11 days to go ... Let's Fund This!!!

[Pepisolo]

"I told you so" is a different sentiment, although I certainly did call SBR on its problems at the time.

And you have gone to great lengths to make everyone aware of that fact. What sentiments are behind that, only you know.

No, what I'm saying is different. I'm saying that the "inner circle" that finds itself constantly getting pre-redshirt copies and paid monies has consistently egged Chris on even when something is terrible. It's been admitted that cheerleading occurred, are you trying to determine whether or not I think you are partly to blame?

I already asked you pretty specific questions about this, trying to coax out exactly what it is you mean, which you ducked. As to your more generic question, the answer is no, since I already know the answer to that. "Cheerleading", or being overly polite exists on every forum. Most people naturally try to be nice about things. However, you seem to be directing a vastly exaggerated degree of blame for Arcen's current situation towards this part of the community.

I'm not trying to point fingers and blame people because I want anyone to feel bad. I'm saying that the conflict of interest that people have in maintaining their relationship to where the money comes from (some of the volunteers are less volunteer than others) and to some extent social relationships makes you moderators (collectively) reluctant to the task of being honest, and I have seen this behavior, and I'm calling that out as being part of a community problem. I'm pointing it out because I want it to stop, and I want people to feel that they can be honest when something doesn't work.

Except that you're not really calling it out. You're making vague allusions to it which you are also not justifying. In one of the other threads, I personally tackled one of your accusations head on, even citing one such case where another mod came out agreeing with you that Chris had made a bad decision, and you bowed out of the discussion. You won't go into specifics, but you will continue to insidiously float this idea that the mods are doing a disservice to Chris, and have been doing so for a long time -- despite the fact that most of us were only made mods after SR was released, and that was mainly just to eradicate spambots.

That's really all it is. I'm not laying the "fall of Arcen" at your feet. And, Arcen isn't gone, it's just changing shape. So just move forward and think to yourself, are we being honest? Can we give constructive criticism as a group? I have a natural recalcitrant disposition that rejects social grouping, and I know that's not normal. But sometimes, that personality flaw can actually be a strength.

If you're referring to the mods, then yes, I believe that we are being honest and we can and do give constructive criticism as a group. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I'm just being honest. As for the forum as a whole? Who knows. You've posed the question, quite visibly, so people will have to answer that question for themselves.

It's *uniquely* the moderators who are not getting paid on a given project that are *most* able to give the warning signals when something isn't going right. I can try, I certainly did on both SBR and Raptor, but I'm more of a pariah on the outside. I can't do what you moderators can and that's deliver the news in the morning as it is.

*Sometimes* we are in a position where our opinion is given more weight than others, but that varies. It's not because we are moderators. I've done a lot of work on Starward Rogue, so yeah, if I say something about the direction of that then Chris will pay more attention. If I come out saying things about AI War 2, though, Chris is not necessarily going to take my words over that of a veteran player just because I'm a mod. He would be a fool to do so. Chris is the sort of person who will generally take in all feedback from all people and consider it appropriately. Could we have all bombarded Chris with emails, saying "for the love of god, Chris, don't do Raptor!". Sure. I know I wouldn't have been acting honestly if I'd did that, though. I know that you want to hear that really we all thought Raptor was a diabolically bad idea, and we were all just being "cheerleaders" in not voicing that, but I just don't think that was the reality of the situation. For myself, I know it wasn't, but I can't speak for the others, of course.

This a complicated mix of psychology and sociology. How this all works is way more than just unity engines and YouTube videos. You all play a role, and I'm just asking you to think what that is and how it relates to what's going on here. And if you don't believe any of that, reread this thread, Valley 2, SBR, Raptor, etc.

So, let's now consider that asked, ok? But I also ask you to accept any answers that are derived from what you asked us to think about.

My motivation is a long-lived Arcen. Sure, I want the success and profit of its employees and Chris. I would be happy if they all struck it rich like Notch and sold out for millions. But after AI War 2, yeah?

I mostly agree, but I don't care if they strike it rich with AI War 2, or Raptor, or Reverse AI War, or whatever.

[ptarth]

People care,
We are sad that Arcen & others are suffering,
We are angry that Arcen & others are suffering,
We are angry that we can't do much about it,
We try to find the words, but our rage and sadness is the only thing that comes through,
pretend this rhymes.

[Cyborg]

Instigating comments

 
The truth is uncomfortable, isn't it?

If you have a direct question, by all means please ask it. I don't avoid or duck questions. I am one of the most direct guys on this forum. I think I've been fairly polite about it.

I think that most all of the relevant folks here owned up to the fact that they got budgeted, were selling a product, were in on insider information because they were developing a product, and other related conflicts of interest.

I'm not asking that we "outsiders" get more access to information. Rather, I'm saying that even if you are being paid, even if you are in on the development process, and so on, you have a greater voice than the rest of us and a greater obligation to say when the ship is about to run aground.

I don't even know why I have to restate this. I don't think I said anything controversial here. Some people have a greater voice than others, most of them happen to be moderators.

