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Games => AI War II - Gameplay Ideas => AI War II => AI War II - Ideas For Maybe Later => Topic started by: Cinth on September 14, 2016, 12:24:34 PM

Title: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 14, 2016, 12:24:34 PM
I have these guys envisioned as the Carrier based fleets and full on mobile combat platform. 

 Carrier has arrived.


How do you see the Neinzul?
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Tridus on September 14, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
A fleet of enclave ships makes the most sense. Their flagship should be a bigger carrier, of course.

You could take it to extremes like mobile space docks, so they can create their younglings nearby whatever they want to attack. Only things that would be stationary are probably things like turrets, metal generation, and supporting infrastructure.

They may also be able to avoid more AI notice because they wander around already and that wouldn't be anormal to the AI.

Lots of contrasting points to Human and especially Spire playstyles, I think.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: otoed1 on September 14, 2016, 12:59:35 PM
You could possibly make their younglings difficult to control directly (they only follow orders roughly)  and have some "Mature" ships that you control directly. Make them feel very "swarm" and at least tactically difficult to control. Although strategy should be 100% controllable as per the norm.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 14, 2016, 01:04:28 PM
To make neinzuls, I'd have ditched all permanent stuctures but one building that would be an extension of the regen chamber.
The "new" regen chamber would have to double as a drone holder of sorts, capable of unleashing hordes on whatever encroaches your territory.
Most of defenses would have to be drones, the fleet of the player the "few" mature units, and the moving enclave.

I'm not sure if it would be better to have the player control multiple flagships, each with its fleet of enclave, rather than enclaves directly.
Leaving a possibility for specialized "leader-less" enclave squads.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Aklyon on September 14, 2016, 01:39:45 PM
Carrier has arrived.
This, pretty much. Lots of carriers. Enclaves as sorta home-baseish carriers. NCCs too.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: zharmad on September 14, 2016, 01:58:07 PM
How do you see the Neinzul?
As meta-organisms with separate consciousnesses in addition to the limited consciousness of individual members. Don't think you are asking about lore and philosophy though.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 14, 2016, 02:02:16 PM
How do you see the Neinzul?
As meta-organisms with separate consciousnesses in addition to the limited consciousness of individual members. Don't think you are asking about lore and philosophy though.
It's all good!  :)

I'm more concerned about how they should play as a controlled selection, though.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Timerlane on September 14, 2016, 03:14:39 PM
Perhaps some 'capital' ships and/or structures could be fluffed as being based on the AI's Hybrid-tech(some more room for variation and perhaps explanation for longer living vessels)?

Say, some slightly-odd faction of the Neinzul saw what the AI was doing with Hybrids and decided to try some tinkering of their own.

Neinzul cyberpunk? :P
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Pumpkin on September 15, 2016, 06:24:22 AM
I often feel "Neinzul" when I (ab)use the MkI-IV ENclave Starship + Combat Carrier.

I also remember a wonderful game where I had the chance to unlock three youngling designs: I maxed them all up to MkIV, unlocked the Mobile Space Dock, let everything else as defensive fleet, and went storming AI space with my MSD (loop-build on 3x4=12 caps of younglings and FDR: as the MSD has no gun, with a FRD order, it goes straight to the target, but everything that comes out of it inherit FRD and spread toward enemies.)

It was like controlling dozens of friendly Roaming Enclaves. It's a golden memory I truly cherish.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: zharmad on September 15, 2016, 05:17:42 PM
Imagination:
The Neinzul faction will have somewhat of a different start. They won't begin with metal not harvest tech, and won't need it to build basic ships and structures. Instead of space docks or engineers, large carriers will be responsible for construction - spawning child enclaves that slowly transform into structures.

The younglings will not be individually controllable, but will update their frd/defensive/patrol instructions via command given to their host carrier. So the number of carriers increase your tactical flexibility as well as strength.
That's it for now.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 16, 2016, 03:17:41 AM
Imagination:
The Neinzul faction will have somewhat of a different start. They won't begin with metal not harvest tech, and won't need it to build basic ships and structures. Instead of space docks or engineers, large carriers will be responsible for construction - spawning child enclaves that slowly transform into structures.

