What parts of the tooltips do we NEED?

[RCIX]

So in the tooltips improvement thread, we arrived at the idea of having a smaller tooltip with vital information and then foldouts of somekind that display the rest. Now, my opinion is that we need an AI War "Civilopedia" badly. If one was added, the easy/smart solution is just crunch the tooltip down into what is most used, then offer a quick way to consult a full stats page (which would include cool stuff like counter tips and links to pages on all the mechanics a ship uses ^^) Thus, please vote above on what you really think must remain in the hover tooltips.

To be clear, there would be a mode to offer all of the information currently present, but this is mainly for the stuff that makes up the core of the tooltip; so there can be a more manageable target for creating nice tooltips before we dive headfirst into a bunch of brick walls.

[kasnavada]

All. Tooltips are fine for me.

If it's needed to go in another menu to get what is basically basic informations about the units, the game would lose a great amount of user-frendliness. It's kind of the thing I find very bad about the civilisation series or AWWV, that I HAVE to get into menus and look for stuff for what should be available on the screen from the start.

The RTS games praised for their interface have as much information as possible on the main screen (supreme commander & starcraft come to mind, especially the later since as far as I remember, there is no subscreen at all) and AI war should follow that trend.

[Martyn van Buren]

Yeah I think I'd prefer an option between the current setup and something mammoth that includes everything if we can't make something that elegantly includes all the current information.  I absolutely do think that something like your mockup is much more readable and would help people who are getting into the game, but I also regularly consult the tooltips for all of that information (except build costs when not using a build screen) and once you're used to reading them you can use the current ones very quickly.

EDIT: It occurs to me that AI War is probably doomed to have an inordinately large or complex tooltip because it has so many ships and mechanics that even experienced players who know how the system works very well (I don't include myself in that category) seem to consult them regularly.

[Lancefighter]

I think that basically everything except fluff is valid.

One minor caveat in that I do not believe resource costs are useful, except in the context of inside build menus.

[RCIX]

All. Tooltips are fine for me.

If it's needed to go in another menu to get what is basically basic informations about the units, the game would lose a great amount of user-frendliness. It's kind of the thing I find very bad about the civilisation series or AWWV, that I HAVE to get into menus and look for stuff for what should be available on the screen from the start.

Pick a long tooltip from something (IDK, maybe one of the more interesting starships or any of the fun structures). Now ask whoever you can find offhand that doesn't play AI War to locate a specific ability. Then the base speed entry. How long does it take them?

The RTS games praised for their interface have as much information as possible on the main screen (supreme commander & starcraft come to mind, especially the later since as far as I remember, there is no subscreen at all) and AI war should follow that trend.

The ones you list get by with a lot less info, and they do a heck of a lot better at presenting that info than "wall of text tooltip" Also, AI war also is closer in spirit to Civ than "normal RTSes", mainly in pace but in relative scope as well.

EDIT: It occurs to me that AI War is probably doomed to have an inordinately large or complex tooltip because it has so many ships and mechanics that even experienced players who know how the system works very well (I don't include myself in that category) seem to consult them regularly.

I honestly think that for new players (and even ones who aren't new but still learning <is me), a trimmed tooltip would work better. There can be an option to turn on wall of tooltips, but it gets really messy really fast when trying to structure it all. With a list of what must be included in a trimmed tooltip, we can at least have a nice simple tooltip system and then offer the wall of text ones until/if a better structure that doesn't eat the whole screen is figured out.

I think that basically everything except fluff is valid.

One minor caveat in that I do not believe resource costs are useful, except in the context of inside build menus.

Put it this way. You're a new player, running your first game against 3/3 random easier AIs with a small handicap and most of the confusing stuff turned off (or heck, just the tutorials). What information do you NEED on hand constantly, so the rest can be present in the civilopedia until you're ready to look at a wall of text whenever you hover over a ship?

[Martyn van Buren]

I dunno, the thing is that multipliers are a really central part of the game, which means you also need hull types and immunities.  Just knowing base damage without them is not all that useful and not a very good guide to how you should approach attacking things.  And even when you're on 5/5 it's pretty damn helpful to know that bombers are all-but-immune to fortress fire and that raid starships shoot through forcefields.  So that right there is the bulk of the tooltip.  The rest is either the basic combat stats --- attack, armor, health --- or build stuff.  I think building information and energy could be left out (although I'd like energy there in the expanded version for IREs), and max health could be left out as long as there was current health and a percentage, but that isn't cutting much.

[Draco18s]

I think that basically everything except fluff is valid.

What about the plasma siege's ability to do splash damage?  That's only listed in the fluff.

That said, I didn't check Resources or Description, as I use those only rarely (Resources only when building and Description for unlisted abilities on some units to remind myself).

[doctorfrog]

I picked all.

When it comes to new players, I don't expect they're all like this, but when I start a moderately complex game, I don't expect to understand everything on the screen. I just use the stuff I recognize and eventually start piecing out the rest over time.

In fact, I get really annoyed when something is obscured from me, like with the Microsoft Office ribbon, or maybe the Windows 8 interface once that becomes avoidable.

I like the idea of a Civopedia, and would have found it more useful as a catalog of concepts, like Radar Dampening and reinforcement. For the most part, in an RTS, I want to pull the majority of stats from hovering over my units, not pause and page through a reference.

[Draco18s]

For the most part, in an RTS, I want to pull the majority of stats from hovering over my units, not pause and page through a reference.

This.

Even locating a unit in the sidebar in order to hover over it is move difficult than pausing and simply hovering over the unit itself (paused, due to the speed at which some of them move).

