Author Topic: When to take the home worlds (save attached)  (Read 1403 times)

Offline undefind

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« on: October 11, 2015, 03:17:12 AM »
save is attached. skip to bottom if TL;DR and downloaded save.

Currently i am playing on a 8/8 thief/tag teamer game on an "X" style map with over 23 hours in. i have enabled Z-trade ship, champion (using destroyer with only normal modules unlocked. i have the apparently useless mark 1 doom module. cant beat the next nebulae without losing the nebulae. giant zenith machine kills neinzul ships that are fleeing from it, but i cant kill the ship before all the buildings are destroyed.), spirecraft hard 4, and human resistance fighters 4.

AIP is 412, and HaP is 138. processors, terminal, and data centers are deep in enemy territory.

i have unlocked mark 4 for fighters, bombers, spire starships, and leech starships, mark 5 for fighters, armor, tachyon micros and spire starship. mark 1s are raptor, raider, and space plane. mark 2s are missile frigs and Z-Hydras.

turrets are mark 2 needler and mark 5 lightning, missile, and laser.

knowledge is 3K, spare power is almost 400K with 5 matter converters and 2 modular fortresses, and metal production is about 5k/s.

i have 17 planets and a planet at least 3 hops from each home world (1 planet is 2 hops but is neutral with extremely heavy defenses for exo waves that come through with several attritioners, other spirecraft, and nienzul modular fortress. all of which barely works without martyrs, warheads, and carefully placed FF generators).

defenses are more than sufficient for normal waves, (they never get past the half way point on my whipping boy) but the exo waves are becoming increasingly difficult, as normal. i just defeated my 4th or 5th set of exo waves (both at the same time) that synced with CPA and normal waves (the normal waves were of no consequence). the makeup consisted of 6 massive ships with over 9K strength between them. this was the first exo wave that i started seeing a large list of dire ships and golems! total threat was only about 5.6k ships not including the 900 wave.

i have 3 questions:

1. is this a good time to take out the homeworlds? i feel like i dont have enough high mark ships, but if i wait i feel like i won't survive the next set of waves.
2. at what point do the exo waves reach max points? if i am only at say, the halfway point for max exo wave points, it makes taking the homeworlds pretty important at this point.
3. if things in the above questions above are not as dire as i think, should i just let the nebula go down and do another one? i would like to play the champion thing out. i find it fun and interesting but i feel like the drops i got are pretty crappy.

thanks,

-undefind
The hot-key to paste something after copying is not CTRL+"comma"

Offline brokentoy

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2015, 06:46:17 AM »
Well, a different way of thinking about whether you are ready to take on the home worlds is to ask what you would have to gain by doing something else first: what do you have to face, and what is left available on the map that will help with that?

You already have a good number of high-mark fleet-ship unlocks and fabricators. The problem you may have is that a lot of these are quite similar ships - light ships good against other types of light ships. These might be vulnerable to home-world area of effect defences that will just wipe them out en masse before they can make much of a dent in permanent structures.

That said, there doesn't seem to be masses of stuff left that will really change this, so you could probably just go for it, with judicious use of transports, your spirecraft, warheads to take down really nasty posts (Wrath Lanceā€¦) and carefully matching the multipliers to the various hull types of the core guard posts while using the other ships as screens or distractions. Chip away, rebuilding as necessary.

Your AIP is high for where you're at, 412 with 17 planets and no superweapons. I don't understand why you have destroyed the warp gate on some planets that don't neighbour your own, e.g. Vura, Hasooran, Isavo. However, the remaining DCs and CPs are really not hard to take, even the trickiest ones around Asnobuldoor. A loaded Assault Transport will take down a mark-V tachyon sentinel with a single burst, so you can nip in and clear and path in just one or two runs. There is a pretty easy 60+ AIP reduction available to you which should make things all a bit easier.

