What's with the new Guard Posts

[Winge]

I will say this:  I do like the improved guard posts, but I think that they were slightly overbuffed.  In one of my current games, the Dyson sphere was unable to do much against the AI defenders because one Mk 3 Needler Post was near the Sphere...it would 2-shot every single Gatling.  I'm thinking that's a little bit too much.  I could see dropping their dps by a little bit, but I wouldn't want to see them drop back to their pre-buff state.  As an alternative; make it so that the guard posts do not counter their counter.  Right now, for example, Laser posts have Heavy armor, but counter Polycrystal...changing that alone would give the player more options to counter the guard posts without nerfing them.

[chemical_art]

It depends on what you feel.

For such a specialized craft, the raid ships shouldn't have to get to III's to be considered viable. With III's with many other craft (spire craft in particular) if you can break the initial shell of the ai, their lances tear up the stationary targets great. However, unlike raids, spire are good for general combat as well.

[Hearteater]

I think the issue with Raids is the Mark I is so amazing, you don't really need to unlock the rest to get the job done.  Honestly, the only reason I've unlocked them in my game is they are my ONLY offense, and I'm using them to kill the buffed Guard Posts.  But for the most part, Mark Is do the job fine even with the new Guard Posts.  If some of the stuff we needed to raid was tougher, like say giving OMDs or Ions the Turret hull type (0.1 damage from Raid Starships) then higher Marks might be useful.  Of course that multiplier would probably need to get increased a little to maybe 0.25 or so.

[keith.lamothe]

I think the issue with Raids is the Mark I is so amazing, you don't really need to unlock the rest to get the job done.

For such a specialized craft, the raid ships shouldn't have to get to III's to be considered viable.

Raids only cost 8000 to get to mkIII (IV). You could unlock the entire zenith and spire lines for the same k cost. Riots only cost 1000 k more. I think raids need a buff, in fact, I never unlock them.

(hums tune) One (or more) of these things is not like the others.  One (or more) of these things does not belong...


More seriously, are you all actually saying the same thing and I'm just not getting it, or is there a really dramatic difference of opinion in the effectiveness of human raid starships?

[Mánagarmr]

I actually lol'd

Good! Because it wasn't a bash. It was a very friendly tease. I'm actually not bad at exploding myself. Ask Keith how "friendly" I get when faced with instadeath exploding barrels.

[keith.lamothe]

Good! Because it wasn't a bash. It was a very friendly tease.

Very friendly, just like all those exploding barrels a cape'd cat just left in your room.

[Cinth]

dramatic difference of opinion in the effectiveness of human raid starships?

This is what it reads like to me too.

[Diazo]

As someone who uses Raids occasionally but very rarely unlocks higher marks, I see it as a perception issue.

Raids are single target killers, they are not general combatants and do poorly if they do not have right-click direct targets.

So, do you ignore the AI ships and nuke the guard posts and command station and then tank the freed threat on your static defenses? Raids are great for this, but the guard posts changes are a giant nerf to this playstyle. This playstyle is also where raid IIs or IIIs got unlocked most likely as raids see heavy use playing like this. OMG! My raids are useless now!

Or, do you clean out the AI's fleet ship defenders as you clear out their guard posts using your fleet blob, only breaking out the raids for raiding high value targets such as a data center or raid engine? Raids are excellent at this also, but they do not target the buffed guard posts so their effectiveness is pretty similar to what they were before the guard post buffs. This playstyle will almost never unlock higher Mk raids as they are not one of the players primary attacks and the raids only get used a few times a game so that 4K knowledge is better spent on other things. Hmmm, my raids are not quite as good as they used to be, but they are still doing pretty good.


The other consideration to unlocking higher Mk raids is that if the target dies, anything beyond that is wasted. The number of situations where a cap of Raid Is would fail to destroy their target but higher mark Raids would succeed is very low. If there is something that would prevent Raid Is from killing the target (gravity, high level defenses, etc.), that same thing would probably prevent Raid II & IIIs from destroying the target.

D

[chemical_art]

Great points Diazo, it depends on how you use them to a great extent.

[Hearteater]

is there a really dramatic difference of opinion in the effectiveness of human raid starships?

