What would you like to see in a human-built Golem?

[Captain Jack]

Hi all, title as topic. I'm working on a Mantis suggestion for a new superweapon, a Golem built by humans, but I don't want it to fill the same niche as any of the current superweapons. This isn't a way to get an extra Botnet Golem, and I'm looking to avoid modules--we've got Champions for that.

I came up with two ideas of my own. The first is a sort of mobile Command Station. It provides supply, scavenging and a speed boost, while also granting an attack buff. Don't know whether it should also have scouting and tachyon, because it's not a replacement for a scout vessel, even if it is a superior support unit.

The other is to make it a Mk. IV Heavy Beam Turret with thrusters and even more health/armor. The problem is that I'm not sure if that justifies Golem status, much less multimillion units of metal.

(Bit more explanation, the idea is that the human Golem is an AIP-less way to get a superweapon, but it's not *cheap* for all that. It needs to be built in parts, and the total cost is more than rebuilding a broken Golem, but less than the Exodian Blade, since it's being made from scratch. Only one part can be built on a planet, and they're immobile until the pieces are put together. You need a transport with nothing else inside to get a piece to the build site. Oh and you can only ever get 1.)

So with that I throw the question out there: What do you think a human designed Golem would be capable of? I'm looking for ideas here.

[Nymous]

I don't think you're going to get an AIP-less superweapon. It's sort of contradictory to the whole concept of AI progress: You get powerful, the AI is supposed to notice. And even if you build it yourself, skipping the AIP from destroying a command station to take a world, it'll still cost knowledge to get. In fact, it'll probably still cost the same AIP (or more) indirectly, since you'll have to take a world, or possibly 2, to get the knowledge to pay for it, or the hacking points to get the knowledge. And then you have to build it, which just sounds complicated. We're better off just stealing one.

[Mal]

A human golem is a neat idea. The Mobile Command Station is a neat idea as well and is not really fulfilled too much by other stuff, mostly mobile space dock and mobile builder along with spire city kinda do what you suggest, but nothing does them all together.

To build onto your idea----


Broken Command-Net Golem 5M Metal 50,000 Energy Ship Cap - 1
A broken remnant of the human civil-war that was an attempt to stop the AI. Too bad the AI got ahold of it first. Starting to rebuild the Command-Net Golem will cause Special Forces to seek and attack this location to destroy it. Warning: This causes the AIP to increase by +10 for every 1 minute you do not complete building the Command-Net. This can cause a game collapse with harder levels of AI with large special forces and Hunter plot enabled.


Command-Net Golem 5M Metal 50,000 Energy Ship Cap - 1
This human redesign on Spire technology allows vast enhancements to a Planet and to ships far out in the galaxy.
Health - 2.5 M, Armor 100, Attack- 500 x 25 , Ammo: Railgun, Range: 10,000 , Speed: 25, Effects: Translocation, Tachyon Coverage 5k, Boosts ships within 10,000 for +50% damage and 50% speed increase, All Ships within 5000 gain Teleport, Any Ships sent to the System the Command-Net golem is in from Galaxy view,  instantly teleport to it but are stunned for 3 seconds.

[Captain Jack]

I don't think you're going to get an AIP-less superweapon. It's sort of contradictory to the whole concept of AI progress: You get powerful, the AI is supposed to notice. And even if you build it yourself, skipping the AIP from destroying a command station to take a world, it'll still cost knowledge to get. In fact, it'll probably still cost the same AIP (or more) indirectly, since you'll have to take a world, or possibly 2, to get the knowledge to pay for it, or the hacking points to get the knowledge. And then you have to build it, which just sounds complicated. We're better off just stealing one.

Well, it's not AIP free exactly. You need at least four planets that are not your homeworld to build it. The idea is that it's a superweapon you don't have to target, it'll be available as long as you're willing to pay the resources and risk losing it.

There should be some kind of AI preemption now that I think about it. Hm.

[Pumpkin]

First and foremost, I love new ideas. So you want to improve this one and seek for new ideas. I think there is two points to polish: what and how. What is this golem capable of? How to get it? (AIP/reprisal, metal/energy, capture/building, ...)

What does it do?

The other is to make it a Mk. IV Heavy Beam Turret with thrusters and even more health/armor. The problem is that I'm not sure if that justifies Golem status, much less multimillion units of metal.