I don't know exactly how the different exos build, but I imagine the nemesis ones could be close to dangerous for you. The counter-champion ships are fast and have a rude tendency just to march over and through defences. I would consider unlocking some better grav turrets and redeploying some of the stronger force fields you have over nest of them in the path of attack. This, together with the Logistic-2 stations should give your turrets maximum time and stop the waves just beetling direct to your HW CS.

Sorry, can't answer your question about champion nebulae. Somehow I couldn't get into the mini-games, which seemed to take up too much time.

Good luck, say how it goes.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 04:31:56 AM by brokentoy »

Offline undefind

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2015, 07:22:42 AM »
i went ahead and unlocked mk 2 gravs and went for the co processors and 1 data center. the warp gates that you refer to have been destroyed because the ai kept sending exo waves through those gates, making it really hard to make a chokepoint for them. i had to do this because dealing with 2 exo waves back to back from random locations at the start of the game made it real hard to make any progress.

i just captured the sniper mk 5 turret, so i think I'm going to have a go at red and see what happens. the dual raid engines scare me though, plus the reprisal from just attacking the homeworld.
The hot-key to paste something after copying is not CTRL+"comma"

Offline brokentoy

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2015, 08:18:08 AM »
Yes, Red's corner and homeworld look, well, awkward.

Interesting, I didn't know you that could manipulate the spawn and path of exo-waves by destroying remoter Warp Gates. But I think I would still usually prefer to take one extra planet rather than gate-raiding three or four. It gives the benefit of knowledge and resources and serves as a "crumple zone" - it will fall to nastier waves, but slow, damage and disarrange them on the way through.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,237
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2015, 08:38:38 AM »
First, your 3 questions.
1)  It isn't an *impossible* task to take the homeworlds now, but now with what you have *right now*.  Assault Transports and warheads can make it possible, though your main firepower should be Spirecraft.
2)  Spirecraft exowaves increase with both time and AIP.  You're almost 24 hours into the game, so the exowaves are probably near the upper end, but I don't think they're at max yet.
3)  The nebula you are describing is one of the harder ones, especially for where you are.  You can try the other nebulae to see if a different random one will spawn, but if that doesn't work, just lose it and go on.  The Champion at destroyer level is only middling useful.  It's a powerful, and free, unit - but it's basically a good starship unit at this point.  On the otherhand, a Battleship Champion is more like a Hunter/Killer superweapon.  Of course, right now the AI's Nemesis response is also pretty insignificant.  If you do go on, be aware that if you finish the nebulae line, the AI will respond with something like 8 times the response it does now.

General notes:
Looking around, I strong recommend getting all the AIP reducers first, and doing it early.  If you were to clear out the Coprocessors, data centers, and ride the SuperTerminal for about 40-60 net AIP reduction, you'd be at AIP 300 with an AIP floor of 200.
Then, both of the Spire Archives are still around.  They're in inconvenient spots, yes, but try clearing but not capturing both systems, then use your whole fleet to protect one while building heavy defenses and protecting the archive.  Once it is fully drained, abandon the system and move to the other archive to repeat.

Doing both of these would drop 100 AIP and net roughly 30,000 Knowledge.

Then, there is also still an ARS available.  Unless all three ship types are useless, it is worth picking up.

I recommend capturing or hacking more Mk V turrets - They'll help you with your exowave problems.  Getting the Sniper Mk V is an excellent first step - Sniper and Spider are probably the best, with Laser not far behind.

However, looking back.  You split your Knowledge a bit too widely.  You purchased Harvesters Mk II but not Mk III, Logistics Mk II but not Mk III, and Econ Mk II but not Mk III.  Splitting your K like this is usually inefficient.  Harvesters require a large number of resource points before they become worth it, and even then they lack the benefits of the Command Station lines.  For you, upgrading to Mk II Harvesters gained you +800 M/s or so.  But upgrading to Mk III Econ stations would have gotten you +1536 M/s and + 840,000 Energy instead. 
On the other hand, Logistics Stations are, like Military Command Stations, a combat multiplier.  Their useful effect is reducing the speed of enemy units, giving you more time to shoot at them.  Upgrading the Logistics Mk II to Mk III would have gained you +800 M/s, but also about 20% additional reduction in enemy speed.