[chemical_art]

I do find it outstanding that even if AIW2 received its full budget, it would still be less then the money that was dropped into SBR

[Tridus]

I do find it outstanding that even if AIW2 received its full budget, it would still be less then the money that was dropped into SBR

Imagine what could have been?

[Pepisolo]

Instigating comments

 
The truth is uncomfortable, isn't it?

If you have a direct question, by all means please ask it. I don't avoid or duck questions. I am one of the most direct guys on this forum. I think I've been fairly polite about it.

I think that most all of the relevant folks here owned up to the fact that they got budgeted, were selling a product, were in on insider information because they were developing a product, and other related conflicts of interest.

I'm not asking that we "outsiders" get more access to information. Rather, I'm saying that even if you are being paid, even if you are in on the development process, and so on, you have a greater voice than the rest of us and a greater obligation to say when the ship is about to run aground.

I don't even know why I have to restate this. I don't think I said anything controversial here. Some people have a greater voice than others, most of them happen to be moderators.

Alright, I think we've all said enough on this now. This derailment of a thread that was meant to be raising money for the Kickstarter can't continue. You've got your point out there that you believe that the forum and moderators are guilty of cheerleading behaviour, to the detriment of Chris and Arcen. You've prompted us to re-examine whether we all are being honest and constructive when giving feedback rather than being overly tactful or nice about certain things. Fair enough. Now that the message is out there, please also now consider whether you are being fair when you insinuate that a person or mod is displaying this cheerleader-like behaviour simply because they disagree with you, because in most cases that person is simply being honest.

[Cinth]

The truth is uncomfortable, isn't it?

If you have a direct question, by all means please ask it. I don't avoid or duck questions. I am one of the most direct guys on this forum. I think I've been fairly polite about it.

I think that most all of the relevant folks here owned up to the fact that they got budgeted, were selling a product, were in on insider information because they were developing a product, and other related conflicts of interest.

I'm not asking that we "outsiders" get more access to information. Rather, I'm saying that even if you are being paid, even if you are in on the development process, and so on, you have a greater voice than the rest of us and a greater obligation to say when the ship is about to run aground.

I don't even know why I have to restate this. I don't think I said anything controversial here. Some people have a greater voice than others, most of them happen to be moderators.

As a tester, I've always given an honest first impression (which is the one thing we are asked for) and not all of them have been glowing reviews.  After that I set out to do the testing part because I enjoy it.  It's fun.

Everything I've done with SR has been as a volunteer. 
I was made a mod so I could squash bugs. 
I had a small part in RR that wasn't part of the dev process (details in a previous post).  I don't think I ever said much about the game here publicly.
I have a larger role in AIW 2 that is dependent on the KS funding.  If it doesn't, then I pitch in with the relaunch and do something else because I enjoyed being part of the process.  Making games is fun too!  What I was doing in this forum was directly related to what I was being asked to do (outside of the rather public quarrel with kasnavada that got me publicly reprimanded ).

Other than that, most of what I say about a game that should be taken seriously, is said in private.  Good, bad and indifferent.

What I don't have is some magic hotline to Chris (ok, I do) that automatically overrides anything said on the forums by regulars.  From what I understand, input is considered form all sources and acted on however Chris decides.

[keith.lamothe]

A few things:

1) Hash things out however you like, within reason, but don't let it cause bitterness between you. Hard knocks are good, but it's bad if you find yourself replaying the conversation in your head thinking of ways you could have landed more hits. Bitterness is deadly, to communities and individuals.

2) When you feel the urge to defend yourself, or defend someone else, ask yourself: why? There are often good reasons, but there are often very bad ones too. We don't generally grow by defending ourselves, but rather by acknowledging our faults and blunders and seeing what we can do to fix and avoid them. Criticism from others can be a gold mine for that, if you accept that they will get some things wrong and that your task is not to find their errors but to find where they are right.


Anyway, back to making the new design doc

[kasnavada]

Thing is that claiming that having bestowed mod powers, exchanged mails on a regular basis, and worked on a project doesn't affect in any way the judgement of someone kinds of contradict all of what I know about social interactions, and about decades of social studies. Claiming otherwise seriously baffles me.

While Arcen maintains the lead, those closest, with the most impact on them (however big it is), also have a responsability. That, in the last pages, you've denied having any part of this, for reasons I mostly won't ever understand, is litterally beyond my comprehension. So, just for argument's sake. I'll switch sides. I'll assume I'm crying wolf, that you're right, and that your reviews and remarks are fair, and good, and not in any way pulling punches, not in any way much kinder than should be, and that's you're not cheerleading.

Don't you agree that something's not right here ? If the remarks were all legit, there would have been next to no difference between the market's reaction, and your answers. And, the remarks made on the forum by other participants. Yet, there's a huge gap, to say the least. That it happens once, no issue. It happens. But, it's been what, 4 failures in a row ? SBR, SR, Raptor, the KS.

