Arcen Games

Games => AI War II - Gameplay Ideas => AI War II => AI War II - Resolved Ideas => Topic started by: Cyborg on August 27, 2016, 05:25:59 PM

Title: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Cyborg on August 27, 2016, 05:25:59 PM
Post your wish list here!

Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: x4000 on August 27, 2016, 08:24:50 PM
This is freaking fabulous as a topic -- thank you for starting it. I really like these ideas, too. I really want to keep the rewards in the area of the game itself if possible, to keep fulfillment time costs down and make it all put back into the universe itself.

One thing that I want to do is have human and AI factions that have more personality, because previously everything was more distant and generic. So various design things along those lines will be possible, too.

This isn't a major design shift in the game, but it ties a number of existing mechanics together (with the ability to mod or customize completely, of course). Basically it should make for more of a feeling of place and purpose, and bring minor factions out more so that they are more interesting than the original game could do.

Minor factions were not a part of the original game design, so they were always really thing on your foot horned in. I don't like that. It prevented us from doing a whole lot of interesting things with them that we can do now. We learned a lot in SBR.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Aklyon on August 28, 2016, 05:12:03 PM
'thing on your foot horned in'?
That took me longer than I'd like to realize what you meant there, Chris :P

Does that mean we aren't going to have (at this point) nearly-literally everything that is not a Plot as a minor faction this time?
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: x4000 on August 28, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Oops. :)

The data structure for what goes where is something that still has to be figured out. Keith has done a lot of concrete work already, but I'll be starting on a design document tomorrow most likely. Since we know the game so well, getting things well organized upfront is a good idea.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: chemical_art on August 28, 2016, 05:41:49 PM
1. Submit your voice to give a AI response (subject to QA approval)
2. Offer a ship idea (That will be refined to fit balance needs)
3. Submit a minor / sub plot
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 06:09:08 PM
'thing on your foot horned in'?
That took me longer than I'd like to realize what you meant there, Chris :P

Does that mean we aren't going to have (at this point) nearly-literally everything that is not a Plot as a minor faction this time?

That would be a good idea for starter. SBR and raptor thingy, and basically most of what he released since the last federation showed us all that Arcen underevaluates by a lot the time he needs to finish stuff.

I think the "base" kickstarter should have basically the barebone expansion-less AI war:
- moddable starting human-only factions & ships
- moddable turrets
- AI

Then stretch goals for "major" expansions:
- neinzuls (player faction, AI, "minor AI")
- spire (player faction, AI, "minor AI")
- (...)
- alternate game mode (1).
- alternate game mode (2).

I think it's already quite a bit of a wishlist given the amount of "functions" that AI War has by default.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Aklyon on August 28, 2016, 06:16:22 PM
No-expansions AI War is actually quite small if you look at whats left in the lobby to choose from when you've played with most of the expansions before. Even the vanilla AI (as in the one that is especially non-special, not the original set of AI choices) didn't show up until around LotS, I think.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 06:29:08 PM
I haven't see the code, so can't really tell. However, I worked 10 years in development (sadly, not video games, just "standard" banking, xml & pdf editing solfwares), and that experience points me to "base AI war" has most mechanics of the game in place, and therefore most of the code.

Expansions mainly have "fluff" that uses base mechanics in strange ways and adds a few other mechanics.

Also, if the game is moddable enough, players can make a lot of the extra content themselves, and there is therefore no need to code it in the very first version =).
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Captain Jack on August 28, 2016, 06:29:26 PM
As someone who's followed a bunch of Kickstarters: having backers NAME things is good, having backers DESIGN things is asking for trouble. On top of the normal concerns of implementation, testing and feedback, there's a chance the submitter will disagree with how you've interpreted their suggestion or that it might not thematically fit. Take ideas for new content from the usual places, or ask Kahuna/Cyborg/Cinth. They'll have ideas.

Wonderful, horrible ideas.  >D

As the person who's all but certain to end up editing any journal entries submitted.... sigh Go for it. It's a good idea and takes very little effort for you to implement.

Also:  the very first tier should be $5 and get the donor's name in the credit scrawl.

EDIT: Oh, certain options above $50-$60 should include "AI War Classic".

Also, printable decals, Arcen themed wallpaper... Like that unused one from SBR.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Aklyon on August 28, 2016, 06:37:00 PM
I haven't see the code, so can't really tell. However, I worked 10 years in development (sadly, not video games, just "standard" banking, xml & pdf editing solfwares), and that experience points me to "base AI war" has most mechanics of the game in place, and therefore most of the code.

