Author Topic: Play as the Neinzul  (Read 4691 times)

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2016, 04:19:04 PM »
Yeah that sounds like it's something moddable.

I'd also never use it. I HATE that short self attrition. It annoys me to no end.

How about having a "fuel storage" that will last for 3 min and once it run out. It will slow down to 25% of it's original speed and until it return to a regen chamber refuel deposit thingy. It will be unable to go any deeper into AI territory? How that sound?

Offline Tridus

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2016, 04:39:21 PM »
But then you have a unit barely moving as it limps home, which is itself annoying in the same way Gravity Drills were in Classic.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2016, 05:44:42 PM »
But then you have a unit barely moving as it limps home, which is itself annoying in the same way Gravity Drills were in Classic.

Do you have a different suggestion that allow us to showcase that neinzul are nimble and weak (either through self-damage or low hp in general or self-attrition or other) while moving away from self-attrition that most of Neinzul has? I am open to other suggestion but my idea has a good way to ties with fuel mechanic and prevent player from using Neinzul far away from frontline which is the more or less same thing self-attrition does. Perhaps a mobile refinery to re-supply Neinzul that ran out of fuel? After all Neinzul regen chamber has never saw that much use (at least from my point of view).

At least this way it allow us to encourage us to setup fuel deposit a few hops over there and have neinzul "strike" from there.

I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2016, 06:04:08 PM »
Some enclaves could double up as regen chambers. They'd be that much useful if they were on the front lines =). Oh, and if they were capable of resending the units back into a fight too (been a while since I used them, last time I checked, it was not possible to give automatic orders of units getting out of the regen chamber).

I disagree with removing the attrition from the neinzuls, it's like removing beards from female dwarves to me. That said... options, options.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2016, 06:24:46 PM »
Yeah enclave and regen chamber always had some issue or another. There was actually a point in AI classic war history when enclave drones didn't start on FRD and you had to do it manually.

I think the main issue is how to give a "rally or sequence of orders" to a mobile ship and have it pass on to drones.

The only time you could do that is if the ships spawned on a warpgate or there was a rally point on planet (neither mechanic applied to neinzul drones sadly).

Offline Tridus

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2016, 06:26:02 PM »
Keep in mind that lots of Neinzul units *don't* have self attrition. Only Younglings do. Even Railpods don't, they consume HP to do damage instead. Enclaves and such don't.

I don't know what they should look like at this point, but I'm tossing some ideas around mobile structures and such around in my head. I do think that self-attrition isn't it.

Personally the enclave/carrier type setup and railpods are more "Neinzul" to me than Younglings are. I'd go with something along those lines, where everything is mobile, drones are common, and there's little to nothing in the way of fixed buildings.

Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2016, 12:55:00 AM »
I understand your point of view around the self-attrition of the Younglings, Tridus. However I played "Neinzul" in one of my past games and really clicked with it. Maybe you should use the self-attritionning Younglings just like railpods: produce and use as you go, never store, never wait. (I don't use Regen Chambers.)

Basically, Mobile Space Docks + Younglings are just like awesome Enclave Starships.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline tadrinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2016, 04:35:52 PM »
I can see a usability problem with that. The other candy techs don't have a downside.

My intent was that no one else has access to this candy tech.  Only the neinzul get it, and they start with it on all their fleetships. That way the decision is 'play as neinzul or not', rather than deciding in-game to unlock this for a ship type. 

I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.

Golems aren't disposable.  Neinzul units are supposed to be; disposability is their thing.  Personally, I tend to be *incredibly* conservative with my units: I use champion shadow shields aggressively to minimum losses, use mostly low-cap or long-ranged ships, and reload if I take unacceptable losses.  It takes extreme measures to push me to treat units as disposable.  That's what starting as a different race needs to accomplish; to get someone to fundamentally change their playstyle. 

Starting with MSDs and younglings instead of the regular triangle would probably get me to do that.  And, to Pumpkin's point, an MSD in FRD spamming Younglings is a far more badass Enclave Starship, albeit one that costs you metal to run.  Some interface improvements might be useful, certainly; I'll start a new thread for those.  And if there are better ways to make them feel disposable than the current self-attrition mechanic, great. 

That said, yeah, if drone spawners are available as a mechanic, I would instead replace all the neinzul fleet ships with enclave starships that produce drone versions. IE, you don't get fighters, you get a fighter-drone-spawner.  You'd need to limit the range of these somewhat, so you aren't killing things with drones while the spawner hangs back in safety.   
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 04:37:54 PM by tadrinth »

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2016, 09:48:16 PM »
I think most of us never really liked the self-attrition mechanics. Just look at golem history and they don't have self-attrition anymore.