IMO: not interesting. As long as there is only one support golem (the regenerator one), adding a new non-brutal golem really pleases me. A flagship-golem? Works for me! A golem with a photon lance? Why not, but we've got the exodian blade (not a regular broken golem, I know, but...) and tons of brutal BGolems. This flag-golem is a great idea.

is
Don't know whether it should also have scouting and tachyon, because it's not a replacement for a scout vessel, even if it is a superior support unit.

All golems have the scout ability. I see no reason why this one wouldn't.

Command-Net Golem : 5M Metal 50,000 Energy Ship Cap - 1
Health - 2.5 M, Armor 100, Attack- 500 x 25 , Ammo: Railgun, Range: 10,000 , Speed: 25, Effects: Translocation, Tachyon Coverage 5k, Boosts ships within 10,000 for +50% damage and 50% speed increase

Not talking about pure numbers but rather number ranges and abilities, sounds good to me. I would say less speed, less attack and more heal, but that's petty tweaking.

All Ships within 5000 gain Teleport, Any Ships sent to the System the Command-Net golem is in from Galaxy view,  instantly teleport to it but are stunned for 3 seconds.

I disagree with this. Too weird, hard to balance, and I imagine way too complex to code. And what about a ship moving/teleporting from outside to inside the effect range? Or the opposite? And what about the speed boost? Too messy, too useless. And the "reverse warpgate effect"? Wat? TL;DR: I'm not fan.

How to get it?

Before digging deeper, consider this: how about a regular flagship broken golem? You can find some by enabling the regular Broken Golem MF and get the regular exowaves if you enable the hard version. Clean, neat, fun, new, easy-to-code... what else?

But you want a human golem? You fool, you've got all you wanted but you wana more shiny new tweaky lore? Ah, I know, me too... So there is a Zenith-Human connection? Impossible. Zenith are long gone and the broken golems are just empty shells reactivated by humans. It's a relic from the Human civil war? Great! Something new, something too few exploited in the lore. But it's not a golem. Call it Super Giant Untra Command Station if you want to, but it's not a golem.

Then we can work for a new way to get it (because it's not a golem so it doesn't fit in the regular Broken Golem Minor Faction).

(...) AIP-less way to get a superweapon (...) It needs to be built in parts (...) Only one part can be built on a planet, and they're immobile until the pieces are put together. You need a transport with nothing else inside to get a piece to the build site. Oh and you can only ever get 1.

AIP is a cost. Metal/energy is a cost. Knowledge is a cost. HaP, also. The MkIV Heavy Beam Canon is a kind of superweapon that require barely only Knowledge. I disagree with Nymous: superweapon/AIP is not mandatory. "AIP-less way to get a superweapon": OK for me.

Only one part can be built on a planet? So in my low-AIP game with "only" five planets captured, I can already build one without taking more planets... It's not a gameplay constraint. Immobile and need a special transport? Too micro, too annoying, nothing fun doing so: I have to disagree. The idea to assemble it is great. Just building it apart and assembling it is not. Maybe recovering parts like Fallen Spire's shards... that way would be fun but not new. I don't know, I have no idea right now. (And I'm sorry to disagree without bringing an idea to replace it.)

TL;DR

Good idea, but keep it simple. And I see two simple ways:
- regular "flagship" broken golem;
- human superweapon (cost knowledge/metal/energy like HBC or modular fortress)

[Kahuna]

Some ideas:
-Modular Golem (HBC Mark V as the main weapon (uses a star as a power source (Dyson Sphere 2.0?)))
-Teleporter (Battlestation?) Golem
-Stealth/Raider Golem
-Transporter Golem (Assault Transport in steroids)

[Aeson]

I can't say I particularly care for the idea of human golems. Golems are supposed to be these enormous things well beyond the construction capabilities of humanity, dwarfing Spirecraft and possibly Imperial Spire ships, so large that they require near-constant infusions of resources to maintain, and Spirecraft and Imperial Spire ships are themselves at least as large as humanity's starships. I also don't really see what role it would fill that isn't already covered by the existing superweapons.

(uses a star as a power source (Dyson Sphere 2.0?))