Expansions mainly have "fluff" that uses base mechanics in strange ways and adds a few other mechanics.

Also, if the game is moddable enough, players can make a lot of the extra content themselves, and there is therefore no need to code it in the very first version =).
Well I'd assume it has most of the code, yes. I was just saying from the perspective of having looked at what happened if you turned off all the expansions in a lobby and being surprised at how much stuff was actually from some expansion or another.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Pumpkin on August 29, 2016, 02:52:29 AM
I'm not sure about what we are discussing here. I see two things: what the backers get as a "reward" for backing and what the studio will do ("goals") with that money.

I am personally interested in neither. I already know how many I'll give to Arcen and all I want back is the game, no "rewards" (however I understand the need for rewards in a KS campaign). And for the goals (what does the community want), they have been listed by Chris in the RR's refund announcement:

an AI War sequel with a better UI, better performance, better networking, better graphics, moddability, and so on.
I want nothing more. For me, "and so on" could be a point.

Also:
having backers DESIGN things is asking for trouble.
if the game is moddable enough, players can make a lot of the extra content themselves
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: ElOhTeeBee on August 29, 2016, 06:17:39 AM
The one thing I really have to add is that I feel that backers should not get exclusive game content. Having them involved in assorted creation processes is fine, an early bird discount is fine, but if you say that - for example - Backers get an exclusive map or ship type, then you're saying that everyone that does NOT preorder the game a year or more in advance will never have access to that map or ship type.

With that said, an interesting idea from a kickstarter for a procedurally-generated Zelda-like was that backers would be able to 'spread' their exclusive content to non-backers. Maybe there's something interesting to do there. (I'd give you the game's name, but I honestly don't remember it; I just recall that the kickstarter was successful, but the game was never finished and presumably never will be. TB did a video on it at some game expo, though; maybe digging through his video archives will find it.)
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: ptarth on August 29, 2016, 03:02:30 PM
My major thought is price point. Programming good games is hard work. Titles should be appropriately priced. Having kickstarter tiers start out at $5 is creating a problem where having people think games are only worth $5. The most consistent enduring small indie developers I can think of are Cliffski at Positech and Toadie at Bay12. Toadie doesn't count, because Dwarf Fortress is an exception to everything (like all runaway industry hits). Looking at Cliffski's work, $25 for a solid title is what he thinks is reasonable, and his games are not that deep. They are entertaining, but not deep. I think Chris is under-valuing Arcen's work quite frequently.  I think $25 for a copy is probably too low. $50 per title is probably a little high, but that's because I'm super cheap. Looking at similar sorts of games we have: Endless Space did alpha access for $32 and pushed out an expansion really soon after wards for another $10-15. And Endless Space is pretty shallow, but very pretty. Distant Worlds goes for $60. Master of Orion doesn't really count. Star Citizen ... not sure if this has a real price tag other than $+.  I can imagine that things would have been different had The Last Federation been $25+ instead of $20. AI Wars itself is weird on pricing due to its developing history. You might argue that this will drop immediate sales, and sure, I think you are right. But the profit is in the tails of the distribution, so will it change long term profit in a positive or negative way? I think it would be a positive impact in the long run, due to increased income leading to increased support and development periods. Which then leads to more sales, and so forth.

Then again, I'm an imaginary person on the internet.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: tadrinth on August 29, 2016, 05:00:45 PM
Also:  the very first tier should be $5 and get the donor's name in the credit scrawl.

Ptarth: I don't think he meant for that tier to include the game.  It's literally just paying to get your name in the credits and nothing else.

Backers could be granted access to 'what content should I implement next' polls, possibly with higher tiers getting more weight in the polls.  A slippery slope, but if there's a particular unit or minor faction you really like, maybe people would be willing to pay extra to see it available upon release.

Or, you can sell vetos!  +$20 to guarantee your least favor unit (*cough wrath lances cough*) never returns!

On pricing: I've paid, I think, $16 for AI War; $4 for the bundle when i first got it, $4 for Destroyer of Worlds, and two $4 bundles to try to get friends into it.  I've paid $25 for Endless Space total (including the expac).  I've played 50% more AI War than Endless Space; I have almost nothing left to do in Endless Space that interests me, and I've barely scratched the surface of AI War.  I think you guys are releasing expansions faster than I can finish campaigns based on those expansions (I love this game but FARK am I slow at it), and those campaigns are only getting maybe half the content from those expacs. I have a loooot of AI War left to play.   AI War is a ludicrously, insanely cheap game for the hours of fun I've gotten out of it. 

I've seen tons of games sell the soundtrack separately or as a premium bundle. 

