What would you like to see in a human-built Golem?

[Captain Jack]

I would agree with Aeson on the subject of humanity's manufacturing ability were it not for the Zenith Trader. 36M resources gets you a Superfortress, which is a Golem in all but name and wormhole travel. If you're crazy there's also the MK V Ion Cannon, which costs an astronomical 259M. These suggest that humanity CAN fund super projects given the proper technology. Also, Golems haven't taken attrition since 7.0x, there's no resource infusions beyond the usual after the reconstruction.  (The Dyson Sphere is another million miles past that though, since a proper Dyson Sphere really would have a star inside).

That a state can purchase a battleship does not imply that that state has the ability to build said battleship. Just about every vessel larger than the human starships that is available to the player was built by a non-human faction, even if the resources for the vessel were provided by humans.

Also, mobility is huge, as far as construction difficulty goes. It's one thing to make a giant, immobile (more or less) ball in space. It's something entirely different to be able to make it move without the stresses tearing it to pieces at reasonable accelerations.

I think I accidentally a sentence there; the point I was (trying to) make with that line is that human remnant clearly has the material capacity to support Golem construction, but not the technological base.

Given the Exile is the basis for the AI, and the fact that AI controlled Golems are almost certainly recent copies and not repaired broken superweapons it's an easy guess that Golem research was a hot topic in both human states. Part of the reason I've been emphasizing the human Golem's singular nature is that it would be the first successful attempt by one of these nations to ape the constructions left behind by the Zenith. It's a super-prototype, basically irreplaceable, last best hope for peace/victory kind of deal.

I don't buy (heh) the line about the Trader building its goods for you, you see it leave and it's your engineers who'll do most of the construction. I think the Traders provide the schematics and certain black boxes and the actual work is undertaken by the faction that bought the item.

So yeah, that's my take at least.

[Nymous]

I think I accidentally a sentence there; the point I was (trying to) make with that line is that human remnant clearly has the material capacity to support Golem construction, but not the technological base.

Given the Exile is the basis for the AI, and the fact that AI controlled Golems are almost certainly recent copies and not repaired broken superweapons it's an easy guess that Golem research was a hot topic in both human states. Part of the reason I've been emphasizing the human Golem's singular nature is that it would be the first successful attempt by one of these nations to ape the constructions left behind by the Zenith. It's a super-prototype, basically irreplaceable, last best hope for peace/victory kind of deal.

I don't buy (heh) the line about the Trader building its goods for you, you see it leave and it's your engineers who'll do most of the construction. I think the Traders provide the schematics and certain black boxes and the actual work is undertaken by the faction that bought the item.

So yeah, that's my take at least.

I wouldn't put much stock in humanity building golems as superweapons. They're big, they're powerful, but not as much as the 3000 mk4 bombers you could build for the same price, or the warheads, or even the starships. We use them because our ability to command ships is limited, but if it wasn't (like the AI or pre-revolt humanity) nobody would bother. That's why, after 800 years of civil war and three weeks of fighting the AI, there are still broken golems lying around.

As for your theory on the trader: no. If they were providing black boxes and schematics, they'd charge us a fee up front. Especially since the stuff can and does get blown. As it is, you can place stuff for free (except for energy costs), and lose it for free, but building costs money. If you're wondering how they get paid, probably the same way we move resources around the galaxy, whatever that is. Besides, I don't think our engineers are actually doing anything mechanical when it comes to building, or anything they do really. It seems like they just send a stream of refined materials to stuff, and nanites within the construct do all the work. Construction is just planting a seed, then feeding it as it grows. That's why an engineer can fix almost anything (reclaimed ships, golems, spirecraft, the exile): because they do almost nothing.

[Pumpkin]

Pumpkin... May I say "broken" without it being a pun about golems? Yap, I'm sorry, Mal. Your Insurgency Virus Payload touching AIP balance is dangerous, and without it there is nothing thematic. Your Corona Legion is thematic: eating planets seems cool; but I fear the game would transform into "eat to the core", easy-conquest play.

Well considering how much work you have to put into building the golem from Wata's post, this seems appropriate. Each of the Golem's do add something to the mid-game where an AI is already vamping up to be pretty dangerous. The Insurgency Battle-Star helps accelerate a hacking happy player, which while good, still is limited by your ability to control ever growing AI responses. The Corona Legion has a humongous drawback of focusing your entire empire to wherever your Corona Legion goes, which can be really bad when it comes to CPA's and the like.

