Well done game; one question

[chemical_art]

First time poster: I have done 3 games. A 7.0/7.0 generic simple map that was successfully completed despite learning as I went, a 7.7/8.0 realistic hub map that collapsed from too many logistical nightmares, and am currently plowing through a 7.7/8.0 tree map for some attrition warfare.

I was going to post about the logistical nightmare of trying to always use transports to move units between islands of planets, but you have already cleanly fixed that. That is really good: I was not having fun micro-managing so many fronts.

One question from that abandoned second game was that the AI was using the heavy bombers (I forget their name, but they have high health and firepower with a low cap) in the thousands at tech I (I'm guessing it was a sledgehammer random)...in similar numbers to their fighter waves which have an exponentially larger cap for good reason. Is this intentional that a unit with such a low cap is sent in equal numbers to "standard" cap units? It was annoying to never be able to attack because my fleet had to destroy them and rebuild every 30 minutes when I could deal with all other waves of a similar size with just defenses because they were not so powerful per ship.

That is my only concern so far. In my current game the golem-hard waves difficulty is going really well with having a 7.7 advanced hybrid user (although I haven't seen more then one hybrid yet). I may not finish the game simply because the waves are so much weaker from not having a sledge hammer ai (which would make for an good attrition-based tree map). I'll try to step up to mid-range ai's next map.

[keith.lamothe]

Welcome to the forums, glad you're enjoying the game

I was going to post about the logistical nightmare of trying to always use transports to move units between islands of planets, but you have already cleanly fixed that. That is really good: I was not having fun micro-managing so many fronts.

You mean the auto-load command?  Yea, people were asking for something like that for a while.

One question from that abandoned second game was that the AI was using the heavy bombers (I forget their name, but they have high health and firepower with a low cap) in the thousands at tech I (I'm guessing it was a sledgehammer random)...in similar numbers to their fighter waves which have an exponentially larger cap for good reason. Is this intentional that a unit with such a low cap is sent in equal numbers to "standard" cap units?

Do you mean the Zenith Electric Bomber?  The "Heavy Bomber" (generally just called the Bomber) has exactly the same cap as the Fighter.

Anyway, yes, there was a bug where stuff like the Zenith Electric Bombers were not really honoring their ship cap ratios in AI use.  Not that the AI can't have more than the cap, but when it spawns them as reinforcements or in waves it's supposed to adjust the actual amount spawned each time by the ratio of the ship cap.  It wasn't doing that, but in the latest betas it should be (though we currently have an issue with group move, particularly for the AI, in the very latest betas).

That is my only concern so far. In my current game the golem-hard waves difficulty is going really well with having a 7.7 advanced hybrid user (although I haven't seen more then one hybrid yet). I may not finish the game simply because the waves are so much weaker from not having a sledge hammer ai (which would make for an good attrition-based tree map). I'll try to step up to mid-range ai's next map.

You're playing with golems-hard and a 7.6 with advanced hybrids and the difficulty is too low?   Well, some people just more naturally thrash these kinds of games, I think.  But the challenge options are definitely there for you

[chemical_art]

Anyway, yes, there was a bug where stuff like the Zenith Electric Bombers were not really honoring their ship cap ratios in AI use.  Not that the AI can't have more than the cap, but when it spawns them as reinforcements or in waves it's supposed to adjust the actual amount spawned each time by the ratio of the ship cap.  It wasn't doing that, but in the latest betas it should be (though we currently have an issue with group move, particularly for the AI, in the very latest betas).

You are correct, the Zenith Bombers were the culperit. All my counters simply couldn't stop the sheer mass of health and firepower they sent, but if that is fixed I should be able to do a "proper" realistic map at 7.7/8.0.

You're playing with golems-hard and a 7.6 with advanced hybrids and the difficulty is too low?   Well, some people just more naturally thrash these kinds of games, I think.  But the challenge options are definitely there for you

I am playing on a "tree" map so they aren't many fronts which makes things much easier. This whole map is just a large scale test of combat since the fighting is so concentrated. I am fairly strategic in my planet selection so the AIP is relatively low for my tech and I keep my number of fronts down (The tech 3 reseach stations are a nice touch to encourage this). Also, these are only "easy" ai's so I am confident the AI can step up if I ask it to do so.

