Author Topic: Play as the Neinzul  (Read 4917 times)

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2016, 05:15:03 PM »
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.

Except you aren't getting your buddies memories either.  x/n tracking across the entire population of a specific ship racks up numbers quickly.
[/quote]
 ???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2016, 07:58:24 PM »
???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.

Suppose if I were playing a Neinzul. I might be tempted to horde all of those "upgraded" Neinzul until I am ready for a big push which is counter-productive to Neinzul core ideal that everything is short-lived and not worthwhile keeping. I meant do you really keep all those neinzul railgun in your homeworld far behind the enemy line?

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2016, 09:33:01 PM »
???

I am not suggesting every ship type get a boost from the death of an individual member. Instead when a Youngling dies, a new Youngling spawns at the producer that created it with better stats. When the new vessel dies, that's it. No infinitely buffing Mk 1s to Golem status.

Suppose if I were playing a Neinzul. I might be tempted to horde all of those "upgraded" Neinzul until I am ready for a big push which is counter-productive to Neinzul core ideal that everything is short-lived and not worthwhile keeping. I meant do you really keep all those neinzul railgun in your homeworld far behind the enemy line?

Railpods aren't exactly younglings either :p
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2016, 09:38:37 PM »
It doesn't matter which version you use instead of railgun. My point remain the same. Either it is too valuable that it cease to be a neinzul or feel swarmy enough.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2016, 10:12:14 PM »
In any case, why would memories of one neinzul cease transferring to new bodies after the second was destroyed?
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2016, 11:12:28 PM »
It doesn't matter which version you use instead of railgun. My point remain the same. Either it is too valuable that it cease to be a neinzul or feel swarmy enough.
Hah, good point. It should keep the "use it or lose it" feel.

In any case, why would memories of one neinzul cease transferring to new bodies after the second was destroyed?
Crunchy lore reasons. I want some time to write it out AND it's something that ought to be explored in game instead of on the forum. At its most basic? Neinzul don't reincarnate.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2016, 01:33:21 AM »
Hum... the whole "reincarnate" aspect is something I'd never have associated to neinzuls. I view them more as zergs, they become more dangerous because they evolve to new more dangerous forms and not because they're "learning" like the ships in battlestar galactica... the reincarnation concept is a cool base concept for a race though, but as stated above, the whole "keeping evolved one for big assaults" is somewhat of an gameplay issue.

To recreate this view I'd have pushed for an in-game mechanic were destroying stuff would give temporary bonus related to what you've destroyed to your troops => you destroyed guard posts ? your newly build units all get bonus against guard posts... and so on.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2016, 02:34:41 AM »
Hum... the whole "reincarnate" aspect is something I'd never have associated to neinzuls. I view them more as zergs, they become more dangerous because they evolve to new more dangerous forms and not because they're "learning" like the ships in battlestar galactica... the reincarnation concept is a cool base concept for a race though, but as stated above, the whole "keeping evolved one for big assaults" is somewhat of an gameplay issue.

To recreate this view I'd have pushed for an in-game mechanic were destroying stuff would give temporary bonus related to what you've destroyed to your troops => you destroyed guard posts ? your newly build units all get bonus against guard posts... and so on.

Not quite correct on the learning part bit.

Most of Zerg creatures were "copied" from another creature and re-adopted into their current form. Baneling and other morphling like it is bit of an oddball since it used a pre-existing zerg unit and add another form.

Just one example: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantis_proximae

Zerg took the creature and adopt their telepathic nature. This is not the only examples you can find.

You can think of zerg process of assimilation more of botnet golem hijack living organisms and make them do what you want than resurrection. I will admit Kerrigan is definitely an oddball in that respect (hijacked not once but twice!).

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2016, 02:47:10 AM »
Ummm... that's what I said. Zergs adapt by evolving, not by learning. Well. "Doesn't learn" is a bit pushing it. Their elite can create new breeds / use new tactics from the material they've gathered. But individual "zergs", the frontlines that died, they're dead.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2016, 03:13:02 AM »
While the Neinzul and Zerg share some similarities, I don't see them as very similar. The Zerg are mutatagenic and use the genetic material from the species they devour to direct their own evolution. The Neinzul are giant space bugs. While generations of Younglings pass quickly, it's the Enclaves that are susceptible to evolutionary pressure.