Personally, I prefer Military command stations, especially Mk III, for dealing with CPAs and Exowaves.  The +100% attack boost applies to all your turrets, units, and forts, instantly doubling their effect.
 
You've invested in starships, but not too heavily.  Mk IV bomber is an excellent choice, almost required, but fighters is less useful.  Harvester Exoshields is something I would recommend *never* getting.

As Brokentoy pointed out, you have a lot of high-cap low-HP fleetships like Raiders and Raptors.  These are weak for the HW assault phase.  On the other hand, you have unlocked the Zenith Devastators somewhere along the line.  These are very high-power forcefield ignoring units that are perfect for taking out AI starships, Core Guardposts, exowaves, and such, especially when the target is under a forcefield (Exowave Shieldbearers, I'm looking at you).  Unlocking Mk II-IV Zevas will be a major boost to your attack power.

Assault Transports actually go well with your high-cap units, as you can fill them up without losing much external firepower.
Warheads are a major force multiplier, although the AIP price is painful.  Fortunately, when you are at the AI Homeworld Assault phase, you don't care too much about AIP, so... go wild.

And Spirecraft.  Spirecraft are superweapons for a reason.  Cap up on Shieldbearers, Martyrs, Penetrators, Implosions, and Siege Towers.  Send them all in with your fleet, and watch the AI melt away.  Spirecraft Transports are a cheap (as in, almost cheating) way to get units close to distant targets (such as the Wrath Lance on Oorisini).  The Martyrs will basically remove the Strategic Reserve from play, the Penetrators can quickly pop the most dangerous targets (CPA or CRE guardposts), while the Implosions and Siege Towers are just general high firepower units.
I you focus on building up your Spirecraft fleet, you could probably take both homeworlds without doing anything else.

Offline undefind

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2015, 08:55:07 AM »
well, i didn't realize how effective mk3 mil-comm were, and the mk3 econ-comm was definitely worth it. thanks for the advice. i ended up making some mk 5 martyrs for the homeworlds and a whole bunch of mk 2-3s for waves. i just tossed a nuke in before the main assault, threw in my transports, followed by all my spirecraft to include shieldbearers for initial survivability. those mark 5 martyrs are insane! took out all the mk 5 ships on the planet leaving the rams and penetrators to roam about all they wanted.

fastest homeworld fight i ever had.
The hot-key to paste something after copying is not CTRL+"comma"

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2015, 10:04:20 AM »
...isn't most everything on ai homeworld immune to nukes, though? Or is that just what I'd assumed.

Offline undefind

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2015, 11:14:28 AM »
the homeworld had about 600+ mark 4 ships. toss in a nuke, some mk 5 martyrs and there isnt anything but a few guard posts left. i really didn't even need to send in my fleet.
The hot-key to paste something after copying is not CTRL+"comma"

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,195
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2015, 05:05:15 PM »
Well, without considering the martyrs in the equation, tossing a nuke in the last of the two homeworlds is something to be considered seriously. What is the cost of such final firework? 50 AIP? What can the AI throw at you within 10 minutes with 50 more AIP? Nothing dire, I bet. And for what benefit? No more fortress and no more MkI-IV ships. Not a big-big advantage, but if you plan to win in one assault, it's "freely" taking out the fortress(es) and the eventual non-MkV scum.

I often use a nuke on my last move. Alongside with some lightning warheads if I can build some. The difference with a martyr is the AIP, and in the last run AIP is no more a thing. Also, I (very) rarely play with spirecrafts and golems. So yeah, fireworks for the last battle is always a good thing to take.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline undefind

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 02:24:59 AM »
Also, I (very) rarely play with spirecrafts and golems.
Why is that? Do you feel they take away some of the strategy in the game. I notice one  comment here  that martyrs was cheese.