What specific criticism do you have for these ideas that made them appear "too good to be in the game"?

In order to quickly and simply reply, I think there is already too much ridiculously big weapons in AI War. I feel that the Fallen Spire campaign should be the cap of the powergame. I also feel that the Exodian Blade campaign put too much power in a game. I personally enjoy playing without superweapon (golems, spirecraft, FS, ...) and exovawes, and I prefer playing AI War in a more subtle and "assassination" style. I am clearly aware that this is my opinion and that some (at least) people enjoy golems/FS/exowaves, what I called powergame earlier. However, I truly believe that the core philosophy of AI War is strategy, and I wonder if Arcen didn't forget it with DoW (well, nomad planets are very strategic, but the nomad controller and the Exodian Blade are too powergamy to me). I sincerely hope the next expansion will add interesting features for non-superweapon games.

Did I say quickly and simply? Ah, sorry, I'm back to the topic. But this is the background explanation for why I disagree with the Corona Legion idea. Too much power. The problem is not balance: you can always summon exos or anything. Another reproach I would make to this idea is that it has too much impact on the game: the design of AI War seek emergent mechanisms. This one doesn't combine with anything else, it crush everything else. A bit like the Exodian Blade campaign, IMO.

I hope my opinion is clear.
Also remember that this is only my point of view of the game. I'm glad all these super features are options, then every gamer can play the way it want: powergame or assassination style. Arcen did a great job about that.

[Mal]

Pumpkin -I'm glad all these super features are options, then every gamer can play the way it want: powergame or assassination style. Arcen did a great job about that.

Great points Pumpkin. I too also hope they continue to give more options for the early and middle game rather than late game loading like they have. More fleet ships, more AI reactions are welcome.

But to go back to the main point of this thread and to scale things down, how about this:


"Rebellion" Class Battle-Dreadnought
Combining the R&D efforts on observed Zenith, Spire, and Neinzul ships, the "Rebellion" provides a quick response to sudden AI attacks, has a powerful long range artillery for support, and helps fleet logistics.
Requirements - Gather Zenith, Neinzul, and Spire technology fragments, capture AI Hyper-Node power supply in systems at least 3 jumps away from current empire.

Health- 600,000, Regeneration 100

Armor- 200, Hull Ultra-Heavy

Speed- 45,

Shields- 200,000 Range 5,000 Does not Shrink

Weapon 1- Spire-Railgun x2 9,000 Damage, Range 35,000, Reload 8 sec, Knockback, x2 Versus Light, Medium

Weapon 1 - Zenith Laser Array x4 4,000 Damage, Range 15,000, Reload 2 Sec, x3 versus Heavy, Polycrystal

Neinzul Regeneration Shroud - All ships within 5,000 gain 100 Regeneration

Transgeneration Module - If a human command center in the system that the "Rebellion" is in would die, the "Rebellion" suffers 100,000 damage instead and the command center is restored to full health.

[Pumpkin]

"Rebellion" Class Battle-Dreadnought
Combining the R&D efforts on observed Zenith, Spire, and Neinzul ships, the "Rebellion" provides a quick response to sudden AI attacks, has a powerful long range artillery for support, and helps fleet logistics.
Requirements - Gather Zenith, Neinzul, and Spire technology fragments, capture AI Hyper-Node power supply in systems at least 3 jumps away from current empire.

Health- 600,000, Regeneration 100

Armor- 200, Hull Ultra-Heavy

Speed- 45,

Shields- 200,000 Range 5,000 Does not Shrink

Weapon 1- Spire-Railgun x2 9,000 Damage, Range 35,000, Reload 8 sec, Knockback, x2 Versus Light, Medium

Weapon 1 - Zenith Laser Array x4 4,000 Damage, Range 15,000, Reload 2 Sec, x3 versus Heavy, Polycrystal

Neinzul Regeneration Shroud - All ships within 5,000 gain 100 Regeneration

Transgeneration Module - If a human command center in the system that the "Rebellion" is in would die, the "Rebellion" suffers 100,000 damage instead and the command center is restored to full health.