[Signata]

If you don't find wave pressure challenging enough, you could try Schizophrenic and 2x waves. The first will no longer do concentrated unit attacks, so a balanced defence will be necessary. The second will increase the strength of all waves by twice of what they would otherwise be after multipliers. Adding more random attack minor factions will increase how much attention you need to pay to your entire frontier, rather than just the front.

[Vinraith]

If you don't find wave pressure challenging enough, you could try Schizophrenic and 2x waves. The first will no longer do concentrated unit attacks, so a balanced defence will be necessary. The second will increase the strength of all waves by twice of what they would otherwise be after multipliers.

Actually no, the second causes waves to come twice as often, much like the 1/2x waves causes them to come half as often. Neither impacts the size of the waves. If you want larger waves, giving the AI a resource handicap is the way to accomplish that.

[chemical_art]

Just as a follow up:

My second game had dual sledge hammers (with some roaming nezul), so my current game and any other game with the easy ai's will always feel tame now. I had grown used to having at least one ai wave warning on at all times. I feel the sledgehammer ai straddles the line between easy and medium simply because it delays your own offenses so much which lets that AI timer kick in; it gives the AI more time to reinforce (further delaying planet taking), it also wears down your nerves having to rebuild so often! Sledges make for long games.

Current game is cake is comparison; the armored and arty golem I captured chews through the enemy worlds, and while the enemy golem waves are a headache I am never threatened from other waves, so I suck it up and lose an hour rebuilding and go conquer again for 3 or so hours. For this reason, I may switch maps. This isn't a complaint, I'm happy to have such a complex game that is so erractic. It keeps things fresh.

The logistical command station seems...off in terms of balance. It's tech one version is amazing, half enemy speed and boosted friendly speed makes for some amazing ship highways and delay enemy waves; the fact it only loses a little economy compared to the economy station is chump change compared to those benefits.  The benefits of the tech 1 military and economy are seem lacking compared to the good money/great speed of logistics. But I see no use for the tech 2  logistics, and tech 3 seems a very niche role.

[Wingflier]

I agree the balance is way off for the command station variants. The logistics station is amazing  at level 1 and the military station just isn't worth using in my opinion. If it were up to me I would remove tier 3 military/logistic stations, then give players the choice to unlock 2 tiers instead (there would be no default tier). Then you could actually make the military station useful at tier 1, and there would actually be a drawback of research for the blatantly over powered logistic stations. Also I would like to see military stations with a LOT more health, to more distinctly differentiate their role, but I guess at this point I'm beating a dead horse :p

[Vinraith]

I suspect there will be a significant rebalance of the new command station variants before LotS goes official.

[chemical_art]

Going through my fourth game, analysis is still pending but I thought I would ask now:

Aside from destroying the AI warp gates on an AI planet, is there anything else that needs to be done to prevent an AI planet from sending waves toward an adjacent planet? I have knocked out AI warp gates on a few planets (to help manage fronts) yet waves still keep arriving.

Also, the armored golem rocks overall. If it was not so expensive to maintain I would say it was too strong, but it costs the same as a fleet so it should perform as one.

[Vinraith]

@chemical_art

You have to knock out anything with the characteristic "Warp Gate - Full" to stop waves. That means warp gates, AI Eyes, and a few other (more rare) AI units.

[Red Spot]

Afaik only the gate has that, the rest has "warp gate - reinforce" and wont send waves to your planets (except perhaps be the cause for border hostilities).


@ C-station rebalance
I find myself to not use any of the mk3 variants and basicly just stick to a set of 6 mk2-econ stations and use econ where I can and logistics where ever my fleet might be moving left and right.
Perhaps the buff could be retweaked together with the cost in knowledge, eg: all cost in knowlegde ½-ed(makes it so they will be unlocked more often),
military - perhaps a slight boost in stats,
econ - with the decrease in cost in could be nerfed a bit,
logistic - mayor nerf needed(perhaps remove the slowdown effect for enemies from the mk1-variant).

Or, give both econ and military a boost and make the mk1-versions unlockable as well (forcing you to unlcock one at the start of the game).

Just some of my thought regarding the subject

[keith.lamothe]

Afaik only the gate has that, the rest has "warp gate - reinforce" and wont send waves to your planets (except perhaps be the cause for border hostilities).

AI Eyes and Special Forces Guard Posts both have the wave variant, actually.  I think there are a few others, but those are the most common non-gate gates

[Vinraith]

Afaik only the gate has that, the rest has "warp gate - reinforce" and wont send waves to your planets (except perhaps be the cause for border hostilities).