The younglings will not be individually controllable, but will update their frd/defensive/patrol instructions via command given to their host carrier. So the number of carriers increase your tactical flexibility as well as strength.
That's it for now.
Ohai Zerg! Haven't seen you in a while.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: zharmad on September 16, 2016, 03:57:54 AM
Yes and no. If you want to have a super- reductionist spree, I suggest boiling down every story to its core components. ;)
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/07/the-six-main-arcs-in-storytelling-identified-by-a-computer/490733/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/07/the-six-main-arcs-in-storytelling-identified-by-a-computer/490733/)

Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 16, 2016, 04:12:51 AM
My point was the whole "drones morphing into buildings" thing ^^
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 16, 2016, 04:45:03 AM
My point was the whole "drones morphing into buildings" thing ^^

Grey goo style ?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/290790/?l=french

Ok, the game itself may not be deserving of a lot of praise, but the grey goo mechanics could be morphed into something fun. Which would probably deserve its own race.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 16, 2016, 04:56:34 AM
Grey Goo is actually a very solid C&C style RTS. Of the best RTSs in later years. Botched by poor performance and poor marketing, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: zharmad on September 16, 2016, 07:11:09 AM
Grey Goo is actually a very solid C&C style RTS. Of the best RTSs in later years. Botched by poor performance and poor marketing, unfortunately.
Absolutely. The multiplayer community never reached critical mass, as far as I could tell from the outside.

The central unit, and the entire infrastructure being centred around the mother goo idea is one that would be lore-wise compatible with the Neinzul, at least be what we know about them. The way Grey Goo enforces different base building for each race is also something that I think could be further explored.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 16, 2016, 07:50:12 AM
::)

I liked the grey goo mechanisms in it. Other factions, I found really bland. Just a matter of taste possibly...
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 16, 2016, 08:06:55 AM
::)

I liked the grey goo mechanisms in it. Other factions, I found really bland. Just a matter of taste possibly...
Humans had the interesting artillery mines, the teleportation and FoF walls to their credit. I never liked Beta. Shroud is just 100% weird, but awesome.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 16, 2016, 09:03:43 AM
Impossibility to build secondary bases easily due to the connector thingy kind of killed the faction for me.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 16, 2016, 09:12:18 AM
Impossibility to build secondary bases easily due to the connector thingy kind of killed the faction for me.

With their stupid defensive buildings and overpowered shields that was kind of the point. You wouldn't need to. It was a defining trait of the faction. If one does not like that then well...yeah, you won't like the faction ^^
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 16, 2016, 10:43:48 AM
So I'm leaning into a combination of Goo-Zerg with Protoss air gameplay.

:D
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 16, 2016, 10:47:44 AM
I think this thread needs an inside man to bring out the complete lore of the neinzul into the open.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 16, 2016, 10:53:57 AM
I think this thread needs an inside man to bring out the complete lore of the neinzul into the open.

 ???  ::)  :o  :-X
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Aklyon on September 16, 2016, 12:38:29 PM
I think this thread needs an inside man to bring out the complete lore of the neinzul into the open.

 ???  ::)  :o  :-X
Tell usssssss.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 16, 2016, 12:47:34 PM
I think this thread needs an inside man to bring out the complete lore of the neinzul into the open.

 ???  ::)  :o  :-X

(https://media.makeameme.org/created/oh-really-tell-xfdqq9.jpg)
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 16, 2016, 12:59:50 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzghw_Rzurn0AqA30jJaUVOv30CGRVod3tozCv6Bk27w6ctZ-R)
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 18, 2016, 07:30:27 AM
I had some idea. You know the nebula champion scenario has some neinzul factions in them right?

Lets assume that they somehow survive up to AI War 2 era. They manage to still stay completely nomadic and never truly "settle down" anywhere at all.

