Author Topic: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.  (Read 3782 times)

Offline x4000

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I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« on: September 08, 2016, 05:03:16 PM »
That's obviously very much in-progress right now, so please don't go pointing out omissions just yet. ;)

But I decided to take a break from some of the larger stuff today and instead focus on the million, million pieces of minutia.  I can't thank Cinth and those other of you enough for helping to set up this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E78-KtgIKyAExd9VpIKe2aXEKFO14A8b9zRLwRENkRk/edit#

Anyway, I might or might not have time to finish this tonight, I'm not sure.  It's taking slightly longer than I expected, but going well.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 05:18:26 PM »
Thanks for this Chris, really liking it so far.

Whether or not you keep the Hull Types, I think the main thing that could instantly make a lot of these things useful/balance would be a revamped armor system.

I brought up the suggestion before of an "Armor Value" system, going from 0 to 10. Each point represents 10% resistance to all damage, with 10 armor being 100% resistance to damage. Ships then have Armor Penetration values which are subtracted from the Armor Value of any ship, resulting in the net damage reduction (if any).

I like this system because it's simple, intuitive, and easy to balance.

For example, I see that your "Snipers" are considered a massive balance issue right now. However, what if they stayed pretty much the way they are, except in the Armor system I've proposed they have 0 Armor Penetration? Suddenly against anything with Armor Values they are dealing significantly reduced damage, and against Heavily armored ships (and structures, which by their very nature are armored) they are dealing almost no damage at all.

This ship is balanced almost instantly as a long-range light unit killer (which seems like whats role should have been from the very start). It would also make the Armor Booster, Armor ship, and Space Tank instantly good.

The armor system could also create variations in ships with otherwise very similar roles. The Raider and the Space Plane may have a lot in common (with the Space Plane being in most cases, defacto better), but if the Raider has significantly more armor or armor pen, it can do things the Space Plane can't.

Also, if we're keeping forcefields I suggest that anything that can fire through them be revamped or removed from the game.

Those are my thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 05:21:24 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline zharmad

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 05:25:14 PM »
Actually it's more our turn to apologise because we didn't group the giant unit list by something other than expansion - alphabetical. :P It took me a while to realise, e.g., there is a third teleporting fleetship (those leeches), etc.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 06:42:51 PM »
Just went through the mobile units. Lots and lots of material! Yikes!
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 07:20:51 PM »
For example, I see that your "Snipers" are considered a massive balance issue right now. However, what if they stayed pretty much the way they are, except in the Armor system I've proposed they have 0 Armor Penetration? Suddenly against anything with Armor Values they are dealing significantly reduced damage, and against Heavily armored ships (and structures, which by their very nature are armored) they are dealing almost no damage at all.

This ship is balanced almost instantly as a long-range light unit killer (which seems like whats role should have been from the very start).

Snipers have 6x bonuses vs light and poor base DPS.  They're already a long range light unit killer. 

Offline Wingflier

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2016, 09:03:14 PM »
For example, I see that your "Snipers" are considered a massive balance issue right now. However, what if they stayed pretty much the way they are, except in the Armor system I've proposed they have 0 Armor Penetration? Suddenly against anything with Armor Values they are dealing significantly reduced damage, and against Heavily armored ships (and structures, which by their very nature are armored) they are dealing almost no damage at all.

This ship is balanced almost instantly as a long-range light unit killer (which seems like whats role should have been from the very start).

Snipers have 6x bonuses vs light and poor base DPS.  They're already a long range light unit killer.
True but that's not the problem people generally have with them. In a large group they can kill just about anything. And even if they did only counter light units, a 6x bonus is a little extreme wouldn't you say?

Small things don't generally have a lot of hp, so their DPS wouldn't have to be that high to counter those things without killing them all in one volley. Bonuses like that seem excessive.
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Offline x4000

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2016, 09:06:49 PM »
Hey folks,

So I've not remotely gotten through all of the ships (ahahahaha that I thought I could, sheesh).

However, what I have managed to do:

1. 7.a General Mechanics is "complete."
- I have at least ported over everything from the old game, and made changes where need be.
- I added in jacketing, as one new thing that worked well in TLF.
- I shifted the armor and piercing mechanics to work like Wingflier suggested in this thread, because that's awesome.
- I have a number of ~*~ entries in there where I'm actually asking for clarification because I don't remember what something does.
- I combined a LOT of immunities, because typically those went in predictable groups anyhow, and when they didn't they needed to.
- I am not addressing hull types or shot types yet, because I'm still thinking on that, but I think removal or at least vast simplification may happen.  I'm not really "there yet" mentally on that one, though.
- I removed sizes, because very little relies on that, and the things that did rely on that I didn't feel like warranted that much text all over the place.

2. 7.b Tech Upgrades is in progress.
- This is definitely not remotely complete, but I'm creating these as I go through ships from AI War Classic and look at how to at least pull them over in spirit if I'm not pulling them over directly.

3. 8.a Player-And-AI Ship Designs is in progress.
- I've only got 9 ships on this so far, but it's actually more than it seems like.
- Those 9 ships are what resulted after parsing the first 17 ships, so already we see a sharp reduction in ship types.
- THAT said, the techs that these things have available make for some potential freaking monstrosities of ships, holy cow. :D  Cloaked Forcefield-Evading Engine-Boring Electric Shuttles are a terrifying prospect.