The Zerg are a hivemind ruled by an individual, and common Zerg bioforms are its drones. The Neinzul are INVIDIVIDUALS who are born with the memories of previous Neinzul going back generations. Every Neinzul is a (bug) person with their own hopes, thoughts and feelings who knows they have ~24 hours to live.

 :D

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2016, 03:55:18 AM »
Individuals with a seemingly collective consciousness.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2016, 04:00:30 AM »
Individuals with a seemingly collective consciousness.
Collective memory, not consciousness. Every newborn Neinzul gets a random download of memories from a very heavily fragmented archive, and adds a copy of its memories to said archive on death.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2016, 04:09:18 AM »
Zergs are individuals too... even if somewhat limited intellectually ;D. Well as far as the lore I've read is correct, I missed some of the SC2 part. Much like the bugs in ender's game, from what I recall from the later books in the series. I agree that the "hivemind" part does not fit neinzuls.

About neinzuls the part where they're all born for 24 hours (or rather 5 seconds when I use them to crush an AI's defenses) with all of their ancestors memory I don't see fitting. In enclave, ok, why not. In individual neinzuls ? Ok, it sounds cool, but neinzuls reproduce like crazy, very fast and in huge number, and somehow in them they have some kind of mental brain capable of storing their history, weapons, engines and all ? And are capable of "building" that with no remorse nor any "engineering" issues doing those fast and in huge numbers ? And, somehow, they've got some kind of link that can transfer memories ?

I'm all for blue & orange mentality, and aliens which are really alien, and / or have fantastic capabilities, but I don't see that possible unless magic's involved. To me, it's too far-fetched. I'd be ok with the enclave building the yougling's "memory" and its brain so it can function & think, but that's about it.


That said. Only an opinion. ;D

PS: kind of the point why I asked for precisions in the neinzul lore a few pages back =). It changes a lot what the race should play as.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2016, 12:54:06 PM »
In starcraft 2 it has been hinted that Zerg has change into "independent brood Queen". There is a whole line of conversation center around becoming more self-aware for a Queen.

By independent I meant they are fully capable of making their own decision and go along with it. Especially ever since Kerrigan got free of "an evil influence". Trying to not spoil the story that much.

They are not fully hivemind anymore.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2016, 07:59:05 PM »
Zergs are individuals too... even if somewhat limited intellectually ;D. Well as far as the lore I've read is correct, I missed some of the SC2 part. Much like the bugs in ender's game, from what I recall from the later books in the series. I agree that the "hivemind" part does not fit neinzuls.

About neinzuls the part where they're all born for 24 hours (or rather 5 seconds when I use them to crush an AI's defenses) with all of their ancestors memory I don't see fitting. In enclave, ok, why not. In individual neinzuls ? Ok, it sounds cool, but neinzuls reproduce like crazy, very fast and in huge number, and somehow in them they have some kind of mental brain capable of storing their history, weapons, engines and all ? And are capable of "building" that with no remorse nor any "engineering" issues doing those fast and in huge numbers ? And, somehow, they've got some kind of link that can transfer memories ?

I'm all for blue & orange mentality, and aliens which are really alien, and / or have fantastic capabilities, but I don't see that possible unless magic's involved. To me, it's too far-fetched. I'd be ok with the enclave building the yougling's "memory" and its brain so it can function & think, but that's about it.


That said. Only an opinion. ;D

PS: kind of the point why I asked for precisions in the neinzul lore a few pages back =). It changes a lot what the race should play as.

The fun part is that there IS a potential real world explanation that dovetails with stuff in AI War lore already.

The scale you're suggesting is way off though. No Enclave has the whole of the Neinzul's memories, much less any individual.

@Vyndicu: The real amazing bit in your post is realizing that there's Starcraft lore past Brood War. :p