Author Topic: Why i don't play AI war anymore  (Read 8346 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 09:35:24 am »
Quote from: RCIX
2. Not really, they sounded really hard (in a passive way) and i don't care for really hard :)

Does killing experienced players in under 2 hours sound passive to you? ;)  They aren't nearly that hard any more (particularly if you only enable non-advanced hybrids for one AI player and none for the other), but they do pose an active threat as well.  Currently not nearly as much as intended, due to the high proportion of hybrids that mature into "defender" and "builder" classes, but we'll be addressing that fairly soon.

And, actually, I think I'm pretty similar in the "don't care for really hard"; in my own gaming I want interesting challenges, not necessarily overwhelming ones.  AI War can fairly easily provide an overwhelming challenge on the right settings, and that's good for folks who like that kind of thing, but that's not what I (or you) want.

I think Dazio's recent beta-AAR gives a number of good examples of how the game can be interestingly-hard without jacking the difficulty up to 10 (he played on 7/7 and it was a wild ride).  Of course, turning on every single minor faction is pretty crazy and overwhelming in it's own right.  It's fun reading, anyhow ;)  http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,6741.0.html

Anyway, here's what I suggest: when the 4.0 official comes out, try it again, against 2 diff 7 easy-type AIs with both of them having non-advanced hybrids enabled, and a smattering of minor factions.

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even on higher difficulties though, taking planets quickly and efficently is best acheived by unloading your entire fleet on the planet and just laying waste to everything in one fell swoop...
On the "entire fleet" thing, have you ever run into a situation where you lost planets/stuff to the AI because it attacked you somewhere else while your entire mobile fleet was tied up?  Or:

- Is the time to take the planet too short?
- Can your fleet get anywhere it needs to fast enough to stop the AI?
- Do you get too much warning of what the AI is going to do?
- Are your non-mobile defenses (and/or chokepointing) strong enough that involving your mobile fleet is not necessary?

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the regenerative properties of AI worlds mean fighting upon them to any effect except complete eradication is usually needless,
It is perhaps usually needless now, but one of the points behind the guard posts is to give optional (sometimes mandatory) sub-goals that can be accomplished short of the "take the whole planet", and materially improve your situation on that planet for future attempts to take or traverse it.  But I'm guessing that in your experience the "texture" provided by said guard posts is more like pebbles on a gravel road than boulders on a mountain path?

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and that the more AI worlds you fight at once the greater your overall casualities and you struggle against the reinforcement of multiple worlds at once. the most efficent strategy IS to focus you whole fleet against one world at time.
Yes, the "concentration of force" doctrine is almost inevitable in the absence of fairly draconian mechanics to penalize it, I've thought a lot about that.  And indeed, as you say, the AI's reinforcement mechanics further encourage that concentration.  Ultimately, while I can think of interesting ways to make it more advantageous to (for example) attack two separate planets with half your fleet each instead of attacking one with your whole fleet, most of those don't really have a place within the scope of the game's design.

What it should do, on appropriate settings, is make it really hazardous to not retain uncommitted reserves.  That way even if your ball-of-death will overwhelm the enemy planet, you have the thrill of wondering if you'll actually get away with the maneuver in the overall scheme ;)  No-wave-warnings and Hybrids go a long way towards that, I think, but more needs to be done. 

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microing your various shiptypes on that world is important, but I have rarely felt a need to use slower or sneaky tactics (seiges or cloaking) when I could just gogo gadget 400 zenith polarisers and roll right over anything.
You rather like polarizers, I've noticed ;)  But yea, this is one of those points of tension in the design: one man's interesting-tactical-battle is another's frustrating-micro-management. 

- One of the side-effects of AI War's fairly-awesome auto-targeting logic is that you don't really have to choose targets for most of your ships, you can just move them through the general direction and they will use their weapons in a rather efficient way.  In general, the auto-behavior of most ships is good enough that you may never need to even given them a specific order outside of movement (and in the case of FRD, not even that).  Of course, these are good things, but if the need for micro is reduced to the point that the player doesn't feel they need to do anything, well...  That said, proper difficulty should make sure they have something to do ;)

- There are micro-heavy tactics that can be very effective, like a cloaker starship covering a transport's approach so it can unload some Riots and Sieges so the sieges have the Riot ff's to hide behind.  But those tactics are by no means mandatory unless you're playing a pretty difficult opponent or some other special situation is in play.  But to a large extent many players would get frustrated if they had to constantly apply that level of control in order to succeed.  Another place where players who want to have to do stuff like that should have game-setup-options that provide that level of challenge.

