, and apparently enough people still buy it. Then we Endless Space 2 where for a moment I thought they had grown a brain and stopped using game design by committee tools like g2g.. heavens know how that turns out, but from the EA release so far (Only seen it streamed) I would say "badly" ;p

And there's the risk of letting people stream early access games. ES2 is very clearly not close to being done, there's all kinds of things that need iterating on. And G2G is only used for largely trivial stuff like picking traits for the player created faction. It's not like they designed the planetary development model based on it.

AI War 1 has a few notable technical issues since the Unity engine shift that make it a terrible choice for streaming and recording, especially the font size and the way the game looks above 1080p (which is to say, you can't read a damn thing). The game is entirely unplayable at 4k for example.... and god forbid you have a resolution slightly above 1080p and record for youtube ;p

Oh god, yeah. I tried running AI War on my 4k monitor. It's rough, to put it kindly.

Also the game was "big" 2010, maybe 2011, this was the window for AI War 2 development and it was missed. If you look at game releases after AI War 1 you will notice lots of games (And many expansions) not AI War 2 being made. After Tidalis and Valley, work on AI War 2 really ought to have started in some way, so that for the KS, in 2012 where KS was huge, they would have had a proper game prototype to show. But as they say, that was history and it turned out different. Especially everything after Valley was just riding on a high into oblivion.

Agreed. Certainly after TLF, which did pretty well and had people's attention was also an opportunity to do it. Reading into what's happened since, though, it seems clear there was internal reluctance towards doing AI War 2. Coming off SBR, Starward Rogue, and then the Raptor thing, the thought is always back of mind that they were forced into it from a bad position, rather than doing it from a position of strength. I mean, the money spent on SBR could have made the proposed AI War 2 in it's entirety. It's unfortunate how it all worked out.

[eRe4s3r]

Yeah I am not judging ES 2 before it is properly released, I was just throwing that out because it was the most recent example of a bit of a "meh" launch on EA, the game is not ready to be shown to any paying public imo. Though with that they might easily manage a successful KS and who knows how it turns out on release... thing though is they definitely offloaded their development to g2g again, and whether it remains only minor decision things is yet to be seen... already from the first impression I remembered my fears that g2g always leads to the wrong focus and fudged voting results.

Either way I come about as so negative and that is not my intent (We Germans just like to say it like we see it, with no bad intention)...
http://store.steampowered.com/app/354480/ seems like it still is regarded as potentially possible thing to have. Hope dies last ;p Or to be exact, SBR is more real to me than AI War 2 at this point. ;p So I have high hopes, even though we hear nothing. In a sense that makes me more hyped about SBR than I am about AI War 2 ;P

[Cyborg]

I don't understand this waxing poetic about SBR. Note that the following are opinions.

SBR was terrible, it's true that it had no reward loop, but that wasn't the only problem. Optimization of tile placement did not have enough strategic depth, and in fact only seemed to go into punishment mode repeatedly. The land did not feel alive (although, adding the worm later was a positive step forward), which if you remember one of the original things about this title was that the planet was supposed to respond to you. The AI did not feel smart or varied, the combat was annoying and shallow, diplomacy was barely there (don't even think about TLF level), etc. It was bad and unfinished, and in the end, Chris and company were being pulled left and right about everything with forum posts pointing to all the problems on a daily basis.

I don't know what game you think this would have been, but as someone who has played it repeatedly, I promise you this game was broken, and you would have had another release raptor scenario.

Is it even worth breaking down what went wrong with SBR? We could be here for weeks hashing that out, pointing out the obvious, and generally throwing salt on an old wound. Frankly, if we are going to have that discussion, we should take it to PM or something because it's just going to hurt people's feelings. That being said, my cheerleader comments are definitely referring to that era and forwards. Maybe even Valley 2 forwards.

I don't think we should criticize AI War for 4K incompatibility. It's old.

Criticizing AI War 2 graphics, I have some concerns with the bright outlining and neon lights everywhere rather than the original gritty look, also. But I don't think they can pull off 3-D gritty. That's not their artistic strong suit and hasn't been on any of the titles. It's just not going to happen. Certainly, toning down the Las Vegas lights would be a good start, but there is going to be some shading.

AI War 2 should have come out earlier. I've read so many comments related to Chris's reaction and relationship with the original. I mean, it says something that Keith is the lead programmer on that. This is the million-dollar baby that brings home the bacon and has for a long time, and yet, rather than keep that going and experimenting in between release cycles, Chris went off on this multiyear experiment with a different genre nearly every time, complete experimentation. A lot of those games felt like they alienated the core Arcen audience, though. That's great, except, there needs to be that financial security to do all the playtime experiments, and sometimes that means doing what the people want.

And make no mistake about it eraser, the people want AI war, to the tune of what, $90,000 kickstarter? This forum hasn't been so alive in years. We have had such a great response and a positive excitement around here, in between all the desperate forum posting. AI War 2 will bring home another solid hit, something that can be expanded on and bring in funding to keep the doors open, pay people a fair wage, and allow more experimentation. Maybe even that 4x, although we can see how hard it is to make one. Watching the SBR sausage get made was incredibly educational for me, I learned a lot of things, and I hope that it's obvious that 4x is an extremely complicated genre to get right.

[Sounds]

I don't understand this waxing poetic about SBR. Note that the following are opinions.

SBR was terrible, it's true that it had no reward loop, but that wasn't the only problem. Optimization of tile placement did not have enough strategic depth, and in fact only seemed to go into punishment mode repeatedly. The land did not feel alive (although, adding the worm later was a positive step forward), which if you remember one of the original things about this title was that the planet was supposed to respond to you. The AI did not feel smart or varied, the combat was annoying and shallow, diplomacy was barely there (don't even think about TLF level), etc. It was bad and unfinished, and in the end, Chris and company were being pulled left and right about everything with forum posts pointing to all the problems on a daily basis.