I have a suspicion that a vessel of the scale this implies is well beyond the capabilities of humanity in the AI War universe, at least at the time the game is set at. The actual Zenith Dyson Sphere is implied to be significantly larger than any of the other golems in the game, and I'd tend to suspect that the majority of the existing golems are no larger than perhaps a small planet (perhaps something the size of the Moon), if that. Spirecraft almost certainly are not significantly larger than the asteroids they're made from, and they're already at least as large as just about anything mobile that the humans of AI War can build with their own technology. To jump from building ships roughly the size of a large asteroid to building ships large enough to contain a star is an incredible jump in capability; beyond that, such a vessel would require enormous quantities of resources to construct, to the point that I rather suspect it'd be impractical while also fighting the AI (I'm not speaking about this from a game mechanics perspective, but from the perspective of realism within the game universe).

At least, assuming that by "uses a star as a power source," you mean that the star is effectively an on-board power source, rather than the far more practical "I have a bunch of solar panels that can provide some of the power requirements of my ship while I'm sufficiently close to a star," the magical energy teleportation solution of "I have an enormous grid of energy collectors beaming power directly from one or more stars to my ship" (which might be justifiable, depending on whether you consider AI War's energy resource to represent fuel production and distribution or a magic power transmission network), or "I have a power source which is like a star in terms of total output that fits within (however big a ship this thing is supposed to be)," though that last possibility doesn't really follow from the statement "uses a star as a power source."

(Yes, I know that the Mk V Heavy Beam Turret includes a line about how it's based on scraps of data from a mad scientist's star-powered superweapon idea, but we have no idea how much of that was within the realm of feasibility or possibility for humanity in the AI War universe at its level of technology at the time that the game is set.)

Modular Golem
Teleporter (Battlestation?) Golem

The Modular Golem sounds like it's much the same thing as the heavier player-usable Imperial Spire ships or champions. I'm not sure how the Teleporter Golem is supposed to distinguish itself from the existing golems except by its inconvenient-to-use-with-a-fleet mode of travel.

Transporter Golem (Assault Transport in steroids)

By which you mean what, exactly? Spirecraft Jumpship with assault transport capacity and abilities?

[Pumpkin]

So, no mantis post? Don't let these ideas spoil; go ahead, polish and post it.

[Mal]

So, no mantis post? Don't let these ideas spoil; go ahead, polish and post it.

I don't really think the idea is polished enough or warranted enough to post a mantis for. Maybe if there were a more fleshed out idea of what was desired was here...but it's not, so I would not bring any attention to it.

[Pumpkin]

So, no mantis post? Don't let these ideas spoil; go ahead, polish and post it.

I don't really think the idea is polished enough or warranted enough to post a mantis for. Maybe if there were a more fleshed out idea of what was desired was here...but it's not, so I would not bring any attention to it.

Okay. Then what about that?

BattleLord Golem
This Zenith being used to bring galaxies at war and lead millions of ships armies.
A regular golem added the the normal Minor Faction (Easy/Moderate/Hard).

5M Metal 50,000 Energy
Health - 2.5 M, Armor 100, Attack- 500 x 25 , Ammo: Railgun, Range: 10,000 , Speed: 25, Effects: Translocation, Tachyon Coverage 5k, Boosts ships within 10,000 for +50% damage and 50% speed increase

+ gather scout intel (like all golems)
+ maybe planetary covering boosts (why "just" 10,000? It's a golem!)
+/- range/power/health/... tweak

I'm not sure of the name. Here are some other ideas.
- [Broken] Battle Golem
- [Broken] Flagship Golem
- [Broken] Flag Golem
- [Broken] Commander Golem

[Captain Jack]

So, no mantis post? Don't let these ideas spoil; go ahead, polish and post it.

Not yet, want to hammer out a firmer idea of how this should work. Some neat points have been brought up that I want to address, and then I have a suggestion that could be fun. Or FUN in the Dwarf Fortress sense.

Starting with you, the reason I don't want a flagship broken Golem is that the Zenith are not humans. Having a non-Zenithian Broken Golem gets away from the entire point of broken Golems, which is that they're barely understood weapons from a long lost alien race. They work differently than human ships, reflecting their alien nature. I want a human supership that uses the mechanics associated with human ships. I also don't want to copy how other superweapons are acquired.

Aeson brings up an interesting point that Golems have a role in the game's lore as well as mechanics. But I'd like to point at the Golems that are in TLF despite no evidence of a Zenith presence in that part of the galaxy, and that Hydral Golems are nothing like their AI War counterparts. Since there are Zenith remnants in AI War, what do you think humans would call their super ship? I'd say that "Golem" isn't a Zenithian term but instead is just what you call a ship that size. Equally tellingly, the Exodian Blade shows up when you do a broad search for Golems.