Wallpapers, or other downloable goodies?

Challenge Scenarios! Okay, so I don't know if this makes any sense really, but there's the various Lobby setup scripts, right?  What if, rather than just having your name in the credits, you had your name in the lobby as a setup script? I dunno what a Kahuna scenario would look like, but I'd guess it involves Raid Engines and Black Hole Machines and pain.  I think this would be a great way to honor some of the great AARs that have been posted on the forums, as well; thinking of the epic RockyBst cage match and Ride the Lightning.  Take the essential elements and condense them into a script.  This might also help people explore the different ways people play AI War, which is always good.  It should avoid some of the usual problems with backer-contributed content, as well, since they'll be building out of existing components rather than having to try to implement their vision for a unit, or whatever.   

Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on August 29, 2016, 06:47:14 PM
I haven't see the code, so can't really tell. However, I worked 10 years in development (sadly, not video games, just "standard" banking, xml & pdf editing solfwares), and that experience points me to "base AI war" has most mechanics of the game in place, and therefore most of the code.

Having seen the layout of some of Arcen's other titles, I can tell you that "the base game" includes all the code.  The expansions are litterally png images, sounds, and other runtime data as well as a doodad that says "expansion installed" to the code.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Cyborg on August 29, 2016, 07:05:23 PM
I think writing your own taunt (subject to QA) is a great idea, chemical_art. Along the same lines, submit your own graphic art for a ship or something like that.

Although I wonder, would it be awesome if people do that anyways? Crowdsourcing assets (again, subject to approval).
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: x4000 on August 29, 2016, 08:41:33 PM
Some general notes:

1. I'm already getting overwhelmed with the feedback here, haha. ;)

2. Talking about how much I do or do not over or under evaluate work for games is kind of irrelevant when we're talking about something more known.  We've never gone over time budget on an expansion to my recollection.  This is much more than an expansion, but still it's familiar territory.  The big unknowns that caused delays in our other games are mostly not here.

3. I think that a discussion of what mechanics should be carried forward and what should not is a discussion for another thread.  However, "all the code is in the base game" is very misleading in the sense that, from a gameplay standpoint, a huge majority of mechanics were invented for expansions.  They are rolled into one DLL, but they never were part of the base game.  Some of those have a lot of complexity AND are rather disliked, and will be cut for sure.  Others are now "fundamental" to the game.

4. Regarding backer tiers and rewards, one expensive one that I was thinking of, and that Pablo agreed to, is this: (maybe $5k) Pablo working with someone who backs at that level in a very direct fashion to do some sort of track that is at their request for the game.  The vast majority of that pledge going to Pablo's work on it.

5. I'm not sure I really want a ton of different AI voices that are really just a big hodgepodge as part of the main game.  There are a few voice actors that I want to work with in order to come up with a couple of distinct AI personalities.

6. In general I'm going to be working on a bunch bunch bunch of documents over the coming weeks, and will be asking for lots of vetting on this stuff.  You'll also be able to see the kickstarter page itself before it launches (well before) so that folks can comment on that, too.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Cinth on August 29, 2016, 09:28:01 PM
How did I not know this thread existed?

Take ideas for new content from the usual places, or ask Kahuna/Cyborg/Cinth. They'll have ideas.

I'm actually pretty horrible at coming up with original stuff.  I can however, take someone's idea and twist it into something rather nightmarish  >D
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Misery on August 29, 2016, 09:39:43 PM
How did I not know this thread existed?

Take ideas for new content from the usual places, or ask Kahuna/Cyborg/Cinth. They'll have ideas.

I'm actually pretty horrible at coming up with original stuff.  I can however, take someone's idea and twist it into something rather nightmarish  >D

Now I'm tempted to give you ideas here and see what happens.   Possibly the apocalypse is the result, who knows?



Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas in this thread.  I also like the "name a planet after you" one in particular.  Normally I don't care about that sort of thing, but in this case my name might actually be fitting for this, considering what the AI sometimes does with those planets it has.


Also I'd gladly pay for "earliest possible access" sort of thing, yessir. 
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Cinth on August 29, 2016, 09:43:40 PM
Now I'm tempted to give you ideas here and see what happens.   Possibly the apocalypse is the result, who knows?

This isn't the place for that.  Those red button experiments can be conducted elsewhere. ;)
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on August 29, 2016, 10:53:53 PM
However, "all the code is in the base game" is very misleading in the sense that, from a gameplay standpoint, a huge majority of mechanics were invented for expansions.  They are rolled into one DLL, but they never were part of the base game.  Some of those have a lot of complexity AND are rather disliked, and will be cut for sure.  Others are now "fundamental" to the game.