I don't know what game you think this would have been, but as someone who has played it repeatedly, I promise you this game was broken, and you would have had another release raptor scenario.

...

I totally understand where you're coming from. SBR just didn't cut it.

Whilst I loved the concept, that's a lot different from making it a reality.

As I mentioned on another thread; as a redshirt I never found the fun bit. I kept off the SBR forums until I had finished several passes to avoid bias. When I did finally return to the forums, people were having fun with what was there - that really threw me. At the time I put it down to there were more people with a better grasp of where it was all going. So I kept most of my feedback to the interface issues and its design flaws, on the assumption they were better placed to give feedback. Hindsight tells me that was not the case.

It is unfortunate that SBR as a project wasn't closed earlier at the prototyping stage. As of right now I struggle to see a way to find that fun bit in SBR, which is in sharp contrast to AI War 2. Hence leveraging AIWC as the foundation to work and extend from is a safe bet in the 'fun' stakes. Here's hoping it gets realised soon.

[Cinth]

Nothing relevant to add but I have fun playing SBR in it's last form (and a couple iterations previous to that). 

[Misery]

I don't understand this waxing poetic about SBR. Note that the following are opinions.

SBR was terrible, it's true that it had no reward loop, but that wasn't the only problem. Optimization of tile placement did not have enough strategic depth, and in fact only seemed to go into punishment mode repeatedly. The land did not feel alive (although, adding the worm later was a positive step forward), which if you remember one of the original things about this title was that the planet was supposed to respond to you. The AI did not feel smart or varied, the combat was annoying and shallow, diplomacy was barely there (don't even think about TLF level), etc. It was bad and unfinished, and in the end, Chris and company were being pulled left and right about everything with forum posts pointing to all the problems on a daily basis.

I don't know what game you think this would have been, but as someone who has played it repeatedly, I promise you this game was broken, and you would have had another release raptor scenario.

Is it even worth breaking down what went wrong with SBR? We could be here for weeks hashing that out, pointing out the obvious, and generally throwing salt on an old wound. Frankly, if we are going to have that discussion, we should take it to PM or something because it's just going to hurt people's feelings. That being said, my cheerleader comments are definitely referring to that era and forwards. Maybe even Valley 2 forwards.

I don't think we should criticize AI War for 4K incompatibility. It's old.

Criticizing AI War 2 graphics, I have some concerns with the bright outlining and neon lights everywhere rather than the original gritty look, also. But I don't think they can pull off 3-D gritty. That's not their artistic strong suit and hasn't been on any of the titles. It's just not going to happen. Certainly, toning down the Las Vegas lights would be a good start, but there is going to be some shading.

AI War 2 should have come out earlier. I've read so many comments related to Chris's reaction and relationship with the original. I mean, it says something that Keith is the lead programmer on that. This is the million-dollar baby that brings home the bacon and has for a long time, and yet, rather than keep that going and experimenting in between release cycles, Chris went off on this multiyear experiment with a different genre nearly every time, complete experimentation. A lot of those games felt like they alienated the core Arcen audience, though. That's great, except, there needs to be that financial security to do all the playtime experiments, and sometimes that means doing what the people want.

And make no mistake about it eraser, the people want AI war, to the tune of what, $90,000 kickstarter? This forum hasn't been so alive in years. We have had such a great response and a positive excitement around here, in between all the desperate forum posting. AI War 2 will bring home another solid hit, something that can be expanded on and bring in funding to keep the doors open, pay people a fair wage, and allow more experimentation. Maybe even that 4x, although we can see how hard it is to make one. Watching the SBR sausage get made was incredibly educational for me, I learned a lot of things, and I hope that it's obvious that 4x is an extremely complicated genre to get right.

Aye, I can definitely agree that SBR was just... busted.  It really just didn't work.  I mean, I'd get interested, maybe, in a proper Arcen take on the 4x genre.  Just... maybe not THAT specific take on the genre.

Though, it has made me wonder if maybe the genre itself is so flawed that not even Arcen can manage a truly unique entry in it.  I mean, AI War pretty much IS the closest they've come to a 4X, and it's bloody fantastic.  But when they tried to go all the way into 4X, everything went horribly wrong, over and over, in a way that we'd not seen happen before.  I mean, really, it was ridiculous.  Normally the devs manage to find ways around... pretty much anything.  Even doing stuff like changing TLF's combat system TWICE.  That sort of thing is difficult to do, but they did it.

But SBR?  Nope.  They still just couldn't do it.   So that, plus the fact that I honestly cant think of even ONE truly interesting-looking 4X game that wouldn't have all of Civ's dull issues... tells me that the genre itself is just outright problematic.  As interesting as an Arcen 4X might be, well... I dunno.  It might be one of those "it just isn't happening" sorts of things. 

As I mentioned on another thread; as a redshirt I never found the fun bit. I kept off the SBR forums until I had finished several passes to avoid bias. When I did finally return to the forums, people were having fun with what was there - that really threw me. At the time I put it down to there were more people with a better grasp of where it was all going. So I kept most of my feedback to the interface issues and its design flaws, on the assumption they were better placed to give feedback. Hindsight tells me that was not the case.

I think Chris once said that he "couldn't find the fun" in it either.  Like, they just couldn't hit anything near the right method of mechanics for the game for the fun to really start to show.  It just wasn't working.

A shame, really...