What's with the new Guard Posts

[Space Cowboy]

I am still working on level 7 with Fleet Command.  It appears many of the recent changes are in response to enhancing the other AI products with their myriad units and plot lines.  Please keep in mind that some of us may just enjoy Fleet Command for a long while and that changes to the product should consider impacts to the basic game.  As others have pointed out and as I have found in Fleet Command, it is much more "grindy" with the changes to the Guard Posts.  Sure, it is possible to get through it, but it is certainly not as enjoyable for the basic game.  I actually considered not playing Fleet Command with the recent Guard Post changes after nearly two years of enjoying the challenges of the basic game.  So, just a request, don't forget us little people still enjoying Fleet Command when you get all the feedback from the AI top tier players.  Make sure Fleet Command is still enjoyable, yet challenging, for the entry point folks. 

[Histidine]

In addition to just fixing the mutual counter thing, you could throw a bone to the newbs by reintroducing the passive guard post (just acts as a reinforcement point). Seeding proportion vs. "proper" guard posts changes with difficulty.

[TechSY730]

Just reposting here because this thread's main topic is about this:

I do still think the guard posts needs some tweaking. My two biggest complaints right now are:
1. 6x multipliers, too high. 4x sounds more reasonable, even if base DPS has to go up in return
2. Many of them counter their counter (like missile guard posts have artillery hull type and 6x vs polycrystal, but bombers, the ones with a bonus to artillery, have polycrystal hulls). As the hull types seem to have a good assignment thematically, I think the bonuses of the guard posts need to be shifted somewhat instead.

[Hearteater]

Just on the x6 vs x4 multipliers.  The lower the multiplier, the better the GP against everything.  So basically, the less counter-ships available.  I think when point #2 is addressed things will play out much better.  If DPS is a problem, I'd say lower the raw damage of the GPs and leave the mutlipliers.  That actually is better for players.

[keith.lamothe]

I am still working on level 7 with Fleet Command.  It appears many of the recent changes are in response to enhancing the other AI products with their myriad units and plot lines.  Please keep in mind that some of us may just enjoy Fleet Command for a long while and that changes to the product should consider impacts to the basic game.  As others have pointed out and as I have found in Fleet Command, it is much more "grindy" with the changes to the Guard Posts.  Sure, it is possible to get through it, but it is certainly not as enjoyable for the basic game.  I actually considered not playing Fleet Command with the recent Guard Post changes after nearly two years of enjoying the challenges of the basic game.  So, just a request, don't forget us little people still enjoying Fleet Command when you get all the feedback from the AI top tier players.  Make sure Fleet Command is still enjoyable, yet challenging, for the entry point folks.

Welcome to the forums   And thank you for bringing the topic up, I think it is important.

But my question is this: what necessary tools are you lacking for not having the expansions?  From what I'm hearing the base game units are quite sufficient for dealing with the new guard posts. 

Please do note also that everything since 6.0 is a beta, so balance is certainly ongoing (for instance fixing it so the posts don't counter their counter) and may not be in a good place in every release.  Though I think in general it does fairly well.

[keith.lamothe]

FYI, just in for the next version (I'm guessing Tuesday morning for getting that out, we'll see) :

* To fix a problem in recent versions where some guard posts were countering their triangle counters:
** Needler Guard Post hull type from Light => Medium (so now countered by fighters, which they do not counter).
** MLRS Guard Post hull type from Medium => Heavy (so now countered by bombers, which they do not counter).
** Missile Guard Post hull type from Artillery => Light (so now countered by missile frigates, which they do not counter).
** Laser Guard Post hull type from Heavy => Neutron (so now countered by missile frigates, which they do not counter).

* New maps will now seed quantities of guard posts more appropriate to their planet's internal "AIStrengthLevel" (something that's been part of mapgen since 2009, but its factor into guard post count was obscured on any diff >= 7 for the most part) and the AI's difficulty level.
** This will generally result in a significantly smaller galactic population of guard posts on diff 7 and thereabouts, which should help lessen the blow of the recent guard post buffs on the folks who don't intentionally play the really punishing difficulty levels.

[Faulty Logic]

I guess it's more a question of whether that 9000 K could buy you something equally effective elsewehre.  Examples of that?

Raids only cost 8000 to get to mkIII (IV). You could unlock the entire zenith and spire lines for the same k cost. Riots only cost 1000 k more. I think raids need a buff, in fact, I never unlock them.

Fair enough that that's your takeaway from what you see in them, but my question in response is whether your not using it is because:

1) they're actually not worth it

2) or you haven't considered the kind of usage Hearteater is getting out of them (effectively supply his entire offense on a pretty high-difficulty game), where it seems pretty conclusive that they're worth at least as much as the lines of starships you just mentioned (with the possible exception of the Riots)

3) or you've considered it and just don't find that fun

4) or you've considered it and find it non-applicable to the kinds of games you play.  Which isn't the same thing as them not being worth it in general.

Option 1 I guess.

I stand by my opinion that raids need a buff. The ability to take out an AI world given an unlimited quantity of a single kind of unit doesn't prove anything. Raid starships at the moment are only good for raiding (if you don't have a champion), and the mkIs will successfully raid most things. 4000k is an exorbitant price to raid more effectively with a tiny combat boost. 8000 is simply ridiculous to me.