I meant that if you buy the base game today, the expansion mechanics are already on your hard drive (single DLL).  Not that it was "day 1 DCL'd" in that it was segmented off during development and labeled "this is DLC for a future date."
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Kahuna on August 30, 2016, 12:43:23 AM
Or, you can sell vetos!  +$20 to guarantee your least favor unit (*cough wrath lances cough*) never returns!
Zenith Siege Engines. Please! have mercy on us!

AI War is a ludicrously, insanely cheap game for the hours of fun I've gotten out of it.
Looking at my purchase history on Steam I bought AI War Alien Bundle on Nov 6, 2011 (1760 days ago) for 24,99€. So far I've played it for 2596 hours. So that's about 1 hour 28 minutes 30 seconds every day for 4 years 9 months and 25 days. So the cost would be 0,009626... €/h.

Yeah I think I've got my money's worth.


Challenge Scenarios! Okay, so I don't know if this makes any sense really, but there's the various Lobby setup scripts, right?
I think ready made challenge scenarios would be a good idea. Perhaps it could be one of the stretch goals. (If the devs wanna do a kickstarter campaign)

The script things atm are too tedious. You have to actually go to the file and write the script. There could be a save as a challenge/script/whatever button in the game lobby. So the player would select the settings he wants and then press the button and it would save all the selected settings into a challenge/script/whatever. Then the player could upload it on the forums and other people could download it and copy paste the file into the challenge/script/whatever folder in the game directory and volá.

Perhaps this could be combined with some kind of a sandbox mode or a "map editor" (Galaxy Editor?) where the player could give/take planets/ships to/from the player/the AI and then save that as a scenario with the selected settings. (Well that was a mouthful)

I think writing your own taunt (subject to QA) is a great idea, chemical_art.
"They must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel when they hired the programmers to program us."
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tolc on August 30, 2016, 03:31:55 PM
Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas in this thread.  I also like the "name a planet after you" one in particular.  Normally I don't care about that sort of thing, but in this case my name might actually be fitting for this, considering what the AI sometimes does with those planets it has.

An AI Homeworld called Misery...yeah, that would be fitting  :P

So far I've played it for 2596 hours. So that's about 1 hour 28 minutes 30 seconds every day for 4 years 9 months and 25 days.

Holy...  :o

Maybe give the AI your name at a certain backer level, e.g. AI diff 10 called "Kahuna v1.1" or something like that...(not as an actual descriptor, that should still be AI diff 10 and its type, but rather as a fluff addition to differentiate the AIs ingame.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Lavenders2 on August 31, 2016, 03:32:39 AM
My 2 cents on tiers (not so much pricing):

- A small tier should be there for those who just want to support the game being made without actually getting it. These people might get it later if they can confirm it is good, but they don't get burned if they feel it isn't
- Definitely a tier with just the game and nothing else
- Lots of kickstarters use digital artbooks/osts or whatever in a "deluxe edition" of the game. From memory AI war actually has all the ost files there for free, but something like concept art or even design documents for game mechanics are interesting to some, if you don't want to go the paid ost route.
- Naming a planet/ship/structure stuff works, great example is Prison Architect, where users could not only name prisoners, but provide their bio. Providing AI taunts sounds awesome as well.
- Someone suggested getting the classic game (with expansions?) along with the new one in a certain tier. I personally think this idea is great.
- That 5k tier (working with Pablo on a track) interests me as someone with a musical background, but that really is expensive! I'm not rich though, so just my 2 cents.
- I agree that designing something like a ship is dangerous. I am immediately reminded of an instance with Planetary Annihilation where one user who backed a design tier had a very specific vision for a unit, but it wasn't clear that you could only pick from certain "chassis" and so he complained about it. I'm not certain how that went down, but from when I last saw it he still didn't have anything of his implemented because he refused to conform to the rules of the design. If a tier like this was to exist, I think it should be REALLY REALLY CLEAR what is allowed and what isn't, especially if the tier is going to be expensive
- My personal idea: I know in some cases multiple designs for a unit or mechanic or whatever is brought up and a decision between them has to be made. Why not add a tier that allows everyone who pledged for it to vote on what gets decided? (Example - There are two art designs for a bomber ship, those who backed the relevant tier can vote on which one they like). Obvious problems would arise if you never needed to make a decision like this however. I'm also not sure how comfortable people are with something like this being a paid tier.

Just my thoughts, hope it helps!
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on August 31, 2016, 11:21:03 AM
I haven't see the code, so can't really tell. However, I worked 10 years in development (sadly, not video games, just "standard" banking, xml & pdf editing solfwares), and that experience points me to "base AI war" has most mechanics of the game in place, and therefore most of the code.

