Why not K-locking some MkI turrets?

[Pumpkin]

Yet another silly Pumpkin's idea! (soon renamed DumbKing)

Read the title of this thread twice: why not? I'm expecting you to tell my how and why my idea is lame.
But first, I need to explain this idea.

Fact is: I never unlock turrets. I once unlocked gravity, spider and HBC in a spire campaign (I love the galactic tower defense the game become then) and recently the tachyon turrets because I pushed myself out of my tracks and fought a stealth-master. Beyond that, I play with full cap of free MkI and spend all my Knowledge between fleet and starships, sometimes economic upgrades or some FFields, rarely a fortress or the ZSTManipulator. Sometimes I find a core turret controller but I barely never go for it.

My suggestion: K-lock most MkI turrets (in my idea, only the needlers, counter-sniper and tractors MkI would be K-free), and adjust the K-prices to let the full line cost unchanged.
Actually, for the classic turrets (non needler, non sniper), MkII cost 750, MkIII cost 1,250 more (2,000 total) and MkIV 1,500 more (3,500 total).
Example #1: MkI cost 500, MkII cost 750 more (1,250 total), MkIII cost 750 (2,000 total) and MkIV untouched.
Example #2: MkI cost 500, MkII cost 500 more (1,000 total), MkIII cost 1,000 (2,000 total) and MkIV untouched. (Maybe better.)
Trying to make place for a K-cost for MkI without dramatically changing total cost of higher mark.

This is intended to make players more able (or forced?) to personalize their turret choices. For instance, I prefer lightning turrets over flak turrets, just because I find the lightning effect fun and beautiful. I often use sniper/missile on lightly defended planets because I sometimes prefer not going turtle and Kahuna-style tractor/FField/flak/lightning in front of a wormhole or in the path of the AI. While I love this Kahuna-style and use it often, sometimes I prefer playing sit-on-the-bedrock AIP and archipelago-style conquest. I think the long range sniper/missile combo fit this play style. And it's a matter of style and taste. Gravity/mines in the way + spider/sniper away + OCStation paranoid-away from the wormholes could be another style: "you may pass to the deeper planets, but you'll be crippled on the way". (I once used that and it was fun!)

Also, what's the difference between needlers and laser turrets? What's the fundamental difference between flak and lightning? I feel it's a matter of taste, but while they are all K-unlocked from the start (at MkI), I feel there is no taste to express here.

In my current Core Dive game (go check the AAR) I'm playing way ahead of my usual AIP level, and still I feel like spending K in turrets is useless. Maybe I lack some FField or some tractors for all the frontiers, but full MkI is far enough to hold 250 ships waves at 200 AIP (just the tachyon because stealth-master).

I expect (hope) this little twist to let high AIP/difficulty unchanged but give more opportunity for players at 7/7, 200 AIP, 20 planets in middle-game (or below; this sounds average, doesn't it?) to express their tastes, build unlock strategies and push themselves out of their tracks by fighting setups unusual to them. I'm very happy this stealth-master forced me to use tachyon turrets and military OCStations; I would (barely) never use them, else. I learned why there is tachyon turrets and not only decloakers, and how military OCStations are usefull outside of intense defense fights. However, I still don't get the difference between flak and lightning or between laser and needlers, and I feel it's because the game never forced me to use one rather than another, and I think it would if unlocking some MkI turrets would be a choice and not a default.


Don't loose your time telling me I'm wrong. I know I am. Tell me why! Tell me how!

[Draco18s]

The idea for them being unlocked is to let the player experiment with the various types.

As for "what's the difference?" Hull bonuses.

[Kahuna]

What's the fundamental difference between flak and lightning?

What's the difference between a bear and a tiger?
What's the difference between pepper and salt?
Jokes aside: damage multipliers.

[Radiant Phoenix]

And I play entire games without unlocking any mk2 fleet ships except scouts, and with my only starship unlocks being Spire 1 and the Scout line. That doesn't mean that bombers and missile frigates should start out locked.

I don't like this idea.

[Pumpkin]

The idea for them being unlocked is to let the player experiment with the various types.

Okay. Same thing for starships having various abilities, or the standard mines or tractor turrets.
Then I have another question. I never feel in need of unlocking higher mark turrets, and even if I would need it, I would unlock all the MkII line without being able to tell which MkII I should spare and which type I should unlock MkIII-IV.
This leads to my next question...

As for "what's the difference?" Hull bonuses.