So, just to help Arcen can move on toward other projects and actually succeed this time, do you guys attribute those failures to what ? And, you're amounting your part in it to... what ? And, what do you think you could have done better ? Note, I don't care much about the answer. Just that you think on it for real instead of dismissing it outright.

[Cyborg]

I think we should just move on. The point was made, I think everybody got it.

[Misery]

Seriously, I just don't understand the issue here.   I know cheerleading happens.  But I don't think it's coming from where it's assumed to.  Or at least, I personally cannot see it.

At least in my case, I just speak my mind.  I do that.  Always.  Aint good at social interaction; if I've never mentioned it, I'm autistic.  It causes... trouble.  But it also means that I tend to be brutally honest.   If I'm saying that I really like a particular game... it's not because Arcen made it, or whatever.  It's because I really like the blasted game.  It's just me being honest.

And really, I've had my reservations in the past.  SBR, I actually was helping with a small aspect of it (the event database, and yes, I got paid a small amount to help with this) but I was also one of the ones railing against the game a bit, because for me, the gameplay just... wasn't working out.  With TLF, well... remember what it's combat ORIGINALLY was?  That bizarre RTS.  I did a long... very long... rant about that, because to me it was NOT working.  I still remember Chris's reaction to that, because the reaction was to completely halt production of it for like a day or so.  The first transformation of the combat system came soon after, so that was good.   Even Raptor... I keep saying I think the game had potential, but that's from a GAMEPLAY aspect.  I remember when the game was announced, I thought it was... iffy.  It seemed a strange thing to come from Arcen.  Seemed risky.  I could swear I said so (probably more than once).  Once I got involved in the project, I didn't actually talk about it all that much (because there wasn't much to actually show).

And SR is SR.  I've a very direct role to the point of being able to direct things a lot or even veto stuff, so with THAT one, I try not to talk about it too much unless asked.  It's the only Arcen game I've never given a real review of (on Steam).  Cant do that.  Er... at least I THINK it's the only one I've never reviewed.  I can at least say it's the one I WONT review.


I mean, really, I just don't get it overall, with this situation.  All I know is WHY I do what I do, from my point of view; anything beyond that is very difficult to grasp.

And yes, I know, we should stop talking about this so much, but I'm saying stuff here because I haaaaaaaate not understanding things like this.  I find it... frustrating. 

[Pepisolo]

I certainly understand what you mean, Misery. I've already given my opinion on this whole "cheerleading" drama. It's something out of nothing for me. But we've all said our piece by now, and I've cleared the air with Cyborg so that there's no bitterness moving forward. Let's all just move on.

[Cyborg]

Misery, I really am trying to let this go, but you are tempting me. Against my better judgment, here is an example of the cheerleading:

This is from the release raptor forum.

"I really want to give a huge thanks to everyone who has been such a big help on this game: Blue, Keith, Cinth, Craig, Pablo, and Misery in particular.  "

-Chris

"Right now though, with the raptor smashing stuff seemingly at random, I have all I need to know.  All those chairs and tables are clearly connected to the robots.  I have to stop them."

-Misery

Now, what is the point here? I don't want an apology, I don't want you to admit that you did anything wrong. I made that comment about cheerleading so that you would get the point that you (collectively) have a different relationship with Chris than the rest of us do.

We have had repeated stinkers with the same cast of characters cheerleading bad games. Why? Is it because they're getting paid? Is it because they're "friends?" Maybe both, I don't know.

But I tell you this, if it's about the money, making bad games will dry up the money tree quickly. If it's about the friendship, it's not being a good friend to put lipstick on a pig. And from my perspective, what I want is just good games. Games I want to pay for and give money for. That's the extent of my relationship with Arcen.

I'm really trying to stop posting about this. Do you want to take this to PM? Anybody? Can we do a group PM so that people don't get pissed off?

[Pepisolo]

Right, that's enough now guys. If we want to take this over to PMs or Discord then we can do that, but I think we've all said our piece by now. If anybody wants to continue the conversation with me personally, feel free to PM me.

Edit: for the sake of politeness, if anybody wants to make any last "let's agree to disagree" posts just to close this out peacefully then fine. But we need to be moving on.

[Misery]

Right, that's enough now guys. If we want to take this over to PMs or Discord then we can do that, but I think we've all said our piece by now. If anybody wants to continue the conversation with me personally, feel free to PM me.

Nah, don't worry about it.   

Frankly I still have no bloody clue what's up here, which is still irritating, but to be fair, I *often* have no bloody clue what's up, which I suppose is part of WHY it's irritating.  Social stuff:  I just don't get it.  This situation is definitely one of those things.  Never stops me from asking the questions of course, but frankly I don't understand the blasted answers much of the time.  Feh.   So in the end, not a big deal.

To a degree, also, a lot of what happened in this topic is likely, well, venting.  Which I don't think is a bad thing, so all is well as far as I'm concerned.
 

I'll say one thing though:  The topic sure is dead.  If you'd like to lock it up, you can.  Up to you on that one.  But one way or another, it's original purpose is gone.  Though, after everything that's occurred with the KS, it's original purpose is irrelevant anyway.