Author Topic: About the Lore  (Read 1272 times)

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2016, 05:26:28 PM »
I interpret that as "the Core behind the conduit in NGC 224 is far more important and central than the two Control Centers in the Milky Way".
It is not. The backlash from the Blade's actions on the other side of the exogalactic wormhole blows up the planets on our side of it, which is why the AI shuts down. Destroying the Core in isolation DOES damage the AI, but not the same way.

And while you're here, tell me: who/what is Kyr-Sun?
In all honesty, and with apologies to Keith: Irrelevant.

As an aside: we're approaching the setting and story in two opposite ways. You're focusing on the characters and what they specifically did, ie the Great Man theory of history. I reject that. It's the societies and the forces they bring to bear that matter. Langstrom, Artain, the Exiles and the rest are accessories to how human civilization chose to automate the engines of war until said engines took the choices away from them. This would have happened without them.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 05:34:53 PM by Captain Jack »

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2016, 06:04:53 PM »
I interpret that as "the Core behind the conduit in NGC 224 is far more important and central than the two Control Centers in the Milky Way".
It is not. The backlash from the Blade's actions on the other side of the exogalactic wormhole blows up the planets on our side of it, which is why the AI shuts down. Destroying the Core in isolation DOES damage the AI, but not the same way.
Are you making that up as you go? :P
Nah, seriously, I don't fully understand that part of your explanation. My understanding was simple: "Exile cross wormhole and kill Core". But then you speak about backslash from the other side of the wormhole that destroys the AI.
"Destroying the Core in isolation DOES damage the AI, but not the same way." Is that sentence grammatically correct? I'm sure not an expert in English, but I genuinely don't understand that.

As an aside: we're approaching the setting and story in two opposite ways. You're focusing on the characters and what they specifically did, ie the Great Man theory of history. I reject that. It's the societies and the forces they bring to bear that matter. Langstrom, Artain, the Exiles and the rest are accessories to how human civilization chose to automate the engines of war until said engines took the choices away from them. This would have happened without them.
That's Asimov's vision as developed in the Foundation series. Very well, I take that.

So the AI around the Core is... But first, let's clearly define things. I call "The Core" the Spire being that was banished (alongside with its sibling). Langstrom and Artain... Well, okay, Human scientists gave to the Core their fleet control technology to use it as a tactician in the civil war. They called it AI. (So I call AI that Core empowered with Human technology.) Then that new AI tricked Artain Human scientist into removing securities that restrained it. The AI/Core then built servants, nearly eradicated mankind, escaped through the conduit and attacked the Spire Empire to get revenge.

And you are saying that this AI/Core/Exiled isn't the cause of everything?

Okay, I'll make an effort. So it's more Human technology that turned against them? But why? Because the Core/Exile tricked them into removing the securities! Ah, okay, I said I'll make an effort. So the Core, twisted by Human technology, attacked mankind... because Frankenstein. Mankind creates it's own demise. Because that's the beginning and the end of the loop: AI War 1.0 begun as "mankind will destroy itself" and must ends with "mankind destroys itself". And that is highly reproved by Asimov (and me, by the way).

No, I'm sorry. Your explanation is more complex than mine, and I dislike the philosophy behind it. You might be Arcen's Lore Voice, but I don't buy it.

The Core is behind the Conduits in NGC 224 and the two "AIs" in the Milky Way are servants. That's simple, clear and coherent with the game. Anything else would be either complex or incoherent.

I'm sorry, I'm tired and I shouldn't be writing that so late. But I have a clear and coherent vision of that and you offer me an explanation that I don't understand. I say "that I don't understand": this is my point of view, right now, minutes after midnight. Maybe tomorrow I'll understand better. Maybe if you would explain me again the ins and outs of that, I'll understand better too. I would appreciate, anyway.

Thank you for your time and your patience.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2016, 06:14:26 PM »
I came back from bed. I won't sleep if I don't say that.

As an aside: we're approaching the setting and story in two opposite ways. You're focusing on the characters and what they specifically did, ie the Great Man theory of history. I reject that. It's the societies and the forces they bring to bear that matter. Langstrom, Artain, the Exiles and the rest are accessories to how human civilization chose to automate the engines of war until said engines took the choices away from them. This would have happened without them.
This is a beautiful philosophy. I appreciate it; I truly do. But you're writing a story: you need characters and events. You need clear motivations, clear explanations of what happened, etc. That's why I (I almost said "we", but I'll be humble) That's why I loved the AIW's lore: Langstrom, Dorothy, the Exiled, Exaron the Seventh, the two AIs... They make the story. Not the History, for sure, which is made by civilizations over the course of eons. But the story. And here, it's the most important.

I remembered none of my History & Geography lessons. But I remembered so many stories.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline Tridus

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2016, 06:19:40 PM »
I came back from bed. I won't sleep if I don't say that.