Jokes aside: damage multipliers.

I expected a bit more than this short answer from the Turret Master. Just damage multipliers? However they share some types. Can you give me an example of a game where you would unlock high mark of laser and no needler (or the other way around)?

And I play entire games without unlocking any mk2 fleet ships except scouts, and with my only starship unlocks being Spire 1 and the Scout line. That doesn't mean that bombers and missile frigates should start out locked.

Then how do you attack? Only with MkI ships and starships? And you unlock many turrets? Why? High AIP? How many? Which turrets do you prefer unlocking? Why?
I'm curious about the various strategies. Why do you give me short answers?

I don't like this idea.

Of course, it's lame. Me neither, anyway. So why did I posted this question? Because I don't understand why I'm wrong (despite knowing I'm wrong, as I said).

[Kahuna]

Jokes aside: damage multipliers.

I expected a bit more than this short answer from the Turret Master.

Yeah sorry. Although I exceeded myself by posting here at all since I haven't had much extra energy lately.

Just damage multipliers? However they share some types.

Flak and Lightning Turrets don't actually share any damage multipliers.
Flak's damage multipliers (What it counters)
-Close Combat 3 (Zenith Chameleons are powerful and have close combat hull. Also all melee ships (except vampire claws) of which Cutlasses are the most dangerous and actually dangerous)
-Composite 3 (Spire Gravity Drains and -Rippers are quite tanky so this will help you get rid of those.)
-Light 3 (Protect your own bombers by killing those pesky pesky (Bulletproof?) Fighters.)
-Swarmer 3 (Infiltrators which are immune to Force Fields and can thus pop your Command Station and/or Energy Collector if they get too close. Autocannons move very fast and have a damage multiplier vs Structural (Force Fields).)
Flak Turrets role is quite niche but it is a good Turret. Usually more than one.. maybe 3.. of those criterias will have to be met before unlocking additional Flak Turrets is justified.

Lightning's damage multipliers (What it counters)
Check this out: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,16353.0.html "One shotting Bombers 200 at a time". This also works against everything Lightning Turrets have a damage multiplier for. Including those pesky pesky Eye Bots.
-Neutron 3 (Counters Zenith Electric Bombers which are dangerouse thanks to their tankyness and damage multiplier vs structural.)
-Polycrystal 3 (Bombers...)
-Refractive 3 (Eye Bots, Munitions Boosters, EtherJets, Raptors...)
-Ultra Light 3 (Anti Armors, Raiders...)

So it depends on what you need and what the AI sends at you. Both Flak and Lightning Turrets should be combined with Tractor and/or Gravitational Turrets.

Can you give me an example of a game where you would unlock high mark of laser and no needler (or the other way around)?

The main difference between Needler and Laser Turrets are the Artillery/Refractive damage multipliers. Needler coutners Artillery and Laser counters Refractive. Most of the time Needler Turrets have the higher priority since they countery Artillery (Missile Frigates and Plasmasiege Starships) and they cost less Knowledge to unlock. If the AI sends anything with Refractive hull like Eye Bots and Munitions Boosters Laser Turrets are a must. Laser Turrets absolutely obliterate those. Also if you're going to focus on Turrets you're most likely to unlock both since AI Carriers have Heavy hull. If you're playing on high difficulty level you need all the Heavy destroying stuff or the AI Carriers will wreck your face. If you want to beachhead effectively then Needler Turrets have the higher priority because they counter Structural (Force Fields) so you can get rid of those pesky pesky AI Force Fields.

[Radiant Phoenix]

And I play entire games without unlocking any mk2 fleet ships except scouts, and with my only starship unlocks being Spire 1 and the Scout line. That doesn't mean that bombers and missile frigates should start out locked.

Then how do you attack? Only with MkI ships and starships? And you unlock many turrets? Why? High AIP? How many? Which turrets do you prefer unlocking? Why?
I'm curious about the various strategies. Why do you give me short answers?

I attack with my Champion to minimize the possibility of AI Reprisal, and to minimize the economic impact of refleeting, then fortify. Its buddies help defend.

Then, I capture Shard Reactors and send in the Fallen Spire fleet.  >D

Before I got alt champ progress, I used starships for that role. But that was also before reprisal.

I don't like this idea.

Of course, it's lame. Me neither, anyway. So why did I posted this question? Because I don't understand why I'm wrong (despite knowing I'm wrong, as I said).

