Poll

Which role

Normal
8 (29.6%)
Normal + Champion
15 (55.6%)
Champion
3 (11.1%)
Helper
1 (3.7%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?  (Read 6782 times)

Offline Lord Fiddlemeister

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Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« on: May 22, 2013, 11:25:56 am »
Hey all,

after reading some of the discussions about Champions in the thread about Champion options, I was curious as to how most people play Ancient Shadows.
From what I've seen, I think that the people who are content with how Champions work are playing it as normal+champion, while the people complaining about the Champion being to invariable or slow are playing champion only.

In most co-op games that I've played, people automatically default to normal+champion, while I thought that that role was meant to allow solo players to experience the champion as well.

I personally like playing normal+champion a lot, but it seems way too strong. The AI only gets champions as an added difficulty right? Because of this reason, I usually select either normal or champion in co-op games but Champion seems to be a bit boring during nebula missions.

What does everyone else think about this? Am I alone in this or might this be something that could use some rework?

Offline Tridus

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 11:43:42 am »
Well, when I was playing it I was playing normal + champion. I've found that doing that forces my attention to split a lot away from the 'normal' part to micromanage the champion part in nebula scenarios, and as a result it drags the game out. So I've gone back to normal primarily.

A friend of mine tried it in a coop game with me with just champion (he hates managing bases and economies), but didn't find one champion unit alone had enough to do to keep it interesting. Maybe he needed a few of them.

So yeah, at the moment I'm not really using that feature very much at all and think it could use some adjustment.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 12:03:49 pm »
but didn't find one champion unit alone had enough to do to keep it interesting.
FYI, champ-only players can also be given team control of other players' ships, if they want more to work with.
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Offline locklear93

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 12:10:08 pm »
I'm the friend Tridus mentioned above who got bored playing just the champion.  I want to preface any feedback I give by saying that AI War is really not my kind of game, but that I play a lot of other niche games, so I understand and respect that a game can be "not for me."  What might make things more fun for me may be to the detriment of the game for AI War's actual playerbase, so take this with a grain of salt.  Additionally, while I did several different nebula events and unlocked another hull, my demo ran out just as I could've switched, so I only really got used to the human hull.

As Tridus said, playing the champion unit by itself bored me badly.  What I don't enjoy about RTSes is dividing my attention between base management and military strategy.  In a TBS I'm cool with doing both.  In an RTS, one detracts or distracts from the other for me.  The only RTS I've been able to sincerely enjoy is World in Conflict (Dawn of War might've worked if the writing weren't so bad) because it spared me that and let me focus on handling my units.  Controlling a champion in AI War with Tridus managing the greater fleet at large seemed like a good bet, but what I needed wasn't simplicity so much as not bouncing all over.  Playing the champion let me focus, but there was just way too little to do.  Adjusting my ship loadout was absolutely fun. (Though I found the UI to be very player hostile, I greatly enjoyed getting to pick stuff for my champion unit.)  Once I was actually playing, though, and had the options of "click a thing to shoot" and "project a shield sometimes," it didn't take long at all for me to be bored.  I used to raid heal in MMOs, so I can enjoy the "whack-a-mole" of handling multiple incoming targets and deciding which needs to go down first, but when doing that always just amounts to click the priority, my attention isn't held.

In order for playing a champion to the exclusion of anything else to interest me, I need more than one ability.  I need offensive and defensive abilities, both, though it's certainly fair for certain hulls to excel at one and be poor at the other.  I do NOT need the champion units to be more powerful, just less monotonous to play.  This can be accomplished by either a shared cooldown on abilities, or having all abilities spending from the same pool of shadow charge, or both as needed.  This both gives me more variety in what I can do, and gives me tactical decisions to make.  Will I better protect my friend's fleet by throwing up a shield, or by firing a barrage that lets him burn through an incoming wave faster?  In a nebula event, do I speed things up and go on offense, or do I play it safe and defend the friendly AI controlled units?  HOW do I go about this?  Ideally, I'd also be making a choice as to which attack or defense to use.