As an aside: we're approaching the setting and story in two opposite ways. You're focusing on the characters and what they specifically did, ie the Great Man theory of history. I reject that. It's the societies and the forces they bring to bear that matter. Langstrom, Artain, the Exiles and the rest are accessories to how human civilization chose to automate the engines of war until said engines took the choices away from them. This would have happened without them.
This is a beautiful philosophy. I appreciate it; I truly do. But you're writing a story: you need characters and events. You need clear motivations, clear explanations of what happened, etc. That's why I (I almost said "we", but I'll be humble) That's why I loved the AIW's lore: Langstrom, Dorothy, the Exiled, Exaron the Seventh, the two AIs... They make the story. Not the History, for sure, which is made by civilizations over the course of eons. But the story. And here, it's the most important.

I remembered none of my History & Geography lessons. But I remembered so many stories.

That's a fundamental thing. People get stories about people. If you want to create interest, it's about people at the end of the day.

This isn't a history class. It's a game. If you're going to have a story at all, you should at least try to interest people with it.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2016, 04:16:35 AM »
It is not. The backlash from the Blade's actions on the other side of the exogalactic wormhole blows up the planets on our side of it, which is why the AI shuts down. Destroying the Core in isolation DOES damage the AI, but not the same way.
Are you making that up as you go? :P
Nah, seriously, I don't fully understand that part of your explanation. My understanding was simple: "Exile cross wormhole and kill Core". But then you speak about backslash from the other side of the wormhole that destroys the AI.
....Oh. I see the problem.

Did you know that both AI homeworlds are destroyed when the Exodian Blade goes through the exogalactic wormhole? The Blade self destructs on the other side, and the energy from the blast comes back through the exogalactic wormhole. That's why the AI shuts down.

That's Asimov's vision as developed in the Foundation series. Very well, I take that.
Psychohistory? It doesn't exist in the AI War universe to my knowledge. It explicitly could not going by its description in the novels, at that.

Or are you suggesting that the specific individuals involved are the reason the war started, above and beyond the societal and environmental forces? I see. The problem is that the Exile incident [redacted] the AI War. The war [redacted]. The First Exile/Core is [redacted]: a [redacted] that provides [redacted] and which has [redacted].

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THIS POST BROUGHT TO YOU BY ARCEN NDA

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And you are saying that this AI/Core/Exiled isn't the cause of everything?
Correct.

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So it's more Human technology that turned against them? But why? Because the Core/Exile tricked them into removing the securities! Ah, okay, I said I'll make an effort. So the Core, twisted by Human technology, attacked mankind... because Frankenstein. Mankind creates it's own demise. Because that's the beginning and the end of the loop: AI War 1.0 begun as "mankind will destroy itself" and must ends with "mankind destroys itself". And that is highly reproved by Asimov (and me, by the way).
In order: Yes, good question, no, no, only if you lose your Command Center, what loop, I'm not sure where you're coming from, Asimov's point is that human behavior on a macro-scale is predictable as long as it stays human behavior on a macro-scale so again I'm not sure where you're coming from.

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No, I'm sorry. Your explanation is more complex than mine, and I dislike the philosophy behind it. You might be Arcen's Lore Voice, but I don't buy it.
Please don't take this the wrong way but I've only been describing the ending to the Exodian Blade storyline and some plausible inferences from that. Actually explaining things gets me in trouble with Chris.


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I'm sorry, I'm tired and I shouldn't be writing that so late. But I have a clear and coherent vision of that and you offer me an explanation that I don't understand. I say "that I don't understand": this is my point of view, right now, minutes after midnight. Maybe tomorrow I'll understand better. Maybe if you would explain me again the ins and outs of that, I'll understand better too. I would appreciate, anyway.

Thank you for your time and your patience.
No worries at all. As a matter of fact, writing that [redacted] sentence up there finally let me nail down some stuff. Unfortunately, I can't provide the details about why some of your theories are incorrect. It's not just because I can't talk about it, but because I don't know any everything Keith had planned for future expansions. One of these days I'll sit down and pump him for that, see what I can use.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2016, 06:47:22 AM »
It is not. The backlash from the Blade's actions on the other side of the exogalactic wormhole blows up the planets on our side of it, which is why the AI shuts down. Destroying the Core in isolation DOES damage the AI, but not the same way.
Are you making that up as you go? :P
Nah, seriously, I don't fully understand that part of your explanation. My understanding was simple: "Exile cross wormhole and kill Core". But then you speak about backslash from the other side of the wormhole that destroys the AI.
....Oh. I see the problem.