By having them start out unlocked, diversity of strategies is encouraged.

• Turret strategies were going to unlock them anyway, so they save yet another step of busywork, and maybe a little K.
• People who aren't going for turret strategies are encouraged to try turrets, because they don't cost K.

[kasnavada]

Don't loose your time telling me I'm wrong. I know I am. Tell me why! Tell me how!

I don't think you're wrong. I think you should have a choice of 3 turrets, 3 fleetships, 3 flagships, 3 "support" flagships and everything else should be hacked from the AI (yes, just K-locking them would be really too nice).

And I think that the current start options gives way too much to the player.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Don't loose your time telling me I'm wrong. I know I am. Tell me why! Tell me how!

I don't think you're wrong. I think you should have a choice of 3 turrets, 3 fleetships, 3 flagships, 3 "support" flagships and everything else should be hacked from the AI (yes, just K-locking them would be really too nice).

And I think that the current start options gives way too much to the player.

Can I pick Hunter-Killers as one of my flagships and Wrath Lances as one of my turrets? >D

[kasnavada]

I don't actually see a problem with that  .

If you need 5000 hack point for a 1 hour hack with special features (exo waves, golem appearing and so on) put in. Then 24 billion metal to build one >D.

[Pumpkin]

Wohoo ! This is a thread! This is answers!

Kahuna: Thanks you very much! This is exactly the kind of answers I wished. Thanks a lot!

Radiant Phoenix: Mmmkay, just go play vanilla/no-champion, you'll see what's a true AI War! >D (Everybody has its own style )

Can I pick Hunter-Killers as one of my flagships and Wrath Lances as one of my turrets? >D

Just wait for my next AAR! (ilostit gave my !!ideas!!)


Well, in order for me to go back to the topic.
OK for turrets' differences, thanks again, Kahuna.
However, I'm still dubious about necessity of investing K in turrets. This is a matter of playstyle, but mine doesn't seems very low AIP, now. I use to be a low AIP guy... I'm still a bit, but I make efforts. (I'm even using warheads, thanks to Red.Queen's broken-high auto-AIP AAR!) Is 20 planets and 200 AIP (diff 7/7) on midgame (beginning of lategame) that low? If yes, then I used to be a bedrock-low AIP guy. Else, is that normal that I'm defending (very) fine with no K in turrets? (And no core controllers.) If it is normal, then I think the problem is here: K in turrets is useless on average difficulty+AIP+MF/plots. But maybe I'm not in an average situation... But still... Maybe the "new" (not much newer than me) per-planet turret cap mechanism have broken something.

EDIT:
Other question, maybe a bit unrelated. If someone has a short answer, thanks a lot; else, maybe I'll start another thread about that.
How are hull/bonuses distributed? Is there a logic? I think so, but I don't clearly see it. For example, something that resemble to fighters has good odds to be effective against something that resemble a bomber and weak against something that resemble a frigate. However there is some rare hull types and then I don't clearly see categories. Are there other categories than hunter/bomber/frigate? Or everything can be compared to one of the angle of the base triangle? Or is it just a mess with hull types and bonuses randomly dispatched?
(I know why there is "many" (not that, but still) different hull types; this is not my question.)

[motai]

problem is your measure of 20 planet 7/7. 7/7 is supposed to challenge but as long as you dont screw up its generally winnable. the real standard atm is i think 8 where you hit need for turrets in any game. also low aip makes turrets less and less of a need. but really try 60 system maps and managing with less than 200 aip. baseline map is min 40 systems and even that will challenge you to keep aip that low, especially if you turn on core shield generators. at 270 when the ai jumps to tech level 2 ships is when turrests are the line. if you dont have them you lose benchmark in my experience.

as to hull types my guess is yes most things relate to the main pyramid however you see spot check hulls that are meant to be reverse triangle specifically so the ai can thru you a curveball otherwise the strategy becomes boring and repetitive and range becomes king

[Kahuna]

Wohoo ! This is a thread! This is answers!

Kahuna: Thanks you very much! This is exactly the kind of answers I wished. Thanks a lot!

Specific questions are easier to answer. I'm happy to help.

And I play entire games without unlocking any mk2 fleet ships except scouts, and with my only starship unlocks being Spire 1 and the Scout line. That doesn't mean that bombers and missile frigates should start out locked.

Yep I do that often too.

And I play entire games without unlocking any mk2 fleet ships except scouts, and with my only starship unlocks being Spire 1 and the Scout line. That doesn't mean that bombers and missile frigates should start out locked.