As I said when I began, AI War's core gameplay isn't for me.  It's entirely possible (probable?) that trying to make any aspect of it appealing to me as a gamer is not worth the potential upset to existing players.  Tridus once suggested massive changes to Disgaea's core gameplay, and the mere idea nearly gave me the vapors.  I respect that my interests may be detrimental to the game as its players love it--but here they are, nonetheless.

Offline Tridus

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 12:16:23 pm »
but didn't find one champion unit alone had enough to do to keep it interesting.
FYI, champ-only players can also be given team control of other players' ships, if they want more to work with.

Not in a nebula, though. I did turn that option on for him, though as a newbie to the game I don't think he did much with my ships.

I'd probably enjoy champions more if there weren't any nebulas and they powered up in the main game instead, though that runs counter to the entire design as it is right now.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 12:50:29 pm »
Reposting here as it is also relvant:

I think to "fix" champions, I think adding more nebula missions, possibly new types (like something that requires going out of the nebula at some point in the mission), balancing rewards, (including the module unlocks may not be compatible with hull unlocks that seems to crop up sometimes), and possibly adding someway to unlock stuff outside of nebulae missions, though possibly in a less "time effecient" manner. Nebula missions should remain the primary way to unlock stuff, but some sort of fallback just in case something goes wrong making nebulae too hard with the unlocks you got or something, or you want to reward helping out normal players more directly would be a great idea.



*fix is in quotes, as I'm not sure if there is something broken, just merely something lacking

Offline Aquohn

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 01:30:08 pm »
I used to play Normal + Champion, but Champions sound much better as an MP feature, except I live in a weird time zone so I've no-one to play with :(. The thing is, Champions still feel like a work in progress. Everything needs a lot more balancing and fine-tuning. And the interface is intensely clunky: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=10886

And am I blind, or is there no way to implement/change Mod Fort loadouts? Stuff like that. And I don't really like the Nemesis Champion Response (The last game I played with Champions was circa v6.011 though; should check how they've changed it). I mostly play Normal now.
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 01:41:47 pm »
I have no friends to play with, so I always play Normal+Champion.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 03:24:16 pm »
I just play on normal because the nemesis response completely demolished me the last time I played normal + champ.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 03:29:33 pm »
I just play on normal because the nemesis response completely demolished me the last time I played normal + champ.
I believe that was fixed in 6.031 :)
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 03:34:35 pm »
Yeah, and I've been working on going completely overkill on turrets so that if I do get attacked and I'm late to defend then I'm not totally helpless...
Maybe I'll give it a shot today. I'll incorporate champions into alpha features and see how that goes.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 03:42:58 pm »
I'll incorporate champions into alpha features and see how that goes.
Some cross-testing is of course good, but don't play with them if you don't want to.  There are plenty of testers who like champs and will do that naturally :)  And there are testers (and players in general) who don't like champs, and that's also fine.  I don't think it's the sort of feature which can have appeal to everyone in the crowd.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 04:22:54 pm »
I may as well see if the changes work out well. :)
I mean I also want the super strong toys and stuff, and it sounds really cool once you do get more options later on. I just never really got to that part for one reason or another. In the same way I'll hopefully do a serious game of fallen spire as well. There's so much stuff in this game, and while the brutal features probably won't appeal to me, the 'different' features probably will.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 10:08:00 pm »
Sometimes play Normal, sometimes Normal + Champion (usually when I'm looking to make things easy for me). I just let my fleet idle and spend resources on a superweapon while doing the nebula scenarios. As noted in the other thread, the one of the main issues with champs is the repetitiveness of the nebula scenarios.

I concur with locklear on at least two matters: Champions definitely need more abilities, and there could stand to be more variation between hulls (see Radiant Phoenix's posts on the subject in other threads for some good ideas).

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Which role do you play as in AI War: Ancient Shadows?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 11:03:51 pm »
I would rather not have more abilities if it means less likely module unlocks. The shield (and the repairfield of the neinzul's) are nifty, but getting too many abilities without some modules as well, and then having no anti-ultraheavy modules later to fight the probable eventual RS with is either a pain in the arse if successful (700M is a heck of a lot of health to whittle down with no bonuses) or a loss the majority of the time.

Or perhaps a XP system liked mentioned in another thread, being able to pick what to unlock would solve that and let more abilities in too.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 11:05:33 pm by Aklyon »