Instead most of your neinzul infrastructure will be entirely mobile (flagship/mothership is slated to be mobile anyway so might as well expand on that). Defensive structure (turret/regen chamber/fortress and the likes) will still be stationary so they are not completely helpless if AI decide to skip your fleet.

There will still be a few other supporting (especially energy/fuel) infrastructure that do not move with your other mobile infrastructure.

Grey Goo faction was entirely too heavily on mobile for my taste. I would like to see more of Hierarchy style from Universe at War.

For those who don't know. They had a different play style where their own factories are essentially multi-role giant walker that could build and deploy unit while moving. Those same walker also could further specalized into battlefortress role with more armor/weapon and/or specialized into making more units. Since we are moving away from modular with clunky module GUI lets explore other option that doesn't involve modules.


Perhaps we could just have different kind of carriers that focus on different style of fighting. Neinzul starship will be swarm-less copycat of AI hybrid from AI war classic built solely for fighting. Neinzul carriers (one carrier spawn blitz neinzul, different carrier spawn neinzul fighter, etc...) would spawn squads of neinzul to fight as per AI war classic enclave/combat carrier. Lets treat all ship construction within something of a huge cousin of Neinzul enclave ship. The neinzul ship construction will be treat as an organic process and can't be speed up but if cornered they can spawn lot of squad on demand.

Sadly many video game don't do the concept of being entirely nomadic very well. So I am willing to wait a bit longer before we see it happens.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: tadrinth on September 25, 2016, 02:57:16 PM
You know, I wonder how much of a 'neinzul' feel you could get by having a candy tech unlock that converts a unit into a Youngling version, something like:
* 90% cost reduction
* massively increased speed
* slight reduction in stats
* self-attritions in 3 mins

Then if you start as Neinzul, all your fleetships have that candy tech unlock applied.  Some kind of bonus to mobile space docks might be appropriate also.   

I like drone spawners, but this might be easier to implement and balance. 
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Sestren on September 25, 2016, 03:50:19 PM
You know, I wonder how much of a 'neinzul' feel you could get by having a candy tech unlock that converts a unit into a Youngling version, something like:
* 90% cost reduction
* massively increased speed
* slight reduction in stats
* self-attritions in 3 mins

Then if you start as Neinzul, all your fleetships have that candy tech unlock applied.  Some kind of bonus to mobile space docks might be appropriate also.   

I like drone spawners, but this might be easier to implement and balance. 

I can see a usability problem with that. The other candy techs don't have a downside. If you unlock hardening and then later decide 'that really wasn't all that helpful' aside from being out the K, your ships aren't negatively impacted in any way. If you buy this and then decide it isn't a good fit for your strategy, that shipclass is stuck with it and your best bet is to reload.

It could definitely work for starting as neinzul and could probably be done entirely via data. Define a new tech, define new versions of all the fleetships that get the tech by default, define a race that gets those ships, done. Be a good proof of concept.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Tridus on September 25, 2016, 03:52:55 PM
Yeah that sounds like it's something moddable.

I'd also never use it. I HATE that short self attrition. It annoys me to no end.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 25, 2016, 04:19:04 PM
Yeah that sounds like it's something moddable.

I'd also never use it. I HATE that short self attrition. It annoys me to no end.

How about having a "fuel storage" that will last for 3 min and once it run out. It will slow down to 25% of it's original speed and until it return to a regen chamber refuel deposit thingy. It will be unable to go any deeper into AI territory? How that sound?
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Tridus on September 25, 2016, 04:39:21 PM
But then you have a unit barely moving as it limps home, which is itself annoying in the same way Gravity Drills were in Classic.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 25, 2016, 05:44:42 PM
But then you have a unit barely moving as it limps home, which is itself annoying in the same way Gravity Drills were in Classic.

Do you have a different suggestion that allow us to showcase that neinzul are nimble and weak (either through self-damage or low hp in general or self-attrition or other) while moving away from self-attrition that most of Neinzul has? I am open to other suggestion but my idea has a good way to ties with fuel mechanic and prevent player from using Neinzul far away from frontline which is the more or less same thing self-attrition does. Perhaps a mobile refinery to re-supply Neinzul that ran out of fuel? After all Neinzul regen chamber has never saw that much use (at least from my point of view).