Then how do you attack? Only with MkI ships and starships? And you unlock many turrets? Why? High AIP? How many? Which turrets do you prefer unlocking? Why?

In this case attacks will be surgical strikes that will be done with Assault Transports (I'm not talking about abusing the AT bug. I've never abused it in fact.) and specific Mark I star- and fleet ships inside. By surgical strikes I mean only taking out key targets. By key targets I mean specific AI Command Stations, AIP reducers, specific Raid Engines, specific Tachyon Guardians etc. Everything else will be ignored (including those 120 Hybrids on an adjacent planet, 4k threat, advanced constructors, unnecessary planets etc.). Being able to do this requires Assault Transports for their stealth ability, Cloaker Starships and strong brickwall ("kahuna style") defenses. Which means unlocking a butt load of Turrets. And which Turrets are to be unlocked depends on what you need and what the AI sends at you. This strategy is best combined with Munitions Boosters and Economical Command Stations. Even though you have only Mark I ships those Munitions Boosters will make them hit like trucks. They will also be used to boost Turrets. Economical Command Stations will provide the Energy and Metal to upkeep those massive brickwall defenses. This style allows you to go very high AIP but it's not necessary. By high AIP I mean ~400 which I had when I played against 10 diff Raid Engine/Peacemaker / 10 diff Something/Something. And I tell you on 10 difficulty level 400 AIP is a lot.. an average wave from a Raid Engine had something like 7000 Mark x ships. CPAs had like 40k ships of which a big portion was compressed into Hunter/Killers, hundreds of Mark V Missile Guardians and such.

[Pumpkin]

problem is your measure of 20 planet 7/7. 7/7 is supposed to challenge but as long as you dont screw up its generally winnable. the real standard atm is i think 8 where you hit need for turrets in any game. also low aip makes turrets less and less of a need. but really try 60 system maps and managing with less than 200 aip. baseline map is min 40 systems and even that will challenge you to keep aip that low, especially if you turn on core shield generators. at 270 when the ai jumps to tech level 2 ships is when turrests are the line. if you dont have them you lose benchmark in my experience.

Wo, sorry, I realize my statement was very misleading. My setup is a galaxy with 80 planets; 20 planets is the number I captured so far at the doorstep of the lategame. Sorry for that. Of course, AIP on a 20 planets galaxy is... different, to say the least.

Your point about 7/7 being "winnable (without much effort) if you don't screw up" sounds reasonable. So you think it's normal to have no need of turrets in a vanilla (no big MF/plot) at diff 7/7? Okay, why not. Makes me a little sad, but ok. So advanced turrets become needed at 8/8, AI Tech II? I already won a vanilla 8/8 (galaxy simple/80) but below Tech-II, IIRC. I really need to make 8/8 my personal default and go high-AIP (well, not-low-AIP) more often.
On my current game, The AI is 7/7 and AIP just crossed the Tech-II threshold; I !!hope!! I'll be forced to go advanced turrets.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Kahuna & Radiant Phoenix:
Your low fleet-tech style of play sounds very interesting. At least very different from mine. On a pure topic of taste, I dislike champion and assault transport but I do love high mark raid starships, so this is the way I would deepstrike (and I already do, but then I send the main fleet that can neuter worlds without ion canon or missile GPosts).
However, how does home assaults unfold? I can't imagine beating a homeworld with a MkI fleet or with only champion or assault transport (well, AT maybe; that's why I feel they are imbalanced). Seriously, how do you manage the attack part of the endgame with a defensive playstyle?

[Kahuna]

However, how does home assaults unfold? I can't imagine beating a homeworld with a MkI fleet or with only champion or assault transport (well, AT maybe; that's why I feel they are imbalanced). Seriously, how do you manage the attack part of the endgame with a defensive playstyle?

First I create "highways" to both AIs core worlds and setup beachhead planets as staging grounds. At the same time I do that I build full caps of Lightning and Armored Warheads which will be used to destroy the AI homeworlds. Those Warheads will get rid of the strategic reserve, special forces, core guard posts, force fields and fortresses. I'll just spam the heck out of the AI homeworlds and don't care about AIP anymore. That's one reason why this style requires incredibly strong defenses so you can withstand the punishment that comes from the monstrous AIP increase. Cloaker Starships will ensure the Warheads get to the AI homeworld in one piece.