I think reasonable prices for raids II/III would be 1000/3000, or even 1000/2000. Or, you could buff them back to their "powerhouse" status, while keeping the price (human version only. AI raids are an unholy terror already).

As for guard posts, as long as you can take out a mkIV with a cap of mkI triangle ships, they are nowhere near overpowered.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Keep in mind getting the higher marks isn't just the boost of having higher stats on that mark. It's the extra ships you get from it as well.

[chemical_art]

Part of the confusion is that the current MK increases, of armor, dps, and armor, apply well to most combat units, but not to raiders because they aren't general combat craft.

Never mind that to start with, they don't increase armor with rank, but for the role of raiding the increase in dps and health just don't accomplish as much as it does the more traditional units.

[TechSY730]

I'd like it if the AI raid starships kept the current "mirroring" of stats they have to human ones currently, same in every way but HP, where the AI versions have 1/2 the HP.

Thus, if we want to buff human ones without touching AI ones, reducing knowledge costs seems reasonable.

Or, if we want to break the symmetry, we could remove AI raid starships (or at least that name for them), and give them a new unit named something different (so there is no expectation of symmetry), but serves a similar role.

Similar argument for the fortresses. Either keep the symmetry (which would include not only things like just adjusting stats and multipliers, but also things like splitting the fortresses into several different variants), or make the AI units called something entirely different.

[Trandrin]

Dunno if thoughts are still being discussed on the guard posts elsewhere. I just started up a new game as well after a long hiatus, so I will put in a message here instead of starting a new thread. These guard posts are quite lethal. Watching them pick apart star ships or dozen fleet craft in a salvo or three is ugly. 

Are they going to be remaining at this high of a strength level? It is rather tedious to go system to system and having to divide my entire fleet each time and send the pieces at the post they counter. They are not so much a stronger fight as a more time consuming one.

Wish they had generally stronger base dps without such high multipliers or other things making them stronger instead of a hard counter to specific armor types. :/ .  Each fight with one acts kinda like attacking a fortress. Specific ships or heavy losses, just a little focused.

 How does one revert to older versions of updates? Losing all the changes after the post one would hurt a little. But I would rather not fight this kind of battle every time I enter a new system.

[Diazo]

Trandrin: Could we get a few more details?

One of the effects of actually making the guardposts dangerous is they now respect the 'higher Mark levels hurt' rule where they did not before.

If it was an equal mark fleet then you should have taken some losses, but nothing huge, but if there was a difference of a couple marks then yes, that guard post is supposed to hurt.

How much that hurt is supposed to be is a matter of opinion, the guard posts are still on the table for balancing across the next few patches.

D.

[TechSY730]

I think the effect of the 6x multipliers is that guard posts will "shred" some units, and then only sort of hurt others. While I agree with this idea, right now it seems to be taken too far, to the point of feeling like it requires "grindy micro". Maybe reduce the multipliers to 4x or 3x, and increase base DPS in return? That will still preserve the effect of rewarding strategically using your fleet, but not make it feel like the player must micro to stand a chance.

[keith.lamothe]

I think the effect of the 6x multipliers is that guard posts will "shred" some units, and then only sort of hurt others. While I agree with this idea, right now it seems to be taken too far, to the point of feeling like it requires "grindy micro". Maybe reduce the multipliers to 4x or 3x, and increase base DPS in return? That will still preserve the effect of rewarding strategically using your fleet, but not make it feel like the player must micro to stand a chance.

There's a design tension here.  Or, at least, a player-feedback tension.

Some players really want to have a reason to not just have attacking planet mean "move all my ships as one coherent unit from point to point until the enemy stops shooting back".  In other words, they want to have reasons not to "blob" at the tactical level. 
Having the guard posts have a relatively low base-dps and relatively high multipliers pleases them (I think).

Other players very specifically have the opposite desire: having to give orders to specific sub-parts of the attack fleet constitutes "micro" of an un-fun variety.
Having the guard posts have a relatively low base-dps and relatively high multipliers displeases them (I think).

I don't think I'm gonna win this battle

[TechSY730]

I think the effect of the 6x multipliers is that guard posts will "shred" some units, and then only sort of hurt others. While I agree with this idea, right now it seems to be taken too far, to the point of feeling like it requires "grindy micro". Maybe reduce the multipliers to 4x or 3x, and increase base DPS in return? That will still preserve the effect of rewarding strategically using your fleet, but not make it feel like the player must micro to stand a chance.

There's a design tension here.  Or, at least, a player-feedback tension.

Some players really want to have a reason to not just have attacking planet mean "move all my ships as one coherent unit from point to point until the enemy stops shooting back".  In other words, they want to have reasons not to "blob" at the tactical level. 
Having the guard posts have a relatively low base-dps and relatively high multipliers pleases them (I think).

Other players very specifically have the opposite desire: having to give orders to specific sub-parts of the attack fleet constitutes "micro" of an un-fun variety.
Having the guard posts have a relatively low base-dps and relatively high multipliers displeases them (I think).

I don't think I'm gonna win this battle

Why not make everyone equally unhappy and give them medium base DPS and medium multipliers.