Having seen the layout of some of Arcen's other titles, I can tell you that "the base game" includes all the code.  The expansions are litterally png images, sounds, and other runtime data as well as a doodad that says "expansion installed" to the code.

That'd be true, but a lot of that code wasn't there in the "true" base game. Code was added for the mechanics that are in the expansions, and such. So they're really still part of the expansion even if they're included in the base game.

That's a fairly common strategy for DLC, actually. You can package off the assets and such as the download, but you don't want to start trying to patch the executables with various combinations of DLC, so you put all that in a patch that every owner of the game gets, and the DLCs simply enable the new stuff.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: kasnavada on August 31, 2016, 12:11:08 PM
- I agree that designing something like a ship is dangerous. I am immediately reminded of an instance with Planetary Annihilation where one user who backed a design tier had a very specific vision for a unit, but it wasn't clear that you could only pick from certain "chassis" and so he complained about it. I'm not certain how that went down, but from when I last saw it he still didn't have anything of his implemented because he refused to conform to the rules of the design. If a tier like this was to exist, I think it should be REALLY REALLY CLEAR what is allowed and what isn't, especially if the tier is going to be expensive

Apart from naming planets and writing their backstories, I'm not sure what elements in AI War could be "fluff in game".
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Steelpoint on August 31, 2016, 12:38:11 PM
Maybe let certain level backers write more in-depth descriptions for certain fleet ships and starships?

One thing I noticed in Bionic Dues was how in some cases you could hold shift (I think) to get a more expanded and in-depth lore description of the item or weapon in question. Perhaps that could be a interesting reward offer, though the downside is that unless there's a certain theme then most of the descriptions are likely going to be more humorous (if there's even a negative in your opinion).

It would not interfere with the game in any way and is something you have to go out of your way to view.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on August 31, 2016, 12:42:00 PM
In regards to a potential Kickstarter itself, just how many backer rewards do you need? Lots of Kickstarters go wrong by trying to have tons of rewards, and it just makes the whole thing overly complicated to fulfill. I'd especially shy away from physical rewards. Even for digital only ones, lots of successful projects don't have 15 tiers of rewards.

If there's a plan to add new things to the game (rather than just update and improve stuff that was already in AI War), then there is probably a chance to do it. You could for example add an option to select a Leader for your human forces, that comes with traits of its own, at which point a backer tier can be "help design one of the leaders".
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Vinco on August 31, 2016, 07:59:20 PM
Among the basic options:

Game plus soundtrack (Especially with the quality of Pablo's prior work).  Probably $10ish over the base game
"Arcen complete pack" Probably $25-30ish over the base game
Lorebook (digital) - A collection of lore in the Arcenverse.  Includes some concept art, narratives about development, etc.
Become a character in the game - Remnant fleet commander, historical admiral, etc.
Game multipack - One special copy with bonuses like soundtrack, plus extra copies for multiplayer partners
Super supporter - Get all Arcen games for the next 5-10 years
"KS exclusive" alternate art - special art for the flagship, or another core ship
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Pumpkin on September 01, 2016, 01:24:18 AM
Lorebook (digital) - A collection of lore in the Arcenverse.  Includes some concept art, narratives about development, etc.
Oh! I would love this one!

Game multipack - One special copy with bonuses like soundtrack, plus extra copies for multiplayer partners
Just "extra copies for friends" sounds good, for me. And it's a neat idea. (I already know who among my friends deserve free copies of my favorite game!)

Super supporter - Get all Arcen games for the next 5-10 years
I would rather say "all previous Arcen games". While several people might already have previous games, future titles sound less appealing (IMO) and feels like shackles for Arcen. I dunno...

"KS exclusive" alternate art - special art for the flagship, or another core ship
I think it might be slightly more than one special art. However, I don't know how easy/difficult it will be to create enough of alternative art. But anyway, alt.arts sounds very interesting, KS or not. I already imagine starting a game with a friend and saying "Hey, dude, zoom on my flagship. Nice, eh? That's 'cause I kickstarted the game." 8)
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: kasnavada on September 01, 2016, 02:31:04 AM
I'm not for "discounted" copies.
After all, the goal of a kickstarted is to make money.

