Mind helping out Chris a bit? Lists of features and their basics.

[Misery]

I for one am now more confused than I was originally.

[Cinth]

I for one am now more confused than I was originally.

You would be.   

[Cinth]

Not sure how exactly am I supposed to add notes there.

It's open to anyone making edits.  I'm working on the actual unit listing.  Take a look at what Zharmad did with the Zenith section.  Just add what you want (seems like everyone else is going to).

[kasnavada]

Not sure how exactly am I supposed to add notes there.

It's open to anyone making edits.  I'm working on the actual unit listing.  Take a look at what Zharmad did with the Zenith section.  Just add what you want (seems like everyone else is going to).

I agree with pumpkin.

It's going to be an horrible 50 pages long unreadable mess, and a complete waste of time.


Utter waste of time.


Let's go a bit further, that kind of mindless excitement at following whatever crazy idea is proposed is IMO what got arcen into the SBR failure.
Sometimes you've got to say "it's stupid".

Listing mechanics would be smarrt because the game is supposed to be moddable. every can do what he wants later.

[Cinth]

Not sure how exactly am I supposed to add notes there.

It's open to anyone making edits.  I'm working on the actual unit listing.  Take a look at what Zharmad did with the Zenith section.  Just add what you want (seems like everyone else is going to).

I agree with pumpkin.

It's going to be an horrible 50 pages long unreadable mess, and a complete waste of time.


Utter waste of time.


Let's go a bit further, that kind of mindless excitement at following whatever crazy idea is proposed is IMO what got arcen into the SBR failure.
Sometimes you've got to say "it's stupid".

Listing mechanics would be smarrt because the game is supposed to be moddable. every can do what he wants later.

And the one thing that no one seems to understand is, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK OF THE LIST.  It is for internal use.  It's going to be one of many docs used to shape the way AIW2 looks.

What the game is and isn't going to be in the end does not matter right now.  It's a wispy collection of ideas and thoughts that have to be put to paper (which is what is going on now). 

[kasnavada]

If no one understands it, there is some kind of reason for it. If you work to do something, its goal has to be reasonably clear.

You're making argument in favor of my point, Cinth.

[Cinth]

If no one understands it, there is some kind of reason for it. If you work to do something, its goal has to be reasonably clear.

You're making argument in favor of my point, Cinth.

No, I'm seeing a lot of complaints about how the list looks or about its contents.  None of that should matter to us.  What matters is how Chris plans on using it.

[kasnavada]

Well, that's certainly an issue if does not matter to you. It should. It does to me. I really want AI War 2 to be a success, and I genuinely don't see how listing whatever is in AI War in a 50+ pages doc would matter. If there are complaints about how it looks and what's in it, then take in those complaints and even try to understand and improve them, instead of bashing others.

My main point is, if people do not understand WHY something is done, then it's going to be done badly. That's common sense really.

And you're missing a lot of feedback doing it that way.

I personally see a point in listing mechanics that make AI war great.
I see a point in listing the ambiance, the backstory, the customer service that makes Arcen forum a good place.
I see a point in listing "wishlists" about what could make AI war better.

I don't see the point in a list of units, and even more since it's going to be moddable. I'm not alone in this, probably. Now, do you want feedback from most people ? Or just some that do... without understanding the goal behind it ?

[Kahuna]

I'd like to do is get a comprehensive list of ships and plots and mechanics and so on, with brief descriptions of what they do, and then have folks also weigh in on their opinions on some of these things, potentially in other threads.  Maybe have a "things we don't like" thread and a "things we like" thread.

[...]
Utter waste of time.
[...]
Sometimes you've got to say "it's stupid".

Listing mechanics would be smarrt because the game is supposed to be moddable. every can do what he wants later.

There could be different threads/documents for ships and mechanics. Also what's going to prevent people from modding mechanics?

without understanding the goal behind it ?

some subjective commentary on what the role or value of the ship is

Some of these things have been rebalanced so substantially since I last saw them that actually my own interpretation of them is very out of date.  So I'm trying to counteract that and catch up fast.

It's going to be an horrible 50 pages long unreadable mess, and a complete waste of time.

It is true there's probably going to be something like 50 pages of text. If it keeps the structure it has now it's not going to be unreadable though. It's certainly going to take some time to read and soak up but if Chris thinks it's worth the time then maybe it is for him.

[Misery]

Okay, look.  Let's calm down here....

One way or another, this is what Chris asked for, right?  It's not like someone just came up with the idea to fling a huge pile of pages at the devs.   And to be honest, for a complicated game like this, ending up with a document for reference that is as huge as this might be does make sense, particularly when it's specifically meant to be a reference to player feedback.  Chances are, the devs are going to be dealing with other documents that are WAY longer than this one would be.  Design docs can be like that. 