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I'm not criticising in the sense that I still love AI war, but its the strategic map (choosing where to go next), long term economic decisions (jammers? which merc to build/how many to build over time? golems? research choices?) that most hold my attention, not the battles (which, once fleets get over a certain size, become rather simple)
I think that general "ratio" is intended, in that if your strategy is good, you truly know the extent of enemy presence on a planet, and you know your own forces, the only reason you should lose that individual battle is if you made a mistake.  I think many (most?) players enjoy it that way.  But I also hope to offer options where the AI is more likely to surprise either your attacking force or your defenses somewhere else, or both ;)
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Offline superking

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 11:23:22 am »
even on higher difficulties though, taking planets quickly and efficently is best acheived by unloading your entire fleet on the planet and just laying waste to everything in one fell swoop...
On the "entire fleet" thing, have you ever run into a situation where you lost planets/stuff to the AI because it attacked you somewhere else while your entire mobile fleet was tied up?  Or:

- Is the time to take the planet too short?
- Can your fleet get anywhere it needs to fast enough to stop the AI?
- Do you get too much warning of what the AI is going to do?
- Are your non-mobile defenses (and/or chokepointing) strong enough that involving your mobile fleet is not necessary?

I tend to have a rolling chokepoint- that is, the only world that receives waves is the one I most recently captured (and that my fleet is operating from). that way If I get a huge wave, I can easily abort any attack and truck on back with the main fleet to receive it. smaller, >200 AIP waves are dealt with easily enough by turrets.

I also usually leave all my MK I ships in defence and churn out mercenery beam frigates all game; 20 spider turrets on every world more or less completes a very economical defence.

the regenerative properties of AI worlds mean fighting upon them to any effect except complete eradication is usually needless,

It is perhaps usually needless now, but one of the points behind the guard posts is to give optional (sometimes mandatory) sub-goals that can be accomplished short of the "take the whole planet", and materially improve your situation on that planet for future attempts to take or traverse it.  But I'm guessing that in your experience the "texture" provided by said guard posts is more like pebbles on a gravel road than boulders on a mountain path?

when neutering planets, if the planet is not heavily built up I tend to just send 100 of my highest MK Z polarisers with a que to hit each post and tractor beams set as their preffered target (that way they shoot the tractors holding them after they kill each posts, and heavily shielded tractor turrets die superfast). If it is heavily built up/has a fortress I either do the same but with transport micro to get the polarisers around, or brute force with my entire fleet same as I would when conquering a world.

I feel that right now, most the gaurd posts are pebbles on a gravel road- short range posts, missle posts, passive posts, arachnid posts rarely make me adjust my playstyle at all. MRLS posts just need to be concentrated down due their massive DPS. spire posts are annoying, but just the equivalent of the world having a few more FFs, com shield immunitiy posts only alter my playstyle if I want to snipe the command station. warp attack gaurdposts are great, no question  ;D but the other posts could use more character imo

(I think I mentioned elsewhere, but the arachnid gaurdpost would be awesome if it only reinforced with anti-starship arachnids)

- One of the I'm not criticising in the sense that I still love AI war, but its the strategic map (choosing where to go next), long term economic decisions (jammers? which merc to build/how many to build over time? golems? research choices?) that most hold my attention, not the battles (which, once fleets get over a certain size, become rather simple)

I think that general "ratio" is intended, in that if your strategy is good, you truly know the extent of enemy presence on a planet, and you know your own forces, the only reason you should lose that individual battle is if you made a mistake.

I think my problem here is that the AI very rarely suprises me now I understand the rules that govern its scarier behaviors (like ships becoming freed en masse), and that if a planet is a certain amount weaker than the force I send at it, I feel like I likely will win 100%, which in turn makes repeated such attacks as somthing of a grind (easy but time consuming).

But I also hope to offer options where the AI is more likely to surprise either your attacking force or your defenses somewhere else, or both ;)

this sounds highly promising  8) personally, I long for the AI to gain the ability to defensively launch waves against its own planets when under attack... having an unexpected wave mix it up with your attack would be rather interesting (the funnest battles are your ships VS ai ships... most battles tend to be defences vs AI ships or your ships vs AI defences)

You rather like polarizers, I've noticed ;)

on the contrary, I'm in that unhappy position of having found a unit that to my best understanding is so superior to all others that I feel handicapped unless I use it  :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:25:52 am by superking »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 11:40:37 am »
on the contrary, I'm in that unhappy position of having found a unit that to my best understanding is so superior to all others that I feel handicapped unless I use it  :P
I hope you intended to be requesting a nerf with that statement, as you're rather likely to be causing one ;)  I think you've mentioned it before with that intention.  Would halving/quartering the bonus it gets based on shields do the trick, or capping the bonus to the bonus they would get against something with, say, 2000 shields (we did something similar with IREs when people found out they could shred golems in seconds), or something more nuanced?
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Offline superking

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2010, 12:12:51 pm »
well, the main problems I identify with polarisers are

a) they have NO hard counters in the sense that nothing kills them quickly besides fortresses (cruisers do beat them eventually, but it takes time)

b) they counter almost everything- most starships, all hybrids, all turrets, all gaurdposts, speccy gaurd posts, high MK bombers (which have higher shielding), teleport battle stations, melee units, swarm units/neinzul (due to their high rate of fire and instakill on neinzul), enclaves, spacetanks, armourships, shield/munition boosters, grenade launchers, MRLS...

they are fast, cheap, durable at range (500 shields) with a midsize population.