If you want self-attrition mechanic to stay with neinzul faction. I would like to hear why it should.

Golems aren't disposable.  Neinzul units are supposed to be; disposability is their thing.  Personally, I tend to be *incredibly* conservative with my units: I use champion shadow shields aggressively to minimum losses, use mostly low-cap or long-ranged ships, and reload if I take unacceptable losses.  It takes extreme measures to push me to treat units as disposable.  That's what starting as a different race needs to accomplish; to get someone to fundamentally change their playstyle. 

Starting with MSDs and younglings instead of the regular triangle would probably get me to do that.  And, to Pumpkin's point, an MSD in FRD spamming Younglings is a far more badass Enclave Starship, albeit one that costs you metal to run.  Some interface improvements might be useful, certainly; I'll start a new thread for those.  And if there are better ways to make them feel disposable than the current self-attrition mechanic, great. 

That said, yeah, if drone spawners are available as a mechanic, I would instead replace all the neinzul fleet ships with enclave starships that produce drone versions. IE, you don't get fighters, you get a fighter-drone-spawner.  You'd need to limit the range of these somewhat, so you aren't killing things with drones while the spawner hangs back in safety.   

Golem are NOT guaranteed to have the type you need nevermind that losing one in AI Classic can be a severe blow. God know I had some campaigns where I had 8 golems and wished I had an artillery golem and did not find one or galaxy seed did not spawn one.

It used to be super-expensive metal/crystal-wise to keep them on. So there were some micro-intensive to toggle them on/off to turn off the self-attrition when there was nothing to shoot at. There was too many stuff that out-performance golem while incurring very little downside. I am sure there were more reasons that I am forgetting off my head as to why Golem doesn't have self-attrition anymore.

More to the point making Neinzul act like a "protoss carrier" doesn't appeal to me as a decent compromise to keep self-attrition and Neinzul intact. If anything it would make Neinzul more of a standoff gameplay and less living thing in space that swarm you.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2016, 04:43:44 AM »
One of the primary issues I need to overcome with the Neinzul as a playable faction is the attrition time.  It almost has to be a non-factor for gameplay reasons.  Neinzul Younglings controlled by anyone else should attrition normally. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2016, 01:46:55 PM »
One of the primary issues I need to overcome with the Neinzul as a playable faction is the attrition time.  It almost has to be a non-factor for gameplay reasons.  Neinzul Younglings controlled by anyone else should attrition normally.

Which is exactly why I suggest using fuel as alternative. After all there is so much energy a small living in space can hold before thermodynamic law kick in.

The closest analogy I can think of is Kadashi Swarmer from Homeworld 1. For those who don't know. They were essentially "fighters" with limited air time due to fuel and need to head back to refuel from time to time. Your fighters also had some limited air time as well. So as a player your first priority is to kill the fuel pod (yes it is actually called that) and keep enough space superiority to push back until you get them all.

Keep in mind this will only applies to "nimble fleetship" and not the "starship/capital ship" of Neinzul.

This way you can keep the "returning to a hive" feeling of Neinzul and make it work with fuel system.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2016, 01:54:47 PM »
The attrition is fine. They have a short life, that should be reflected in the game. Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

Neinzul lifespans are only an issue when you're gathering a huge siege force. The solution is to reduce Neinzul Younglings production time to zero? Change the GUI for a Neinzu player so they're choosing how many of a given Youngling they're creating, then press a button and poof.

My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2016, 02:45:17 PM »
Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

I was leaning in this direction already.

Quote
My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Captain Jack

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2016, 04:00:01 PM »
Trading DOT for a flat timer after which they expire is also acceptable.

I was leaning in this direction already.

Quote
My biggest issue with the Neinzul is that their gameplay doesn't reflect their description well. They're supposed to "be replaced with vicious replacements". I'd actually have that be a gameplay mechanic/candy tech: a Neinzul that survives a certain amount of time spawns a more powerful unit at its base when it dies, representing the transfer of memories to a new host body.
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Play as the Neinzul
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2016, 04:13:03 PM »
Most likely a tech.  A mechanic that allows for a unit to get stronger every x/n deaths is just asking for abuse.
Not x deaths, death+1. They get one revive boost and maybe a shorter timer.
[/quote]

Except you aren't getting your buddies memories either.  x/n tracking across the entire population of a specific ship racks up numbers quickly.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.