 Of all the victories I got so far the Exodian Blade one was the cheesiest. Who needs a fleet since the Blade can clean  planets by itself.

i think the point of those extra goodies is to throw some fun variety in the game. the golems, spirecraft, champions, or whatever else that throws exo waves at you are supposed to make the game funner by adding something extra in the mix. i think those extra things do take some of the strategy out of the game, but if you arent exactly known for your...strategery (hehe, i love G.W.B.) then a little bit of cheese doesnt hurt to make you feel like you know how to beat the game.

concerning "cheese": this is a matter of perspective. some might say golems and other superweapons are cheesy, but what about human resistance fighters or some of the other mods. i wouldnt say that particular mod is cheesy (i have only played that mod on 4/10) but others people might disagree and i would imagine on 10/10 things could get pretty crazy. take the neinzul roaming enclaves, again, i have only played this on 4/10 but, i think that is all i can stand. that mod is super annoying and i can only imagine how bad it is on 10/10 for the player and for the ai. if one was smart enough, you could mitigate the negative effects of such a mod and turn it to your advantage.

anyway, I'm rambling and I'm not sure if i got my point across. suffice it to say anything can be considered cheesy if you enable it on a low enough difficulty. try "cheesing" on a higher difficulty and see how hard it really is!
The hot-key to paste something after copying is not CTRL+"comma"

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,195
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 12:47:32 AM »
Also, I (very) rarely play with spirecrafts and golems.
Why is that? Do you feel they take away some of the strategy in the game. I notice one  comment here  that martyrs was cheese.

 Of all the victories I got so far the Exodian Blade one was the cheesiest. Who needs a fleet since the Blade can clean  planets by itself.

i think the point of those extra goodies is to throw some fun variety in the game. the golems, spirecraft, champions, or whatever else that throws exo waves at you are supposed to make the game funner by adding something extra in the mix. i think those extra things do take some of the strategy out of the game (...)

I agree. For me, the "vanilla" game has no Golems/Spirecrafts/Champions/Fallen-Spire/Exo-Blade. It doesn't mean I dislike those minor factions, just that they slightly shift the core of the game away from strategy and should be used on !!fun!! or thematic games only.
(Remember the "for me".)

Quote
Take the neinzul roaming enclaves, again, i have only played this on 4/10 but, i think that is all i can stand. that mod is super annoying and i can only imagine how bad it is on 10/10 for the player and for the ai.
I strongly disagree on this. I never play roaming enclaves without preservation wardens since then.
Quote
If one was smart enough, you could mitigate the negative effects of such a mod and turn it to your advantage.
Yeah. Maybe experience showed me how to deal with hostile roaming enclaves so now I can pretty easily get the best out of this minor faction. That's why, I think, I find this mod so powerful. Even at 4/10, having 15/20 friendly enclaves after 10 hours ordered to attack independently is extremely powerful.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.
Pumpkin>> Do I need another cure about paranoia on top of overexcitement?
Mal>> We play AI War, enthusiasm and paranoia are both required!

Offline legionof1

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: When to take the home worlds (save attached)
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 12:57:25 AM »
Roaming enclaves are a modifier with a inverse difficulty curve relative to time in game. Early on before effective defense/actual fleet is built, the hostile enclaves are quite threatening. later on the accumulation of friendly enclaves becomes a force that rivals or exceeds your own but the hostiles become akin to bugs on the windshield.

My current game has enclaves on 10/10 and well... they have neutered half the map while i was busy with other things. The only reason i turned them to this level is to make my achievement hunting for 110 conquest be less time consuming and painful since they can speed up the process of neutering and minimize threat culling duties so i can focus on holding off CPA's and keeping a sledgehammer/madbomber from converting me into fine red mist every few minutes as AIP climb into the several hundred range.