I would agree with Aegon on the subject of humanity's manufacturing ability were it not for the Zenith Trader. 36M resources gets you a Superfortress, which is a Golem in all but name and wormhole travel. If you're crazy there's also the MK V Ion Cannon, which costs an astronomical 259M. These suggest that humanity CAN fund super projects given the proper technology. Also, Golems haven't taken attrition since 7.0x, there's no resource infusions beyond the usual after the reconstruction.  (The Dyson Sphere is another million miles past that though, since a proper Dyson Sphere really would have a star inside).

So far I've got planetwide flagship functionality, cloaking/raiding golem, or providing supply. I actually would like a larger teleporter ship, but not in Golem form. Modular Golems, while a fun idea, come too close to the Champion to really stand out. The Command-Net Golem suggested earlier has a caveat and power I don't think would play nicely. Of these I'm liking the superflagship, but am torn between wanting the HBC IV as its main weapon or high level lightning turrets.

I mentioned way at the start of this that I had a neat idea. Basically you'd start with a golem part and get a journal entry saying it's one of several and the rest were lost or taken by the AI. They're seeded on the map in containers like Distribution Nodes, and need to be Transported back to the homeworld. You can build SOME of the parts to cover for ones that might be too far or too heavily defended. The last part you need is an energy source and can't be built until you have the other parts. You can pay for it with knowledge at a hefty cost (5k?), or you can acquire it in other ways. I figure either it could be purchasable from the Trader, or you could make one by choosing to give up a ZPG. (Alternatively, maybe you could find one in an Astro Train, thus giving a reason to include ATs).

The FUN comes when you go to install it. We know we can catch the AIs attention without increasing how much of a threat it considers you (FS and with hacking). The Golem powersource is a very shiny thing and shows up on all sorts of sensors until it's shielded on your Golem. Installation takes time (5-10 min) and can't be sped up. So you get an exo-hacking response right on your doorstep until the AI loses interest. The response actually lasts longer than the installation, so you get to use your new toy to mop up the last of it.

As an aside, the human Golem raises AIP when it's destroyed. 100 points like the home command center, and the Shark plots go off as well. It's a major victory for the AI after all.

Any interest? Or comments?

[Mal]

The Golem that you build is a cool concept, I especially would like it if it gave you a reason to include Astro Trains.

I would like to see some more specifics on what the Golem would do rather than how to build it ( although that intense process of building must mean it is pretty strong).

To help throw some specifics onto the idea you proposed Watashiwa:

Insurgency Battle-Star
A true relic of the civil war, the Insurgency Battle-Star is a lost weapon that was meant to kill the AI outright. Although its potential will never be fully realized, its unique abilities can greatly haywire an AI's activities.

Health- 2.5 Million

Armor- 5,000

Shields- 1 Million, 1,000 Range, does not shrink with damage

Speed- 25

Attack 1 - Implosive Artillery Railguns x1,Reload- 1 Sec,  1% implosion, 30,000 Range

Attack 2- Octa-Laser Array x3,Reload- 3 Sec, 10,000 damage, 10,000 Range, 3x versus Heavy, Artillery

Radar Dampening - 10,000 Range

EMP Net- Acts as a constant EMP effect to all within 5,000 range

Insurgency Virus Payload- Each AI command post you kill with Insurgency Battle-Star reduces AIP by 10. Additionally, you gain +10 HAP. ( You still gain AIP from killing the Command Post).

Critical Command - Upon death of the Insurgency Battle-Star, the AI gains +100 AIP

Corona Legion
The Corona Legion is the absolute pinnacle of human experimental design and weapon application. It harvests the power of all of our star systems into it's simplexed astral engine. Its weapon systems will grow with each system we take. However, our power systems will be completely devoted to this vessel.

Health- 20 Million

Armor- Implosion Resistance 50%, 5,000 Armor

Speed- 20

Attack 1- Astral Engine x1 , Range - 5,000, Reload- 1 Sec, 100,000 damage * Number of Systems Controlled, x3 versus Command-Grade

Attack 2- Nova Warhead x1, Range- 35,000, Reload- 10 Sec, Area- 5,000, 10,000 damage * Number of Systems Controlled, x3 versus Medium

Total Demand- You no longer receive energy from captured planets.

Corona Engine- When you destroy an AI Command Post, you receive an additional Corona Legion at the system. However, it is immobile and you cannot build any structures at the system.