What I've seen other kickstarters do is "choose your rewards", if you put 90 euros, the base game is 30 euros, and there are rewards for 90 euroes, you can choose either 3 games, or the rewards for 90 euroes.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Kahuna on September 01, 2016, 03:21:17 AM
"Hey, dude, zoom on my flagship. Nice, eh? That's 'cause I kickstarted the game." 8)
Yeah maaann, kick ass! *fist bump*

Not but really the game is played zoomed out pretty much all the time so imo that would be a waste of money and time.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Pumpkin on September 01, 2016, 05:03:42 AM
"Hey, dude, zoom on my flagship. Nice, eh? That's 'cause I kickstarted the game." 8)
Yeah maaann, kick ass! *fist bump*

Not but really the game is played zoomed out pretty much all the time so imo that would be a waste of money and time.
Who are you to call my money wasted? ;D
If I want to have a golden flagship visible at max zoom and am ready to pay for it, why not?

More seriously, sure, this is cosmetic. But it's like a forum badge and stuff. The point is, beside supporting the creation of a game, to earn the right to brag about it. The point isn't the golden starship or the forum badge, it's the bragging right that would appeal people in supporting the kickstarter.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Vacuity on September 01, 2016, 09:21:38 AM
Or, you can sell vetos!  +$20 to guarantee your least favor unit (*cough wrath lances cough*) never returns!
Nooooooooooooooooooooo! :'(

I hate love (in a masochistic kind of way) wrath lances!  They've wrecked my plans so awfully a few times.  I even wrote them as the standout feature in my Steam review on the Ancient Shadows Steam store page (http://store.steampowered.com/app/40408/).

You can't get rid of them; I veto this veto!

I've never contributed to a kickstarter before, but I am sorely tempted by this.

On a more serious note, assuming I contributed, I'd much rather have my brother's name somewhere in the game than my own.  He died a few years ago, but I strongly suspect he would have loved this game and I'd much prefer to memorialise him than see my own name.  I assume this wouldn't be an issue?
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: tadrinth on September 01, 2016, 04:22:53 PM
I hate love (in a masochistic kind of way) wrath lances! 

I knew someone out there had to feel that way!  Even I will admit that they're *interesting*. Hitting them two games in a row was a bit much, especially alongside a Grav Reactor the second time. 
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: TheVampire100 on September 02, 2016, 01:15:03 PM
I really wish I could back this project and get a tier reward, but the probnlem is, Kickstarter still refuses to allow Paypal. And I don't have nor will I ever own a credit card.

I will buy the game however when it's complete.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Vinco on September 02, 2016, 10:07:21 PM
Vampire,

If you really want to back the project but are averse to credit cards, you still have options.  Prepaid gift cards are likely the best approach, though you'll be paying an initial fee.

I also find it incredibly difficult to understand why anyone would be in favor of paypal over a good rewards credit card, but perhaps I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: mrhanman on September 02, 2016, 10:11:05 PM
A lot of people, myself included, have an extreme dislike for owing money to anyone for any reason, ever.  That said, I do have a debit card for my bank account that I can use as a credit card.  Is that also not an option, Vampire?
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: NickAragua on September 02, 2016, 11:04:25 PM
#1 Focus on the game. Skip the stupid physical swag and $5000 "attend a party with the devs" crap.
#2 It's been said before, but no exclusive content. Maybe some minor cosmetic stuff.

My suggestions (may mirror previous posts):
- A "just pitched in for no reward" tier.
- A "spot in the credits but no game" tier.
- "Just the game" tier, gets you the game for slightly less than full retail price.
- "Teamwork is better" tier. Gets you 2x copies of the game at the same per-unit price as "Just the game".
- "Tom Sawyer Fence Painting" tiers:
I. Lets you in to early access so you can pay to be a QA person.
II. Lets you in before early access so you can help out with localization or data entry.
III. Lets you in before early access so you can help Arcen out with some code reviews. Just kidding, don't do that one. Then again:
IV. Lets you in after the game is released and grants you conditional access to the codebase so you can do some bug fixes while the Arcen team swims in their Scrooge McDuck vault full of e-cash.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: zharmad on September 03, 2016, 04:40:30 AM
Hmmm. Do you want discoverable lore fragments in the game?

Cynically speaking, selling spots for fan-fic entries, which players may recover as they hack into all sorts of old human databases now controlled by the AI.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on September 03, 2016, 07:39:45 AM
A lot of people, myself included, have an extreme dislike for owing money to anyone for any reason, ever.  That said, I do have a debit card for my bank account that I can use as a credit card.  Is that also not an option, Vampire?

I use a credit card all the time, and I never owe them any money. Pretty easy to pay for whatever you buy with online banking the next day.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 11:32:36 AM
You know what I'd pay for?