Did you know that both AI homeworlds are destroyed when the Exodian Blade goes through the exogalactic wormhole? The Blade self destructs on the other side, and the energy from the blast comes back through the exogalactic wormhole. That's why the AI shuts down.
"the AI shuts down". First, who is the AI? Is it the Core twisted by Human technology? Or just the machine around the Core which keeps its personality and motivation? Second: I find "shuts down" that a bit underwhelming for being wiped out by a blast able to disintegrate (at least) two planets through wormholes. And yep, I noticed the two planets gone. But I think this is highly confusing. While we know the Blade will sacrifice itself to kill the Core (it says that before), "cross wormhole and kill the thing in NGC 224" is so much simpler than your self-destruct and backslash.

Also, my disbelief (because that discussion is causing me nothing less than the end of my suspension of disbelief) is mainly caused by the antagonism between what the story tells (there is nothing more central than the two AI Home Command Stations) and what the gameplay and the mechanisms has taught me since I know the game: there are much more behind the exogalactic wormholes. We know the AI is able to bring tremendous power from the "exogalaxy": endless streams of Dire Guardians and Hunter/Killers and Motherships. This is part of the game's motto: "the AI can crush you if it so desire"; "you are not matched for what can come from the other galaxy"; and the Fallen Spire reinforce that a lot with its "little piece of Imperial Armada" and "this super-dreadnought just cannot be built in our galaxy". What are these two "Home Command Controller" that the "thing in the other galaxy" barely defend even when they are directly menaced, even when one is destroyed?!?

You know what? I built a lovecraftian-level mythos around the Core. And I'm going to explain it to you. I built it not with the journal entries but with the whole game. The two "central" centers are central for the Milky Way, but they are nothing compared to the Core. I can imagine the Core sending a message to the players at the end of a game that made all the space telemetry scientist go mad, endlessly babbling "I saw through the wormhole. The two AIs are nothing. We were fighting two insects and we are much less." In my dreams (or nightmares?), NGC 224 was filled with battalions of Dire Guardians fighting battalions of Spire super-dreadnoughts, leaded by planet-sized flagships. A wall of Heavy Beam Cannon MkV? A thousand of Core Raid Starships? The Galactic Capitol? They are expandable assets in NGC 224.

And you're basically saying: "Nope, 2AIs = Core. You destroyed it. VoilĂ ."
I don't buy this.

I saw through the wormhole! Your vision is only illusion! Don't you see? The Core is coming! Redeem yourself! The Core is coming! Redeem yourself!
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2016, 12:15:41 PM »
Just for the sake of nitpicking.

So the Core used to be one being ans is now split between the two "AIs"?
Frankly, the "Core = 2 AIs" version raises much more incoherencies than "Core in NGC 244; 2 servants in Milky Way".
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2016, 01:46:41 PM »
First, who is the AI?
You mean what.

Is it the Core twisted by Human technology?
No.


Or just the machine around the Core which keeps its personality and motivation?
No.

Second: I find "shuts down" that a bit underwhelming for being wiped out by a blast able to disintegrate (at least) two planets through wormholes.
The ONE time I use straightforward language I get called on being insufficiently dramatic?!

Also, my disbelief ... is mainly caused by the antagonism between what the story tells (there is nothing more central than the two AI Home Command Stations) and what the gameplay and the mechanisms has taught me since I know the game: there are much more behind the exogalactic wormholes.
That you have to take up with Chris, it's been the premise of AI War since 1.0. Kill the Command Centers, the AI dies.

What are these two "Home Command Controller" that the "thing in the other galaxy" barely defend even when they are directly menaced, even when one is destroyed?!?
Apologies if I have it wrong. I think you mean, "Why are the Home Command Centers defended by a token force even when the humans prove they're are an existential threat?"

Because they still consider their other business more important.

They are expandable assets in NGC 224.
Close. They're shock troops in the Spire Galaxy.

And you're basically saying: "Nope, 2AIs = Core.
How do you mean?

So the Core used to be one being ans is now split between the two "AIs"?
An interesting idea! But no.

Offline Timerlane

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2016, 04:41:09 PM »
Second: I find "shuts down" that a bit underwhelming for being wiped out by a blast able to disintegrate (at least) two planets through wormholes.
The ONE time I use straightforward language I get called on being insufficiently dramatic?!
Frankly, it's a little weird, too; I was a little unsettled to realize here that NGC 224 was the target of the Blade.

Are we effectively(helping) Mark III(+?) Nuke NGC 224, including Richard Langstrom and the Spire home galaxy remnant, and just to kill two planets in our own galaxy?

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2016, 05:03:52 PM »
Frankly, it's a little weird, too; I was a little unsettled to realize here that NGC 224 was the target of the Blade.

Are we effectively(helping) Mark III(+?) Nuke NGC 224, including Richard Langstrom and the Spire home galaxy remnant, and just to kill two planets in our own galaxy?
That's certainly the implication. Except I suspect the planets in the human galaxy were accidental.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: About the Lore
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2016, 08:21:10 PM »
So the Core used to be one being ans is now split between the two "AIs"?
An interesting idea! But no.

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