Yes there is a wide range of opinions on Raid Starship effectiveness.  The fact, on the other hand, is they are amazing at what they are supposed to do.  They used to be able to do other stuff that was ridiculously overpowered.  So now they are only somewhat overpowered, but it is possible they need to be this good because they give players a lot more options for handling tricky situations.

A lot of this stems from the fact that what makes the Raid SS so good at its job is their Speed, Radar Dampening, Force Field immunity, Tractor Beam immunity, and ED immunity.  Notice that none of those improve with Mark.  The Mark I has them all.  So all you really get from extra Marks is more durability.  Damage isn't that important because normal raid target are killed in 1-2 shots.  Durability isn't actually useful because of Radar Dampening (which, notice, doesn't actually get any better with Marks).  New Guard Posts make durability a slightly bigger issue, but often you can micro around a lot of Guard Post issues with Raids' speed.

In short, Mark I is everything you need.  Mark II gets combat stats (hp+dmg) but Raids aren't combat ships.  Quick brainstorm: Pull Radar Dampening off the Mark I, add Cloaking to the Mark III, give the Mark IV Missile immunity and the Mark V Cloak Boosting x2.  Then you get utility which might actually be useful to upgrade in to.

[Cinth]

Or let radar dampening run 9K at MK I to 7k at MK V (500 increment)?

I think cloaking and missile immunity would be very bad for players if the AI Raids had that 

[Hearteater]

Missile immunity wouldn't be terrible for players, since Sniper/Spider turrets are still the ideal Raid SS killer.  The Cloaking would be rough, but you almost always need to be handling cloaked AI ships anyway so you should have some form of Tachyon coverage.  However, a better "cloak" for Raid SS would be a Cloak that was only active for 5 seconds after entering a system.  That gives them the ability to skip past defenses, but if they do you never need to worry about them sneaking up to your CS and popping it 10 minutes later.

[keith.lamothe]

I think cloaking and missile immunity would be very bad for players if the AI Raids had that 

Bwahahaha

I would like to give it cloaking, but yea, that would amuse me more than it would amuse y'all.

[Cinth]

So we make it immune to the only triangle ship that has a bonus against it. 

And I still think cloak is a bad idea.  Raids can cover a ton of ground in 5 seconds and maybe even completely bypass systems without detection.  Think Exo and 40 raids (I've seen it happen).  No way you could hope to kill all of them and keep detection up before they completely bypass your lines.

Raids have speed.  That gets them past defenses.

Also, I remember some complaining about Eye-bots some time ago.  A unit with cloaking, cloaking booster and is missile proof.

[vlkm]

As someone who uses Raids occasionally but very rarely unlocks higher marks, I see it as a perception issue.

Raids are single target killers, they are not general combatants and do poorly if they do not have right-click direct targets.

So, do you ignore the AI ships and nuke the guard posts and command station and then tank the freed threat on your static defenses? Raids are great for this, but the guard posts changes are a giant nerf to this playstyle. This playstyle is also where raid IIs or IIIs got unlocked most likely as raids see heavy use playing like this. OMG! My raids are useless now!

Or, do you clean out the AI's fleet ship defenders as you clear out their guard posts using your fleet blob, only breaking out the raids for raiding high value targets such as a data center or raid engine? Raids are excellent at this also, but they do not target the buffed guard posts so their effectiveness is pretty similar to what they were before the guard post buffs. This playstyle will almost never unlock higher Mk raids as they are not one of the players primary attacks and the raids only get used a few times a game so that 4K knowledge is better spent on other things. Hmmm, my raids are not quite as good as they used to be, but they are still doing pretty good.


The other consideration to unlocking higher Mk raids is that if the target dies, anything beyond that is wasted. The number of situations where a cap of Raid Is would fail to destroy their target but higher mark Raids would succeed is very low. If there is something that would prevent Raid Is from killing the target (gravity, high level defenses, etc.), that same thing would probably prevent Raid II & IIIs from destroying the target.

D

Didn't see this thread beofre. I think what is said above is spot on. Sadly I belong to the first category. Its also another example of how I feel balancing things out ruins strategic and tactical approaches to the game (you can always set diff up if the game is too easy with "overpowered" units however you can't do the opposite to make raids more useful again).