AI Eyes and Special Forces Guard Posts both have the wave variant, actually.  I think there are a few others, but those are the most common non-gate gates

Spec Forces posts are "reinforce" actually. The only two "common" things with the Warp Gate - Full attribute are gates and eyes. There are, of course, warp gate guardians and some rarer special structures that also have that trait.

[Red Spot]

I stand corrected

[chemical_art]

Thanks for the replys, I think it was an AI eye.



Game is much tougher with the "Realistic" map type as expected, and eventually I lost 20 hours in despite being on the gasp of my "grand fortress" plan working. A couple of notes from the game:

Armored Golems are really useful: High Armor piercing rapid fire attack lets it knock units short of tech 5 out quickly. I will beeline to them aggressively as I did this last game (I had to beeline to bomber III and use a 120 second EMP to knock the fort III guarding it, and it was worth it.)

**I hope other golems are cheaper to operate compared to the armored golem: They have less health and defense and the armored golem was expensive enough just from attrition. If others suffer from similarly expensive attrition I will not use them.

Missile frigates and space planes were almost regulated to defense halfway through: Their health/cost ratio made them too expensive for general attacking. Space planes are fast and attack hard, so they are good for defense just my economy could not support them contiously. Missile frigates were just fragile: I say this despite using shield barriers as my starter ship. Bombers were also regulated to this, but their useful near-immunity to fortress compined with heavy armor made them very handy when combined with shield bearers to strike fortresses with a significant enemy presence as needed. I don't know what to do about the frigates (boost attack and lower bonuses?), but for the starter triangle they consistently seem the weakest, and I always feel I get a break when the AI sends them toward me.

Resistance frigates and fighter/bombers are perfect the way they are right now: Saving and protecting resistance colonies is expensive and having them useful again makes it a worthwhile trade off.

When on defense, the AI preferred to hit armored golems over command stations, making them useful tanks. I doubt this is intentional.

After playing two mediums, I feel "sledge hammer" AI should go with medium as well. The waves are simply brutal because they sap your strength so much. Neither the medium nezul nor medium stealth user could compare with the demoralizing waves the sledger threw+ at me.



Now for my death: Swamped by border agression. The AI built up 3400 tech III ships and swamped my planet with a (1) tech I fortress. The fleet then went on a killing spree and steam rolled my fleet and core defenses despite making stands on two more fortress planets. My conculsion.

Firepower for forts seem off. My fortresses would show a colossal ~1400 firepower, yet they can fall to fleets (not bomber fleets, just general fleets) from 1/3 of their firepower. This makes what turns out to be the death of me: AI border aggression builds up so much on adjacent planets to fortresses that when the AI finally releases it you can have nothing to stop it. I understand border management is important, but being swamped from 3400 tech III because they overestimate the tech I fortress 5 fold when the AIP is at 300(II) in unnerving.

--------


Don't get me wrong, it is not impossible to get around it, just some creativity to fool the AI is in order. I am considering using a combination of station jammers and a particular planet layout to get around it. The planet layout would be like this


    x
  /   \
w      z
  \   /
    y

planet w is enemy. x, y, z are mine.

x has 4 fortresses. y is lightly defended with few turrets. z has a planet jammer. Planet jammers / neutral planets would be used to cover other fronts.

y absorbs most runoff from w's planet aggression, while x absorbs enemy waves. z ensures that when a wave/ aggression hits y the rest of the planets survive. Fleet clears out y from time to time and a new station is rebuilt.


This tactic works on paper, but feels way too micromanaging / inflexible to get around using fortresses. Other ideas abound, but they always form a barrier between an AI planet and a planet with a fort unless their is a unit dumping planet alternative.


----

As of right now fortresses are time bombs for border aggression. Border aggression due to an odd firepower reading. For waves the firepower issue is moot, but since border aggression is from firepower it is very important I feel to improve this. Odd firepower readings also occur for golems and starships, but at least they are mobile so it is rare for AI buildup to occur.




EDIT: Was able to load a save before the event: I was able to bait the AI using the armored golem: The AI focused exclusive on trying to kill it for 5 minutes, allow it and the rest of my fleet to slowly gnaw it to dust. It still left me 40 million resources in the hole and I cannot say I felt like I "won" but rather glitched to temporary victory.


EDIT EDIT: More precisely detailed the group that got me.