4. 8.b Player-Only Ship Designs and 8.c. AI-Only Ship Designs barely have anything.
- However, the Minelayer for the AI was a great suggestion from Zharmad and will definitely make mines more meaningful from the AI.
- The Minesweeper on the other end of things was something I added as kind of a response to the role the tachyon microfighter could have before, but this is a lot more generalized and always available.

5. Section 8.5: Ships In Limbo (Temporarily)
- This has some stuff that I'm just undecided on in some manner so far.
- Either exactly how I want to handle the mechanics (scouts), or if I truly want it at all (drone spawning and those immunities)
- I had been on the fence about the boosts, but those will probably return if people want.

6. Section 9: Abandoned Mechanics is not remotely complete, but what is in there is "correct and complete" based on my current thinking.
- Most of this is not a surprise probably, although removing the longest-range stuff from the game has been a goal of mine for a looong time.
- I also am removing some other mechanics that were clunky for one reason or another, or just general balance issues.
- Mostly it was a matter of clunkiness, though.

7. Section 10: To Investigate During Early Access
- That's just a log of things that I don't really want to discuss right now (too theoretical and too complex without being able to prototype), but that I don't want to forget for us to look into during early access.
- Right now just reclamation, but I imagine that list will grow.


Anyhow, so that's where things are.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 09:39:41 PM »
Quote
Counter-shots (specialized turrets, Protector Starship, Scout Starship)

So sad. So very very sad. :(

Offline Toranth

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2016, 09:45:39 PM »
Quote
Counter-shots (specialized turrets, Protector Starship, Scout Starship)
So sad. So very very sad. :(
Agreed.  I loved the counter-* abilities.  Except dark matter, because that didn't matter.  But anti-missile turrets, and especially Protector Starships, were happiness and joy.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2016, 09:51:21 PM »
One "new" variant of the attack mechanics that I didn't manage to sneak in time would be a version of cutting through defenses. Rather then acting as armor rotters do by reducing the armor directly, the unit would cumulatively do more damage as the unit is attacked. This mechanic would be shared by other ships by that mechanic (so golems can't do double damage, but perhaps specialized swarms can). It give a potential counter to swammers against larger craft.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2016, 01:56:18 AM »
Quote
Counter-shots (specialized turrets, Protector Starship, Scout Starship)
So sad. So very very sad. :(
Agreed.  I loved the counter-* abilities.  Except dark matter, because that didn't matter.  But anti-missile turrets, and especially Protector Starships, were happiness and joy.

I'm glad that those are done with.
One of the issues with AI war was "Hey, that ship's cool !" but in practice it can't even shoot at anything. With that mechanic gone, it'll be better.


Removal of radar dampening & sniper immunities ? Finally ?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 05:03:58 AM by kasnavada »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2016, 04:35:25 AM »
I agree. Parasite was such a cool mechanic but the ships you really wanted to steal were all immune to it. :(

Glad to see the immunities getting a big revamp!
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2016, 05:03:38 AM »
So I read the WIP there:
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IdzU90psGas_3UFe23BLvsGQ8fclec49NmnbHfwkZ8w/edit#
Unit section.

About modificators:
- engine bore => terribly unclear what this ability is / does.
- jacketing => same issue.
- cloak boosting => same issue. I know what it does because I played AI war. But I always figured it as a workaround to make cloaked units more useful. I'd suggest a discussion on reworking cloaking.

Note, I'm pretty sure someone will point me to the section where it's defined. Which I didn't look at yet ON PURPOSE. My point ain't that I don't know what it is. My remark is that the name should immediately convey a general idea of what it does.

Forcefield evasion... that was kind of an OP possibility. All ships with forcefield immunity were of note. I would not put that one on "regular" upgrade paths, because that would be the only one I'd take - unless forcefields are somehow much less prevalent. Nah...who am I kidding. I'd use the forcefields to defend my units, making it OP again.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 05:05:47 AM by kasnavada »

Offline Tridus

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2016, 07:39:33 AM »
Quote
Counter-shots (specialized turrets, Protector Starship, Scout Starship)
So sad. So very very sad. :(
Agreed.  I loved the counter-* abilities.  Except dark matter, because that didn't matter.  But anti-missile turrets, and especially Protector Starships, were happiness and joy.

I'm glad that those are done with.
One of the issues with AI war was "Hey, that ship's cool !" but in practice it can't even shoot at anything. With that mechanic gone, it'll be better.


Removal of radar dampening & sniper immunities ? Finally ?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sniper immunity doesn't matter because snipers themselves appear to be gone, so there's nothing to be immune from.

There was a difference between "ships that can't shoot at anything because of piles of immunities and couter turrets", and the Protector Starship, which was an awesome fleet defense unit. Don't expect me to cheer when my favorite ship is unceremoniously yanked out of the game. :P

Offline kasnavada

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Re: I'm going through all the ship mechanics and ships today.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 08:23:37 AM »
Sniper immunity doesn't matter because snipers themselves appear to be gone, so there's nothing to be immune from.

Yes, still I won't regret them. OP on both sides, those were.
More immunities gone, I wish we had. Immunities, as a game mechanic, I hate.

There was a difference between "ships that can't shoot at anything because of piles of immunities and couter turrets", and the Protector Starship, which was an awesome fleet defense unit. Don't expect me to cheer when my favorite ship is unceremoniously yanked out of the game.
I can understand losing your favorite ships... I was very fond of the plane myself. Yet I'm glad it's gone. It was causing more issues than helping in anything.