At least this way it allow us to encourage us to setup fuel deposit a few hops over there and have neinzul "strike" from there.

I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 25, 2016, 06:04:08 PM
Some enclaves could double up as regen chambers. They'd be that much useful if they were on the front lines =). Oh, and if they were capable of resending the units back into a fight too (been a while since I used them, last time I checked, it was not possible to give automatic orders of units getting out of the regen chamber).

I disagree with removing the attrition from the neinzuls, it's like removing beards from female dwarves to me. That said... options, options.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 25, 2016, 06:24:46 PM
Yeah enclave and regen chamber always had some issue or another. There was actually a point in AI classic war history when enclave drones didn't start on FRD and you had to do it manually.

I think the main issue is how to give a "rally or sequence of orders" to a mobile ship and have it pass on to drones.

The only time you could do that is if the ships spawned on a warpgate or there was a rally point on planet (neither mechanic applied to neinzul drones sadly).
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Tridus on September 25, 2016, 06:26:02 PM
Keep in mind that lots of Neinzul units *don't* have self attrition. Only Younglings do. Even Railpods don't, they consume HP to do damage instead. Enclaves and such don't.

I don't know what they should look like at this point, but I'm tossing some ideas around mobile structures and such around in my head. I do think that self-attrition isn't it.

Personally the enclave/carrier type setup and railpods are more "Neinzul" to me than Younglings are. I'd go with something along those lines, where everything is mobile, drones are common, and there's little to nothing in the way of fixed buildings.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Pumpkin on September 26, 2016, 12:55:00 AM
I understand your point of view around the self-attrition of the Younglings, Tridus. However I played "Neinzul" in one of my past games and really clicked with it. Maybe you should use the self-attritionning Younglings just like railpods: produce and use as you go, never store, never wait. (I don't use Regen Chambers.)

Basically, Mobile Space Docks + Younglings are just like awesome Enclave Starships.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: tadrinth on September 26, 2016, 04:35:52 PM
I can see a usability problem with that. The other candy techs don't have a downside.

My intent was that no one else has access to this candy tech.  Only the neinzul get it, and they start with it on all their fleetships. That way the decision is 'play as neinzul or not', rather than deciding in-game to unlock this for a ship type. 

I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.

Golems aren't disposable.  Neinzul units are supposed to be; disposability is their thing.  Personally, I tend to be *incredibly* conservative with my units: I use champion shadow shields aggressively to minimum losses, use mostly low-cap or long-ranged ships, and reload if I take unacceptable losses.  It takes extreme measures to push me to treat units as disposable.  That's what starting as a different race needs to accomplish; to get someone to fundamentally change their playstyle. 

Starting with MSDs and younglings instead of the regular triangle would probably get me to do that.  And, to Pumpkin's point, an MSD in FRD spamming Younglings is a far more badass Enclave Starship, albeit one that costs you metal to run.  Some interface improvements might be useful, certainly; I'll start a new thread for those.  And if there are better ways to make them feel disposable than the current self-attrition mechanic, great. 

That said, yeah, if drone spawners are available as a mechanic, I would instead replace all the neinzul fleet ships with enclave starships that produce drone versions. IE, you don't get fighters, you get a fighter-drone-spawner.  You'd need to limit the range of these somewhat, so you aren't killing things with drones while the spawner hangs back in safety.   
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 26, 2016, 09:48:16 PM
I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.

Golems aren't disposable.  Neinzul units are supposed to be; disposability is their thing.  Personally, I tend to be *incredibly* conservative with my units: I use champion shadow shields aggressively to minimum losses, use mostly low-cap or long-ranged ships, and reload if I take unacceptable losses.  It takes extreme measures to push me to treat units as disposable.  That's what starting as a different race needs to accomplish; to get someone to fundamentally change their playstyle. 