Okay. The Zenith/Spire/Neinzul is new. I have mixed feelings about it. For a part, I think "Great! Awesome! I love it!". On the other hand, I don't see what it brings to the concept. So the design is mixed weapons/tech from all the three big alien races in AI War. For now. (Maybe Arcen will add a new race, one day...) And it just feels like a patchwork without clear identity. Anyway, the idea is fun! Why not.

The "com.stat. shield" ability is new, too. So you said "screw the flagship idea, screw the conquest idea, let's do something new." Well, okay. Don't you feel like building an idea instead of changing each time something appear wrong? Anyway, at least you're full of interesting ideas! So let's consider this one. So the golem has regeneration and sacrifice 1/6 of its health to save a com.stat. Sounds like a regenerator golem but for com.stat. Great. But where does it has its use? When a player loose a com.stat., it's because he's in trouble, or because something (raider/warrbird starship) backstabbed its undefended front. So the Rebellion golem was away, or supporting the main fleet in a big FS-like battle and was overflown by the AI. In the overflown case, it could delay the lose of the system, maybe enough to give time to reinforcement to come and save the day. I think it would be rarely useful. Don't make me wrong: the comstat shielding feels great. Just a little gadget, IMO.

And maybe it deserves a little tweak, because if the comstat is naked (FField down) and under heavy fire rain, the golem would just save it six time in a row and die like in a blink while away from the big battle (but on the same planet). So maybe it would also give a 30sec immunity when regenerating the comstat, or something like that.

However, the regen aura is great! This new and it's not a gadget! Maybe a bit overpowered, but, hey!, we're talking golem-size! This is a very interesting "flagship" ability. While it feels a bit like the regenerator golem (it has the same effect of increasing fleet longevity) but it works differently: the regenerator sacrifice its health but save as much HP, while this one provide health without trading its own but can't save a ship from heavy fire power.

Again, maybe a little tweak: the repair-immune ships are unaffected by the regen aura? Like immortal younglings or self-repairing shield spirecrafts...

On the building topic, I assume you stick to Watashiwa's idea of gathering parts seeded in the galaxy. Then, I feel it can be mantis-posted like that. If Watashiwa is seduced by these ideas, I give my "go".

[Mal]

Hey great suggestions Pumpkin,

I think you are right, an immunity to all damage after taking the killing hit would be awesome. As for the regeneration effect applying to younglings, I think that would be a lot of fun as well, you would have to group move them, but otherwise yeah, that works out amazingly.

I think 30 seconds might be a bit much though...or if it did give 30 seconds the ability could only trigger once every 5 minutes or something like that.

Discussing the weaponry on this thing, I think the long range/medium range combo is pretty strong for leading a fight but does not make it something you would send alone like a Golem. This thing is pretty much a top end star-ship with great guns and group defenses.

What do you think Watashiwa?

[Captain Jack]

I think that I've not been paying enough attention to this thread. 

Just quickly scanning, I think your idea sounds like a bit of a stretch for humans working with alien tech, but what do you think of the AI having something like that? We've seen AI research into hybrids before, and with a bit of working it could make for a killer Mothership alt.

Aeson, I still disagree with you for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Give me a bit of time to get my thoughts straight and I'll have something.

[Pumpkin]

What do you think Watashiwa?

I think that I've not been paying enough attention to this thread. 

Summoning is complete.

Sorry about that. It just remembered me of the acolytes in Warcraft III.
Nothing interesting to add, anyway. Sorry.

[TIE Viper]

Clearly, the first human built golem needs to be the Pancake Golem. 

[Pumpkin]

Clearly, the first human built golem needs to be the Pancake Golem. 

We already have the Nomad Bacon Golem. Why not?

[Draco18s]

When do we get a scrambled eggs golem?

[Radiant Phoenix]

I definitely like the mobile command station best of those suggested so far.

I can actually see two implementations:

• "Litterer": It's basically just a mobile source of supply, that maybe also eats salvage to stop reprisal. You use it to beachhead deep systems, or clusters thereof. If it leaves, things are left behind.
• "Worldship": The things it builds are "attached" to it, and dragged along. At this point, it's basically an (irreplaceable) champion on zenith steroids[1], because it's hauling around a full cap of every kind of turret, and a full set of construction buildings, including a missile silo.

[1]: Because elephant steroids are too small