A compiled lore book.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: zharmad on September 03, 2016, 11:55:12 AM
I'd seriously consider a lore book myself, if it included concept arts and stuff - but yeah...
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Pumpkin on September 03, 2016, 12:28:23 PM
+1 for the lorebook here.
However I'm afraid it would cost much more to make and ship than the cash obtained for the kickstarter with it.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 12:34:18 PM
Psh, give it to me as a PDF.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Pumpkin on September 03, 2016, 12:36:25 PM
Psh, give it to me as a PDF.
Why didn't I think about that?!?
I WANT A DIGITAL LOREBOOK!!!
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 12:53:44 PM
It doesn't even have to be formulated all that nicely either.  I mean hell, even just putting all the lore messages from all the games down into a rough chronological order of the events they describe in a .txt would be pretty awesome (don't do that though).
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Cyborg on September 03, 2016, 01:07:37 PM
A lot of people, myself included, have an extreme dislike for owing money to anyone for any reason, ever.  That said, I do have a debit card for my bank account that I can use as a credit card.  Is that also not an option, Vampire?

I use a credit card all the time, and I never owe them any money. Pretty easy to pay for whatever you buy with online banking the next day.

And there are even credit cards that allow you to automatically pay, get rewards (I saved up my rewards for 10 years and completely paid for a round-trip international ticket), and build the credit that you need. Some employers do credit checks. One might argue that for common monthly expenses to be passed through a credit card that builds rewards and credit for things you have to pay for anyways, it's actually a good idea.

Having credit doesn't mean that you have some pile of debt. Having credit tells other people how good you are with money. That being said, there are some people that are clearly incapable of making the connection between paper money and money in a bank account.

There is another website that allows PayPal. I think that double fine was using it for their kickstarter.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 01:23:04 PM
Or to put it more cleanly:

If you don't spend money you don't have, you can't go into debt with a credit card.

The flaw is that some people think that a credit card literally bestows upon them new money, which they go out and spend (max out the credit card), and don't see it as a problem.

That said, I don't have an actual credit card. I have a debit card that can be used like credit (the balance is automatically debited from my account a couple days later).
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Captain Jack on September 03, 2016, 03:48:08 PM
You know what I'd pay for?

A compiled lore book.
(http://www.volkerballueder.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/too-much-work.jpg)
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: chemical_art on September 03, 2016, 03:55:40 PM

Having credit doesn't mean that you have some pile of debt. Having credit tells other people how good you are with money. That being said, there are some people that are clearly incapable of making the connection between paper money and money in a bank account.


This.

I enjoy my two free airline tickets a year using credit. I only discovered it two years ago but some work I finally am at the point I can enjoy the "free" money.

Being responsible pays off, yo.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Captain Jack on September 03, 2016, 03:58:04 PM

Having credit doesn't mean that you have some pile of debt. Having credit tells other people how good you are with money. That being said, there are some people that are clearly incapable of making the connection between paper money and money in a bank account.


This.

I enjoy my two free airline tickets a year using credit. I only discovered it two years ago but some work I finally am at the point I can enjoy the "free" money.

Being responsible pays off, yo.
Oh cool. Any card recommendations?
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: chemical_art on September 03, 2016, 04:10:30 PM

Having credit doesn't mean that you have some pile of debt. Having credit tells other people how good you are with money. That being said, there are some people that are clearly incapable of making the connection between paper money and money in a bank account.


This.

I enjoy my two free airline tickets a year using credit. I only discovered it two years ago but some work I finally am at the point I can enjoy the "free" money.

Being responsible pays off, yo.
Oh cool. Any card recommendations?

PM me if you live in the United States. If not, look up credit card offers in "home country" for starters.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on September 03, 2016, 04:19:23 PM

Having credit doesn't mean that you have some pile of debt. Having credit tells other people how good you are with money. That being said, there are some people that are clearly incapable of making the connection between paper money and money in a bank account.


This.

I enjoy my two free airline tickets a year using credit. I only discovered it two years ago but some work I finally am at the point I can enjoy the "free" money.

Being responsible pays off, yo.

Yep. :D Mine just gives cash, but I do enjoy getting a couple hundred bucks every year just for paying for stuff I'd need to buy anyway.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: zharmad on September 03, 2016, 05:16:38 PM
Great. Kickstarter wishlist discussion turns into credit card advice. ...go forum. :P
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 03, 2016, 06:09:56 PM
Yep. :D Mine just gives cash, but I do enjoy getting a couple hundred bucks every year just for paying for stuff I'd need to buy anyway.