Starting with MSDs and younglings instead of the regular triangle would probably get me to do that.  And, to Pumpkin's point, an MSD in FRD spamming Younglings is a far more badass Enclave Starship, albeit one that costs you metal to run.  Some interface improvements might be useful, certainly; I'll start a new thread for those.  And if there are better ways to make them feel disposable than the current self-attrition mechanic, great. 

That said, yeah, if drone spawners are available as a mechanic, I would instead replace all the neinzul fleet ships with enclave starships that produce drone versions. IE, you don't get fighters, you get a fighter-drone-spawner.  You'd need to limit the range of these somewhat, so you aren't killing things with drones while the spawner hangs back in safety.   

Golem are NOT guaranteed to have the type you need nevermind that losing one in AI Classic can be a severe blow. God know I had some campaigns where I had 8 golems and wished I had an artillery golem and did not find one or galaxy seed did not spawn one.

It used to be super-expensive metal/crystal-wise to keep them on. So there were some micro-intensive to toggle them on/off to turn off the self-attrition when there was nothing to shoot at. There was too many stuff that out-performance golem while incurring very little downside. I am sure there were more reasons that I am forgetting off my head as to why Golem doesn't have self-attrition anymore.

More to the point making Neinzul act like a "protoss carrier" doesn't appeal to me as a decent compromise to keep self-attrition and Neinzul intact. If anything it would make Neinzul more of a standoff gameplay and less living thing in space that swarm you.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 27, 2016, 04:43:44 AM
One of the primary issues I need to overcome with the Neinzul as a playable faction is the attrition time.  It almost has to be a non-factor for gameplay reasons.  Neinzul Younglings controlled by anyone else should attrition normally. 
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 27, 2016, 01:46:55 PM
One of the primary issues I need to overcome with the Neinzul as a playable faction is the attrition time.  It almost has to be a non-factor for gameplay reasons.  Neinzul Younglings controlled by anyone else should attrition normally.

Which is exactly why I suggest using fuel as alternative. After all there is so much energy a small living in space can hold before thermodynamic law kick in.

The closest analogy I can think of is Kadashi Swarmer from Homeworld 1. For those who don't know. They were essentially "fighters" with limited air time due to fuel and need to head back to refuel from time to time. Your fighters also had some limited air time as well. So as a player your first priority is to kill the fuel pod (yes it is actually called that) and keep enough space superiority to push back until you get them all.

Keep in mind this will only applies to "nimble fleetship" and not the "starship/capital ship" of Neinzul.

This way you can keep the "returning to a hive" feeling of Neinzul and make it work with fuel system.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 27, 2016, 01:54:47 PM
The attrition is fine. They have a short life, that should be reflected in the game. Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

Neinzul lifespans are only an issue when you're gathering a huge siege force. The solution is to reduce Neinzul Younglings production time to zero? Change the GUI for a Neinzu player so they're choosing how many of a given Youngling they're creating, then press a button and poof.

My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 27, 2016, 02:45:17 PM
Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

I was leaning in this direction already.

Quote
My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 27, 2016, 04:00:01 PM
Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

I was leaning in this direction already.

Quote
My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 27, 2016, 04:13:03 PM
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.
[/quote]

Except you aren't getting your buddies memories either.  x/n tracking across the entire population of a specific ship racks up numbers quickly.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 27, 2016, 05:15:03 PM
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.

Except you aren't getting your buddies memories either.  x/n tracking across the entire population of a specific ship racks up numbers quickly.
[/quote]
 ???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 27, 2016, 07:58:24 PM
???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.

Suppose if I were playing a Neinzul. I might be tempted to horde all of those "upgraded" Neinzul until I am ready for a big push which is counter-productive to Neinzul core ideal that everything is short-lived and not worthwhile keeping. I meant do you really keep all those neinzul railgun in your homeworld far behind the enemy line?
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 27, 2016, 09:33:01 PM
???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.

Suppose if I were playing a Neinzul. I might be tempted to horde all of those "upgraded" Neinzul until I am ready for a big push which is counter-productive to Neinzul core ideal that everything is short-lived and not worthwhile keeping. I meant do you really keep all those neinzul railgun in your homeworld far behind the enemy line?