Trans-dimensional Explosion- When the first Corona Legion is scrapped or destroyed, all planets that have a Corona Legion at them explode as if a Nuke went off.

[Pumpkin]

FUN in the Dwarf Fortress sense.

Then it's spelled !!fun!! (or !!FUN!! if you're a capslock aficionado).

Starting with you, the reason I don't want a flagship broken Golem is that the Zenith are not humans. Having a non-Zenithian Broken Golem gets away from the entire point of broken Golems, which is that they're barely understood weapons from a long lost alien race. They work differently than human ships, reflecting their alien nature. I want a human supership that uses the mechanics associated with human ships. I also don't want to copy how other superweapons are acquired.

Ok, then I'll post the simple Zenith Flagship Golem apart.
May I?

I mentioned way at the start of this that I had a neat idea. Basically you'd start with a golem part and get a journal entry saying it's one of several and the rest were lost or taken by the AI. They're seeded on the map in containers like Distribution Nodes, and need to be Transported back to the homeworld. You can build SOME of the parts to cover for ones that might be too far or too heavily defended. The last part you need is an energy source and can't be built until you have the other parts. You can pay for it with knowledge at a hefty cost (5k?), or you can acquire it in other ways. I figure either it could be purchasable from the Trader, or you could make one by choosing to give up a ZPG. (Alternatively, maybe you could find one in an Astro Train, thus giving a reason to include ATs).

The FUN comes when you go to install it. We know we can catch the AIs attention without increasing how much of a threat it considers you (FS and with hacking). The Golem powersource is a very shiny thing and shows up on all sorts of sensors until it's shielded on your Golem. Installation takes time (5-10 min) and can't be sped up. So you get an exo-hacking response right on your doorstep until the AI loses interest. The response actually lasts longer than the installation, so you get to use your new toy to mop up the last of it.

As an aside, the human Golem raises AIP when it's destroyed. 100 points like the home command center, and the Shark plots go off as well. It's a major victory for the AI after all.

That's damn good! Clear, fun, new... Good job! Now I feel the "how to obtain" part is done and ready for mantis post.
I'm less interested in the Astro Train part because I believe that AT deserve a true, deep revamp.

Now it needs an as fun and as clear idea about "what does it do?"
Aaaand, Mal's post, while clear, is... May I say "broken" without it being a pun about golems? Yap, I'm sorry, Mal. Your Insurgency Virus Payload touching AIP balance is dangerous, and without it there is nothing thematic. Your Corona Legion is thematic: eating planets seems cool; but I fear the game would transform into "eat to the core", easy-conquest play.

[Mal]

Pumpkin... May I say "broken" without it being a pun about golems? Yap, I'm sorry, Mal. Your Insurgency Virus Payload touching AIP balance is dangerous, and without it there is nothing thematic. Your Corona Legion is thematic: eating planets seems cool; but I fear the game would transform into "eat to the core", easy-conquest play.

Well considering how much work you have to put into building the golem from Wata's post, this seems appropriate. Each of the Golem's do add something to the mid-game where an AI is already vamping up to be pretty dangerous. The Insurgency Battle-Star helps accelerate a hacking happy player, which while good, still is limited by your ability to control ever growing AI responses. The Corona Legion has a humongous drawback of focusing your entire empire to wherever your Corona Legion goes, which can be really bad when it comes to CPA's and the like.

What specific criticism do you have for these ideas that made them appear "too good to be in the game"?

[Aeson]

I would agree with Aeson on the subject of humanity's manufacturing ability were it not for the Zenith Trader. 36M resources gets you a Superfortress, which is a Golem in all but name and wormhole travel. If you're crazy there's also the MK V Ion Cannon, which costs an astronomical 259M. These suggest that humanity CAN fund super projects given the proper technology. Also, Golems haven't taken attrition since 7.0x, there's no resource infusions beyond the usual after the reconstruction.  (The Dyson Sphere is another million miles past that though, since a proper Dyson Sphere really would have a star inside).

That a state can purchase a battleship does not imply that that state has the ability to build said battleship. Just about every vessel larger than the human starships that is available to the player was built by a non-human faction, even if the resources for the vessel were provided by humans.

Also, mobility is huge, as far as construction difficulty goes. It's one thing to make a giant, immobile (more or less) ball in space. It's something entirely different to be able to make it move without the stresses tearing it to pieces at reasonable accelerations.