But aside from that, why not just wait for him, and see what he has to say about this?  Rather than just arguing back and forth, which isn't doing anything. 

Let's just wait for him to perhaps give some input on just how he wants to have this laid out.  His original post WAS a little vague about this.   

But at least let's not clog this up with unnecessary arguing...

[kasnavada]

There could be different threads/documents for ships and mechanics. Also what's going to prevent people from modding mechanics?

That's actually a very good point - (kind of a wishlist thing...) if it could be planned. It would be great to be able to mod waves / AI behaviour / events. Like if the core game could enable the whole of the golem sub-plots & minor faction to be directly moddable, or any other minor faction-behaviour. I think I read that Chris is not keen on minor factions but still.

@Misery: ok.

[Cinth]

Okay, look.  Let's calm down here....

I'm just frustrated.  We were asked a rather simple task and everyone is making it out to be some mystery here.  On top of that everyone seems to want to derail what's actually going into the list with their own version of what the list should be.  It's such a simple concept.

Basically what I'd like to do is get a comprehensive list of ships and plots and mechanics and so on, with brief descriptions of what they do, and then have folks also weigh in on their opinions on some of these things, potentially in other threads.  Maybe have a "things we don't like" thread and a "things we like" thread.

And then he gave his reasoning. 

I hate asking so much of folks, but I figure that many heads/hands are certainly better than one.  Also I'm really trying to get a design document together as quickly as possible so that it can be discussed in depth, and every bit helps.  I know the wiki has a huge amount of info on there obviously, but where the holes are is not always obvious, and it's easy to not realize that some ship was missed when there are so many ships!

All the cool things you might want in 2 need and the stuff we want to carry over need to be written down so we'll remember to go over it.

I don't need things like balance stats or anything, but some subjective commentary on what the role or value of the ship is -- if in your opinion it has any at all -- is also valued.  Some of these things have been rebalanced so substantially since I last saw them that actually my own interpretation of them is very out of date.  So I'm trying to counteract that and catch up fast

He doesn't need Marks or Variants or stats or anything like that.   He just wants to know what you think because he hasn't been involved in the development of AI War in about 5 years (Ancient Shadows on was all Keith).

I'm just trying to get people on point with what's been asked.  I'm just a bit frustrated (and whomever it was arguing with me on the list... urg).

 

[Pumpkin]

I don't understand what Chris really wanted, like several people out there. So I just went to the page, added mechanisms and cast some order in the lists of ships and units. I hope Chris will give us more details when he's back.

[Kahuna]

All the cool things you might want in 2 [...] to be written down

Well at the moment everything is (being) written down. Maybe that's the problem? (If there actually is a problem).

Perhaps we need a thread/document where people would list only those cool things they want in 2. And another thread/document to those that need fixing and/or need to be removed. And so on. Break this whole thing into smaller pieces. Perhaps even leave some out completely.

EDIT:
Something that was said before:

It is also important to recognize that AIW2 is only going to make so much income for its base game, and so it is important that the game development time follows through. The logic of “It is guaranteed success” is simply not true, or at least relative. For this reason not everything can be incorporated. The more content is added in a game like this the QA increases exponentially. It is imperative to not try to include everything, it is not only ok but a matter of necessity to leave some things for later. The goal is for a new player to finish a game so some of the most difficult things can be held off for a time.  Adding an extra few months to make the base skeleton “just so” and to add lots of extra content should be avoided, that way there is less pressure to have a huge number of players at the start.

9. Very much agreed on not including everything and the kitchen sink in the base game.

[Cinth]

All the cool things you might want in 2 [...] to be written down

Well at the moment everything is (being) written down. Maybe that's the problem? (If there actually is a problem).

Perhaps we need a thread/document where people would list only those cool things they want in 2. And another thread/document to those that need fixing and/or need to be removed. And so on. Break this whole thing into smaller pieces. Perhaps even leave some out completely.

EDIT:
Something that was said before:

It is also important to recognize that AIW2 is only going to make so much income for its base game, and so it is important that the game development time follows through. The logic of “It is guaranteed success” is simply not true, or at least relative. For this reason not everything can be incorporated. The more content is added in a game like this the QA increases exponentially. It is imperative to not try to include everything, it is not only ok but a matter of necessity to leave some things for later. The goal is for a new player to finish a game so some of the most difficult things can be held off for a time.  Adding an extra few months to make the base skeleton “just so” and to add lots of extra content should be avoided, that way there is less pressure to have a huge number of players at the start.

9. Very much agreed on not including everything and the kitchen sink in the base game.

All things in due time sounds like it would be an appropriate thing to say right now.

There isn't anything stopping someone form creating new threads here on the forum.  Right now we were asked for something specific and that will likely generate the discussion going forward.  How are we to know what not to bring in from the base game if the simple stuff isn't handled first?