Railpods aren't exactly younglings either :p
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 27, 2016, 09:38:37 PM
It doesn't matter which version you use instead of railgun. My point remain the same. Either it is too valuable that it cease to be a neinzul or feel swarmy enough.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 27, 2016, 10:12:14 PM
In any case, why would memories of one neinzul cease transferring to new bodies after the second was destroyed?
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 27, 2016, 11:12:28 PM
It doesn't matter which version you use instead of railgun. My point remain the same. Either it is too valuable that it cease to be a neinzul or feel swarmy enough.
Hah, good point. It should keep the "use it or lose it" feel.

In any case, why would memories of one neinzul cease transferring to new bodies after the second was destroyed?
Crunchy lore reasons. I want some time to write it out AND it's something that ought to be explored in game instead of on the forum. At its most basic? Neinzul don't reincarnate.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 28, 2016, 01:33:21 AM
Hum... the whole "reincarnate" aspect is something I'd never have associated to neinzuls. I view them more as zergs, they become more dangerous because they evolve to new more dangerous forms and not because they're "learning" like the ships in battlestar galactica... the reincarnation concept is a cool base concept for a race though, but as stated above, the whole "keeping evolved one for big assaults" is somewhat of an gameplay issue.

To recreate this view I'd have pushed for an in-game mechanic were destroying stuff would give temporary bonus related to what you've destroyed to your troops => you destroyed guard posts ? your newly build units all get bonus against guard posts... and so on.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 28, 2016, 02:34:41 AM
Hum... the whole "reincarnate" aspect is something I'd never have associated to neinzuls. I view them more as zergs, they become more dangerous because they evolve to new more dangerous forms and not because they're "learning" like the ships in battlestar galactica... the reincarnation concept is a cool base concept for a race though, but as stated above, the whole "keeping evolved one for big assaults" is somewhat of an gameplay issue.

To recreate this view I'd have pushed for an in-game mechanic were destroying stuff would give temporary bonus related to what you've destroyed to your troops => you destroyed guard posts ? your newly build units all get bonus against guard posts... and so on.

Not quite correct on the learning part bit.

Most of Zerg creatures were "copied" from another creature and re-adopted into their current form. Baneling and other morphling like it is bit of an oddball since it used a pre-existing zerg unit and add another form.

Just one example: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantis_proximae

Zerg took the creature and adopt their telepathic nature. This is not the only examples you can find.

You can think of zerg process of assimilation more of botnet golem hijack living organisms and make them do what you want than resurrection. I will admit Kerrigan is definitely an oddball in that respect (hijacked not once but twice!).
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 28, 2016, 02:47:10 AM
Ummm... that's what I said. Zergs adapt by evolving, not by learning. Well. "Doesn't learn" is a bit pushing it. Their elite can create new breeds / use new tactics from the material they've gathered. But individual "zergs", the frontlines that died, they're dead.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 28, 2016, 03:13:02 AM
While the Neinzul and Zerg share some similarities, I don't see them as very similar. The Zerg are mutatagenic and use the genetic material from the species they devour to direct their own evolution. The Neinzul are giant space bugs. While generations of Younglings pass quickly, it's the Enclaves that are susceptible to evolutionary pressure.

The Zerg are a hivemind ruled by an individual, and common Zerg bioforms are its drones. The Neinzul are INVIDIVIDUALS who are born with the memories of previous Neinzul going back generations. Every Neinzul is a (bug) person with their own hopes, thoughts and feelings who knows they have ~24 hours to live.

 :D
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Cinth on September 28, 2016, 03:55:18 AM
Individuals with a seemingly collective consciousness.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 28, 2016, 04:00:30 AM
Individuals with a seemingly collective consciousness.
Collective memory, not consciousness. Every newborn Neinzul gets a random download of memories from a very heavily fragmented archive, and adds a copy of its memories to said archive on death.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 28, 2016, 04:09:18 AM
Zergs are individuals too... even if somewhat limited intellectually ;D. Well as far as the lore I've read is correct, I missed some of the SC2 part. Much like the bugs in ender's game, from what I recall from the later books in the series. I agree that the "hivemind" part does not fit neinzuls.