For what it's worth, that money comes out of the pocket of the places you shop at, which is why small businesses either don't accept credit, or have a minimum.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on September 03, 2016, 06:18:02 PM
Yep. :D Mine just gives cash, but I do enjoy getting a couple hundred bucks every year just for paying for stuff I'd need to buy anyway.

For what it's worth, that money comes out of the pocket of the places you shop at, which is why small businesses either don't accept credit, or have a minimum.

Yep, I'm aware. Lots of local places don't take it for that reason, so I use my debit card there. I don't feel too bad about using it at Costco, though, since it's their card. If they really want to give me cash back on gas, I have no objection to that. :D


I know we're off topic, but since we have nothing to go on in terms of what the KS is going to look like right now, there isn't much to talk about there. I still hope they do a "help make a leader" tier, though. :)
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: chemical_art on September 03, 2016, 08:59:40 PM
I gave as a post some credit card advice, but I may give the advice as a whole on the off topic forum, but I will say this:

Unless you pay by cash or check, your local business is taking a hit. I appreciate the local sentiment. But your local business will tell you they would rather visit another time then worry if you pay by cash or credit.

Secondly, learn your credit, yo. My car insurance and my credit card give me of the three main sources of it a month, for free.

Thirdly, check your mail! If your credit is good people will ask to abuse it! Just make sure you abuse them and not  you!

Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: NickAragua on September 04, 2016, 12:10:15 AM
On topic:
I like the idea of a PDF lorebook. You know what else I like? For that lore to be included in game without having to read forty thousand forum posts. Sorry about the yelling, but it would be seriously nice to have some context for some of this stuff. I actually like the AI War fluff, but since about 90% of it is in Chris's head or in random forum posts, well...

But as far as kickstarter advice goes, I would recommend the following:

1) Pre-plan and pre-estimate your stretch goals. "We'll need to spend a man-year if we want this feature, which translates into x hundred thousand dollars". Don't reveal them right away, but have that stuff ready to go ahead of time so you're not scrambling. If you blow past those, just say "the money will be used to further improve the quality of the game, focusing on the features we have already proposed". Battletech and Shadowrun Berlin/Hong Kong are your model kickstarters here (Shadowrun Returns is what I call a "learning experience"). No, I don't work for HBS, but I'd totally want to if they weren't across the country. Arcen already has the "communication with fans" thing down.

2) Have a gameplay video ready to go if at all possible. Hack something together that looks cool. http://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Cool-Cam comes to mind. There's no amount of excitedly talking about a project that's a substitute for a cool minute long teaser.

------
Off topic credit card shpiel for those crapping on credit cards:

I've been paying off my credit card fully every month ever since I got my first one, probably about sixteen years ago as a snot-nosed college kid. It's not that hard (assuming you have a job and some self discipline), and it
a) builds your credit rating
b) puts a layer of separation between your money and thieves that a debit card does not
c) lets you avoid carrying large amounts of cash or using personal checks (euuugh)

The credit rating, you need to take out loans (including the mythical yet awesome 0% interest loan for car purchases) for larger things such as cars and houses. The latter of which my wife just would not stop yammering on about and not only is it nice not to piss away money for rent every month, but also the reduced amount of ear drum harassment is great for one's psychiatric health. Plus, you don't have to answer to some slumlord or "renters association" or whatever.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on September 06, 2016, 04:16:09 PM
Something that bears investigation - Steam keys for backers.

I want the game on Steam. If I can't get the game on Steam through KS, that will change my interest in the KS substantially, to the point that I'd probably just back at the $1 "thanks!" tier or whatever, then buy the game on Steam once it's there.

If I can, I've got my credit card ready right now.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 06, 2016, 04:32:21 PM
That shouldn't be a problem, I don't think.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Tridus on September 06, 2016, 05:44:36 PM
I don't think so either, but I also think it's worth making sure. If the copy that's given out to backers is "Arcen store/Humble/Whatever" instead, that should be clear up front.

Also, will there be an "alpha/beta" tier? I've seen some games do that, and some games not do that (because they don't want to sell that). Can go either way.
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: Draco18s on September 06, 2016, 09:53:56 PM
I don't think so either, but I also think it's worth making sure. If the copy that's given out to backers is "Arcen store/Humble/Whatever" instead, that should be clear up front.

With Backerkit, you could ask, and deliver fairly easily as I understand it
Title: Re: Kickstarter: my wish list for the different tiers
Post by: x4000 on September 07, 2016, 09:54:26 AM
Okey doke!  Time to move the discussion from here to a new thread: https://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,19060.0.html

Cinth and I think that everything from this thread has been carried over into the document of the other thread properly, but if we missed something then please let us know in the other thread.

Thank you!