I think you could cut their rate of fire in half (halving dps) and they would still be very useful... capping their damage might also be a good idea (1shotting spacetanks atm)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 01:58:31 pm »
i would imagine any cloaked unit would almost hard counter polarizers - all cloaked units have 0 shields. How do they fare against spaceplanes, raptors, autocannons, etc?
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2010, 02:41:25 pm »
RCIX, perhaps you are just suffering from a temporary burn-out? For most games this is permanent, because most games don't evolve. In AIWars's case, it may be only temporal, because the game is updated all the time. I burned out some months ago, around 3.172, and played some other games. Then some weeks ago I felt the urge again, and AIWar had evolved to 3.189. Same game, but lots of changes, almost a new game - enough to keep me interested for some time.

I don't think it is a question of higher or lower difficulty level, it is more of a 'mission accomplished/failed' feeling, or 'mission over'. In my case it was a combination: I found a way to live through any and almost all cpa's that the ai would send after me (secondary mission accomplished), without solving the general problem of winning the game (primary mission failed). For some time it was very urgent to me (gamer's honour) to solve the problem of death by cpa, and when I felt I had found a working solution, which took me a long time, I took a rest. Mission temporarily over.

Take a break, and come back, when you feel the urge.

You are supposed to kill both ai home planets, what more direction do you need? ;) (No seriously, I do not understand your comment on lack of direction).

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Offline superking

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2010, 02:55:56 pm »
i would imagine any cloaked unit would almost hard counter polarizers - all cloaked units have 0 shields. How do they fare against spaceplanes, raptors, autocannons, etc?

Quote
a) they have NO hard counters in the sense that nothing kills them quickly besides fortresses (cruisers do beat them eventually, but it takes time)

^ this- cloaked units are essentially immune to polarisers, but neither do they do any real damage to them- a full shipcap of raptors would take a LONG time to clean up a shipcap of polarisers, by which time the polarisers have cleaned up and left, or the rest of your fleet has swatted the fragile cloakers

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2010, 03:17:00 pm »
so the issue is more as a combined fleet unit, they are usefuler..
well, for me, I am a big fan of zenith autobombs. I have developed a good deal of number of strategies for their use.. Clearing wormholes, clearing wormholes of tachyons.... blowing up OMDs that happen to be sitting on the wormhole, blowing up forts on the other side of wormholes... (seeing a pattern?) But really, I feel they are useful because they /arent/ just another fleet ship, they have a useful niche. If anyone throws me into a game with some other special unit, ill probably just ignore it (because, well, I dont build fleets. utility ships > fleet ships)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2010, 03:47:14 pm »
RCIX makes some good points actually. I agree on most parts, although I still find the game enjoyable. But I don't play it as much as I could do if it was a little more enticing.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 07:54:47 pm »
All I'll say is this: wait until I've fully had my say with 4.0. ;)

There's some seriously cool stuff coming which will make things more varied and interesting, I think -- and which will penalized blobbing in a few ways.  So far, already the counter-attack guard posts present a partial blobbing penalty, but that's not everything I want to do with it.  I think that the end result is going to feel very, very different.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 08:04:56 pm »
All I'll say is this: wait until I've fully had my say with 4.0. ;)

There's some seriously cool stuff coming which will make things more varied and interesting, I think -- and which will penalized blobbing in a few ways.  So far, already the counter-attack guard posts present a partial blobbing penalty, but that's not everything I want to do with it.  I think that the end result is going to feel very, very different.
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Offline Giegue

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 12:44:35 am »
well, have you tried giving a damn? heh, sorry. that question came to mind when I read this topic, it isn't meant as a serious remark.

well, this happened to me at around the same time AI war released Children of Nienzul. and I was about to quit when I checked this site and lo and behold, an early beta of 4.0 is out!

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 02:36:16 am »
Perhaps it gets repetitive in games that are 10 hr. plus, to fix that would be to have different style of planets

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2010, 03:24:54 am »
I would largely think that tactical combat environments (or, well, as someoneoranother suggested, different systems being more different than x metal and y crystal) would help here - diversity each planet a little bit more, if it is the tedium of planet by planet combat that is the issue.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Why i don't play AI war anymore
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2010, 04:46:38 am »
I have always had my on and offs with AI war (tho I almost daily check in on the forums even if I am not playing that week etc).

RL has its demands, and sometimes I just do other things as well. But if you play a game constantly, you do eventuallt burn out. But I like AI war a lot so I play some good games once in a while and come back for new ones a few weeks later :).

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