About neinzuls the part where they're all born for 24 hours (or rather 5 seconds when I use them to crush an AI's defenses) with all of their ancestors memory I don't see fitting. In enclave, ok, why not. In individual neinzuls ? Ok, it sounds cool, but neinzuls reproduce like crazy, very fast and in huge number, and somehow in them they have some kind of mental brain capable of storing their history, weapons, engines and all ? And are capable of "building" that with no remorse nor any "engineering" issues doing those fast and in huge numbers ? And, somehow, they've got some kind of link that can transfer memories ?

I'm all for blue & orange mentality, and aliens which are really alien, and / or have fantastic capabilities, but I don't see that possible unless magic's involved. To me, it's too far-fetched. I'd be ok with the enclave building the yougling's "memory" and its brain so it can function & think, but that's about it.


That said. Only an opinion. ;D

PS: kind of the point why I asked for precisions in the neinzul lore a few pages back =). It changes a lot what the race should play as.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 28, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
In starcraft 2 it has been hinted that Zerg has change into "independent brood Queen". There is a whole line of conversation center around becoming more self-aware for a Queen.

By independent I meant they are fully capable of making their own decision and go along with it. Especially ever since Kerrigan got free of "an evil influence". Trying to not spoil the story that much.

They are not fully hivemind anymore.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Captain Jack on September 28, 2016, 07:59:05 PM
Zergs are individuals too... even if somewhat limited intellectually ;D. Well as far as the lore I've read is correct, I missed some of the SC2 part. Much like the bugs in ender's game, from what I recall from the later books in the series. I agree that the "hivemind" part does not fit neinzuls.

About neinzuls the part where they're all born for 24 hours (or rather 5 seconds when I use them to crush an AI's defenses) with all of their ancestors memory I don't see fitting. In enclave, ok, why not. In individual neinzuls ? Ok, it sounds cool, but neinzuls reproduce like crazy, very fast and in huge number, and somehow in them they have some kind of mental brain capable of storing their history, weapons, engines and all ? And are capable of "building" that with no remorse nor any "engineering" issues doing those fast and in huge numbers ? And, somehow, they've got some kind of link that can transfer memories ?

I'm all for blue & orange mentality, and aliens which are really alien, and / or have fantastic capabilities, but I don't see that possible unless magic's involved. To me, it's too far-fetched. I'd be ok with the enclave building the yougling's "memory" and its brain so it can function & think, but that's about it.


That said. Only an opinion. ;D

PS: kind of the point why I asked for precisions in the neinzul lore a few pages back =). It changes a lot what the race should play as.

The fun part is that there IS a potential real world explanation that dovetails with stuff in AI War lore already.

The scale you're suggesting is way off though. No Enclave has the whole of the Neinzul's memories, much less any individual.

@Vyndicu: The real amazing bit in your post is realizing that there's Starcraft lore past Brood War. :p
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Vyndicu on September 28, 2016, 09:06:11 PM
@Vyndicu: The real amazing bit in your post is realizing that there's Starcraft lore past Brood War. :p

Yeah blizzard lately have not done very well with lore across their products.

Not as good as when they were "blizzard north".

But this problem is not unique nor limited to blizzard.
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 29, 2016, 02:27:40 AM
This is Blizzard. They're known for saying "**** the lore, we have a game to make" and just completely screw everything over. (See the Warcraft universe these days. It's an utter crappile of retcons, space demons and stupidity).
Title: Re: Play as the Neinzul
Post by: kasnavada on September 29, 2016, 05:23:51 AM
This is Blizzard. They're known for saying "**** the lore, we have a game to make" and just completely screw everything over. (See the Warcraft universe these days. It's an utter crappile of retcons, space demons and stupidity).

You forgot adding easter pandas into the "lore", and setting the creator's pet, scrappy Thrall, as the Center of the Multiverse.