[LaughingThesaurus]

Maybe there can just be two types of tooltips, one for the more advanced players, and one that's just beginner friendly... but otherwise, almost all of the information shown is relevant. I want to know all of the stuff that is shown on tooltips, except for range, which I press the display range button to see. But, there's likely a point where the AI is so easy, so low level, that you don't need to see much information at all.

But I'm with doctorfrog regardless. I'm still not near great at AI War (although I should really be getting a 7/7 game going at some point) but when I first started messing around, I only used relevant information. If I didn't know what radar dampening did, I just sorta ignored it and looked it up later. For the longest time, I didn't even understand the exact cloak mechanics, and didn't know what could possibly be scary enough to "insta-kill" my ships. But, hell, I love it when a game is complex and has me sort of learn by doing. I hate things getting simplified, but I understand people might end up needing it. Therefore, put only a couple relevant categories of stats in each tooltip with some kind of 'simplified tooltips' button. Maybe even have a key to hold down to 'show detailed tooltips' or something.
If options are out of the question, keep it all.

[TechSY730]

Can you be a little more specific? Which tooltips? The "on the field" hover tooltips? The research/unlock tooltips? The build icons tooltips? The side bar tooltips? The reference tab tooltips?

Different situations for the ship tooltips have differing amounts of relevance for each part.

The point about the abilities described only in the "fluff" text is a good one. It should be that all of the relevant stuff the ship can do can be gleaned from the abilities list (or immunities list or whatever), though the fluff text can go into the details if you want them (like of there is damage decay with the AOE, exact calculations, etc)

[kasnavada]

All. Tooltips are fine for me.
If it's needed to go in another menu to get what is basically basic informations about the units, the game would lose a great amount of user-frendliness. It's kind of the thing I find very bad about the civilisation series or AWWV, that I HAVE to get into menus and look for stuff for what should be available on the screen from the start.

Pick a long tooltip from something (IDK, maybe one of the more interesting starships or any of the fun structures). Now ask whoever you can find offhand that doesn't play AI War to locate a specific ability. Then the base speed entry. How long does it take them?

This is going to be EVEN WORSE (capital letter for STATING THE OBVIOUS) if you needed to go on a civpedia or whatever, because it's been removed from the "main screen tooltip". It's also the point of the "fluff" text some people want to remove. It's the tiny resume the guy offhand will read and tell me "cool, this bomber can kill fortresses and those shields". Some of those could use rework, but on the whole, they are pretty good at telling what units do.

The RTS games praised for their interface have as much information as possible on the main screen (supreme commander & starcraft come to mind, especially the later since as far as I remember, there is no subscreen at all) and AI war should follow that trend.

The ones you list get by with a lot less info, and they do a heck of a lot better at presenting that info than "wall of text tooltip" Also, AI war also is closer in spirit to Civ than "normal RTSes", mainly in pace but in relative scope as well.

Well, I did say that I thought that Civ is badly designed in term of UI (not that they have much of a choice given the massive content). But, if you actually play the games series, you would notice that they remove as much as possible from the multiple screens in the game to put on the main screen as versions go up (including by dumbing the game down, but that's another problem). Even so, it proves my point. Even the Civ series puts as much info as possible on the main screen, which is exactly why removing info from the tooltip is wrong, since it currently fits.

Therefore as much information as possible needs to be on tooltips, available whenever needed. However, they could use some reworking to make basic stuff more obvious to beginners, I won't dispute that, but I do not see how.

EDIT : quotes... & minor clarifications (italics).

[Martyn van Buren]

Yeah actually on reflection the fluff text definitely has to be there for new player experience.  At least when I'm new to this sort of game I do peer at all the stats and gradually try to figure out what they mean but mainly I use things the way the fluff text tells me.

[Lancefighter]

If I was a new player, playnig against 3/3 easier ais, I honestly wouldnt know how to read any of the information beyond 'ohh, attack? lets get a higher attack value', making the ship statistics the only useful set. (again, with potentially build costs in the proper context.)

(additionally, my first game was against a 7/7 pair of random moderates. Ok, well, I played the tutorial completely through)

Civ's tooltips honestly have their own tooltips in them to help you out - When you select a spearman, the info card pops up with more tooltips (like +bonus against mounted units, or whatever rank buffs it has) I really dont think you could apply this theory to aiwar..

And back to aiwar, as an experienced player I *need* basically no tooltips, with the main important bit being ship statistics (damage/speed/hp/hull/etc), multiplayers, and to a lesser extent, immunities. I am sure we could throw in a 'advanced tooltips' hotkey, to give you even more stupid amounts of information (possibly even always showing extended tooltips while paused?)

As for the dreadnaughts doing splash damage, that is something that probably should be mentioned in the attack info (similarly to engine damage, or ire damage), for example below.

Attack: 1,200,000 Splash Damage: 300,000 Splash range: 2,000

[Martyn van Buren]

Actually, thinking about it, the times when I use the tooltips intensively are almost always in figuring out how to kill large ships and structures, in which case I'm probably going to focus fire at least part of my fleet on it.  So I'm not sure if the combat simlator they use to generate the information in the ships reference screen can handle mixed groups of ships, but if mousing over an AI unit that's starship-sized or larger gave me time-to-kill and win probabality for my selected ships against that unit, I would feel a lot better about less info in the tooltips.  Against fleet ships I tend to use the ship type reference if anything, so being able to get from an AI unit to its "ships I can build" page in a single click would more than replace the utility of the current tooltips for me.